WTF? I just don't understand how people can still be Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu or any religion. It was great 3,000+ years ago when it explained why the sky spit water and what fire was, but now it's hard to understand why people still follow this stuff. I mean, pretty much everything that has to do with religion has been disproved. Any arguements?

I'm not a religious, but I do try to respect peoples religion's as much as possible.

True, a lot of religious beliefs can be considered outdated. However, if one finds solace in their chosen religion then what is the hurt? As long as they do not impose their beliefs on me I am cool with it.

Although, an arguement can definitely be made that religion is the cause of many of the world's problems today.

Basically, I do not care what someones beliefs are, as long as they are good people and do not impose themselves upon me.

Yes, good point. There are a lot of people who really are helped by believing this stuff. And I don't have a problem with that, I just don't understand how they can believe it.

quote:Originally posted by VictimKing:

Yes, good point. There are a lot of people who really are helped by believing this stuff. And I don't have a problem with that, I just don't understand how they can believe it.

We are definitely in agreement about that. I do not understand how someone believes in such things with little to no evidence.

Being an agnostic, I am not against the thought of a higher power, however I would need significant evidence to prove that.

Religion is outdated, but like everything created by man it holds as much wisdom and history as it does ignorance and stupidity. Good and bad. The duality of human nature. It's beautiful and ugly.

As far as God goes, the mere fact that we exist proves that there is a creator. Something made the universe. Whether it was a simple scientific phenomenon or a whirly supernatural being.. who knows? Humans don't, otherwise we wouldn't have so many thousands of belief systems based on everything from fallen prophets to holy warriors, alien beings, seven-armed erotic dancers, ect.

Religion is man's attempt at explaining the unexplainable. Some of it might be really far out there, but it's always good for a laugh. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

If you're not religious you must ridicule religious people as much as possible and try to humiliate them for believing in myths.

People don't use religion soley to explain how we got here.

To say that you can't understand why someone would adhere to a religion because its been disproven is stupid. It hasn't been disproven any more than atheism has been proved.

If you don't have a religion: GOOD FOR YOU

If you do have a religion: GOOD FOR YOU

If you have abug up your ass: go to my Hell.

quote:Originally posted by VictimKing:

WTF? I just don't understand how people can still be Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu or any religion. It was great 3,000+ years ago when it explained why the sky spit water and what fire was, but now it's hard to understand why people still follow this stuff. I mean, pretty much everything that has to do with religion has been disproved. Any arguements?



no...how was the universe created? how did life first come about?

if your gonna bitch about people for their beliefs...piss off. seriously. I dont care about what you believe in. I dont mock atheists for saying there is no god. I dont mock muslims (unless they wanna kill me). I dont mock hindus or anything like that.

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

I'm not a religious, but I do try to respect peoples religion's as much as possible.

yes i respect the mentally retarded person in the street and don't point and laugh but i don't want him driving my bus!!!!

quote:Originally posted by Laboratorio Farmaceutico:

If you're not religious you must ridicule religious people as much as possible and try to humiliate them for believing in myths.

I don't particularly know if you say that in jest, there seems to be a hint of sarcasm there.

Anyhow, why respect something you know to in all likelihood is false..?

Religion, more accurately, is the belief held by a person when they need to believe in somethin'.. it is therefore nothing else but hope held in vain.

laters,

Raven~`

Edit: I have obsessive-compulsive-disorder, had to correct sumthin'..

[This message has been edited by Ravendust (edited 12-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Ravendust:

I don't particularly know if you say that in jest, there seems to be a hint of sarcasm there.

Anyhow, why respect something you know to in all likelihood false..?

Religion, more accurately, is the belief held by a person when they need to believe in somethin'.. it is therefore nothing else but hope held in vain.

laters,

Raven~`



Why respect something that you know in all likelihood to be false? Why not. Do you respect someone for being a good person? Are you now gonna tell me that this good thing exists because of itself. That it IS? Why condemn a bad person for what they do bad? Is Bad real? Does it exist in itself?

