Then why would youstill try to be a good person.

I mean, once you dye theres nothing so you might as welll try to brake the laws and everything, as there is no after judgement, and if you're clever you won't get caught.

You are going to talk about your morals now fro a very long time aren't you..

But where did your morals come from?

You're going to say your parents, so you're not influenced by religion.

Where did there morals come from?

Either there parents or religion.

So, if you look back far enough, everyones basic morals are guided by religion.

So, you, infact, are religous.

[This message has been edited by owned (edited 11-11-2006).]

All morals come from man, for if all religions are manmade then all the morals of religion are manmade.

As for where morals come from? Simple, man’s need to be with man for man is a social creature and people wouldn’t exactly get along very well if they were all stealing, raping, and murdering.

P.S Atheism simply means not believing there is a God. There is religious atheists, such as Buddhists for example. Your thread fails.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-11-2006).]

Personally, I am christian. Buts lets look at your view.

If religion is bs, then any morals could be put in. If I went to some of the hunmans when civilisations and religions combined, and preached murder and mayhem, you wouldstill follow it, because the"Gods" commanded it.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

If religion is bs, then any morals could be put in. If I went to some of the hunmans when civilisations and religions combined, and preached murder and mayhem, you wouldstill follow it, because the"Gods" commanded it.

Religious people have followed preachers of murder and mayhem. Look at the Muslim suicide bombers, look at the inquisitions, look at the crusades.

That is the very problem with religion. The preaching of lies, such as God and false history, and the encouragement of blind acceptance and following of morals that might not be very moral at all.

In my opinion, morals should be made as a guidance to avoid pain and live in harmony with others for man is a social being. And, in my opinion, morals should be made based on reason, consensus, and thought on the consequences of actions.





[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Originally posted by owned:

If religion is bs, then any morals could be put in. If I went to some of the hunmans when civilisations and religions combined, and preached murder and mayhem, you wouldstill follow it, because the"Gods" commanded it.

Religious people have followed preachers of murder and mayhem. Look at the Muslim suicide bombers, look at the inquisitions, look at the crusades.

That is the very problem with religion. The preaching of lies, such as God and false history, and the encouragement of blind acceptance and following of morals that might not be very moral at all.

In my opinion, morals should be made as a guidance to avoid pain and live in harmony with others for man is a social being. And, in my opinion, morals should be made based on reason, consensus, and thought on the consequences of actions.





How do you KNOW relions are false?

You don't. I beleive they are, but I don't actually KNOW, neither do you?

quote:Originally posted by owned:

How do you KNOW relions are false?

You don't. I beleive they are, but I don't actually KNOW, neither do you?



I assume they are false until I see evidence that states otherwise. The people who claim religion is true must provide evidence for their statements, and until they do, I choose not to believe. Not believing in something because there is no evidence is logical, believing in something in spite of lack of evidence is illogical.

I have yet to see any evidence that hasn't crumbled to pieces.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-11-2006).]

owned has been owned, lock thread

+1 Raw Power

Atheist morals come from the same place your morals come form, the social contract. A agreement that you you play nice if most every one else plays nice.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

How do you KNOW relions are false?

You don't. I beleive they are, but I don't actually KNOW, neither do you?



I don't know they are false. In the same sense I don't know that Santa Clause, Esterbunny, Flying Speggittie Monster, invisible pink unicorns, and etc are not real. There is no evidence so I presume them to be false until other wise

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -Carl Sagan

quote:Originally posted by owned:

How do you KNOW relions are false?

You don't. I beleive they are, but I don't actually KNOW, neither do you?



First off, I say good job to Raw.

Now think of it this way. I can say that there is a weightless invisible object that is floating right between my hands and this object if you havent guess defies all the laws of physics. You have no proof that there is and that there isnt. But would it be logical to assume that there is in fact an invisible weightless object floating in the air? Of course not.

Ok, hands up.

I was owned by raw power.

However, thats what I like about this forum, people will argue logically, and although I "lost" I still expanded my knowledge of someone else view, and therefore can make better decisions.

Well done http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

lol someone in my god admitted defeat, wtf?

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

lol someone in my god admitted defeat, wtf?

It was not an argument about my religion. Therefore I could very well accept defeat.

This is precisely the reason that I do not have morals. I don't steal from people I know so I can keep them as friends. All my actions are completely selfish.

quote:Originally posted by psychedelicious:

This is precisely the reason that I do not have morals. I don't steal from people I know so I can keep them as friends. All my actions are completely selfish.

You can be selfish and have morals. Look up "ethical egoism".

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Then why would youstill try to be a good person.

