God is all-powerful. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Maybe that's why there are so many bad things in the world. Maybe the power went to his head.

For those who believe in him, and that he is all-good, how do you know he's not just using his power to make you think that?

Cheers,

con (http://caught22.com)juror

if god exists, he must be evil.

god sucks

Maybe, if God exists (and I'm convinced that It desn't), It can't be defined under either good or evil. A being of absolute power might transcend the human ideas of morality.

But if you do want to apply these terms to It, then God is almost certianly evil. Only a malevolent being could create such an absurd world.

quote:Originally posted by Kykeon:

But if you do want to apply these terms to It, then God is almost certianly evil. Only a malevolent being could create such an absurd world.

What's absurd about the world?

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

if god exists, he must be evil.

If he was evil things would be a lot worse.

quote:Originally posted by gmail:

god sucks



^Interesting. When I was a freshman in college, I made a sign that said this , put it up to annoy my roomie, who was a raving fundie.

Back to topic--at the highest metaphysical level, there are no such things as good and evil. These are labels we place on things that e approve of, or do nto approve of. What we choose to so label says more about us thn about th things we label.

the world is as it is because we--all of us--want it that way.

Take world hunger, for instance--all the countries of the world combined spend about $1 trillion a year for wars--trying to kill each other. If this money would go to humanitarian purposes, there would be no more war or hunger or homelessness in the world, and no one would have to give up any of the material riches they have now.

Evil is a matter of perception.

quote:Originally posted by BondageNinja:

Evil is a matter of perception.

You're correct that statement is true by all means.

Luther declared that since god sprang humanity out of the fruit of earth's loin so we could utilize the earth. or alonng those general lines. the point is - god is nice, otherwise - there would've been more natural disasters. don'tcha think??

you cant consider God as a person

good,and evil can't exist without each other.Humanity,earth,universe might be god,with all of our talents combined,but god has no defination who/what god is.So how can there be good,if there is no evil?

If got did exist then he would be all, good and evil. But since he does not he is neither. Duh. (http://tinyurl.com/yhyf3j)

well think of it this way. in the old testament god would come to a prophet or general and say go in and genocide a tribe or race of people. now most people would agree that genocide isent right but thats the idea of god. god is good so if god comes down and tells you to fuck your mom and u do it he would make it not wrong to fuck your mom. the only problem with this idea is that i or u can claim to see god and that he is telling us to shoot and kill everyone the comes within a 2 foot radius so the break down of christianity or most religions is that u claim that genocide is ok because god said so but "gods voice" isent measureable

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

What's absurd about the world?

It doesn't seem absurd to you? I think that ArmsMerchant layed out one reason pretty well up there. We spend time killing each other when everyone would be better off through cooperation. Why? Wouldn't it be easier to put down the weapons and just work together. But people insist on making it difficult, claiming that it's "more complicated that that", when really, it isn't.

It's just the way I percieve the world. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, or maybe it's not definite either way.

nietsche should have said god is irrelevant and skipped writing all that bs

God: Hmmmmm. These humans will become smart and not have faith in me anymore if i have complete power from their faith. I must make a evil to make it seem like i dont have all the power and make them scared to go to with him instead of me. Yes, that's perfect. Now I must make a group of dumbasses to spread the word. I shall call these people christians. Now i need a son. Satan of the underworld, get your fucking ass over here.

Satan: You don't have to be so mean to me God. Your evil you know.

G: Yeah, yeah, STFU you whining emo bitch and get in the prison position.

S: It's your fault I'm a whining emo bitch because you ceated me. Repent from your sins God. Don't do this to me.

G: Repent? Fuck you! I'm going in!!!!!

(72 hours later)

G: Fuck that took a long time.

S: It's because you kept going soft.

G: Well, fucking something I created doesn't exactly turn me on.

(Sometime into the future)

Jesus: Daddy, why do I have to sacrifice my body just so humans can believe in you.

G: You ask too many fucking questions. Now hurry up and go get nailed to that big plus sign and scream 'Forgive them, Father, for Satan is posessing them.'

J: Why would my own mother possess me?

