There is no god in a conventional sense, the universe itself is god and is alive. The human mind has nothing to do with a soul. Everything is created of energy and energy cannot be created or destroyed, energy itself is life, adam and eve is a single celled organism that eventually evolved into what we are today. When we die our memories, thoughts, experiences and physcial body all die to but they do not go extinct and there is something beyond the physical body that makes someone who they are, whether it is immortal or not is irrelevant (exe. even if this "soul" lasts 200 years there is life before and after death. The soul is sort of like a wavelength that controls a toy car, the exact frequency controlling the car makes it move forward and backward and turn around, if you have two remotes they will both control the car at the same time, if you get the frequency of a human exactly right two or more "remotes" can control them at the same time. These remotes are our collective concious and possibly extend beyond what science can prove thusfar but are not necesarily unprovable. When you die and rot, your conscience lives on but seperates into multiple entities. It is possible that in the future the exact same frequency combines together again and you are reborn. Why must there be a soul? Because every three months ALL of the atoms in our body are exchanged with other atoms- we are physically not the same person though concience and DNA says we are still the same person, and we can still experience life. Twins do not do exactly the same thing as each other and experience life as seperate entities and seperate conciousnesses although they are exactly the same through DNA, what makes one themself and the other themself is the soul.

Say NO to drugs. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

[This message has been edited by Death of a Nation (edited 12-14-2006).]

What you're speaking of is Pantheism, which is pretty much a variant of atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in a deity. A deity is a preternatural being. That means it is outside of nature. So therefore Atheism is no real objection to a natural god.

quote:Originally posted by VegetaRobGT:

There is no god in a conventional sense, the universe itself is god and is alive. The human mind has nothing to do with a soul. Everything is created of energy and energy cannot be created or destroyed, energy itself is life, adam and eve is a single celled organism that eventually evolved into what we are today. When we die our memories, thoughts, experiences and physcial body all die to but they do not go extinct and there is something beyond the physical body that makes someone who they are, whether it is immortal or not is irrelevant (exe. even if this "soul" lasts 200 years there is life before and after death. The soul is sort of like a wavelength that controls a toy car, the exact frequency controlling the car makes it move forward and backward and turn around, if you have two remotes they will both control the car at the same time, if you get the frequency of a human exactly right two or more "remotes" can control them at the same time. These remotes are our collective concious and possibly extend beyond what science can prove thusfar but are not necesarily unprovable. When you die and rot, your conscience lives on but seperates into multiple entities. It is possible that in the future the exact same frequency combines together again and you are reborn. Why must there be a soul? Because every three months ALL of the atoms in our body are exchanged with other atoms- we are physically not the same person though concience and DNA says we are still the same person, and we can still experience life. Twins do not do exactly the same thing as each other and experience life as seperate entities and seperate conciousnesses although they are exactly the same through DNA, what makes one themself and the other themself is the soul.

Whoop-dee--Fuking--DOO!!!

Einstein and many other scientists who were atheists have regarded the universe as God before you where a gamete swimming around in your fathers A septum.

[This message has been edited by the dillinger escape plan (edited 12-14-2006).]

Yeah, that's cause it's true.

So what kind of pantheist are you? I'm a naturalist pantheist, like Spinoza.

Lets take everything you said in a literal sense.

If what you say is true, then it is somehow possible to remove our mind from our physical body and place it in another's entity. That would also mean that telepathy is possible and all of the other cool sci-fi things that have to do with mind control and memory clearing is true. The world is currently in a golden age of technology and none of this has been done. I'm not saying it is not possible but it is highly improbable. There has never been a credible recorded event of any of these things happening. Humans have been around for thousands of years, and there are currently over six-billion people on this planet and would that not put the odds of someone, ANYONE, doing something of this sort beyond reasonable doubt?

Yep, this is just me ranting.

Usually it helps to provide evidence or at least sign of forethought before rambling on about bastardised Pantheism.

There has been some evidence supporting the paranormal events such as near death out of body experiences and physchic mediums guessing about things with about 80-90 percent accuracy. The problem is that Scientists tend to dismiss anything relating to paranormal, they commonly won't fund it, dismiss it without proof or disproof. Something semi-paranormal happened to me and my friend- we had an ouija board, flipped it upside down so we couldn't see the letters and kept asking it questions and getting full phrase answers everytime, this doesn't prove much I don't know how to scientifically explain it. I wish I had a better example, I am still looking into pyschic stuff and paranormal activity trying to find solid proof, so far NDEs and Pyschic Mediums are the closest proof. Technology still has a ways to go and nothing is more advanced or complex than immortality.