In all likelihood is there any Good or Bad?

The reason that we respect these things is because of the outcome. You can't help but respect someone that can stand there ground, even when they're wrong, even when what they're trying to tell you is bullshit. Belief is not in vain, whether there is a god or not belief has it's place, faith is an integral part to your everyday life. Faith is like waking up in the morning and not thinking that today you will die. Faith isn't about praying to god, faith isn't even about praying. It is about knowing that things will work in such and such a way without proof.

Right I'm rambling and I have to leave...

G'night.

Hey thread starter have you ever thought of science as a faith and man made creation before? We live in a time where we take it for granted. Just think of it like this. Shamans believed (still do) that crystals hold extreme power. Now we make computers using crystals. Is that not magic? It's all perspective. Science hasn't disproved anything. It's just proven that what faith and spirituality expresses can be interpreted in a multitude of ways by different cultures.

the world is still a fucked up place, people still need to believe in something because there

bored?

sad?

dont understand life?

dont know what to do in life?

need something to be proud of?

do it because everybody else is doing it?

fear?

I for one dont need religion

I also heard a theory about religion that said since we don't remember our years as an infant we have this constant feeling of where did we come from? Where am I going? Leading to religion. Also psychedelics and meditation and other such things. We understand this world about as much as much as our seemingly clueless pets do. We need something to make up. Or you could look at all the similarities in faith and spirituality and common traits and take a scientific look and say hey maybe there is something to this. Either way it's here to stay always has been and is humanitys most important factor.

quote:Originally posted by stormshadowftb:

yes i respect the mentally retarded person in the street and don't point and laugh but i don't want him driving my bus!!!!

Fucking exactly. I don't want to let the delusional run the show.

Religion is confusing

the age old tribal conflict- they believe one thing while we believe another.

political, ethical, metaphysical, all ideas are equally as correct as one another; they're all wrong.

the only truths are mathematical, everything else is just a bunch of words babbled by apes trying to make sense of the universe.

Some people just believe what they wish was true.

quote:Originally posted by yango wango:

I also heard a theory about religion that said since we don't remember our years as an infant we have this constant feeling of where did we come from?

Yeah, what's with that? Is there a reason I can't remember anything before the age of 5? I assume it's because the brain is still growing or something?

My best friend is atheist, and I go to church on Sundays. We have no problem respecting each others beliefs, so, what the fuck is all your problems?

Religion in my opinion is a mechanism for understanding aspects of life which are all around us, but make no "logical" sense as such...

In the process of "understanding" this natural disorder, I guess most people just fuck up and put their silly cultural views in as the views of God, however...major flaw.

But it doesn't mean there isn't more to life than evolution, atoms and big big bangs http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Bump, 'cause I'm tired of looking at King's stretched post.

Alright, let me set this straight. I've never persecuted,hated etc anyone for their beliefs. I don't know why religious people don't look at the fucking facts. There are unanswered questions, but many bible "facts" have been disproved.

Well yeah it's an old book and alot of the new testament wasn't written untill hundreds of years after Christs death. Of course it's going to be a little outdated and some stretched truth. That doesn't take away from the positive message that Christ spread and is still spreading. Though some people highly misinterpret the bible Religion is not a negative thing. It is extremely important in our world. In fact it is the driving force for almost everything. Faith of some kind that is.

[This message has been edited by yango wango (edited 12-06-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by yango wango:

Well yeah it's an old book and alot of the new testament wasn't written untill hundreds of years after Christs death. Of course it's going to be a little outdated and some stretched truth. That doesn't take away from the positive message that Christ spread and is still spreading. Though some people highly misinterpret the bible Religion is not a negative thing. It is extremely important in our world. In fact it is the driving force for almost everything. Faith of some kind that is.



