Atheists believe in not believing if you really don't believe in anything #1 you don't brag and number 2 u say nothing when asked.

quote:Originally posted by L33tz:

Atheists believe in not believing if you really don't believe in anything #1 you don't brag and number 2 u say nothing when asked.

Idiot. I'm an atheist. I don't think there's an invisible sky wizard who watches over us. The same way I don't think there's a pink unicorn in my room watching me masturbate.

The difference? I don't have blind faith that I'm right. It's based on a reasoned search of evidence, and would change should suffecient contradictory evidence emerge.

quote:Originally posted by L33tz:

Atheists believe in not believing if you really don't believe in anything #1 you don't brag and number 2 u say nothing when asked.

A religion is defined by taking a leap of faith. Atheism has no leap.

Why would you not say anything when asked?

What does that even have to do with atheism?

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

A religion is defined by taking a leap of faith. Atheism has no leap.

I can feel a half-assed version of Pascal's Wager coming on from this little comment.

quote:Originally posted by L33tz:

if you really don't believe in anything #1 you don't brag and number 2 u say nothing when asked.

On what sort of logic (or lack there for of)do you make this postulate on?

Atheism is not a religion. It's just a word to describe the lack of belief in one or more dieties.

I'm an atheist and I think that atheism is a religion in some sense. I assume occams razor, I assume the tenants of the scientific method, and I assume that language can convey ideas. I have faith in these principles, and they lead me to believe that God does not exist. Atheism requires fundamental unprovable assumptions about the world, and is therefore a religion in most senses of the word.

numnumNUMnumMMMMmmnummm....troll food....numnumnummmmmmnummm.....

quote:Originally posted by Frontier Psychiatrist:

I can feel a half-assed version of Pascal's Wager coming on from this little comment.

Well to explain it more, I was just saying that a religion is defined by a leap of faith, be it a god, reincarnation, etc. Atheism, since it focuses on evidence provided, has no leap of faith. They look at the evidence and make a judgment.

Unless you were talking about something else :P

Why do I have a feeling the OP's never going to come back to this thread?

You can't prove that evidence makes an argument more likely to be true. I assume it does, but someone else might assume that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and in terms of proof he is just as correct. I think that what really matters is which fundamental assumptions make your life better on the whole.

Oh my fucking science. This crops up at least once a day.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

You can't prove that evidence makes an argument more likely to be true.

Oh brother. I guess we should use something besides evidence to convict criminals. This may be the stupidest statement I've read on here yet.

When you say, "I am an atheist," you are saying, "I have no belief in god". Right there you are stating that you exist, that you believe things, and that God is not one of those things that you believe. You cannot prove any of those three things without first making unprovable assumptions, and therefore anyone claiming to be an atheist has faith in certain statements, probably akin to the scientific principles I mentioned earlier.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

I'm an atheist and I think that atheism is a religion in some sense.

In what sense? Is your lack of belief in the Easter Bunny a religion too?

yes. My lack of belief in the easter bunny is derived from faith in scientific principles. I believe in convicting criminals because I assume or derive from assumptions the fact that evidence indicates truth.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

therefore anyone claiming to be an atheist has faith in certain statements, probably akin to the scientific principles I mentioned earlier.

Atheism does not require faith! Get that through your thick skull!

quote:Originally posted by waves:

yes. My lack of belief in the easter bunny is derived from faith in scientific principles.

Do you no what faith is? Faith is believing in something without evidence. Do you know anything about scientific principles or did you just choose to believe in them?

quote:Originally posted by waves:

I believe in convicting criminals because I assume or derive from assumptions the fact that evidence indicates truth.

Why do you assume that evidence indicates truth? That is fucking retarded! Assumptions aren't needed. Evidence by definition makes something evident. The more strong evidence brought fourth, the more evident a conclusion becomes. Your statement that, "You can't prove that evidence makes an argument more likely to be true" is contradiction in itself.

If you think of atheism as not having a belief in god, then you are right, atheism requires no faith, but by that logic a rock is an atheist and so is the easter bunny or anything else that doesn't exist. Neither the easter bunny nor a rock has faith in God. If you think of atheism as the doctrine that attempts to justify non-belief in God, than it is a religion, because to logically deduce anything faith is needed.

