You know I actually think it was because of survival. People survived to the end of their calendar year, then had a big party to celebrate the fact that they survived. Then the next year came and they had another party, then it became tradition. Then perhaps one day some kid asks his dad, "Why do we have a party every year?" and his dad says: "Well son, we've always had a party at the end of the year and we've always had enough food to see us through to the next one." Then it's easy to see how this idea becomes a religion. Perhaps the fact that they have this party every year is what guarantees the next year will be ok, and so a self-imposed confidence trick is born.

I think it was the result of newly formed governments attempting to implement some control over society.



~Q~

A way to explain things we didn't understand.

i think it's a way to fill in what we can't understand, an escape from the fear of not knowing.

~*~4 the luv of god and all his croatians~*~

quote:Originally posted by DrGay:

~*~4 the luv of god and all his croatians~*~

Lol. Not a big believer of the plight of the Serbs then?

quote:Originally posted by Q:

I think it was the result of newly formed governments attempting to implement some control over society.



~Q~

Me too. But im still a theist. And my beliefs tend to tanggle with Tsarions.

There are probably more reasons for the rise of Religion than anyone will ever know. Religion is an important aspect in the lives of most people, even if they are not a very dogmatic follower, because it gives them a sense of security. 'Knowing' they will live forever in paradise, is a tempting idea. It is human nature to want assurance, and an answer to all your questions. When something gives you that, no matter how absurd it may seem, it can still overwhelm you. Need more?

I actually read something about how it evolved as a defense mechanism. I think it also started as a way to explain things. If you look at all the ancient cultures of the world they all had their own religious customs. Today religion lacks that diversity that it once had, because of the religious zealots who willingly spread mono-theism.

Long ago when most of our species lived as nomads, there seems to have been just naturalistic spiritual beliefs without any logical structure.

The organised religions as we know them began after sea level fell globally due to some geographical phenomenon or other, and water was no longer found throughout land masses, but instead became concentrated in smaller areas. This occured something like 9 or 10 thousand years ago.

It was directly responsible for the birth of civilisation. Because for the first time, mankind started to live in large numbers together, and remain continuously in that location instead of wandering around the plains like their nomadic ancestors.

The religious belief systems which suddenly emerged didn't come as a coincidence, they were performing a function. Religious beliefs give men a reason to work with each other towards a common greater goal, if they believe it's what their god wants. And religious beliefs give men a reason not to behave badly, if they believe their god will be angry and punish them for it.

Essentially, religious beliefs made a population more likely to perform well as an economy.

Societies without this new mutation would function poorly, and either disband or be conquered by a better functioning society.

It's an example of how mutation in memetics parallels mutation in genetics. Once the mutation of religious belief emerged, due to reasons which are in fact unimportant, those religious beliefs gave it's believers a better chance at surviving. Good mutations remain, bad mutations are rooted out by the environment, and the organisms who possess these beliefs will either perish or prosper according to the harsh system of survival of the fittest.

Without religion, functioning economies wouldn't have emerged, at least not as suddenly as they did.

Without economic structure, social stability wouldn't have emerged like it did.

And it just so happened that for a few thousand years religion was the best belief system for individuals to generate a highly productive economy.

Until a new mutation replaced it, when science took it's place.

Nowadays everybody seems to be either atheist, or at least a quasi-atheist.

But we have just as much faith in science as our ancestors had in religion.

Just sayin.

kids have a natural evolved tendency to believe what their parents say in a solemn voice. "don't jump over the clif" "don't eat the purple berries or you will die" when parents tell their kids "you must sacrifice a goat on the new moon or the crops will fail" they believe it, because it is said with the same tone of voice, this is why religions are passed down.

also it is why it is important to religious fanatics to indoctrinate children early.

The point I'm trying to make without actually stating a position btw is this:

I'm not questioning the fundamental validity of science.

I'm saying that we have faith in it because it's economically rewarding to us to belong in a group that has this belief system. It's exactly the same as religious beliefs were for our ancestors.

