Simple question. If Jesus had been the first man, instead of Adam, would not everything have worked out the way god supposedly desired?

Why didn't god just make Jesus the first man?

I can't see how the christians can squirm around on this one.

because the lord works in mysterious ways, duh

Since when has God been any good at logical planning?

because the fictional god the christians created in there book is a fucken idiot!

If jesus was sent to save man because man was going in a downward spiral, then god's creation is imperfect according to god's own standards. You could say man is given free will, so imperfections were caused by man. If this is true, then god cannot be all of the above: omnipotent, omniscient and perfect.

According to logic, christians should throw out atleast one of god's supposed characteristics.

[This message has been edited by KikoSanchez (edited 12-19-2006).]

Basically what Kiko said. That's what I'm getting at.

jesus is god... holy trinity. but why stop there the bible started after many generations of telephone. moses wrote the first 5 books of the bible. how many people were alive before him and how did he get all this info. the answer....the "burning bush" lost in translation a pile of pot lit on fire.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Since when has God been any good at logical planning?

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Since when has God been any good at logical planning?



ftw

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

If jesus was sent to save man because man was going in a downward spiral, then god's creation is imperfect according to god's own standards. You could say man is given free will, so imperfections were caused by man. If this is true, then god cannot be all of the above: omnipotent, omniscient and perfect.

According to logic, christians should throw out atleast one of god's supposed characteristics.





It's the omnicient part that gets to me. But how can god not be, if he's friggin god? I dont see how some christians dont believe in predestination.

jesus is a fag and wouldnt have looked in eves direction to get some pussy.god had to make a man

this is, of course if i believe in

him/her/it/thingy/creature/pedo

(which i don't)

Who cares? Religion is for the weak! There in NO god.

quote:Originally posted by bitplane:

because the lord works in mysterious ways, duh

I hate when Christians use that as an excuse when they can't answer a question to defend their religion.

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

If jesus was sent to save man because man was going in a downward spiral, then god's creation is imperfect according to god's own standards. You could say man is given free will, so imperfections were caused by man. If this is true, then god cannot be all of the above: omnipotent, omniscient and perfect.

According to logic, christians should throw out atleast one of god's supposed characteristics.





I would definitley state free will as the reason that we are as we are. My interpretation is that before this we were more like hyped up angels. We had little free will, we weren't aware of good or bad. We were more or less like animals wandering around having a jolly old time.

Then God, graciously in my opinion, plants down a simple way for us (well... Maybe not US.) to choose whether we wanted true freewill or not. (and with this comes the idea of sin, before they had no concept of good or bad, there could be no sin of anykind, no bad actions because we walked around eating and screwing.)

I also fail to see how by placing mans free-will on himself God is made less knowing powerful or good.

To adress the first post. If God had sent down Jesus as the first man then would we have ever been gifted free-will? Perhaps God simply acted as He thought best at the time. Who knows.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

To adress the first post. If God had sent down Jesus as the first man then would we have ever been gifted free-will?

Didn't Jesus have free will? Whatever was wrong with Adam, that was not wrong with Jesus, that was god's choice to make him that way.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Since when has God been any good at logical planning?

Best post ever made on this forum.

Stil no good answer to my question.

Where are all the christians?

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

If jesus was sent to save man because man was going in a downward spiral, then god's creation is imperfect according to god's own standards.

Right. The only way the whole jesus thing makes sense, is that we aren't up to the standards of our perfect creator that designed everything about us. It's that basic conflict - there's no way around it.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Stil no good answer to my question.

Where are all the christians?

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Simple question. If Jesus had been the first man, instead of Adam, would not everything have worked out the way god supposedly desired?

Why didn't god just make Jesus the first man?

I can't see how the christians can squirm around on this one.



Your not going to get a clear answer, If christians say that Jesus wouldn't make a difference if he were the first man then that's saying Jesus wouldn't be perfect. If they say he would've then that means god "messed up."

Ok, I'll explain it to you. The whole history of the Universe is sort of like a computer program. What will happen has already been scripted, as was what happened. Yet, there exists free will, because the whole Universe develops in a single instant in time, which we percieve as infinite. God is the Universe, and all within. Therefore, he is omniscient and Omnipresent, because everything is a part of him. The script is God's plan. For his plan to work it must be perfect, and whatever has happened is perfect. What we call Bad is bad because we feel it to be against our will in some way, but there is actually no bad or good, since all is God's will, and all works according to his plan. So, if he decided to send Adam and then Jesus, it was because it was supposed to be that way. His plan is the only perfect outcome. So, why, you say, does he not conform to logic. Here's why: Any one event, as tiny as it may be, will have an infinite amount of consequences, which will in turn produce another amount of consequences, and so on. Only God can follow the logical outcome of every one of these, because they are a part of Him, and His perception is not hampered by our relativistic notion of time. So, only one given set of events will produce a desirable outcome for all events, and the entire Universe itself. God's perfection is not only based on perfect deeds within the physical confines, but it stretches across infinity in time, so He is Absolutely perfect. This is the mechanism of the Universe laid down in short form, and I'll be happy to answer any questions on specific areas of it. My e-mail is hector_capuano@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:



+ 1 christian?

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:



+ 1 christian?