Does this make sense, I suck with math. http://www.sfu.ca/~jeffpell/Phil350/PhaedoProof.pdf

[This message has been edited by VegetaRobGT (edited 12-14-2006).]

quote:There is no god in a conventional sense, the universe itself is god

With that quote, and the title of this topic all you have achieved is to change the traditional definition of God to something that already has a name (the universe) and then claim that every opinion about 'God' is wrong; even though they were based on the old definition.

quote:Because every three months ALL of the atoms in our body are exchanged with other atoms

Not true at all.

quote:Twins do not do exactly the same thing as each other and experience life as seperate entities and seperate conciousnesses although they are exactly the same through DNA

Twins usually have different DNA.

quote:what makes one themself and the other themself is the soul.

What about the deterministic effect that the external world has on the development of a human brain?

You do not even give good logical arguments to back up your opinion.

quote:

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There is no god in a conventional sense, the universe itself is god

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With that quote, and the title of this topic all you have achieved is to change the traditional definition of God to something that already has a name (the universe) and then claim that every opinion about 'God' is wrong; even though they were based on the old definition.

What I meant is that the Universe and God are one and the same, two definitions are not necessary. I never said EVERY opinion about god is wrong but most are- meaning there is more wrong than right.



quote:

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Because every three months ALL of the atoms in our body are exchanged with other atoms

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Not true at all. Um, ya they do.



quote:

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Twins do not do exactly the same thing as each other and experience life as seperate entities and seperate conciousnesses although they are exactly the same through DNA

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Twins usually have different DNA. Well not identical twins.



quote:

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what makes one themself and the other themself is the soul.

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What about the deterministic effect that the external world has on the development of a human brain? It doesn't cause you to change into a different person, and as I stated before the soul and the brain are seperate.

You do not even give good logical arguments to back up your opinion. It's not my opinion, it's the truth- and I just argued it.

there is no such thing as a soul from where i sit. hear me out. We are made up of trillion of cells all working together in teh most effecient way so they can live. what we feel is just our nerves and receptors acting (ie when you cut yourself you pain receptors act). our brian is a bunch of cells inurpeting electricity waves and chemicals. our hearts beat cus of an electrical current passed through and cells expanding and contracting. emotions are chemical balances in the brian. if you happy you ll have more (for lack of a better term) of the "happy" chemical and less of the "sad" chemical. a soul doesnt control emtions or reactios. because of the chemical balance in the brain, you will act accordingly. there is no coul controling what we do, its chemicals and you reaction to the chemical

I look at life as the way it is rather than the way I WANT it to be- sure it would be easy to take one side and have someone tell me what to believe but I already know the truth. If I theoretically ceased to exist- I would be in no pain, no struggle, no worries at all I would have nothing and thus nothing to fear if I theoretically went to hell I would remember my sins and enjoy the continuation of my mind after death, if I theoretically went to heaven I would be in bliss for a while and then just get bored of it after a while. But those theories are incomplete.

While it is true that chemical reactions control nearly everything we do, doesn't mean there isn't some essence beyond that. I see a few possibilities:

The soul is comprised solely of physical matter, is mortal yet not completely understood and operates on some sort of wavelength. This to me seems improbable.

The soul is converted from energy or supernatural forces into a physical form and is immortal, but has no immortal mind or brain.

The soul was created will be destroyed and created again in a never ending cycle.

The soul is an unknown immortal force inhabiting life.

There is one universal soul split into many entities destined to reunite as one.

If the soul did not exist, I would not exist whether I am mortal or not being irrelivant I am positive the soul exists. How can you explain what seperates you from me, me from a squirrel, a tree from bear- they are all seperate entities and self-aware- what explanation is there for that? There is a reason for everthing and there is a reason for why I am myself- Of all those trillions of cells I have ultimate control of the chemical reactions taking place.

if you can provide me with a single shred of emperical evidence for your theories, i will bow down and worship you as a god.