I mean, once you dye theres nothing so you might as welll try to brake the laws and everything, as there is no after judgement, and if you're clever you won't get caught.

You are going to talk about your morals now fro a very long time aren't you..

But where did your morals come from?

You're going to say your parents, so you're not influenced by religion.

Where did there morals come from?

Either there parents or religion.

So, if you look back far enough, everyones basic morals are guided by religion.

So, you, infact, are religous.



My morals came from neither my parents nor religion. I decided upon them by examining the world and human existance in general, and deciding what should be called "good" and what should not. Then I apply them by trying to make sure I continue to work toward doing good.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Ok, hands up.

I was owned by raw power.

However, thats what I like about this forum, people will argue logically, and although I "lost" I still expanded my knowledge of someone else view, and therefore can make better decisions.

Well done http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

+1 to you too owned, way to be more open minded.

I'm glad I live in a christian country.

Otherwise there would be people getting

raped and murdered like every day.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

I'm glad I live in a christian country.

Otherwise there would be people getting

raped and murdered like every day.

Uhm... right.

Why don't "Christians" commit crimes? All you have to do is say you're sorry the next day and it's fine.

If you're sorry, god forgives you.

Athiests on the other hand realise that THEY are responsible for their actions, and the results, and that there isn't going to be someone there at the end of the day to pat them on the butt and tell them it's alright.

I was watching my nephew, who is almost three, and his neighbor who is a little younger play in the backyard recently. My nephew took away a toy truck from his neighbor and pushed him to the ground. As the other kid starting crying, my nephew stopped playing with the truck and went and gave it back to him and patted him on the head. No one taught him to do this or taught him what any holy books said. He felt empathy towards the little boy. That can't be taught. Following the golden rule is inherent in most of us.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Religious people have followed preachers of murder and mayhem. Look at the Muslim suicide bombers, look at the inquisitions, look at the crusades.

Those preachers were/are not following the religion they preach. Jesus did not teach violence; man twisted his teachings in order to incite violence. What you have is not the fault of religion its self, but the fault of evil men. If they did not have religion to rally people to violence they would use something else.

Animals don't have religion yet they continue to reproduce.

Every species has a built-in order of survival instincts. Why do mother cats refuse to feed the runt of the litter? Because the runt will more than likely die, wasting the effort the mother put into raising it.

Atheists don't kill and steal because they have the will to live, like any other person. Humans didn't go through eons of evolution destroying their own species. Everything anybody does is an effort for them and their species to survive.

sounds to me like you have down syndrome owned

Shut up, troll.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

I was watching my nephew, who is almost three, and his neighbor who is a little younger play in the backyard recently. My nephew took away a toy truck from his neighbor and pushed him to the ground. As the other kid starting crying, my nephew stopped playing with the truck and went and gave it back to him and patted him on the head. No one taught him to do this or taught him what any holy books said. He felt empathy towards the little boy. That can't be taught. Following the golden rule is inherent in most of us.

Maybe, but he is three. His basic morals are already developed. Maybe his mum saw him do that before, nad said thats not very nice is it.....?

Its amazing how much kids pick up.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Maybe, but he is three. His basic morals are already developed. Maybe his mum saw him do that before, nad said thats not very nice is it.....?

Its amazing how much kids pick up.

You don't really believe that, do you? He took the truck and pushed the kid to the ground. At that moment he didn't care much for what was nice. When he saw the kid crying, he became aware that this was pain he had caused and natural feelings of guilt came over him.

You said that you were owned in this thread, but what did you mean by that? It seems that you still believe that golden rule type morals aren't ingrained in us.

If you've ever watched an animal program on chimpanzee societies, one of the focuses is usually how there are rules in that society and that those who steal or murder are thrown out of the group. Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, is the norm in all chimp societies, never the other way around.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

I'm glad I live in a christian country.

Otherwise there would be people getting

raped and murdered like every day.

And where and what do you mean by this low crime Christian country?

Certianly not the US with about 44 murders a day (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/totalstab.htm)

and about 11 rapes an hour (http://www.zerr.org/family/index.php?topic=255.msg382;topicseen)

Even calling the US a Christian nation is on shakey ground. ( Depend how you look at it.





[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 11-12-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Then why would youstill try to be a good person.

I mean, once you dye theres nothing so you might as welll try to brake the laws and everything, as there is no after judgement, and if you're clever you won't get caught.

You are going to talk about your morals now fro a very long time aren't you..

But where did your morals come from?

You're going to say your parents, so you're not influenced by religion.

Where did there morals come from?

Either there parents or religion.

