i was just wondering, seems like another hypocrite thing, cause i know alot of christians who talk the talk, and talk all about resisting temptation and they listen to heavy metal and many other seemingly sinful kinds of music,i've heard many preachers say (lol) all music is only to justify god, so how do you justify secular music if you listen to it?

I'm a Christian and I listen to secular music and watch some movies with a lot of "bad stuff". I really don't know if I can justify it. But I couldn't justify not watching it. So I just say it entertainment and enjoy it

I don't know if thats bad or good

I am the Darkness, and the Light; I am the Beginning and the End; I am all that ever was, is, and will be; I am the Lord.

There is no such thing as 'secular'. Someone failing to recognize the source of the natural mechanisms that brought their talents to be does not change what the source is.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

I'm a Christian and I listen to secular music and watch some movies with a lot of "bad stuff". I really don't know if I can justify it. But I couldn't justify not watching it. So I just say it entertainment and enjoy it

I don't know if thats bad or good

Oh so your one of those christians who say they are christians, but are more like satanists?

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Oh so your one of those christians who say they are christians, but are more like satanists?



Shut up, they're the best kind. Don't encourage him to get all anti-everything and holy on people's asses. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Oh so your one of those christians who say they are christians, but are more like satanists?

I think he is Catholic.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:



There is no such thing as 'secular'. Someone failing to recognize the source of the natural mechanisms that brought their talents to be does not change what the source is.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Ignoring all the unsubstantiated bullshit in your post...

Whether a god exists or not does not change the fact that by "secular" it is meant that the musician himself does not believe in god - or at least doesn't express his belief through his music.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

I am the Darkness, and the Light; I am the Beginning and the End; I am all that ever was, is, and will be; I am the Lord.

There is no such thing as 'secular'. Someone failing to recognize the source of the natural mechanisms that brought their talents to be does not change what the source is.

Actually, there is such a thing as 'secular'. Please do not let your beliefs affect your common sense.

Even if Christians are wrong for listening to secular music, most have far greater questions that they will have to answer for.

I've been studying the Bible lately because I want to be completely knowledgeable about Christianity even though I am not what you would call a believer.

If the Bible was strictly enforced, there would be few people alive on this earth today.

If a Christian follows the Bible as the inerrant word of God, then no, there is no such thing as 'secular', as all things are part of God; thus all things pertain to the spiritual.

Music is a celebration of all the different facets of life. Listening to music, even if its Satanic music, is in my eyes more holy than attending church.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

If a Christian follows the Bible as the inerrant word of God, then no, there is no such thing as 'secular', as all things are part of God; thus all things pertain to the spiritual.

Is there such a word as abortion?

Just because you disagree with it does not change the fact that it actually exist.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

If a Christian follows the Bible as the inerrant word of God, then no, there is no such thing as 'secular', as all things are part of God; thus all things pertain to the spiritual.

There are things which follow the Christian god's wishes and things that do not; hence there are things which can be called "secular" and things which cannot be. {i]That[/i] is the context of the question being asked, which is why you're redefinition fails miserably.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

There are things which follow the Christian god's wishes and things that do not; hence there are things which can be called "secular" and things which cannot be. {i]That[/i] is the context of the question being asked, which is why you're redefinition fails miserably.



What are you talking about? Just because something doesn't follow God's wishes doesn't mean it isn't a part of God.



I'll expand, so it doesn't seem like I'm being an asshole:

A true Christian should be able to see God in any and everything. It's like finding the Dharma-body in the hedge at the end of the garden, to paraphrase Huxley. It's finding the divine essence in everything, seeing God even in the places that celebrate a lack of it.

[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 11-27-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:



A true Christian should be able to see God in any and everything. It's like finding the Dharma-body in the hedge at the end of the garden, to paraphrase Huxley. It's finding the divine essence in everything, seeing God even in the places that celebrate a lack of it.

There are things which are, by definition, outside of the Christian god's wishes, or commands. Sin, for example, is the embodiment of this very concept: the deviation from the Christian god.

The very question posed in the beginning of the thread implies that the definition of "secular" being used is that of something outside of the Christian god, hence why a Christian would need to "justify" enjoying the music in the first place.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

There are things which are, by definition, outside of the Christian god's wishes, or commands. Sin, for example, is the embodiment of this very concept: the deviation from the Christian god.

