My friend is currently studying A-level physics and economics and is generally a smart guy. But when we began discussing his idea of God, I became quite disturbed.

After reading this article, I would like your opinion on what it is that makes intelligent people hold irrational, non-falsifiable beliefs that make utterly no sense?

I'm Jarl S. Berg, my friend is Mr. Right.

quote:Mr. Right says:

fucking schools

Jarl S. Berg says:

They indoctrinate you to be like everyone else and know your place, grind you down

Mr. Right says:

and that's why i believe in God, and that he made me ill

Mr. Right says:

or i'm just really lucky

Mr. Right says:

and all this pain was worthwhile

Jarl S. Berg says:

The kids in Minehead seem fucking lifeless, and they're idea of a good time is getting drunk, and then there's those who think they are smart just because they can name the theories of Freud and took a psych class.

Mr. Right says:

i was a gental child, i wasn't used to be shouted at

Mr. Right says:

and my mom told me not to fight

Mr. Right says:

so i thought she meant don;t fight back

Mr. Right says:

this one kid used to bully me

Mr. Right says:

i went to his house once and his brother tried to pick on me too and i just hit him

Mr. Right says:

and he was always in awe of me

Mr. Right says:

even though i completely forgot all about hitting him by the next day

Jarl S. Berg says:

Why did you go to the house of your bully?

Mr. Right says:

my mom too #k me

Mr. Right says:

she also told me about hitting his brother

Jarl S. Berg says:

ok...

Jarl S. Berg says:

I think that if I believed in god, I would be a deist or a pantheist

Jarl S. Berg says:

Most likely a pantheist, since that would sort out the problem of evil.

Mr. Right says:

i think God knows all that could happen, but not exactly what, so he tries and influences people, but they have free will and can ignore him

Jarl S. Berg says:

mmmhmmm

Mr. Right says:

and then you might suffer, but it's part of a plan

Mr. Right says:

and if you accept it you can go further than by fighting it

Jarl S. Berg says:

So Hitler was all part of the plan?

Mr. Right says:

he could have ignored God

Jarl S. Berg says:

lol

Jarl S. Berg says:

So becase he ignored God, God let all of this Jewish people die and didn't intervene?

Mr. Right says:

well he did

Mr. Right says:

that's why england and france had an alliance with Poland

Mr. Right says:

and when hitler invaded it caused the war

Jarl S. Berg says:

oh, ok, but maybe that's just England and France figuring they should do something without the influence of a God.

Jarl S. Berg says:

I know that if I was a God, I would have intervened and not let all of those Jewish people been gassed.

Mr. Right says:

the devil too

Mr. Right says:

well in my theory he isn;t all powerful

Mr. Right says:

he can;t do anything without humans

Jarl S. Berg says:

ok...

Mr. Right says:

and so he has to work through people

Jarl S. Berg says:

So instead of people seeing bad things happening and trying to sort them out on their own, there's this semi-powerful being working through us and trying to influence us to do what he considers the right thing?

Mr. Right says:

no, humans will try and fix it

Mr. Right says:

it's free will

Mr. Right says:

but he'll try and influence people

Mr. Right says:

so they might do as he desires

Mr. Right says:

but they might not

Jarl S. Berg says:

right

Mr. Right says:

people don;t always fix bad things

Jarl S. Berg says:

but when they do it's because of god?

Mr. Right says:

well he's told them it;s the right thing to do, but he might not tell them what will fix it

Jarl S. Berg says:

Why would he do that?

Mr. Right says:

because there's more than one way to skin a cat

Jarl S. Berg says:

Yes, but why would he not recommend at least one method?

Mr. Right says:

well he might

Mr. Right says:

he might not

Jarl S. Berg says:

Why? Does he just work on a whim?

Mr. Right says:

well people pray to him, and he trys to realise these prayers, but they won't just happen, he'll just make it easier

Jarl S. Berg says:

Why do people need to pray to him? Wouldn't he know what they need before they pray?