I just think that there are better things to base your life off of. It's not that Jesus didn't preach great things, it's just that it's so damn easy to misinterpret the Bible. Wouldn't it be better if people followed a book that didn't have so many contradictions and passages that are difficult to understand? Or even better, what if they just acted like decent human beings without using a book as the reason for it? I don't know, it seems to me that it's time to move beyond the Bible. Maybe that's whats happening, ever so slowly.

quote:Originally posted by Siash:

My best friend is atheist, and I go to church on Sundays. We have no problem respecting each others beliefs, so, what the fuck is all your problems?

The problem is not the mild mannered moderate Christians such as yourself. It is when we start getting extremists who force their beliefs on us into government (e.g. supreme court justice Alito). This not only causes problems for atheists it also disenfranchises

other religions as well as moderate Christians.

To see the effects of this all that must be done is to compare America to any other industrialized nation and you may notice that we are the only one that continues to refuse to accept evolution in the public education system. I mean come the fuck on even if you do not believe any of the current explanations as to how this phenomenon happens it is still observable through the fossil record and macro evolution can be observed in real time in fruit flies in laboratories. Denying this evidence would be similar to refuting the phenomenon known as lighting simply because we do not know how it strikes.



(AND JUST TO BE AN ASSHOLE IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION DON'T GET A FUCKING FLU SHOT)

if u don't get the last bit u need to do some reading pronto

[/rant]

[This message has been edited by the dillinger escape plan (edited 12-08-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by stormshadowftb:

yes i respect the mentally retarded person in the street and don't point and laugh but i don't want him driving my bus!!!!

FUCKING A!!!!

quote:Originally posted by VictimKing:

WTF? I just don't understand how people can still be Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu or any religion. It was great 3,000+ years ago when it explained why the sky spit water and what fire was, but now it's hard to understand why people still follow this stuff. I mean, pretty much everything that has to do with religion has been disproved. Any arguements?

Dude, i mean like WTF!?!

First off, d'you honestly think religion is about "why the sky spit water and what fire was"?? It ain't some old version of science, it's not supposed to explain natural processes. Those were some old speculations ppl did back when they din't understand stuff.

Religion's about beleiving in higher entities like god(s), angels, demons, human soul etc. and following a set of ideals/morals.

You coming here saying that religious ppl think fire is some magical wonder makes you look like a retard.

Second, you coming to the religion forum and telling how religious ppl are idiots is like some dude going to a basketball game just so he could tell ppl how much basketball sucks.

If you don't like it, then get the fuck out.

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

I'm not a religious, but I do try to respect peoples religion's as much as possible.

True, a lot of religious beliefs can be considered outdated. However, if one finds solace in their chosen religion then what is the hurt? As long as they do not impose their beliefs on me I am cool with it.

Although, an arguement can definitely be made that religion is the cause of many of the world's problems today.

Basically, I do not care what someones beliefs are, as long as they are good people and do not impose themselves upon me.

Very well said.

The only real issue I have with religion is that it stops people from taking responsibility for their own actions.

"it's fate, a miricale, destiny" "Oh it was meant to happen." "God has a plan"

Screw that, stop sitting around waiting for something to happen to/for you and take responsibility for your own life.

>=O!! =)

quote:Originally posted by Siash:

My best friend is atheist, and I go to church on Sundays. We have no problem respecting each others beliefs, so, what the fuck is all your problems?

Some people take themself too darn serious.

I call the beginning and end, the past, present, and future, God.

What I don't do, is pretend to know what the fuck God really is and impose it on people. I get along with atheists just fine...chances are, they believe in the same thing I do, they just don't call it a god, whereas I see the totality of existence worthy of being called God.

quote:Originally posted by VictimKing:

WTF? I just don't understand how people can still be Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu or any religion. It was great 3,000+ years ago when it explained why the sky spit water and what fire was, but now it's hard to understand why people still follow this stuff. I mean, pretty much everything that has to do with religion has been disproved. Any arguements?

Religion is ancient bullshit, science is present day bullshit.

Dont you belive in magic?