I realize that is illogical, which is my point. You can't prove that deductive logic reflects reality without using deductive logic.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

If you think of atheism as not having a belief in god, then you are right, atheism requires no faith, but by that logic a rock is an atheist and so is the easter bunny or anything else that doesn't exist. Neither the easter bunny nor a rock has faith in God. If you think of atheism as the doctrine that attempts to justify non-belief in God, than it is a religion, because to logically deduce anything faith is needed.

Some faith, yes, but faith != religion. Religion requires a great deal more. Do you even know the definition of "religious"?

quote:1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>

Thats why I said religious in some sense, by which I mean anyone saying they are an atheist has faith in UNPROVEABLE ASSUMPTIONS, which I think is very similar to a religious person.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

but by that logic a rock is an atheist

You really are off your rocker. By what logic do you think a rock would not be an atheist?



quote:Originally posted by waves:

[B]and so is the easter bunny or anything else that doesn't exist.

Uh, no! Imaginary creatures can't be anything, can they?

quote:Originally posted by waves:

If you think of atheism as the doctrine that attempts to justify non-belief in God, than it is a religion, because to logically deduce anything faith is needed.

I guess it's not sinking in. Atheism is not a doctrine to justify anything!

Read this over and over if you have to:

Atheist: One who lacks belief in God or gods.

No. That is one narrow defintion of atheism.

According to dictionary.com it can be



1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

a doctrine is:

A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.

It is not at all a stretch to think of atheism as a body of principles presented for acceptance or belief. I also think those priniciples could be calssified as religious, since they are unprovable and require faith.

Im Editing this to say im going to bed and wont be able to respond until tomorrow afternoon

[This message has been edited by waves (edited 11-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

Well to explain it more, I was just saying that a religion is defined by a leap of faith, be it a god, reincarnation, etc. Atheism, since it focuses on evidence provided, has no leap of faith. They look at the evidence and make a judgment.

Unless you were talking about something else :P



I'm assuming you've never heard of Pascal's wager, correct?

Pascal's wager is basically this:

if you live a "good" (one where you do good, not eat drink be merry.) and you die, then you go to heaven and have eternal life.

if you dont live a good life, you eat drink and are merry, and you die. Then you wind up at the gates of hell.

But on the other hand, if you live the "good life" and there ISNT a god, what have you lost?

according to Pascal, its better to live the "good" life. Because either way, heaven or no heaven, you'll be living the good life.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

No. That is one narrow defintion of atheism.

According to dictionary.com it can be



1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.



That's great that dictionary.com has a diverse set of definitions. I don't know any atheists who call themselves that based on anything other than that they lack belief in gods, and that lack is all that is necessary, even by dictionary.com's standards.

Your original statement that atheism is a religion in some sense is bullshit. A religion has a belief in god(s)or at least have a set of tenets that are believed by the followers. There is no such belief or group of tenets that atheists believe. All that one atheist necessarily has in common with another is lack of belief in gods, period.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

If you think of atheism as not having a belief in god, then you are right, atheism requires no faith, but by that logic a rock is an atheist and so is the easter bunny or anything else that doesn't exist. Neither the easter bunny nor a rock has faith in God. If you think of atheism as the doctrine that attempts to justify non-belief in God, than it is a religion, because to logically deduce anything faith is needed.

For something to be an atheist or anything, it must first be able to come to a conclusion about its beliefs. Since a rock doesnt have any conciousness at all, it cant come to a concious decision. Your logic fails.

Whoa whoa whoa.

You are NOT going to sit here and tell me that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

quote:Originally posted by waves:

Thats why I said religious in some sense, by which I mean anyone saying they are an atheist has faith in UNPROVEABLE ASSUMPTIONS, which I think is very similar to a religious person.

What is the assumption that atheism makes? I'm not assuming anything more than that I exist and that reality is something like my senses perceive. A lack of belief is not an assumption. Your lack of belief in a purple dildo-horned unicorn that will appear to know if you say "hello" does not make you religious.

It is true that everyone has faith in unprovable assumptions, but being an atheist doesn't add any more.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

It is not at all a stretch to think of atheism as a body of principles presented for acceptance or belief. I also think those priniciples could be calssified as religious, since they are unprovable and require faith.

1.) It requires no faith to disbelieve in something for which there is no evidence, other than the faith that your senses would be accurate enough to perceive evidence if it existed... and that faith, everyone has.

2.) Perhaps you should re-read the definition of religion given. Something requiring faith does not at all mean it is religious.

"That's great that dictionary.com has a diverse set of definitions. I don't know any atheists who call themselves that based on anything other than that they lack belief in gods, and that lack is all that is necessary, even by dictionary.com's standards."