People claiming to have past lives, people existing as seperate entities, and NDEs are all evidence. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

I wish I had better evidence but that's a shred.

quote:What I meant is that the Universe and God are one and the same, two definitions are not necessary.

So why bother calling it God - it already had a name (the universe), there is no need to change it to God; there is only need to abolish the word God.

quote:I never said EVERY opinion about god is wrong but most are- meaning there is more wrong than right.



Every opinion about the traditional definition of God, how could they not be wrong when you have switched the definition on them.

quote:Because every three months ALL of the atoms in our body are exchanged with other atoms

Not all cells in our body divide - namely brain cells do not divide.

quote:Twins do not do exactly the same thing as each other and experience life as seperate entities and seperate conciousnesses although they are exactly the same through DNA

Yes, identical twins do have the same DNA at birth - but over time genetic differences are created by different genes being switched on/off due to external factors. Also - they are two different people, you would not expect them to do the same things. Each twins' brain will develop different to the other unless they are put through the exact same set of circumstances; which would be impossible because there are so many variables impacting them at every moment.

quote:It's not my opinion, it's the truth- and I just argued it.



It is your opinion, at the moment it isn't even looking remotely likley to be even considered to be the truth. You still haven't given evidence for your theory:

-'People claming to have past lives'

This is not exactly empirical evidence, do you believe everything that everyone claims?

-'people existing as seperate entities'

What does that even mean?

-'NDEs'

Haha - again it is based on testimony instead of testable hypothesis, but even ignoring this there is still a scientific explanation for the phenomena

quote:Dr. Michael Sabom is a cardiologist whose latest book, Light and Death, includes a detailed medical and scientific analysis of an amazing near-death experience

How can Dr. Sabom possibly give a scientific analysis to a phenomena that is based on no emprircal evidence whatsoever and that can not be successfully reproduced, the field is largely psuedo-scientific parading as something scientific.

quote:Originally posted by VegetaRobGT:

People claiming to have past lives, people existing as seperate entities, and NDEs are all evidence. h ttp://www. near-death .com/experiences/evidence01.html (http: //www.near -death.com /experienc es/evidenc e01.html)

I wish I had better evidence but that's a shred.



good thing i specified empirical evidence then.

quote:Originally posted by VegetaRobGT:

I look at life as the way it is rather than the way I WANT it to be- sure it would be easy to take one side and have someone tell me what to believe but I already know the truth. If I theoretically ceased to exist- I would be in no pain, no struggle, no worries at all I would have nothing and thus nothing to fear if I theoretically went to hell I would remember my sins and enjoy the continuation of my mind after death, if I theoretically went to heaven I would be in bliss for a while and then just get bored of it after a while. But those theories are incomplete.

While it is true that chemical reactions control nearly everything we do, doesn't mean there isn't some essence beyond that. I see a few possibilities:

The soul is comprised solely of physical matter, is mortal yet not completely understood and operates on some sort of wavelength. This to me seems improbable.

The soul is converted from energy or supernatural forces into a physical form and is immortal, but has no immortal mind or brain.

The soul was created will be destroyed and created again in a never ending cycle.

The soul is an unknown immortal force inhabiting life.

There is one universal soul split into many entities destined to reunite as one.

If the soul did not exist, I would not exist whether I am mortal or not being irrelivant I am positive the soul exists. How can you explain what seperates you from me, me from a squirrel, a tree from bear- they are all seperate entities and self-aware- what explanation is there for that? There is a reason for everthing and there is a reason for why I am myself- Of all those trillions of cells I have ultimate control of the chemical reactions taking place.

No, you're looking at things the way you want them to be and bending scientific half-truths to match that.

What seperates you from other organic entities? DNA structure, cell structure, chemical reactions, brain size, etc.

As for immortality and indestructible, no such thing has been shown to exist, and you saying otherwise proves nothing.

If the soul was comprised of physical matter, it could be found. For that matter, if that were true, and upon death the soul vacated the body, the body would indeed become lighter. But it doesn't.

Thirdly, trees aren't self aware. They have no central nervous system, let alone any organ capable of anything as complex as thought to the same level as an animal.

Don't anger my god.

quote:Originally posted by Siash:

Don't anger my god.

