so jesus is alive in heavan

and some how him going to heavan(a really nice place) makes up for "sin"

what was giveing up in order to make this a sacrafice at all let alone the "ultimate" sacrafice?

because as far as the deffanition of sacrafice this doesnt cut it.

jsut thought I should point out how the central part of your religion is flawed and irrational

quote:Originally posted by gomp:

so jesus is alive in heavan

and some how him going to heavan(a really nice place) makes up for "sin"

what was giveing up in order to make this a sacrafice at all let alone the "ultimate" sacrafice?

because as far as the deffanition of sacrafice this doesnt cut it.

jsut thought I should point out how the central part of your religion is flawed and irrational

Since I agree with you, I will overlook your spelling and grammatical errors.

I often ask myself the same question though, what made Jesus's death different from those who sacrifice themselves for us everyday? Whether they're soldiers, firemen, or policemen.

This is a question that I would love a legitimate answer too.

quote:Originally posted by gomp:

so jesus is alive in heavan

and some how him going to heavan(a really nice place) makes up for "sin"

what was giveing up in order to make this a sacrafice at all let alone the "ultimate" sacrafice?

because as far as the deffanition of sacrafice this doesnt cut it.

jsut thought I should point out how the central part of your religion is flawed and irrational

The fact that a diety allowed himself to die for a guilty person when he himself is completely innocent is the salvation mechanism. His resurrection is supposed to be the proof.

Taking the OT sacrificing method, sin of a person is transferred to the animal which did not commit the sin. This is how sacrifice in the Bible works. Someone pays for what amounts to a "sin jar". As far as I know, there wasnt a cap on just hom much sin you could put on a lamb.

Jesus gave himself as that sacrifice and as such can give the salvation to whoever he wants; anyone who asks.

The point is, we sin. Soldiers, firemen, and police officers sin. Jesus did not sin but died for our sin so we didnt have to.

quote:Originally posted by gomp:

so jesus is alive in heavan

and some how him going to heavan(a really nice place) makes up for "sin"

what was giveing up in order to make this a sacrafice at all let alone the "ultimate" sacrafice?

because as far as the deffanition of sacrafice this doesnt cut it.

jsut thought I should point out how the central part of your religion is flawed and irrational

Jesus took the sin of man upon himself. Previously each man had to take the full brunt of sin upon himself. Jesus takes all sin in the past, present and as the future adavances, and so makes it possible for man to enter heaven.

As I understand it ,prior to this there was no prospect of heaven as such. The afterlife is more of a New Testament concept. By accepting sin Jesus made it possible for people to make it to heaven when the apocalypse comes. It makes it possible for mankind to be judged. We are punished for what we have done bad, but as we recognise the wrong we have done we will be forgiven. By accpeting our sin Jesus gave us the prospect of entering heaven.

This isn't quite complete, but I can't really be arsed to continue, I may be back later and finish if you want.

Jesus went through hell when he died seeing as he is "full of sin" .There he freed those who were truly remorseful for all they wrongfully committed.

That is how its a sacrifice. A deity passing through unimaginable pain for the sake of the people he cares about, so he can provide them a place where they can blissfully rest after death.

Osiris resided in the underworld as the lord of the dead, as after being killed by Set, even though he was a god, he could no longer dwell in the land of the living.

After Osiris was killed, Isis resurrected him with the Ritual of Life, which was later given to the Egyptians so that they could give eternal life to all their dead. The spells and rituals cast by Isis, plus many others given to the people by the gods over the centuries, were collected into The Book of Going Forth by Day, colloquially known as The Book of the Dead.



In the underworld, Osiris sits on a great throne, where he is praised by the souls of the just. All those who pass the tests of the underworld become worthy to enter The Blessed Land, that part of the underworld that is like the land of the living, but without sorrow or pain.

In some texts, in addition to the Judging of the Heart, Osiris passes final judgment over the dead, acting in this capacity as an Egyptian version of Radamanthus.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

The fact that a diety allowed himself to die for a guilty person when he himself is completely innocent is the salvation mechanism. His resurrection is supposed to be the proof.

But if he's omnipotent, why does he have to die for another's salvation? Why can't he simply forgive them?

Also, how is that justice at all? Say you were a pedo-rapist and were caught and sentenced to a lifetime in jail. Then, right before they're about to haul you away in cuffs, the judge's son shows up and says "Let me serve his penalty for him!". So the judge says "I don't care, as long as someone goes to jail", and the son is taken to jail and you are set free. However, because the son's father is the judge, he gets let out 3 days later. How has justice been served??? How does that make any sense at all? Furthermore, consider if the judge and the judge's son were the same person, it would be even more fucked up.

quote:Taking the OT sacrificing method, sin of a person is transferred to the animal which did not commit the sin. This is how sacrifice in the Bible works. Someone pays for what amounts to a "sin jar". As far as I know, there wasnt a cap on just hom much sin you could put on a lamb.

Again, how does this make any sense at all? A "sin jar"? If I'm a lying theif, how does killing a lamb or a pidgeon or whatever at the end of the day change that I lied and stole earlier? What kind of justice system is this?

quote:Jesus gave himself as that sacrifice and as such can give the salvation to whoever he wants; anyone who asks.

Why do we have to ask? If the debt is paid, what difference does it make whether we know we paid it or not? I thought the purpose of him dying was to pay mankind's debt, so that all of mankind could be washed of its sins, correct? Why add the extra requirement that we have to 'accept' this payment? It almost seems like he loves creating little loops for people to jump through. Makes it that much easier to "stray from the path" and be sent to the eternal bonfire below...

quote:The point is, we sin. Soldiers, firemen, and police officers sin. Jesus did not sin but died for our sin so we didnt have to.