It is great they have a diverse set of definitions, because it ensures that nobody will define something narrowly and then claim it is the only possible definition. As for atheists who call themselves atheists based on other things than simple disbelief of god, look at this:

"For something to be an atheist or anything, it must first be able to come to a conclusion about its beliefs. Since a rock doesnt have any conciousness at all, it cant come to a concious decision. Your logic fails."

There's someone who thinks that atheism is more than just not having belief in God. He thinks that everyone must come to a conclusion about their beliefs before being an atheist, and therefore a rock is not an atheist even though it does not believe in God.

"I'm not assuming anything more than that I exist and that reality is something like my senses perceive"

Yeah, you make fundamental assumptions about the world when you say "I exist and I don't believe in God." In my argument below I explain why those assumptions are somewhat religious.

Im going to respond to multiple claims with this argument, so if you think I'm leaving something out tell me so.

Atheism--->Religion

Atheism is

1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.

2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

Under definition 1, a rock is an atheist because it does not have belief in God. Under definition 2, an atheist has to come to a conclusion about his beliefs (as The-Big-Beef said.)

A doctrine is "a principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma"

Religion is, anong other definitions, "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith."

(merriam webster)

I am completely justified in saying:

The principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief that there is no God or gods (atheism) is equivilant to a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith (religion.)



[This message has been edited by waves (edited 11-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

A religion is defined by taking a leap of faith. Atheism has no leap.

Look up Religion in the dictionary.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

There's someone who thinks that atheism is more than just not having belief in God. He thinks that everyone must come to a conclusion about their beliefs before being an atheist, and therefore a rock is not an atheist even though it does not believe in God.

Who is this person? I've never met anyone who would deny that I'm an atheist based on the fact that I must have certain beliefs that go beyond my lack of belief in gods. The notion is ludicrous. If you're trying to prove that there must be more to atheism because you found further entries in a dictionary that go beyond the first one, you are simply making a desperate attempt to defend your idiotic assertions and you're wasting your time here.

Lack of belief in gods is all that is necessary to be labled an atheist, whether or not dictionary.com lists further entries.



quote:Originally posted by waves:

Under definition 1, a rock is an atheist because it does not have belief in God.

Who the fuck cares? Go around telling people that your pet rock is an atheist, your cat is an atheist, etc. Knock yourself out. You'll just come off as a bigger idiot.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

I am completely justified in saying:

The principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief that there is no God or gods (atheism) is equivilant to a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith (religion.)

No you're not. One does not need to believe in a specific principle or body of principles to lack belief in gods. You can go on spouting that atheism must include more than simply lacking belief in gods, but that won't make it so. Some atheists go beyond this, but it is not necessary.

quote:Originally posted by Infectedgoose:

Look up Religion in the dictionary.

http://tinyurl.com/yyrk8f

First definitions

# a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"

# an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"

And I never said the definition of Religion was a leap of faith. But I said it was defined by it, meaning that every religion has a leap of faith of some sort.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

Under definition 1, a rock is an atheist because it does not have belief in God.

Taking the dictionary definition alone is really just plain idiotic. A reasonable person would assume that when speaking of beliefs (or lack thereof), the dictionary's author is talking about people.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

I am completely justified in saying:

The principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief that there is no God or gods (atheism) is equivilant to a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith (religion.)

Even your distorted definition of atheism, would not cause atheism to be labled a religion. If I proclaimed, "I'm sure there are no gods", that is not enough for atheism to be my religion. Religions are based on more than just one belief. If I state that the Earth is flat, "Flatearthism" would not be my religion any more than you stating that the Earth is a sphere would make "Spherism" yours.

quote:Who is this person?

The Big Beef, who contradicted me earlier in the thread. That statement was my rebuttal.

quote:I've never met anyone who would deny that I'm an atheist based on the fact that I must have certain beliefs that go beyond my lack of belief in gods.

Nobody ever denied you were an atheist, and nobody ever said atheists can't have beliefs

besides not believing in God

quote:Lack of belief in gods is all that is necessary to be labled an atheist, whether or not dictionary.com lists further entries.