My God can beat the shit out of your god! :P

quote:Originally posted by Death of a Nation:

Say NO to drugs. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)



stfu. it's more logistical then you're monotheistic ideologies.

quote:Originally posted by VegetaRobGT:

I look at life as the way it is rather than the way I WANT it to be- sure it would be easy to take one side and have someone tell me what to believe but I already know the truth. If I theoretically ceased to exist- I would be in no pain, no struggle, no worries at all I would have nothing and thus nothing to fear if I theoretically went to hell I would remember my sins and enjoy the continuation of my mind after death, if I theoretically went to heaven I would be in bliss for a while and then just get bored of it after a while. But those theories are incomplete.

While it is true that chemical reactions control nearly everything we do, doesn't mean there isn't some essence beyond that. I see a few possibilities:

The soul is comprised solely of physical matter, is mortal yet not completely understood and operates on some sort of wavelength. This to me seems improbable.

The soul is converted from energy or supernatural forces into a physical form and is immortal, but has no immortal mind or brain.

The soul was created will be destroyed and created again in a never ending cycle.

The soul is an unknown immortal force inhabiting life.

There is one universal soul split into many entities destined to reunite as one.

If the soul did not exist, I would not exist whether I am mortal or not being irrelivant I am positive the soul exists. How can you explain what seperates you from me, me from a squirrel, a tree from bear- they are all seperate entities and self-aware- what explanation is there for that? There is a reason for everthing and there is a reason for why I am myself- Of all those trillions of cells I have ultimate control of the chemical reactions taking place.

if the soul is a physical entity manifested out of the universe then it can be said that the atoms comprising the soul are exchanged as those in the body. the fact is that the last 10% of the human genome needs to be looked at under better microscopes...

and to tell the truth, I should say no to drugs...

I would prove it if I could. There has been studies to show that weight is lost at the moment of death, just not accurate enough and need be repeated. Yes trees are not self aware bad example. DNA, chemical reactions, experience and all that fun stuff doesn't explain how or why people exist as seperate entities. Matter is never created nor destroyed- the Universe has been is and always will be... in an infinity everything is bound to happen and everything that has happened has happened before and will happen again. Science cannot yet explain everything.

quote:Originally posted by VegetaRobGT:

I would prove it if I could. There has been studies to show that weight is lost at the moment of death, just not accurate enough and need be repeated. Yes trees are not self aware bad example. DNA, chemical reactions, experience and all that fun stuff doesn't explain how or why people exist as seperate entities. Matter is never created nor destroyed- the Universe has been is and always will be... in an infinity everything is bound to happen and everything that has happened has happened before and will happen again. Science cannot yet explain everything.

Why do you assume that there needs to be proof that humans are individual entities? Are you listening to yourself? As for the eternal nature of the universe, that's still very much up in the air. As for events in an infinity, all you're doing is stating a fact that has no relevence to what you're saying.

And the only study I heard about spoke of bodies becoming heavier upon death, and even that's iffy.

quote:Originally posted by VegetaRobGT:

I would prove it if I could. There has been studies to show that weight is lost at the moment of death, just not accurate enough and need be repeated.

Cite your source.

quote:Matter is never created nor destroyed- the Universe has been is and always will be... in an infinity everything is bound to happen and everything that has happened has happened before and will happen again. Science cannot yet explain everything.

Yes if the universe lasts forever, every possible thing will happen... ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS and other sciences.

Nonsense - if the universe lasts forever everything will most certainly not happen. One obvious thing that would not happen is the universe ceasing to exist. There are countless others. I will not live twice, i will not have another 3rd birthday, energy will not be destroyed...

In an infinate amount of time, history will repeat itself and you are bound to be reborn. Everything possible will happen- it is not possible for energy to be destroyed you are ultimately composed of energy, it is not possible for something that exists to cease to exist (IE the universe) everything that has happened will happen again.

quote:history will repeat itself

The third law of thermodynamics states that the universe is degrading, being a closed system. Therefore - in the future the universe will be further degenerated than at the current time and therefore, uncapable of precisely replicating history.



quote:and you are bound to be reborn

The circumstances and events that have shaped my being since before i was born will never be precisely the same again ( due to the above principle) and therefore i will never be 'born again'.

quote:it is not possible for something that exists to cease to exist

Stars at one point in time exist - and then at the next don't. Quantum particles pop in and out of existence regularly.

quote:everything that has happened will happen again.



Is i pointed out above, it won't.