The very question posed in the beginning of the thread implies that the definition of "secular" being used is that of something outside of the Christian god, hence why a Christian would need to "justify" enjoying the music in the first place.



Sin is not so much the "deviation" from God as it is the ignorance of God - the lack of God. If you can find God in something, how can it be sinful?

I understand the question the OP posed, however, I think he doesn't quite understand the true nature of God.

Also, the Christian God does not really have "commands" or "wishes", the Christian God gives guidelines on how to live life. Jesus didn't say, "Don't do: this, this, and this.", Jesus said, "Live life loving everyone".

Unless you knowingly listen to music that will destroy your faith in God, then I don't see how it could be sinful. And if your faith can be destroyed so easily, I doubt you really had faith to begin with.

[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 11-27-2006).]

I'm not here to argue about any position. I'm here to point out that Hexadecimal was changing the meaning of "secular" and "sin" as implied by the OP. If you're going to answer a question then it seems ridiculous to change the meaning of the concepts being discussed as he was doing.

Moreover, it definitely can be said that the Christian god gave out commands; for example it is explicitly stated in the bible that blaspheming against the holy spirit is an unforgivable offense and thus Christians are commanded not to do so.

The fact of the matter is that given what seems to be the context of the initial question, there is such a thing as "secular" music, and hence there would be reasons why a Christian might want to justify listening to it.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I'm not here to argue about any position. I'm here to point out that Hexadecimal was changing the meaning of "secular" and "sin" as implied by the OP. If you're going to answer a question then it seems ridiculous to change the meaning of the concepts being discussed as he was doing.

Moreover, it definitely can be said that the Christian god gave out commands; for example it is explicitly stated in the bible that blaspheming against the holy spirit is an unforgivable offense and thus Christians are commanded not to do so.

The fact of the matter is that given what seems to be the context of the initial question, there is such a thing as "secular" music, and hence there would be reasons why a Christian might want to justify listening to it.

What's wrong with clarifying the concepts discussed? Just because the OP has a particular view doesn't mean I can't offer a differing view?

The Christian God did not give out specific Commandments as in the Old Testament. About the Holy Spirit, first I'd like to see the specific part of the Bible that talks about this. I haven't seen that at all, although I've only read John, Acts, part of Romans, and Revelations.

Given the context of the OPs post, yes, there is such a thing as secular music. However, we aren't living in a universe that is confined to the OPs world view, now are we? I already gave the reasons a Christian might want to "justify" listening to secular music anyway: a true Christian can find God even where God is not celebrated (secular music).

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

What's wrong with clarifying the concepts discussed? Just because the OP has a particular view doesn't mean I can't offer a differing view?

Nothing; that's preciesly what I am doing, in clarifying to Hexadecimal why his "answer" doesn't answer anything at all if we're to follow the original question at hand.

quote:

The Christian God did not give out specific Commandments as in the Old Testament. About the Holy Spirit, first I'd like to see the specific part of the Bible that talks about this. I haven't seen that at all, although I've only read John, Acts, part of Romans, and Revelations.

He certainly does:

" And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" {26} He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" {27} So he answered and said, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbour as yourself.'" {28} And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." {29} "

-- Luke 10:25-37

Jesus has essentially narrowed down "the Law" (i.e. commandments) given to the Jews to the essential componenets: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and "Love your neighbour as yourself".

As for the unforgivable sin:

"31Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,"

-- Matt. 12:31-32



quote:

However, we aren't living in a universe that is confined to the OPs world view, now are we? I already gave the reasons a Christian might want to "justify" listening to secular music anyway: a true Christian can find God even where God is not celebrated (secular music).

First of all, I was talking to Hexadecimal, not you. So whether you gave a reason why a Christian would want to justify their listening of secular music, is irrelevant. Hexadecimal was not only failing to answer the question at hand, but ignoring the fact that secular music can certainly be said to exist given the most common definition of "sin" or "absence of god" which apparently the OP was using.

Apparently, even you agree that secular music can be said to exist, so you're actually agreeing with me. Anything else besides this initial point is something else besides my point.



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 11-27-2006).]

Alright, fair enough. I guess I just got a bit confused.

Well, I agree with you, but I also agree with the other poster. Secular music can exist to some degree, but in another sense all things are of God.

This is mostly an argument over semantics, I guess. Or something.

[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 11-27-2006).]

Only guidlines? Hah. Read Leviticus..