That doesn't mean that science is as silly and arbitrary as some of the religions which have existed, in terms of what those religions said about truth.

The difference between science and religion, is that in terms of the function each belief system has played economically, for religious beliefs truth was secondary to the functioning of the system, whereas in science truth is central to it.

So what I'm trying to say is that religions of the past simply didn't have much of a NEED for truth in their statements about reality.

Science is so much more reliable because it DOES have that requirement.

But you can't reject RELIGION as a belief system fairly until you examine a religion which HAS had the same truth requirements as science, a religion which has that requirement from the very beginning.

Such a religion hasn't existed yet, at least none that left any trace behind.

That doesn't mean such a religion isn't on the way...

fuck off, no religion is based on truth, only humanism, and that doesn't require any "faith" so doesn't really count as a religion.

quote:Originally posted by stormshadowftb:

no religion is based on truth



No religion HAS been based on truth, did you bother reading through my posts before casting judgement on them? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

And wtf is up with the aggression?

Scientology is a good example of how some religions possibly started. Religion is nothing more than a socially accepted, large cult.

quote:Originally posted by stormshadowftb:

you must sacrifice a goat on the new moon or the crops will fail

*Goes goat shopping*

quote:Originally posted by Q:

I think it was the result of newly formed governments attempting to implement some control over society.



~Q~

indeed. it makes sense because back then it was pretty hectic,gory,no moral and such. religion probly helped for a while but little did they know muliple religions would cause hatred,war, and death

more or less then if there was no religion, we'll never know

Religion, science, and government have done nothing to deter the murderous nature of humanity; they've simply focused it from 1-on-1 killings to organized genocide in the form of crusades (insert other words for various religions' warfare), national warfare, and state executions.

When it comes to sex: we have porn (LOTS of porn), hookers, strippers...hell, in some areas of the world, you can fuck little children if you have the money. There are also religious areas of the world with plenty of rape...and here in America, rape is just as common as ever. There also exists a good portion of 'spoils of war' rape.

Religion's efforts cannot deter the darker side of man.

Scientific efforts cannot deter the darker side of man.

Government efforts cannot deter the darker side of man.

If religion's purpose was to unify and moralize; it never came close to working.

If science was to find a better way; it has yet to do so.

If government is meant to control; it will never work.

Religion, science, and government provide avenues for people seeking to better themselves through structured faith, knowledge, and society. They still must choose freely to do so, or the efforts will remain futile.

The odd thing is, those who choose to improve themselves need no directive to follow in order to do so: If religion exists to show a better way, it is useless. If government exists to show a better way, it is useless. If science exists to show a better way, it is useless.

Religion, government, and science: I conclude that they are little, if anything, more than comfort blankets for those who cannot handle the empty feeling in their hearts. Something is missing, and these people fill it with 'structure'.

well, we know primatives have medicine men. medicine men are just weak guys that figure out they can fool others into thinking they have powers by pointing sticks at them and chanting. that is the birth of religion, imo.

Emile Durkhiem stated that religion involves "things that surpass the limits of our knowledge" and arose to "answer the questions to lifes uncertainties." Such as, why am I here and what happens when I die?

He identified 3 major functions of religion: it provides meaning and purpose, a form of social control, and social cohesion by uniting people through shared values, norms and symbols.

Karl Marx said that religion diverts attention from social inequalities and legitimizes the status quo.

If we look at history we can see that religion can have both positive and negative affects on society and that society and culture in turn affects religion. e.g. women priests, gender nuetral language in new religious books, use of contraception.

quote:Originally posted by fullcircle:



No religion HAS been based on truth, did you bother reading through my posts before casting judgement on them? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

And wtf is up with the aggression?

religion and it's apologists have a lot to answer for, no religion has anything good about it, it is my strongly held opinion that all religions should be abolished and religious people should face the firing squad if they refuse.