So, if you look back far enough, everyones basic morals are guided by religion.

So, you, infact, are religous.



Learn to spell before you attempt to pose any form of question in sincerity.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

I'm glad I live in a christian country.

Otherwise there would be people getting

raped and murdered like every day.

People are getting raped and murdered every day.

Social Contract Theory.

Our morals come from the need to survive.

You see, man is greedy and self serving. However, we also tend to seek peace BECAUSE of that self serving nature - no one wants to endanger his own life. Hence, he says "Don't kill me, I won't kill you."

Entering into the society by method of immigration or birth just signs you into that social contract, mutual transference of certain rights (the right to end anothers' life, for example).

The same applies for pretty much everything else. No one wants to be raped (well...except for those really kinky few, ;) ), so likewise we agree that we WON'T rape.

Mutual transference.

That said, I'm agnostic, so whether or not there is something greater than myself is up in the air. However, even if God created man, man created religion. Religious morals still spring from man, not a higher being.

Owned? Owned.

Q and Shizm, ever heard of sarcasm?

quote:Originally posted by xray:

Q and Shizm, ever heard of sarcasm?

It never goes over well on the Internets. As far as I know he could of/is a fundie or something.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Then why would youstill try to be a good person.

I mean, once you dye theres nothing so you might as welll try to brake the laws and everything, as there is no after judgement, and if you're clever you won't get caught.

You are going to talk about your morals now fro a very long time aren't you..

But where did your morals come from?

You're going to say your parents, so you're not influenced by religion.

Where did there morals come from?

Either there parents or religion.

So, if you look back far enough, everyones basic morals are guided by religion.

So, you, infact, are religous.



I don't understand your awkward conceptions, that I HAVE TO HAVE a religion to be a good person. Jesus was not enlightened. What he preaches was the same basic philosophy, basically INHERENT in humans. Do not kill. Do not steal. Wow, he was fucking brilliant. To tell you the truth, I found Aristotle to be of more thought provoking. All that religious shit is simple, childish philosophy being reiterated through a mild alteration, such as Jesus proclaiming to be God's Son. It's like a brand name. I do not need religion to know that it is wrong to kill people and steal things. And no, I did not get my morals from my parent- I know this is a strange concept for your dumbass, but they came from ME.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

I'm glad I live in a Christian country.

Otherwise there would be people getting

raped and murdered like every day.

People do get raped and murdered everyday. And even though one of you Christian's main thing is gluttony being bad, we are THE FATTEST DUMBEST FUCKING INTOLERANT BACKWARDS ASS COUNTRY ON THE PLANET EARTH.

quote:Originally posted by Shizm:

People are getting raped and murdered every day.

Perhaps it's not as obvious if you haven't seen Viraljimmy's other posts, but it seemed pretty plain to me that he's being sarcastic. I thought it was rather clever.

Just FYI, jimmy is not a Christian. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Innoculation Scars:

People do get raped and murdered everyday. And even though one of you Christian's main thing is gluttony being bad, we are THE FATTEST DUMBEST FUCKING INTOLERANT BACKWARDS ASS COUNTRY ON THE PLANET EARTH.

Sarcasm, can ya' dig it?

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Then why would youstill try to be a good person.

I mean, once you dye theres nothing so you might as welll try to brake the laws and everything, as there is no after judgement, and if you're clever you won't get caught.

You are going to talk about your morals now fro a very long time aren't you..

But where did your morals come from?

You're going to say your parents, so you're not influenced by religion.

Where did there morals come from?

Either there parents or religion.

So, if you look back far enough, everyones basic morals are guided by religion.

So, you, infact, are religous.



Acting morally because it is good

>

acting morally for a golden shower reward in heaven

Religious morality is somewhat disgusting.

You know, I once asked this co-worker of mine who would be in a better situation in the afterlife: a Christian who was a murderer, or an Atheist who was an all-round good person? Her answer was, of course, the Christian murderer. Because, since he is a Christian, he can confess his sins and be forgiven by God, but the Atheist, since he has no faith, is doomed and will not be allowed in Heaven. Wasn't word for word, but it went something like that.

I think that's fucked up.

quote:Originally posted by Luther:

You know, I once asked this co-worker of mine who would be in a better situation in the afterlife: a Christian who was a murderer, or an Atheist who was an all-round good person? Her answer was, of course, the Christian murderer. Because, since he is a Christian, he can confess his sins and be forgiven by God, but the Atheist, since he has no faith, is doomed and will not be allowed in Heaven. Wasn't word for word, but it went something like that.

I think that's fucked up.