G: Jesus. It's time i told you. You have two daddies.

J: Fuck you. I won't do what you tell me.

G: Get your fucking ass down there, NOW!!!!!

J: Fine then!!!

(Sometime later)

DudeWhoLooksLikeJesus: So if I do this, I'll be free to go to 'Heaven'?

J: Sure, whatever. I just need to look like I'm immortal so peole will listen to me.

DWLLJ: OK, I'm off.

(Sometime later after the cruxcifiction or whatever)

J: I am immortal. Nothing can kill me.

.....Forever.

RandomMan#1: It's a miracle.

J: Fuck yea it is. Now i will present you mortals with a bag of coke. You sniff it upthrough some kind of straw u can find or make. Or eat it. I really don't give a fuck how you use it. Just make sure you use it.

ThePeople: Jesus forever.

(Sometime Later with God)

G: Why the FUCK didn't you die?

J: I had shit to do and people i need you to make. BTW, did some dude who looks like me come by?

G: Yeah, I sent his immediatly to Satan, which should have been you. Now about these people i have to make.

J: They will do two things. Give the christians someone to bitch at and spread more word about you. The Buddhists I shall call these people.

G: I see more entertainment for me. I'm glad you didn't die(yet).

J: You say something?

G: Naw, naw. Let's come up with different kinds of more people, OK son?

J: Well now we're talking. I have a group of people called Niggers. We shall put them in a desert.

G: Where do you come up with your shit?

J: Now, whites will eventually take them away from there and into another place not so death like. There will be waiting a group of white people called the KKK.

G: This sounds interesting.

J: Not yet. Next, there's these two groups call the Naziz and Jews.........

(So on and so forth. To sum this fucking shit up, they use humans for entertainment and what's giving them power is faith.

So stop believing to stop suffering is the moral of the story.)



[This message has been edited by psyc213 (edited 12-09-2006).]

time for me to play devils advocate

metephysics aside, evil doesn't exist because everything is god and god isn't evil.

quote:Originally posted by MongolianThroatCancer:

metephysics aside, evil doesn't exist because everything is god and god isn't evil.

Actually, if we were talking Spinoza-type naturalist pantheism, I would agree with you: everything is divine, and there is no objective good and bad. But since it appears that we are talking about the Judaist personal God, I would have to say that he would most certainly be evil.

quote:Originally posted by MongolianThroatCancer:

time for me to play devils advocate

metephysics aside, evil doesn't exist because everything is god and god isn't evil.

Playing devil's advocate properly doesn't involve circular reasoning. The Judeo-Christian-Islamic God says He is all good, yet admits that evil exists.

God is reading this thread now, and he is pissed, i think. Or happy.

The good news is, we all love each other.

I believe that god is good.

its just that...he's an apathetic underachiever.

From a theistic sense, yes, he is. Look at the old testament.

From a deistic sense, he is neither good nor evil.

Good is defined by God. Otherwise it's just moral relativistic bullshit.

Not only is he all powerful, he is ALL KNOWING.

If anything, God is arbitrary.

But in most religions (that I can think of off the top of my head, feel free to let me know if I'm wrong), God is by definition perfect, or at least good by nature. If you're coming at a God from a different set of moral standards than those that that religion specifies, then it's quite possible He would seem evil, but if that God were real, then your point of view about evil would be wrong. So I'd say no.

Well, according to the OT of the Bible it was ONE God that both Cursed Man and Blessed Man. There is Man's Good and Evil.

And it was One God that Blessed the Earth and One God that Cursed the Earth. Like the story goes, it doesn't take two. One will do. God "Is," Good or Evil, He is. God Blesses, God Curses. God made Heaven and God made Hell. God is the King of Heaven and the King of Hell, and God decides who goes where. But hey, you read that story, didn't you?

quote:Originally posted by vazilizaitsev89:



its just that...he's an apathetic underachiever.

I might be God!?

If something existed at the level of "God", I'm sure our definition of good and evil wouldn't really apply.

To answer your question, there is no reason to suggest that other planets can't exist with water under their surface, as well as other geological features.