No. There is more than one definition of an atheist. I proved this using dictionaries, the authorities of word meanings, but you claim that they don't matter. Anyone reading this can look up strong vs. weak atheism to see immiediately that there are more than two definitions of atheist in terms of philosophy, and anti vs positive atheism have both been discussed for centuries. There is more than one kind of atheism, and I have told you why I think atheism as a doctrine is religious. It sets forth principles that are believed on faith. Atheism that is just the absence of belief in God is not a religion.

quote:There much be more than one belief for a religion to be based on.

No. A Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Thats a real religion, but I could start a religion with the one principle that unicorns exist, and it could most definetly become a religion.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

No. A Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ. Thats a real religion, but I could start a religion with the one principle that unicorns exist, and it could most definetly become a religion.

That belief has hundreds of associated ones. By believing that Jesus Christ is divine, you also must believe all of the doctrines, rules, laws, and statements in the Bible.

quote: Anyone reading this can look up strong vs. weak atheism to see immiediately that there are more than two definitions of atheist in terms of philosophy...Atheism that is just the absence of belief in God is not a religion.

I think there has been a misunderstanding here. I thought - and apparently Martini & co thought as well - that you meant any type of atheism = a religion. Martini may post and prove me wrong, but I don't think anyone could disagree with what you've said right here.

thank you, I don't believe every kind of atheism is a religion either and I should have made that more clear in my original post. martini is saying that there are no other kinds of atheism besides just not having belief in god, which is completely false. Also, I beleive there can be a religion based on one principle. The christianity one is just a convenient real life example that comes close to being one princeaple, but a personality cult can consist of just believing that the leader is correct.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

There is more than one kind of atheism, and I have told you why I think atheism as a doctrine is religious. It sets forth principles that are believed on faith.

And I have explained to you that I am without faith. My atheism is not my religion!

Even someone who proclaims positively that gods don't exist has not set forth principles. Click on the following link and learn something: http://atheism.about.com/b/a/236497.htm

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

That belief has hundreds of associated ones. By believing that Jesus Christ is divine, you also must believe all of the doctrines, rules, laws, and statements in the Bible.

Exactly! Christianity is based on more than one belief. Based on this logic, any Christian that has faith that aliens exist would be part of another religion, has faith in something else would be part of yet another, etc. Religion goes deeper then that as is shown in my posted link.

High five Martini!

quote:Originally posted by waves:

martini is saying that there are no other kinds of atheism besides just not having belief in god, which is completely false.

Atheism is lacking belief in gods, period. It doesn't matter if there are weak atheists, strong atheists, etc. The broad definition only needs that one requirement. Any more is just narrowing down a person's beliefs or non-beliefs and are not necessary in defining the broad term "atheist", which has just one requirement.

The idea you have of what an atheist is not the broad definition, since one kind of atheism is vastly different than another. Its like saying the broad definition of Religion is the belief in one omnipotent god. Sure, a lot of people use that definition in common speach, but there is no denying that hinduism and other polytheistic faiths are valid religions. In the same way, while atheism can commonly mean a lack of belief in god, there are other valid forms of atheism that both the dictionary and almost any reference source recognize.

Also, I never said that your atheism requires faith. The about.com just sets forth different standards of what makes a religion than the dictionary does, so if you accept merriam-websters definition as correct I am right, but if you accept Austin Cline's definition than you are right.

As for one-principle religions, ill make one up right now that satisfies the "cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith," criteria set forth by the dictionary. It doesn't satisfy Austin's criteria, but fuck him.

The G religion

If you believe G is the holiest letter of the alphabet, you can be a G-ist. That is the one principle g-ists hold to with ardor and faith.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

If you believe G is the holiest letter of the alphabet, you can be a G-ist. That is the one principle g-ists hold to with ardor and faith.

You can be a G-ist all you want, put calling G-ism a religion based on that one belief is absurd. Just as absurd as a Christian also having the religion "Alienism", because he believes in the existence of aliens. I have a feeling you agree with this, but are too stubborn to admit that your argument has failed.



quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

High five Martini!

Right back at ya! And to Twisted_Ferret and everyone else who continues to shoot down these myths that atheism is a religion, it takes faith to be an atheist, etc.

As frustrating and fruitless as it can seem sometimes, I do believe we may be getting through to some people, possibly lurkers who don't know more than they've been told by their fundamentalist family, friends, etc. Don't give up trying to stomp out ignorance and keep rational thought alive. I hope to see you all at the Church of Darwin this Sunday.