Religion may be sketchy, but fact is ghosts exist. If you ignore that, you are ignorant http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)



Seriously.

Dear friends,

A stereotype limits all views and oppinions. It is a negative concept that causes thoughts to follow a narrow road. Oppinions are great, but when brought to a table of facts they mean nothing unless they follow the facts. You have claimed that religion is disproved. On what basis? Macroevolution is an extremely flawed theory. I do not throw it out completely but there are too many holes for me to give it much weight. Therefore science has not disproven God. Humans fail no matter what they do. It is true throughout history. Our cultures go in cycles and we are therefore doomed to fail again. It can also be observed that as people stray more and more away from the high moral standards of religion society decays. God will exist whether we wish him to or not and he has indeed come to us. He has made himself visible through suffering and the cross. For it is true, no one can comprhend the Lord. Thus the Lord has come down in Christ and given us hope. We have fallen and indeed deserve no good thing. Yet all people, though we are all evil by nature through the corruption of original sin, recieve blessings every day. We depend on rain, crops, animals and many other things of this earth and this earth indeed seems to be created. Thus we come full circle to the Lord, we must indeed bow down before his majesty whether believing or not, for he is simply too awesome for us to stand. We are poor and miserable sinners, corruption, sickness and other evils plague us every day, but the Lord has given us his son, Jesus Christ, that we may have hope and be assured that it is not through our actions, which could never recieve merit, but his alone that we are saved. This faith is of course created in us by the Lord when we decide that we are not god and can do nothing but cling to the cross for salvation. Sorry for the long post but sometimes it is needed to explain all. Christianity stands alone in giving grace, for it is not arrogant enough to claim that people could claim redemption by their own actions. Thus ... religions may be old, but the Lord is eternal and thus will always be present though he has shown himself through Christ alone. Bring me refutations and I will answer them to the best of my abilities if you have them.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Religion is ancient bullshit, science is present day bullshit.

saying science is bullshit just proves how retarded you are

quote:Originally posted by VictimKing:

Any arguements?

Only with your definition of religion, it seems that religion has become a byword for dogma and closed mindedness whereas it has a very different meaning for many of us. I like this definition from The Kybalion.

quote:(At this point, it may be proper for me to state that we make a distinction between Religion and Theology--between Philosophy and Metaphysics. Religion, to us, means that intuitional realization of the existence of THE ALL, and one's relationship to it; while Theology means the attempts of men to ascribe personality, qualities, and characteristics to it; their theories regarding its affairs, will, desires, plans, and designs, and their assumption of the office of ''middle-men'' between THE ALL and the people. Philosophy, to us, means the inquiry after knowledge of things knowable and thinkable; while Metaphysical means the attempt to carry the inquiry over and beyond the boundaries and into regions unknowable and unthinkable, and with the same tendency as that of Theology. And consequently, both Religion and Philosophy mean to us things having roots in Reality, while Theology and Metaphysics seem like broken reeds, rooted in the quicksands of ignorance, and affording naught but the most insecure support for the mind or soul of Man. we do not insist upon our students accepting these definitions--we mention them merely to show our position. At any rate, you shall hear very little about Theology and Metaphysics in these lessons.)

peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Dear friends,

A stereotype limits all views and oppinions. It is a negative concept that causes thoughts to follow a narrow road. Oppinions are great, but when brought to a table of facts they mean nothing unless they follow the facts. You have claimed that religion is disproved. On what basis? Macroevolution is an extremely flawed theory. I do not throw it out completely but there are too many holes for me to give it much weight.

Therefore science has not disproven God.



That means nothing, since you have not proven God. There are many things were can't disprove, like Santa Claus, unicorns and the Omniscient Masturbation Monster.

Correct, macroevolution is flawed. Lamarck's theory was disproved by Mendel. Microevolution

is generally accepted.

quote:

Humans fail no matter what they do. It is true throughout history. Our cultures go in cycles and we are therefore doomed to fail again.