P.s smoke this weed

quote:Originally posted by gmail:

god sucks



QFT

Genesis teaches us that God can get pissed.

The entire old testament teaches us god is a infanticidal, megalomaniacial, pestilential, homophobic genocidal maniac who hates most everyone.

quote:Originally posted by Kooper0:

From a theistic sense, yes, he is. Look at the old testament.

From a deistic sense, he is neither good nor evil.

Good point, but even from a deistic sense if he's all knowing and all powerful, he fully knew what he was doing. He knew he was unleashing a species that has rapists, child molesters, murderers, the KKK, the Nazis...

He knew he was doing that, but he created them anyway. It's like creating a robot that you know full well will harm women and children, and then unleashing it anyway, and saying after you release it, "Well, I'm not going to do anything about it now." That is fucking evil in my opinion.

Love,

conjuror

Caught22 (http://caught22.com)

quote:Originally posted by Kykeon:

Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

What's absurd about the world?

It doesn't seem absurd to you? I think that ArmsMerchant layed out one reason pretty well up there. We spend time killing each other when everyone would be better off through cooperation. Why? Wouldn't it be easier to put down the weapons and just work together. But people insist on making it difficult, claiming that it's "more complicated that that", when really, it isn't.

It's just the way I percieve the world. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, or maybe it's not definite either way.

I percieve people as absurd; thanks to science, I find the world rather comprehensible and ordered.

quote:Originally posted by Kykeon:

Maybe, if God exists (and I'm convinced that It desn't), It can't be defined under either good or evil. A being of absolute power might transcend the human ideas of morality.

But if you do want to apply these terms to It, then God is almost certianly evil. Only a malevolent being could create such an absurd world.



Or maybe...

DUN.

DUN..

DUN.....

there is no higher morality.

quote:Originally posted by conjuror:

God is all-powerful. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Maybe that's why there are so many bad things in the world. Maybe the power went to his head.

For those who believe in him, and that he is all-good, how do you know he's not just using his power to make you think that?

Cheers,

con (http://caught22.com)juror

I don't think it's a jedi mind trick - those who have seen the contrast of evil and good aren't forced to understand it but accept it as true.

I don't think we can try to understand the morality imposed by God and then reason to it's outcome. We don't have a viewpoint in the universe to understand the intricacies of it all. However, evil, as I've said before is a relative thing. A person who does "evil" doesn't think it's a bad thing but that it is good. A person who does evil thinks that those who oppose them doing evil are the evil ones. Consider it and figure out why you stand where you do on this?

Deception is evil on all fronts as it hides the truth and intent with a facade of a false truth. The outcome of living a life in line within the mandates of God leads to a good life of peace, joy and contentment.

Before I accepted Jesus, I had to try to be good. Now that I have accepted Jesus, I have to try to be bad. It all comes down to what team you bat for?





[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 12-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Nidias_91:



Or maybe...

DUN.

DUN..

DUN.....

there is no higher morality.

That kind of makes it convienient to just walk away from it.

The bible explains the characteristics of a perfect man which can not be obtained. It sets a standard so high that we would need be divine to live it.

With that I can understand why so many just dismiss it -

I can't follow all the rules either but that isn't what it's about. It's about the condition of one's heart and mind and how it overflows into our actions as to how we respond and treat one another. That is the true definition of God and the life he wants us to live.

To love someone is the greatest enemy to the devil as he wants nothing but to destroy relationships and all of what God created.

To say that God doesn't exist is like saying that love doesn't exist. We would have to agree that true love is a spiritual thing and not a biological thing. That means - that which rules the spiritual defines the laws of love so that we may be able to discern when we see and experience it and when we do not.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

However, evil, as I've said before is a relative thing. A person who does "evil" doesn't think it's a bad thing but that it is good. A person who does evil thinks that those who oppose them doing evil are the evil ones. Consider it and figure out why you stand where you do on this?

Fair enough, in many cases you're right about the relativity.