You are wrong - your 13 year old psuedo-prolific philosophies may sound good to the kids in the playground but they have no place here.

The laws of thermodynamics of theoretical and contradictory- the second law of thermodynamics contradicts our existence evolution contradicts natural laws the law you are referring to about entropy is the second law of thermodynamics. The third law of thermodynamics states that temperature cannot reach absolute zero and since temperature is in fact the movement of molecules, molecules will always be moving somewhat. Hubbles law states that the universe is expanding not getting smaller. Search "Universe is expanding on google" search "universe is contracting" on google. "Universe is expanding" gets more results. Anything is possible, who states there is only one universe? What about anti-matter? Dark energy? How come I was not born as you? Why do we exsist? What created life?

Oh Dear God!

You realy need to learn about rationality

The laws of thermodynamics are solid, your understanding of them is flawed. Think what would happen to a jar of pebbles if you shook it, the pebbles would seperate according to size and maybe texture. You think every scintist in the would missed that? Order can come from dissorder, closed systems are capable of organisation. And calling the laws throetical doesnt work to well, as i'm geussing you use a fridge? a heater? Both need the theory of thermodynaics to be true in order fro them to work.

Using a google fight to decide whats correct is just blindingly stupid, even if it wasn't ment as eveidence its still utterly pointless and therefor stupid to bring up.

I have trouble with the whole 'people are seperate from oneanother' concept as well, ever since i was a kid. I didnt however, blindly belive 'facts' and beleifs i found on the fucking internet!

You need to educate your self.

Sorry - i meant the second law, but clearly my point was still understood.

No it doesn't - order can come from disorder, it just means that somewhere else in the closed system there is more chaos.

quote:The third law of thermodynamics states that temperature cannot reach absolute zero and since temperature is in fact the movement of molecules, molecules will always be moving somewhat. Hubbles law states that the universe is expanding not getting smaller. Search "Universe is expanding on google" search "universe is contracting" on google. "Universe is expanding" gets more results.

Cool...wtf does that have to do with anything...

quote:Anything is possible

No it isn't, a contradiction can't exist. P cannot both exist and not exist at the same time.

quote:who states there is only one universe? What about anti-matter? Dark energy?

Your stoned?

quote:How come I was not born as you?

Different parents.

quote:Why do we exsist?

No reason.

quote:What created life?



It is the neccessary outcome of the conditions here on earth.

If order can come from disorder then there is no end and order will eventually cause history to repear itself. Having different parents isn't a reason for having seperate consciencenesses. Again, there is a reason for everything so there is a reason we are here. Something put the conditions of earth into place.

"No reason."

So what is the purpose of the universe? What is it's function in nature?

The Universe itself is it's own purpose, because "nothing" can not exist, it's purpose is to exist.

quote:If order can come from disorder then there is no end and order will eventually cause history to repear itself.

Ok - you don't understand and i don't care anymore. Order can arise from disorder, it doesn't mean that it constantly does; infact, according to the second law of thermodynamics more disorder will arise than order.

quote:Having different parents isn't a reason for having seperate consciencenesses.

Yea it is. It is the reason we look different, act different, it is the very reason we are different - the conscienceness is nothing special, it is just the way your brain interacts with external stimuli.

quote:Again, there is a reason for everything so there is a reason we are here.

In the sense that the natural laws of the world could be accounted as the 'reason' for a phenomena. Not in the sense that someone has laid out a master plan.

quote:Something put the conditions of earth into place.



Foolish. It's called the weak anthropic principle, look it up. You are putting the cart infront of the horse. The conditions on earth were not created so we could exist - we exist because the conditions on earth are the way they are; the fact of our existence leads to the question of 'what else would you expect?'

quote:So what is the purpose of the universe? What is it's function in nature?



It doesn't have one.

The law states that order will remain constant or further degenerate. Well this law cannot be true 100percent because there would have to be one point in time where order was 100 percent, and the law fails to explain how it began at 100 percent order so I assume that when disorder become maximum that order arises through a big crunch.



I could of just as easily been born as you as a squirrel or whatever. The only thing genetics and parents do is determine what we do and what we think not what we are.



In the sense that the natural laws of the world could be accounted as the 'reason' for a phenomena. Not in the sense that someone has laid out a master plan.

Either way is just as likely as is neither way.

quote:

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Something put the conditions of earth into place.