How do mean our cultures go in cycles? As far as I see it we are gradually evolving.

quote:

It can also be observed that as people stray more and more away from the high moral standards of religion society decays.



If we took all our morals for religion we'd be killing people for working on the Sabbath and slavery would be widely accepted.

It is not religion which decides which morals we adhere to and which we do not.

A statistic from a video on Youtube said that atheists make up 1% of the population of America, yet make up 0.1% of the prisoner population.

quote:

God will exist whether we wish him to or not and he has indeed come to us. He has made himself visible through suffering and the cross.



Both those statements are unsupported by any reason. Why doesn't he make himself visible in a way we'd know he exists. Or does 'God work in mysterious ways'?

quote:

For it is true, no one can comprhend the Lord. Thus the Lord has come down in Christ and given us hope.



Another great get out clause. If we can't comprehend him what reason does somebody have for believing in him?

quote:

We have fallen and indeed deserve no good thing. Yet all people, though we are all evil by nature through the corruption of original sin, recieve blessings every day.



More rubbish. How on earth is somebody born with original sin?

quote:

We depend on rain, crops, animals and many other things of this earth and this earth indeed seems to be created.



We depend on those things for life in our current form. Suppose there was no rain, life could have evolved in a different way, one that doesn't require rain to survive.

quote:

Thus we come full circle to the Lord,



You assume that because any theory doesn't work, the accepted answer is theism. Hardly.

quote:

we must indeed bow down before his majesty whether believing or not, for he is simply too awesome for us to stand.



Who are you to say that people must bow down before somebody? Followed by the same old get out clause.

quote:

We are poor and miserable sinners, corruption, sickness and other evils plague us every day,



Such a sickeningly defeatist attitude. If everybody was like you humanity wouldn't have progressed at all.

quote:

but the Lord has given us his son, Jesus Christ, that we may have hope and be assured that it is not through our actions, which could never recieve merit, but his alone that we are saved. This faith is of course created in us by the Lord when we decide that we are not god and can do nothing but cling to the cross for salvation.



You're once again making claims without a shred of evidence.



[This message has been edited by Kooper0 (edited 12-10-2006).]

If I was God, I would have done things much, much, much more differently. In fact, I was just thinking about the changes I would make and realized how imperfect the Christian God is, based on this world alone.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Hmmm, I very much like the definitions posed in that quote - I suppose I'd classify myself as a religious philosopher under those definitions.

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

True, a lot of religious beliefs can be considered outdated. However, if one finds solace in their chosen religion then what is the hurt? As long as they do not impose their beliefs on me I am cool with it.

Religeon teaches people to follow blindly, which isn't good in any context.

Also, 90% of Christians, if given the chance, will try and impose their beleifs upon you.

quote:Originally posted by Nidias_91:

Religeon teaches people to follow blindly, which isn't good in any context.

Also, 90% of Christians, if given the chance, will try and impose their beleifs upon you.



78.5% of statistics are made up

Most Christians (including every one I've ever met) are severely lacking in the whole logic, rational thinking department.

The arguments they use are just arguments from emotion and every logical fallacy in the book. I don't know if they use them because they think I'm stupid, or they really ARE that stupid. I've ever encountered a great Christian debator in real life. Only on the internet, and no, I'm not talking about Digital Savior. At best their discussions will be stimulating, but never thought-provoking or convincing. They will still quote the Bible and use religious rhetoric.

Another annoying thing is when they bring up bad science from a creationist website. Do they not understand that they're just starting with a conclusion and twisting things to support it? People just believe what they WANT to be true, rather than be honest with themselves or admit being unsure. That's what faith comes down to.

All of this should be a no-brainer. I'm just ranting.

Humility before god/nature grants you piece of mind.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:



Humility before god/nature grants you piece of mind.

Indeed; I think the dispute is over the attempts of the proud to impose theologies in vain.