However, there are evil people, I'm sure, who do their evil actions without thinking that they're good, but they can't control themselves. Child molesters, child abusers, rapists, drug addicts (alcoholics), murderers, people (some totseans) who torture animals to death -- maybe a few of those would actually apply to moral relativism, but I think in most of those cases the people KNOW they're doing bad things. They know they're doing evil, and they just don't care. There's no "relativism" involved.

And an all-knowing and all-powerful god created them and set them into motion - knowing they would do the evil things they did? Well, that's relatively not cool at all, from my perspective.

God is everything!

If you believe that good and evil exist. Then god is both good and evil.

Make of God what you will. Be creative.

OP, semantics don't define God. Just unloading phrases suggesting the corruptibility of a person in power doesn't instantaneously mean God has been corrupted.

As per definition, God cannot be corrupted. Utmost perfection, remember?

quote:Originally posted by socratic:

OP, semantics don't define God. Just unloading phrases suggesting the corruptibility of a person in power doesn't instantaneously mean God has been corrupted.

As per definition, God cannot be corrupted. Utmost perfection, remember?

Oh. OP, that's Original Poster, right?

The phrases I unloaded in the original post weren't meant to be a conclusion. They were meant to start a discussion. That's why the topic is a question.

Think of it this way. God is "utmost perfection," whatever the fuck that may be. He is also all powerful and all knowing. He might, for instance, know that a young child somewhere is about to be sexually assaulted, enslaved, or raped.

If you knew that, and had the power to stop it, and you didn't, I think you're evil. If I knew that, had the power to stop it, and didn't, I think I'm evil. Why hold God to a lower standard than ourselves?

Or another way.

He knew when creating man that he had created men with freewill that would choose to do things like the Holocaust. Yet he unleashed humanity anyway. If I were God and I created humans with freewill, yet I knew some humans would try to wipe out a race of other humans, would kill 6 million of them in the process, would create an atomic bomb, use the atomic bomb, 9/11, My Lai massacre, Oklahoma city bombing, slavery, lynchings, Abu Ghraib, decapitations, child pornographers, etc. and I have the power to make them so they don't do that, so innocent people don't have to die or be abused, then I would do that. and If i did it anyway, I would consider myself to be pretty evil - certainly not good.

quote:Originally posted by conjuror:

Oh. OP, that's Original Poster, right?

The phrases I unloaded in the original post weren't meant to be a conclusion. They were meant to start a discussion. That's why the topic is a question.

Think of it this way. God is "utmost perfection," whatever the fuck that may be. He is also all powerful and all knowing. He might, for instance, know that a young child somewhere is about to be sexually assaulted, enslaved, or raped.

If you knew that, and had the power to stop it, and you didn't, I think you're evil. If I knew that, had the power to stop it, and didn't, I think I'm evil. Why hold God to a lower standard than ourselves?

First of all, you're applying a human standard to an omnipotent being. To put it in to perspective, that's like an amoeba telling you how to go about business.

Second of all, human evil supposedly comes about due to humanity's free-will, which God did not revoke or fully impose himself upon. If evil comes about due to this free will, and God, in creating mankind, gave us freedom, is it God's fault for not intervening, or is it humanity's fault for doing it at all?

Besides, God, by definition, is omnipotent. You aren't. You are yet to see the consequences at the end of the line, and he already knows it. Right from the get-go God not only knows better than you, but his intentions are lost to you. Perhaps because you misconstrue these intentions as apathy, you consider God to be evil when really he's doing the right thing?

Free-will causes natural disasters and diseases like cancer? Tell a six year old girl she got cancer because of free-will, and it's "god's way".

In fact, tell a little boy that he was sexually molested by his parents because God didn't want to intervene with their "free-will".

And tell an atheist who was a good person that he has to spend eternity suffering in hell simply for hurting God's ego by not believing in him, and that he had to die early because god didn't want to intervene with the "free-will" of the man who murdered him, allowing the atheist to die and go to hell all the sooner!

quote:Originally posted by socratic:

Right from the get-go God not only knows better than you, but his intentions are lost to you. Perhaps because you misconstrue these intentions as apathy, you consider God to be evil when really he's doing the right thing?