I think that person is not a human and deserves less respect then a dog or a dog's shit.

Because they're living for life not death. They're not going about doing things that they don't want to genuinely do in hopes of getting a prize once they're dead.

Cheers,

Lost

With the instinctual thing...

People do what they think is "good" because it feels good to do it. People avoid doing what is "bad" because it feels bad to do it. Some people have different ideas of what is good and bad, and some people do bad things because it doesn't feel bad to them.

Morality is instinctual, but it is also obtained from the environment/culture a person lives in. This tendency itself is instinctual, in that it allows the person to fit in with the society. And as the others have said, it holds the society together.

Usually.

What a pathetic existence someone must have to only do good things because of the belief that something is watching them.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

What a pathetic existence someone must have to only do good things because of the belief that something is watching them.

If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. - Albert Einstein

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Then why would youstill try to be a good person.

I mean, once you dye theres nothing so you might as welll try to brake the laws and everything, as there is no after judgement, and if you're clever you won't get caught.

You are going to talk about your morals now fro a very long time aren't you..

But where did your morals come from?

You're going to say your parents, so you're not influenced by religion.

Where did there morals come from?

Either there parents or religion.

So, if you look back far enough, everyones basic morals are guided by religion.

So, you, infact, are religous.



Its called RESPECT. Something to few religious people have.

quote:Originally posted by chubbyman25:

Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Religious people have followed preachers of murder and mayhem. Look at the Muslim suicide bombers, look at the inquisitions, look at the crusades.

Those preachers were/are not following the religion they preach. Jesus did not teach violence; man twisted his teachings in order to incite violence. What you have is not the fault of religion its self, but the fault of evil men. If they did not have religion to rally people to violence they would use something else.

OK, it's more an attack against blind, irrational faith than religion, which is merely something that generally relies heavily on that.

You can be atheist, yet still believe in afterlives, reincarnation, heavens, demons, spiritual guides, etc...all that you can't believe in, as an atheist, is a god or gods. Get your definitions straight, douche bag.

Nihilism: Taken from Latin nihilo, meaning 'nothing'. This philosophy often results from the lack of an objective truth. This, somehow, is rather common in heavy left brainers; speculation exists as to it being a sort of 'melt-down': several types of nihilism exist; some are symptoms are mental disorders.

Solipsism: Taken from Latin solus, meaning 'alone'. This philosophy often results from narcissistic self-absorption. It is common in those who are heavy right brain.

Agnostic: Taken from Greek gnosis, meaning knowledge; the prefix 'a' meaning 'without'. This philosophy often results from biological equilibrium between the left and right hemispheres of the brain.

Theistic: Taken from Greek theos, meaning 'god'. This is common in right brain dominants.

Atheistic: Taken from Greek atheos, meaning 'godless'. This is common in left brain dominants.

Atheists can believe in anything but a god; a theist has to believe in some sort of a god; an agnostic can believe whatever they want to (but it isn't knowledge unless it's material experience); a solipsist can believe in anything, but knows only the self to be truly real; and the nihilist can deny even their own existence...oddly enough, the only mutually exclusive philosophies are atheism and theism.

Me? I choose agnostic solipsist nihilistic pantheism: I don't know shit but myself, which may not be real, and that which is real is worthy of being God, and all other illusions are a product of this reality, thus manifestations of this God.

But do I believe some being created the world in 6 days, rested on the 7th, put a nation of people through trials and tribulations to later be saved by the physical incarnation of the very omnipotent being who put them into purgatory, saved through crucifixion dying and going to Hell for three days to save the prior damned and then being ressurected, raising to Heaven in order to come back at some unnamed later day as a spirit to bring the End Times upon us?

No...I don't. But I do trust God...and if that's what did happen; cool. It's sure one helluva story for the kids. LOL

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Morality is instinctual, but it is also obtained from the environment/culture a person lives in. This tendency itself is instinctual, in that it allows the person to fit in with the society.

Good answer.

owned, go read rousseau's social contract, that'll answer your question as to where morals come from. so will most social philosophy, rousseau's just quite introductory.

i'd just be repeating raw power's first few comments if im to say anything.

"How do you KNOW relions are false?