The first religions were very much based on natural elements of the earth - Sun, Rain, Wind etc.etc. This is because people relied on these things to live, and had no way to explain why or how the sun rose and set everyday or why the seasons came and went. Therefore the only reasonable explanation to people's minds were that there was some supreme being/s controlling this. Hence the worlds earliest religion were mainly solar/lunar! The Egyptians and Mesoamerican civilisations are perfect examples of this.

Fullcircle: Although the last major ice age did indeed end about 10,000 years ago, there seems to have been a concern with religion long before this, depending on how you interpret the evidence. We know that people were being formally buried at least 40,000 years ago (off the top of my head) at Lake Mungo in Southeast Australia. The concern with formal burial can most certainly be interpreted as a concern with an afterlife or spirituality.

As well as this, carvings of females - perhaps showing a belief in the "Mother Earth" goddess were being carved as long ago as 33-31,000 years ago (eg. Geissenklosterle cave - Southern Germany). I for one do not believe the this is the case though.

[This message has been edited by Twiggy (edited 11-21-2006).]

I think a mixture.

I believe the concept of theism was created using the 'God of the Gaps Theory' to explain things we currently didn't know.

Rulers needed an order to control subjects, the masses, and chose theism. That's how organized religion evolved.

It's got a great promise (everlasting life) and a severe penalty (eternal damnation), so people followed it.

~Bump~

All to explain things that they could not without it.

I think it had a lot to do with what happens after death. The ancient Egyptians didn't pay much attention to their life on earth, it was all about making sure they were okay in the afterlife.

I know exactly how it happened: like an internet meme it fucking happened.

In the beginning there was Goatse. It started as nothing more than an inside joke, created by one or two people out of sheer boredom. Then, seemingly overnight, it becomes world renowned. People start asking complicated questions about goatse, such as 'What gender is it?', 'Who is it?' and 'How does it do the things it does?'.

Millions of hits per day ensured it's global acceptance, and pretty soon, goatse becomes commonplace. You have people that support goatse and people that are against it.

Other people, seeing this, satirize goatse, creating spin-offs like Tubgirl and Lemonparty. Time passes, and the legend grows, and others try exploiting the success of Goatse by creating their own version of it, with the intent to create a following.

These creations are heartless, soulless abominations, warping the original and altering too much for it to be rationalized or ever accepted. These creations achieve little more than cult status, like Burngirl or Harlequin Fetus. Sometimes one of these cults grows: Bel-Air is the Scientology of internet meme.

I believe that is was mostly used as an explanation of what we didn't know (What happens when we die?) or phenomena we didn't understand (What/who causes lightning?)

People looked up to their leaders to explain these things. These leaders would have ended up looking weak if they didn't have an explanation, so that had to make one up. They also had to make it sound very final as well, so no one questioned their integrity. Appearing all knowing also strengthened the leader’s position of power, and it all continued on from there.

ROFL, jb_mcbean, that was awesome. i mean it, good post.

perhaps we will never know the real truth to this, but probably to explain things that we didnt understand. that would explain why the catholic church hates science, cause its taking away that "i dont understand that" factor.

but then again im pretty far gone.

This doesn't apply to all religions, but wandering around in the desert without drinking water for days can fuck your brain up and make you start seeing things.

It's a means of manipulation, pure and simple. If you threaten the pecking order, or the survival of a person, and offer them an out, the fools will gladly make you their master. It's the way civilization has been run for the last 10,000 years. The moral masters(priests) control information so as to keep the rubes at a level not much higher than domesticated primates and thus, easily influence them through veiled threats. Concepts such as currency, and property could never function if everyone is wise to the "game."

quote:Originally posted by SmokingSalmon:

ROFL, jb_mcbean, that was awesome. i mean it, good post.

Do you mean my idea of where religion comes from or the serbo-croat joke?

Anyway, thanks.

First

Animizm

then

Totemizm

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Not religions, but belief started by the weakness of human. They started to search the thing on nature which they dont have in their own.

Religions are created by the forces who want to control the society and the producing system.