No, I'm really not a stubborn person but I definetly think a religion can have one principle. To be a muslim all you have to do is say "there is no god but allah and muhummad is his prophet." Thats two priniciples, but I think it's common sense that a different religion like g-ism can easily have one. As for educating those who are only exposed to fundamentalist religion, I think its counterproductive to talk them out of principles when really what they should be doing is adopting scientific principles and striving to make the world a better place. Being "Faithless" would make a person functionally retarded since a faithless person wouldn't believe in cause and effect, occams razor, or any other unprovable assumption that allows for progress.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

To be a muslim all you have to do is say "there is no god but allah and muhummad is his prophet."

You're talking about what one says while taking the Shahada and becoming a Muslim.

Being a Muslim requires that there is one God. It requires believing that he is omnipotent. It requires believing that he had many prophets and that Muhammad was his last. It requires that the Quran is inerrant. Shall I go on?



quote:Originally posted by waves:

Thats two priniciples, but I think it's common sense that a different religion like g-ism can easily have one.

No, it's not common sense. Just as a Christian having multitudes of other religions, because he has faith in other things outside of Christian beliefs is not common sense.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

Being "Faithless" would make a person functionally retarded since a faithless person wouldn't believe in cause and effect, occams razor, or any other unprovable assumption that allows for progress.

I really don't want to get into a big speal about how it doesn't take faith to believe that effects follow causes in our every day lives. You are coming off as a troll to me at this point.

Well I think you are unconvinceable, but most anyone reading this will realize that a religion can easily have only one principle. The muslim example was not meant to be an example of such a religion, but to suggest that at their hearts, some popular religions are close to one principle. And yes, you do have to have faith to assume effects follow causes, even though they imply each other by definition. You have to have faith to believe that statements can imply each other, that language can convey ideas, and that faith even exists.

I'll let you have the last word in this thread if you want it, but my final message to everyone is to assume whatever principles help you make the world better, and don't be afraid to embrace an unprovable assumption if it's beneficial.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

Well I think you are unconvinceable, but most anyone reading this will realize that a religion can easily have only one principle.

I seriously doubt that.

quote:Originally posted by waves:

As for educating those who are only exposed to fundamentalist religion, I think its counterproductive to talk them out of principles when really what they should be doing is adopting scientific principles and striving to make the world a better place.

Scientific principals such as the law of cause preceding effect, which you contend takes faith to believe in? HA!

quote:Originally posted by waves:

The idea you have of what an atheist is not the broad definition, since one kind of atheism is vastly different than another. Its like saying the broad definition of Religion is the belief in one omnipotent god.

No, it's not like saying that at all. As you go on to say, some religions believe in more than one god. However, lacking a belief in God or gods is a requirement in being an atheist. I don't know why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp.

quote:Originally posted by xray:



No, it's not like saying that at all. As you go on to say, some religions believe in more than one god. However, lacking a belief in God or gods is a requirement in being an atheist. I don't know why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp.



Because there is a difference between lacking a belief, and actively stating that there is no God.

quote:Originally posted by SurahAhriman:

Because there is a difference between lacking a belief, and actively stating that there is no God.

It doesn't matter. What waves is saying is that a lack of belief in God is not the broad definition of atheism. It is. Whether or not an atheist goes a step further and declares that no gods exist is irrelevant, as it's irrelevant if he goes on to believe in Santa Clause. The one thing ALL atheists have in common is lack of belief in Gods.

He then went on to say that "Its like saying the broad definition of Religion is the belief in one omnipotent god".

That's not true at all! I'm sure we all agree that there are religions that believe in many gods. How he comes to the conclusion that saying that all atheists lack belief in gods (which is true) is the same as saying that "the broad definition of Religion is the belief in one omnipotent god" (which is not true) escapes me. It's illogical.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Right back at ya! And to Twisted_Ferret and everyone else who continues to shoot down these myths that atheism is a religion, it takes faith to be an atheist, etc.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) I consistantly find myself agreeing with and admiring your posts. Recognition from the great Martini is no small thing! http://www.totse.com/bbs/cool.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/cool.gif)

quote:As frustrating and fruitless as it can seem sometimes, I do believe we may be getting through to some people, possibly lurkers who don't know more than they've been told by their fundamentalist family, friends, etc. Don't give up trying to stomp out ignorance and keep rational thought alive. I hope to see you all at the Church of Darwin this Sunday.

That's what I've always hoped, but lately I've been running out of energy. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) But yeah, we can discuss this more after the Sacraments of Evolutionism are administered. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)