we are the architects of our lives, we have the power to control our fate and our destiny. comment plz.

quote:Originally posted by ZOMGflamemealready:

we are the architects of our lives, we have the power to control our fate and our destiny. comment plz.

I agree to a point. It's obvious that we have the freedom to choose whatever we like. The bible says that all things are permissable but not all things are beneficial. This universe is like a big sand box with only the laws that govern it to contain us. (i.e laws of life and death, physics, time, etc.)

With that said, we have a fate etched into our lives - that is we will all die and we have no choice in the matter. That alone restricts our ability to control our fate.

We can somewhat control the outcome of our lives with decisions on many temptations we encounter daily.

All cross roads in life are nothing more then the interaction of making a choice when a temptation appears. When a tempation appears it will set our life path depending on how we respond to it.

However, in the big scheme of things, no matter how hard we try to steer our lives we will all end up at the same destination. That is our bodies will die.

To understand fate in it's fullest we have to understand that we are spiritual beings first and from the heart and mind comes the springs of our intent. What am I saying? We don't control the fate of our bodies but by our choices we control the fate of our souls.

That's how I see it.

alot of things are unintentional and at first unnoticed, but fall into the third direction

quote:It's obvious that we have the freedom to choose whatever we like.

Is it really? Sometimes I get really fatalistic.

Also, the Bible doesn't really back you up that well:

Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22

If you believe in Christian god - there can be no free will

If you believe in no god - there can be no free will

If you believe in a god which is not all knowing, such as a deist god - there may be free will

Basically, I don't believe in free will therefore I would say we are simply parts of this great machine.

Don’t be fooled into thinking it’s a machine, machines function with a purpose, such as espresso machines. The universe does not function with a purpose, and to think it does is to give it a conscious or creator.

I, personally, am a naturalist pantheist/agnostic-atheist. I don’t believe in freewill as such, but I subscribe to David Hume’s compatibilism, which is a form of soft-determinism.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 12-12-2006).]

Life is most likely deterministic. Anyone who holds to a fatalistic or libertarian view (most christians will) is certainly not right.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Is it really? Sometimes I get really fatalistic.

Also, the Bible doesn't really back you up that well:

Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22

THank you for the time you took to write that. I am however, a realist firstly and also a skeptic. What that means is I'm very careful to trust things I accept at true.

I am not walking in a cloud with bible goggles on. I walk this earth with an attempt at grasping reality first. From that reality I then read the bible.

What am I saying. I know for a fact and with all my heart that I have a free will to choose whatever I may choose in life. No matter what philosophy or idea is thrown up to contradict that truth will stop me from knowing my freedom.

Therefore, the intent of your presentation doesn't mate with reality. What you have presented I accept as true but incomplete.

You have taken scripture out of the bible and left others out.

While we have been predestined to salvation we have also been given the freedom to sin or obey. That is to accept or reject that potential with our own choices and actions.

It is obvious that we have the opporuntity to enter in Heaven by the way of Jesus but we also have the means to reject it. That is a truth you can not deny. God will not force His way on you despite what man attempts to do. You can be either subject to religion or submitted to God. But that is another topic as religion seperates man from God on many levels.

quote:What am I saying. I know for a fact and with all my heart that I have a free will to choose whatever I may choose in life. No matter what philosophy or idea is thrown up to contradict that truth will stop me from knowing my freedom.



Haha - and you call yourself a skeptic?? Even though you would hold dear such a falsity to your heart and even openly admit it. Loser.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

It is obvious that we have the opporuntity to enter in Heaven by the way of Jesus

Yes, all of us skeptical types have come to the same conclusion.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Haha - and you call yourself a skeptic?? Even though you would hold dear such a falsity to your heart and even openly admit it. Loser.

You misunderstood me. I didn't say forever skeptical. What I meant is that I need supporting arguements and evidence to show proof of concept. There comes a point in ones search that the answer is eventually found can you agree?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:



Yes, all of us skeptical types have come to the same conclusion.



Tell me another way? do you think I haven't studied many other philosphies, religions and ideas? Do you think I just one day said,"Jesusis the way to Heaven, cool - I can dig that?" Please , if anybody is guilty of living a sin filled life it would be me. Well, until I was no longer a skeptic to what I eventually accepted as true.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 12-14-2006).]

quote: I know for a fact and with all my heart

I stopped reading right there.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

Tell me another way?

Huh?

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

do you think I haven't studied many other philosphies, religions and ideas?

Who cares? That has nothing to do with how skeptical you are. What I do know from earlier threads, is what you learned about evolution was entirely done from creationists, and yet you came to some ridiculous conclusions without learning what real scientists say. That's not how one goes about being a skeptic.



quote:Originally posted by Interest:

Do you think I just one day said,"Jesusis the way to Heaven, cool - I can dig that?"

No, of course not. Since you claim to be skeptical, you must be. Now what skeptical line of reasoning lead you to the conclusion that it is obvious that we have the opportunity to enter Heaven by the way of Jesus?

quote:There comes a point in ones search that the answer is eventually found can you agree?



Yes, or if not the answer - the next best thing. But what arguments led you to be so certain that you had a libertarian form of freewill... surely as a skeptic they will convince me aswell.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

Yes, or if not the answer - the next best thing. But what arguments led you to be so certain that you had a libertarian form of freewill... surely as a skeptic they will convince me aswell.



OK - lets just say I am as skeptical about your views as you are about mine. What do I know or care about a "libertarian" form of free will. I didn't know there were different degrees and ownership of a free will?

How will I pass your litmus test of skepticism? BY denouncing personal convictions?



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 12-16-2006).]

By being rational and justifying your beliefs.