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Foolish. It's called the weak anthropic principle, look it up. You are putting the cart infront of the horse. The conditions on earth were not created so we could exist - we exist because the conditions on earth are the way they are; the fact of our existence leads to the question of 'what else would you expect?'

I would expect everything or nothing and it's obviously not nothing. How can you say either way if the conditions were created for us to exist or we exist because of the conditions- why do you lean toward the latter, something put the conditions of earth into place or else it wouldn't be here.



quote:

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So what is the purpose of the universe? What is it's function in nature?



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It doesn't have one. It's purpose is itself, everything and existence it is it's own purpose and existence.

quote:Originally posted by VegetaRobGT:

I would prove it if I could. There has been studies to show that weight is lost at the moment of death, just not accurate enough and need be repeated.

quote:

Soul Man (http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp)

The Hindus reckon the soul is the smallest particle of matter, virtually weightless, but what this comes down to is the chicken and egg thing. Does our body generate our consciousness or does consciousness generate the body?

quote:"If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made it's home in this poverty." Gospel of Thomas v.29

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Well this law cannot be true 100percent because there would have to be one point in time where order was 100 percent

Why?

quote:The only thing genetics and parents do is determine what we do and what we think not what we are.



When have two human parents ever had a non-human baby? Listen to what you are saying.

quote:Either way is just as likely as is neither way.



No it isn't, your arbitrary probabilities have no meaning.

quote:How can you say either way if the conditions were created for us to exist or we exist because of the conditions

One makes sense and is consistent with how the natural world would work considering our current theories, therefore i would be justified in believing it. The other is a 2000 year old fairy tale which we would not be justified in believing. That is how i can say that.

quote:why do you lean toward the latter

Logic and occam's razor.

quote:something put the conditions of earth into place or else it wouldn't be here.



The earth could exist with different conditions.

You've failed, now you are just nit-picking way off topic to try and make yourself look respectable; if you even bother to reply to this you will just be made to look more foolish than you already are.

The OP must have watched that "The Secret" documentary one too many times http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

(The one about the law of attraction)

Why? 100 percent is a whole, something can not come out of existence from a fraction it has to already exist, having existed as a whole



quote:

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The only thing genetics and parents do is determine what we do and what we think not what we are.

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When have two human parents ever had a non-human baby? Listen to what you are saying.

You know what, if apes had never had a non-ape baby then humans wouldnt exist. This I'm going to have to agree with you on this one, you have just dissproved evolution.



quote:

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Either way is just as likely as is neither way.

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No it isn't, your arbitrary probabilities have no meaning. How is what I'm saying arbitrary? I've explained it to you every time you asked me. There you go again with things having no meaning, but I certainly had a meaning when I wrote down those facts.



quote:

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How can you say either way if the conditions were created for us to exist or we exist because of the conditions

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One makes sense and is consistent with how the natural world would work considering our current theories, therefore i would be justified in believing it. The other is a 2000 year old fairy tale which we would not be justified in believing. That is how i can say that. 2000 years ago, religion was wrong. 2000 years later... science is wrong. See a pattern?



quote:

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why do you lean toward the latter

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Logic and occam's razor. Occam's razor states that the simpler solution is usually right. Well it would of been pretty damn simple if we as a human race never advanced technologically and always took the easy way out... but look how better off we are today by complicating things.



quote:

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something put the conditions of earth into place or else it wouldn't be here.

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The earth could exist with different conditions. Yes it could. It could exist with 1000s of ape-human skeletons proving evolution instead of huge gaps of species that science and evolution cannot explain.

You've failed, now you are just nit-picking way off topic to try and make yourself look respectable; if you even bother to reply to this you will just be made to look more foolish than you already are. You're just saying that cause you're starting to believe I'm right. You don't want to have to come back and make another argument. I havn't failed, I won.

quote:Originally posted by Daz:

One makes sense and is consistent with how the natural world would work considering our current theories, therefore i would be justified in believing it. The other is a 2000 year old fairy tale which we would not be justified in believing. That is how i can say that.[/B]



quote:Originally posted by VegetaRobGT:

2000 years ago, religion was wrong. 2000 years later... science is wrong. See a pattern?



Are you fucking serious?

You are actually retarded, you consistently and dishonestly mis-interperet what i say, it is a trick used by lamers who can't argue their point.