[This message has been edited by nametag (edited 11-27-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by nametag:

Only guidlines? Hah. Read Leviticus..



You have no idea what you're talking about, please be quiet. Jesus told us that we no longer need to follow the rules of the Old Testament, rather, we now follow what Jesus taught.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

You have no idea what you're talking about, please be quiet. Jesus told us that we no longer need to follow the rules of the Old Testament, rather, we now follow what Jesus taught.

If that's the case, why, then, do assholes who are "christian" keep using the Old Testament to back up their hate of homosexuals?



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-28-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

You have no idea what you're talking about, please be quiet. Jesus told us that we no longer need to follow the rules of the Old Testament, rather, we now follow what Jesus taught.

If that's the case, why, then, do assholes who are "christian" keep using the Old Testament to back up their hate of homosexuals?





Because they're fucking morons, that's why. They aren't really Christians.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Because they're fucking morons, that's why. They aren't really Christians.

No offence, but it really bothers me when people say "they're not really Christians". I have heard that from so many different Christians with heavily different view points and the absurdity of thinking you've got it right when it is all speculative is just absurd.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Alright, fair enough. I guess I just got a bit confused.

Well, I agree with you, but I also agree with the other poster. Secular music can exist to some degree, but in another sense all things are of God.

This is mostly an argument over semantics, I guess. Or something.



I know that Totse can be a very educational website. I have learned a lot and gained new insight, however, you just let one post change your religious beliefs.

You said that there is no such thing as secular, being that all things are from God.

In your next post, you say that certain things are secular.

You could be a politician.

Are you saying that Christians who believe that homosexuals should go to tell aren't real Christians?

From my understanding, there aren't too many real Christians then.

This is what really pisses me off though, I hate when people pick and choose what they want to believe from their Holy Book.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard, " oh but that's from the Old Testament."

Even though I am not religous, I love religion. I find it to be one of the most interesting things.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I'm not here to argue about any position. I'm here to point out that Hexadecimal was changing the meaning of "secular" and "sin" as implied by the OP. If you're going to answer a question then it seems ridiculous to change the meaning of the concepts being discussed as he was doing.

Moreover, it definitely can be said that the Christian god gave out commands; for example it is explicitly stated in the bible that blaspheming against the holy spirit is an unforgivable offense and thus Christians are commanded not to do so.

The fact of the matter is that given what seems to be the context of the initial question, there is such a thing as "secular" music, and hence there would be reasons why a Christian might want to justify listening to it.

Rust; secular, as being used in his question, would be defined as 'apart from the divine', would it not?

Now, if one takes God's direct claim of pantheism as true (which I'd like to think a Bible reading Christian would...as it's one of the only two things God said directly to his children), then there is NOTHING that is secular; all things would be divine, whether or not we succeed in acknowledging such.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

You have no idea what you're talking about, please be quiet. Jesus told us that we no longer need to follow the rules of the Old Testament, rather, we now follow what Jesus taught.

If that's the case, why, then, do assholes who are "christian" keep using the Old Testament to back up their hate of homosexuals?





My take on your question: People can really fucking suck sometimes.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Rust; secular, as being used in his question, would be defined as 'apart from the divine', would it not?

Now, if one takes God's direct claim of pantheism as true (which I'd like to think a Bible reading Christian would...as it's one of the only two things God said directly to his children), then there is NOTHING that is secular; all things would be divine, whether or not we succeed in acknowledging such.

I disagree. Just because a certain word conflicts with ones religious beliefs does not cease it to exist.

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

I disagree. Just because a certain word conflicts with ones religious beliefs does not cease it to exist.



Of course the word exists; but if the claim of pantheism is taken as true, then there is nothing in existence that would fit the definition of the word.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Rust; secular, as being used in his question, would be defined as 'apart from the divine', would it not?

No. It would be defined as not representing god's wishes, or even going against god's wishes; sinful.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Of course the word exists; but if the claim of pantheism is taken as true, then there is nothing in existence that would fit the definition of the word.

You are exactly right. However, like you said pantheism is a claim. It has no basis in reality.

That is not to say that I do not respect those people who hold that belief, because I most definitely do. Although, I do ask those to respect my beliefs and by telling me that there is no such thing as secular is not doing that.

I do not care what one wishes to believe, but do not tell me to agree with you.

quote:Originally posted by nametag:

Only guidlines? Hah. Read Leviticus..