That's kind of the point. His intentions are lost to everyone. Perhaps you misconstrue these acts of evil as being part of a master plan, a final solution, if you will, when really they're just acts of evil.

Raw_Power, I like what you have to say. What I might say, only said better.

quote:Originally posted by BondageNinja:

Evil is a matter of perception.

i couldnt agree more.

good and evil are just points of view.

quote:Originally posted by El Coolio:

i couldnt agree more.

good and evil are just points of view.

I couldn't agree less. That is fucking bullshit.

Does this help? If god exists, could he be what a rational human would perceive to be evil?

I perceive rape to be evil. You do, too. If you know someone is being raped, and you have the power to stop it, and you don't, that's evil. You really wanna argue that can be perceived as good?

quote:Originally posted by conjuror:

That's kind of the point. His intentions are lost to everyone. Perhaps you misconstrue these acts of evil as being part of a master plan, a final solution, if you will, when really they're just acts of evil.

That's an interesting point, considering either view is equally unprovable, since it's a matter of omnipotence.

That's an interesting point that God could be evil through inaction, too, but then again, the actions of a supreme being could be impossible to follow by our means. Then again, God could be deliberately causing these things. The problem is that when debating the issues of God, too many answers can come up blank.

quote:Originally posted by conjuror:

Fair enough, in many cases you're right about the relativity.

However, there are evil people, I'm sure, who do their evil actions without thinking that they're good, but they can't control themselves.

I don't believe that people have no control over their actions. In fact I firmly believe our actions testify to what kind of person we truely are. If a person can't stop doing evil then that is their character. The desire to do good is not a normal nor natural thing in the great majority of us.



quote:

Child molesters, child abusers, rapists, drug addicts (alcoholics), murderers, people (some totseans) who torture animals to death -- maybe a few of those would actually apply to moral relativism, but I think in most of those cases the people KNOW they're doing bad things. They know they're doing evil, and they just don't care. There's no "relativism" involved.

I agree - relativism is an indication of a conscience reaction in either direction. What you are talking about are people who are void of consciense response of anything right or wrong. I believe the term is psychotic.

quote:

And an all-knowing and all-powerful god created them and set them into motion - knowing they would do the evil things they did? Well, that's relatively not cool at all, from my perspective.

Nobody knows why He created us with the ability to think and create along with a free will. The bible says we are made inthe image and likeness of God. I'm assuming that includes the freedom to choose to create good or create bad. That I believee is the key to understanding the meaning of life.

The purpose of all this we call life is to "seperate the wheat from the chaff" that is to find the flawed product and seperate it. Someone who follows a morale relative path still has a conscience of the difference of right or wrong. But what you are talking about are the ones who have the wires crossed.

God created us for His purpose and within the complexity of it all - our short lives on this planet is just a test and trial period for the rest of our eternity.

The bible gives us the rules and standards - we either conform or we don't. Nobody can force anybody to go either way. However, in the end there will still be a decision made of who is or isn't understanding their lot in life. That is - to be a servant of God.

When we are talking about pre-destination - we are talking about the purpose for why we are created. We are all pre-destined to be a servent. More specifically a servent to God. However, it is our purpose to serve something.

Some of us will choose not to serve God but, we must understand that we will choose to serve something else either by choise or the lack of knowledge. We have to understand that if we choose not to be with God then how can He be with us? This is true on all levels globally, nationally and personally. If I reject God then what else can He do but watch the horizon and wait for us to come back. Even after He sends His messangers out for us while we are in the desert - we still turn away.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 12-16-2006).]

Basically we've people show that given the definitions and circumstances, God could be good.

That is granted. All the shit in the world today could be part of "His purpose," a good and eternal purpose, a wonderful and morally relatavistic purpose that we don't fully understand.

But we haven't seen anyone, to my knowledge or satisfaction, show why an all-knowing and all-powerful Creator could not be evil. I'm not talking about us believing he's all good. An all-powerful Being could make us think that. He could make us think anything he wanted. If mortals can make us fall for stupid shit, certainly an all-power god could, too.

Cheers,

conjuror

caught22.com (http://caught22.com)