You don't. I beleive they are, but I don't actually KNOW, neither do you?"

i dont know that religions are false, but im sure you must. because you're a christan, the commandments say that there is only one god, so there is no allah, or buddha or 8 handed indian dude. so now you know that all those religions are false. now what makes that particular christian commandments more convincing than allah's claim to fame?

to humour this thought a little bit, if god handed morals down to us, how evil of him to only give it to christians. them japs must be pretty pissed that they've been jumping on swords coz this god didnt tell'em its immoral to suicide.

quote:you're a christan

No I'm not, or weren't you referring to me?

no im replying directly to the initial post

page 2

quote:Originally posted by Luther:

You know, I once asked this co-worker of mine who would be in a better situation in the afterlife: a Christian who was a murderer, or an Atheist who was an all-round good person? Her answer was, of course, the Christian murderer. Because, since he is a Christian, he can confess his sins and be forgiven by God, but the Atheist, since he has no faith, is doomed and will not be allowed in Heaven. Wasn't word for word, but it went something like that.

I think that's fucked up.



This is because, dsespite the all round goodness, the atheist commited sins like any other person.

However, they did not seek forgiveness.

But.... for good atheists this is teh uplifting part.

After a thousand years of peace, there will be a general judgement, where they can repent and go to heaven.

So, Christian murderer=first afterlife

atheist, gets chance.

All you guys that said morals are inherent/instinctual in a person, I disagree. Morals are determined by what is socially acceptable. Take the Romans for example, In the Coliseum (SP?) Hundreds, if not Thousands are people were killed for the amusement of others. In the ancient days of the early Hebrews, one could be put to death, for cursing his father, or having sex with a menstruating woman. Gay people and adulterers were killed with no tolerance, usually on the spot. Less than 150 years ago, blacks were treated as sub human, and beaten without mercy. All of these examples grossly deviate from modern western morals, however they were deemed socially acceptable at the time.

Not many Germans that knew about the holocaust had a problem with it, look how the country handles anti-Semitism today.

Instinct has nothing to do with a persons morals, and religion has a small bit of influence compared to the environment in which a person grows up. It is my firm belief that the basis for a persons morals are almost entirely the result of the environment and society in which he is raised.

This is merely addressing the average person in a society; I realize that there are people who deviate from the morals of the society in which they were raised. However the strong majority of the people that do tend to be criminals, who seem not to care much for morals in the first place.

quote:Originally posted by Kage:

Last Chancer?

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Then why would youstill try to be a good person.

I mean, once you dye theres nothing so you might as welll try to brake the laws and everything, as there is no after judgement, and if you're clever you won't get caught.

You are going to talk about your morals now fro a very long time aren't you..

But where did your morals come from?

You're going to say your parents, so you're not influenced by religion.

Where did there morals come from?

Either there parents or religion.

So, if you look back far enough, everyones basic morals are guided by religion.

So, you, infact, are religous.



So you think morals come from religion?

Go read the bible, people dont take their morals from religion, they cherry pick between the good and the bad int he bible such as the golden rule = good, however to do this cherry picking you have to have some sort if internal morality available to everyone.

Morality comes from alot of things but not religion.

Go read richard dawkins the god delusion section on morality.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Then why would youstill try to be a good person.

I mean, once you dye theres nothing so you might as welll try to brake the laws and everything, as there is no after judgement, and if you're clever you won't get caught.

You are going to talk about your morals now fro a very long time aren't you..

But where did your morals come from?

You're going to say your parents, so you're not influenced by religion.

Where did there morals come from?

Either there parents or religion.

So, if you look back far enough, everyones basic morals are guided by religion.

So, you, infact, are religous.



You assume evolution hasn't designed us with inbuilt morals that in general increase the probability of the genes you and your relatives share surviving.

yep. exactly ninja_turtle

I like how richard dawkins puts it (from memory, not an exact quote)--

"just like the genes of a bird tell it to 'be nice to any squalking things in your nest', mankind comes from small tribes where everyone was closely related, and as most people are your relatives the rule given by genetics is something along the lines of 'be nice to everyone you meet'"

and how do you tell one tribe from another, so you can tell your competetors from your family? .. the words they speak, and the stories they tell. This gives rise to a genetic tendancy to embrace the ideas of your own tribe no matter how fucking stupid they are, from the point of view of genetics, being a popular person is more important than a free thinker.

So the majority of people need a strong tribal belief and will believe anything they're told, this gives a nice medium for religion to spread.

Religions are just selfish memes which spread by circumventing weaknesses in human brains, the reason they promote altruism is because they live inside human brains, the reason they cause wars is because they exploit (and probably helped evolve) our tendancy to fight people who don't share the same ideas as us.

Bottom line is jesus is just a meme like goatse, tubgirl or lemonparty. fun to share, but not the best place to get your morals from.

Along the lines of what bitplane said.

I have a human evolution textbook with a whole chapter on altruistic behavior and how we can observe the gene-favoring engineered behaviors in many species.