Christians are not bound by the Old Testament except in the case which Rust pointed out.

As for the thread, I consider myself devout. I attend sunday school, Sunday morning and night services and Wednesday services nearly every time. I also poke myself for not reading the Bible more.

So then, lets take a look at my music library for the worst:

Blue Oyster Cult

Fear Factory

Front Line Assembly

Gamma Ray

GWAR

Helloween

Icon of Coil

KMFDM

Laibach

Pink Floyd

Pitchshifter

Skinny Puppy

Three 6 Mafia

Turmion Katilot

Wumpscut

The most offensive would be the ones emboldened.

Would I let anyone at church hear this? HELL NO. I know what my pastor's opinion on this type of music is and I'll not stick my cock in the hornet's nest. Especially since I am well thought of.

So, why in the hell would I listen to gothic industrial and death metal? The same reason I read totse and view ogrish with a clear conscience.

I can experience and enjoy it all but it neednt necessarilly change my viewpoints on anything religious. I consider the Bible to be true. Therefore, if something is contradictory to what I consider truth, need I take it to heart? No.

Although, I will say I never listen to music that directly blasphemes God. I do pride myself in being able to count the total number of time I have ever taken the Lord's name in vain on one hand. Other than that I dont listen to music that sucks balls.

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

I know that Totse can be a very educational website. I have learned a lot and gained new insight, however, you just let one post change your religious beliefs.

You said that there is no such thing as secular, being that all things are from God.

In your next post, you say that certain things are secular.

You could be a politician.

Are you saying that Christians who believe that homosexuals should go to tell aren't real Christians?

From my understanding, there aren't too many real Christians then.

This is what really pisses me off though, I hate when people pick and choose what they want to believe from their Holy Book.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard, " oh but that's from the Old Testament."

Even though I am not religous, I love religion. I find it to be one of the most interesting things.

Look, you don't quite understand what I'm saying. There can be secular music, but only to an extent. Everything is part of God, so in that sense nothing can be secular.

Can we just establish that Christian music is preachy and everything else is secular?

For fucks sake you guys are worse than SGers bickering over shit that doesnt matter. Whats worse is that the posters bitching over it arent even Christian to begin with. Why are you here?

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Can we just establish that Christian music is preachy and everything else is secular?

For fucks sake you guys are worse than SGers bickering over shit that doesnt matter. Whats worse is that the posters bitching over it arent even Christian to begin with. Why are you here?

Are you saying I'm not Christian?

Also, Christian music isn't "Preachy", or at least it doesn't have to be.

Oh, and if you think shit like GWAR or KMFDM would be offensive to "Christians", you should try listening to something like Legionz ov hell. =P





[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 11-29-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Also, Christian music isn't "Preachy", or at least it doesn't have to be.

Oh, and if you think shit like GWAR or KMFDM would be offensive to "Christians", you should try listening to something like Legionz ov hell. =P



Well, pretty much ANYTHING on my mp3 player would be offensive to my church friends.

Terror by KMFDM talks of being a suicide bomber. GWAR... well shit if you need me telling you why even the titles of GWAR songs would be offensive your pretty bad off, lol.

So, what is your definition on Christian music? I dont really care about knitpicking because, in all honesty, I dont enjoy religious music. Secular music is catchy, Christian music isnt. Therefore, I dont have any of it on my player.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Well, pretty much ANYTHING on my mp3 player would be offensive to my church friends.

Terror by KMFDM talks of being a suicide bomber. GWAR... well shit if you need me telling you why even the titles of GWAR songs would be offensive your pretty bad off, lol.

So, what is your definition on Christian music? I dont really care about knitpicking because, in all honesty, I dont enjoy religious music. Secular music is catchy, Christian music isnt. Therefore, I dont have any of it on my player.

I believe the listener determines what is secular and what is not. Just because someone starts a band and calls themselves Christian, doesn't mean they are, does it?

And speaking of GWAR

"In the name of GWAR

In the name of love

in the name of the blood dripping out of the sun

I call out your God until before me he stands

But don't send me Jesus

He's only a man.

MEAT!

SANDWHICH!"

http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

So there are only three Christians on totse who listen to secular music?

I listen to secular music, but found this thread in the wee hours of the morn and am far too tired to contribute anything of worth.

See this post again, should you doubt me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)