Mr. Right says:

he's not all knowing

Mr. Right says:

just most knowing

Jarl S. Berg says:

So he's not knowing enough to know what a human needs before a human prays for it even though a human would know what they are going to pray for before they pray for it?

Mr. Right says:

he doesn't control us

Jarl S. Berg says:

Did I say he controls us?

Jarl S. Berg says:

That's not what I'm saying.

Jarl S. Berg says:

What I am saying is that generally people have problems and know what they are going to pray for before they pray for it, surely he would know as well then? I mean, God can't know what's on our minds at all times now?

Mr. Right says:

well once they know what they are going to pary about that's kinda their prayer, they don;t need to bow down

Mr. Right says:

it's not like you need to be in a spesific position

Jarl S. Berg says:

I'm not saying you need to be in a specific position, I don't think you get what I'm saying...

Jarl S. Berg says:

Anyways, you believe God has a plan for everyone but that people can also petition the lord with prayer?

Mr. Right says:

when they decide what they want to pray for he'd know

Mr. Right says:

no, God has a big plan, to try and sort problems

Mr. Right says:

and get peace and shit like that

Jarl S. Berg says:

What I am saying is that what they think they need and what they might really need are two separate things. And since God can see all, surely he would know their lives and their inner and outer problems and know what is best and try and encourage them to take the right path, and therefore prayer is redundant.

Mr. Right says:

see most

Jarl S. Berg says:

Well surely he'd see enough for my statement to still stand, you're not exactly making it clear what he sees and what he doesn't. It's like anything you don't like fitting in with your view, he can't do, just to make it a little neater for you.

Mr. Right says:

well he can;t do everthing

Jarl S. Berg says:

I'm not saying he can do everything. There's a difference between seeing all that is happening, and doing everything. There is a difference between seing all that is happening and has happened and seeing what is going to happen.

Jarl S. Berg says:

What I am saying is that surely there's a God that has seen all past and present inner and outer, and therefore knows your problems and what you needs, which may be different to what you think you need, and therefore encourages you and therefore prayer is redundant.

Jarl S. Berg says:

It seems to me that people use prayer as a form of self-help, but in my opinion, if there was a God, prayer would not be necessary.

Mr. Right says:

and i'm saying he doesn't know, because we have free will, he can see all that might happen, and work out what's most likely, but not know for sure

Jarl S. Berg says:

No, no, you're not getting what I am saying.

Jarl S. Berg says:

Let me repeat it and read carefully. At the present moment he knows all that has happened in the past right up to now, but he doesn't know for sure what is going to happen in the future. But since he knows all that has happened in the past up to now, inner and outer, as an all-good being he knows what you need, which may be different to what you think you need, and therefore encourages you you to

Jarl S. Berg says:

go in one way (which is what you believe, that he encourages, not forces) for your own benefit, and that therefore prayer is not needed.

Mr. Right says:

i'm looking for the wiki article

Mr. Right says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism

Jarl S. Berg says:

What the hell are you looking for a wiki article for?

Mr. Right says:

it says it better

Jarl S. Berg says:

Which bit am I meant to look at?

Jarl S. Berg says:

copy it

Mr. Right says:

it's all there

Jarl S. Berg says:

I have to read all of it?

Jarl S. Berg says:

It better refute what I say about prayer not being necessary since he knows everything from the past to the present, which is not to say he knows the future for certain.

Mr. Right says:

just the top part

Jarl S. Berg says:

Because I have better things to read.

Mr. Right says:

Practically, Open Theism makes the case for a personal God who is able to be influenced through prayer, decisions, and actions of people. Although unknowing of the future, God has predictive (anticipatory) foreknowledge of the future through his intimate knowledge of each individual. As such, he is able to anticipate the future, yet remains fluid to respond and react to prayer and decisions made either contrary or advantageous to His plan or presuppositions.

Jarl S. Berg says:

I read that, but that doesn't refute my claim about prayer.