More than that, I believe boozehound has simply noticed and taken offense to the massive hypocrisy in the act of evangelism in the name of a theology that drives many people away from the path of finding a humble nature..."Remove the beam from your own eye before removing the sliver from another's." It appears the evangelists are trying to force a path to enlightenment and salvation upon others when their own misery is evident.

Truly, I think the better method of evangelism to be the bettering of one's self in the name of God as an example to others of what faith has accomplished in your life; there is no need to preach, no need to condemn, no need to judge, no need to exclude those who don't believe - it is for God, not your own glorification as a 'converter of heathens'.

I am at peace in my life, and it is through my faith that I am.

yyap. and besides being bullshit it only fucks up.

*who started the crusades?

[1]little rabbits [2]an UFO [3]christians

*who were the guys mainly killed in holocaust?

[1]JW's [2] failed actors [3]batman and robin

i'm not givig a money prize to the guy who answers.

quote:Originally posted by mtz666:

yyap. and besides being bullshit it only fucks up.

*who started the crusades?

[1]little rabbits [2]an UFO [3]christians

*who were the guys mainly killed in holocaust?

[1]JW's [2] failed actors [3]batman and robin

i'm not givig a money prize to the guy who answers.



I'll be going by christianity here, seeing as we're using that example. But the people who started the crusades were not chrsitian. They may have claimed to be christian , but in fact they were not ... uhh... crusading for the sake off god, but for the ske of themselves.

It ,as in religion itself, rarely fucks anything up , it is the people who claim to adhere to a religion who fuck it up. It openly says in the bible not to go around killing everyone, to love your neighbour, etc , So why would you start a crusade if following these rules? Relgion is not the cause, but a means used for an individula to achieve their own means.

Would you say that a person who deliberately fires a gun at another person is innocent and that the gun itself commited the crime? In the same way you cannot blame a religion for what people choose to do with it.

Although , you could argue that point if you wish.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

I'll be going by christianity here, seeing as we're using that example. But the people who started the crusades were not chrsitian. They may have claimed to be christian , but in fact they were not ... uhh... crusading for the sake off god, but for the ske of themselves.

It ,as in religion itself, rarely fucks anything up , it is the people who claim to adhere to a religion who fuck it up. It openly says in the bible not to go around killing everyone, to love your neighbour, etc , So why would you start a crusade if following these rules? Relgion is not the cause, but a means used for an individula to achieve their own means.

Would you say that a person who deliberately fires a gun at another person is innocent and that the gun itself commited the crime? In the same way you cannot blame a religion for what people choose to do with it.

Although , you could argue that point if you wish.

I agree for the most part. I do believe that religion in it's self can be pure, but the followers often fuck it up.

However, there is a fault to this arguement. The Bible has a lot of great moral teachings that we should all try to live our life by, but there are also many passages that teach us hate, intolerance, and ignorance.

religon is born out the unknown. they didnt know why a valcano erupted, so they said someting made it, a god.

religion no longer serves the purpose of explaining the world around us.

we have science for that.

however, we still have a need for religion.

every human wants to attain true happiness, joy. this is where religion comes into play. it helps you forgive yourself, to become at peace with yourself, and those around you. it helps give people a reason for being.

religion doesn't have to be christianity, islam, hinduism - it is a belief and practice that helps you acheive a satisfaction that isn't ephemeral, but born of itself.

i don't practice any organized religion, but I do think that empirical knowledge and the posession of things will not make me happy in the end.

if religion helps an individual attain that, please, tell me how it is simply ancient bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by bitplane:



the only truths are mathematical, everything else is just a bunch of words babbled by apes trying to make sense of the universe.

QFT.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Religion is ancient bullshit, science is present day bullshit.

I sincerely hope that one day you are denied anti-cancer drugs on the basis that the science behind them is bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by Slave of the Beast:

I sincerely hope that one day you are denied anti-cancer drugs on the basis that the science behind them is bullshit.

Just because something's bullshit doesn't mean that it isn't useful ....

....Look at me...

...>Wait.... I'm not actually all that useful....