Again, doesn't make any sense at all. How can one person "die for another transgressions", and they still be punished for what someone else already paid for? Furthermore, do you believe in justice? Do you support justice? Do you consider integrity an admirable trait? If so, why not accept what should be just punishment for you? If I'm caught speeding on the side of the road, I know I'm wrong, and I pay the ticket. If I do something like rob a bank, and get caught, I know the law, and I serve my jailtime. If hell is my just punishment for the way I've lived, shouldn't I, and you (if you are a person of integrity), accept our due punishment?

Of course, I don't see how infinite punishment can logically be considered justice for a finite number of crimes. God is supposed to be the most benevolent being in the universe. And yet I, a human, not even close to anything like "omnibenevolence", couldn't stomach sending even the most evil of people to eternal damnation. http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 11-30-2006).]

quote:But if he's omnipotent, why does he have to die for another's salvation? Why can't he simply forgive them?

Also, how is that justice at all? Say you were a pedo-rapist and were caught and sentenced to a lifetime in jail. Then, right before they're about to haul you away in cuffs, the judge's son shows up and says "Let me serve his penalty for him!". So the judge says "I don't care, as long as someone goes to jail", and the son is taken to jail and you are set free. However, because the son's father is the judge, he gets let out 3 days later. How has justice been served??? How does that make any sense at all? Furthermore, consider if the judge and the judge's son were the same person, it would be even more fucked up.

He didnt have to do anything. He could have said a big Fuck you! to Adam after he sinned.

Your example is perfect. However, you are missing a huge facet of the salvation mechanism: repentance.

Supposing some random guy took the blame for you, you still had to repent from being a pedo otherwise your back in the same situation yet again. Remember, sin is not an act, its a mindset. You think, therefore you are with respect to sin according to Jesus.

quote:Again, how does this make any sense at all? A "sin jar"? If I'm a lying theif, how does killing a lamb or a pidgeon or whatever at the end of the day change that I lied and stole earlier? What kind of justice system is this?

Thats what God said, not me. The rationalization of what all this means is that you are paying a price now to transfer the penalty of sin to something else.

Since not even Jews do this today, lets drop that entirely, not to mention its irrelevant to the topic.

quote:Why do we have to ask? If the debt is paid, what difference does it make whether we know we paid it or not? I thought the purpose of him dying was to pay mankind's debt, so that all of mankind could be washed of its sins, correct? Why add the extra requirement that we have to 'accept' this payment? It almost seems like he loves creating little loops for people to jump through. Makes it that much easier to "stray from the path" and be sent to the eternal bonfire below...

I have a package at the post office that contains a gold ingot. Its mine and its extremely valuable.

What if I dont pick it up? What if I leave it at the post office and die tomorrow?

Why not try to stop being so pretentious when he is giving you something more valuable than anything you will ever own when all you have to do is ask a simple question.

And there is no "straying from the path." The Bible says salvation is sealed by the Holy Spirit. You were a Christian once, werent you? Supposing you meant it when you wee saved, (and of course presuming Christianity to be true) we will see eahc other in heaven.

quote:Again, doesn't make any sense at all. How can one person "die for another transgressions", and they still be punished for what someone else already paid for? Furthermore, do you believe in justice? Do you support justice? Do you consider integrity an admirable trait? If so, why not accept what should be just punishment for you? If I'm caught speeding on the side of the road, I know I'm wrong, and I pay the ticket. If I do something like rob a bank, and get caught, I know the law, and I serve my jailtime. If hell is my just punishment for the way I've lived, shouldn't I, and you (if you are a person of integrity), accept our due punishment?

Of course, I don't see how infinite punishment can logically be considered justice for a finite number of crimes. God is supposed to be the most benevolent being in the universe. And yet I, a human, not even close to anything like "omnibenevolence", couldn't stomach sending even the most evil of people to eternal damnation.

I believe in justice. But its not a death penalty for the One who pays for it like it would be if I were to pay for it. Jesus died, just as we would do.

I would accept punishment for crimes againt my fellow man, but God doesnt sentence you simply for lying, touching young girls, or robbing a bank. He sentences you to death for sin.

He told you not to sin and you did it anyway.He then gave you a chance to redeem yourself but you still didnt. God and sin cannot coexist, so the next best place is in Hell. Remember, hell wasnt made for man, who hadnt sinned when it was made. It was made for Lucifer and the angels that rebelled.

God knows his punishment is harsh. If you could spend some finite time in hell for your sins, why would he have sent Jesus at all?

quote:Originally posted by gomp:

so jesus is alive in heavan

and some how him going to heavan(a really nice place) makes up for "sin"

what was giveing up in order to make this a sacrafice at all let alone the "ultimate" sacrafice?

because as far as the deffanition of sacrafice this doesnt cut it.

jsut thought I should point out how the central part of your religion is flawed and irrational

One way of looking at the scene is to see it in terms of a parallel to modern life in which the creator of an invention, say a robot, would be held liable if the programming of that robot led to the robot committing acts that led to loss or destruction on other people. Of course the creator would be held liable and expected to pay whatever penalty applied. In the parallel Jesus is the creator(see John 1:1), his creation runs off the tracks, there is a death - Cain kills Abel, followed by much more death and destruction. Absolute Justice requires the creator(Jesus) to be held liable and to pay the penalty which by the law is an eye for an eye, so Jesus creation caused death - the penalty is death.

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

The traditional way to look at it is that he died for our sins and for the original sin of the eating of the apple.

However, it has been said even by popes that the adam and eve story was more symbology, so therefore jesus died for a symbol, not for real sin? im not sure but its very weird.