Mr. Right says:

we have free will to decide what we want to pray for

Jarl S. Berg says:

Dude, I'm not saying that you can't pray if you want to, I'm saying that prayer isn't necessary...

Jarl S. Berg says:

Are you even paying attention to my argument?

Mr. Right says:

and so he doesn't want to force us in one direction

Jarl S. Berg says:

I'm not saying that he's trying to force us in one direction

Mr. Right says:

there's not just one solution to every problem

Jarl S. Berg says:

I'm not saying that either!

Mr. Right says:

so he can;t act until we tell him which solution we want to follow

Jarl S. Berg says:

But earlier you said that he might offer you a solution or might not

Mr. Right says:

he's not a mathamatic formula

Jarl S. Berg says:

I'm not fucking saying he is.

Mr. Right says:

he has free will too

Jarl S. Berg says:

I know he does.

Mr. Right says:

so we say 'we want this' he might not give it

Mr. Right says:

but he might

Jarl S. Berg says:

This is silly. What's the point of prayer then? What this is is praying for something, and then when you don't get it saying "oh well, God didn't want to" and when you do "yay, God gave it to me!"

Mr. Right says:

like when you ask your mom for something

Mr. Right says:

she might not give it to you

Mr. Right says:

but it's more likely than if you never asked

Jarl S. Berg says:

Yeah, but I can see my mum. Tell me this, how do you know that he gave it to you? Perhaps he decided not to answer your prayer and you obtained it without the help of God.

Mr. Right says:

i dunno

Mr. Right says:

i'm not a priest

Mr. Right says:

it'snot like it matters

Jarl S. Berg says:

You have to be a priest to answer this question: Tell me this, how do you know that he gave it to you? Perhaps he decided not to answer your prayer and you obtained it without the help of God. ?

Mr. Right says:

you don;t, but it doesn't matter

Jarl S. Berg says:

Well, I guess beliefs are neat like this. This seems pretty silly to me, but if it makes you comfortable.

Mr. Right says:

all i said was that i was glad i was ill

Mr. Right says:

and that it meant i thought maybe God helped, cause otherwise it's just really lucky

Jarl S. Berg says:

And as I said, beliefs are neat like that.

Mr. Right says:

yes

Jarl S. Berg says:

Which is, by the way, meant to be your cue to change the subject.

Mr. Right says:

The God described in the Bible is the most powerful, most knowing, most loving, and most unchanging in his nature, but not omni-everything. In scripture, he changed his mind and plans [3], voluntarily limited Himself in power, was surprised by events on Earth [4], was hurt [5], and paid attention to the pleas of men and angels

Mr. Right says:

almost news time

Jarl S. Berg says:

Yes, ok, you don't have to quote anymore. I get what Open Theism is, it just seems silly to me.

Jarl S. Berg says:

If I was going to believe in a God, this would be my belief: God is everything, there is no free will and no such thing as objective good and evil, everything is divine and how it is meant to be, and my accepting this you gain enlightenment and content.

Jarl S. Berg says:

and by accepting*

Jarl S. Berg says:

But I don't, so...

Jarl S. Berg says:

Moving on... what you doing?

He's studying A-level physics?

Well, I guess the main thing needed there is math skills, not reasoning and logic...

I think it's human nature to attempt to define anything we either think or know to exist; when it comes to the concept of a God, any description we can come up with is generally absurd...more than often borderline, if not entirely, retarded.

I'm not even entirely satisfied with my own definition, which would be 'the totality of existence.'

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

After reading this article, I would like your opinion on what it is that makes intelligent people hold irrational, non-falsifiable beliefs that make utterly no sense?



Fear, and ignorance, but mostly fear. It's an insidious thing, planted in our mind's often at an early age it lives in the subconscious mind and affects our decisions without us being really conscious of it so no matter how intelligent a person is, until they have the realisation of the memes implanted by environment, society and culture they will not actually consciously know.

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)