Actually this whole thing was God just toying with Satan. Satan thinks he's won at last when God says, "Lol u noob." and locks him up in his

own hell.

According to the Mormons, man requested a test to prove their loyalty to God. This test was freewill, in the form of the knowledge of sin.

Then again, the Mormons are a very modern religion, and closed a lot of the loopholes and paradoxes in more traditional Christianity by having a relatively modernist prophet and theology.

Claiming "gods will" is a good way to say we don't know.

You are soooooooooooOOOoooooooOOOOOo sOOOOOOO incredibly stupid.

I don't even know where to start... the first human was the first homosapian/homoerectus whatever you want to call it, we are fucking monkeys... Anyway that was thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago.

Okay, dumbass!!! B.C. = before Christ. Dumbass!!!

Jesus was a human born just like you and me, not created out of thin air by God himself. People made Christianity, not God. Hmm! The only thing that made Jesus Jesus was that he was The Way, he lived The Way, he was The Way. That was Jesus. You suck so much.

quote:Originally posted by LavaRed:

The whole history of the Universe is sort of like a computer program.

Mama always said, "Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know whatcha gonna get".

I've been told "we are all God's children." that is why.

Jesus WAS the first man.

So, good question, you're stumbling upon the truth. Don't let mainstream Christianity blind you from true knowledge.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

I also fail to see how by placing mans free-will on himself God is made less knowing powerful or good.

God is less good because God knows that incredibly large numbers of human beings are going to, presumably, be subjected to eternal torture simply based on the decisions made within plus or minus 40 years. What makes the situation worse is that if God really was omnipotent, then it means God could have constructed reality in such a way as to allow free-will without allowing all the negative results that often branch from it.

With great power comes great responsibility. With infinite power comes infinite responsibility. In effect, God is directly responsible for all pain, anguish, suffering, and evil in the world. God had the power, ability, and knowledge to craft a reality in which none of those things exist and yet is still meaningful and interesting to other sentient beings.

God, for whatever reason, did not. Thus, God cannot be both omnipotent/omniscient and all-loving.

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Bungle:

You are soooooooooooOOOoooooooOOOOOo sOOOOOOO incredibly stupid.

I don't even know where to start... the first human was the first homosapian/homoerectus whatever you want to call it, we are fucking monkeys... Anyway that was thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago.

Okay, dumbass!!! B.C. = before Christ. Dumbass!!!

Jesus was a human born just like you and me, not created out of thin air by God himself. People made Christianity, not God. Hmm! The only thing that made Jesus Jesus was that he was The Way, he lived The Way, he was The Way. That was Jesus. You suck so much.

Actually you are the dumbass. The question was "why didn't god create Adam like jesus - perfect and pure". You completely misunderstood the question and went on a personal attack and rant that made, quite frankly, no sense at all.

Sense when has Jesus been a man?

Jesus is the exact same thing as Adam, just a million times more spiritual. God didn't control what either of them thought about/did; in God's eyes, both of them were human. Period. The fact that Jesus came along and had all his followers and followed God's rules and shit is a whole different story.

quote:Originally posted by 73cv:

Jesus is the exact same thing as Adam, just a million times more spiritual. God didn't control what either of them thought about/did; in God's eyes, both of them were human. Period. The fact that Jesus came along and had all his followers and followed God's rules and shit is a whole different story.

The bible says jesus was made special to die for all the people who god didn't make as good. What book are you getting your jesus story from?

My understanding of Christianity is that Jesus was the solution to the problem, (the Original Sin and the corruption of mankind), whilst the first man was the beginning of the problem.

What's the point of sending the solution, Jesus, when there is no problem? (If he was the first man, Adam and Eve wouldn't have been around to cause the downfall of humanity.)

Because Jesus had to be baptized by a holy man to recieve his vision from God (In this case, John), If Jesus had been the first man, then no one else could have risen to a place of higher authority in the world to conduct this baptism, and Jesus would have just been another dead soul.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Red Raven:



God is less good because God knows that incredibly large numbers of human beings are going to, presumably, be subjected to eternal torture simply based on the decisions made within plus or minus 40 years. What makes the situation worse is that if God really was omnipotent, then it means God could have constructed reality in such a way as to allow free-will without allowing all the negative results that often branch from it. [/quote]



To address the first part; My understanding is that God will not eternally punish anyone, that the punishment would be self inflicted. Bad acts cause us to be tied solely to the flesh, making it harder to really let go. But that is just my interpretation, and moot point at the moment anyway, I think.





If God did make the world where no negative outcome would be possible , would we really have any Free-Will? By this I mean to be free on must have choices to make. Decisions on their basic level may be given a status of Good or Bad. If we cannot perform Bad acts we have no choice other than Good acts. If we have lost our choice between one or the other then we do not have free-will.



To put it another way, if we cannot at least see the effects of a Bad act we cannot differentiate between Good and Bad. We are given empathy so that we know when we are hurting people, we know when people are happy.





With great power comes great responsibility. With infinite power comes infinite responsibility. In effect, God is directly responsible for all pain, anguish, suffering, and evil in the world. God had the power, ability, and knowledge to craft a reality in which none of those things exist and yet is still meaningful and interesting to other sentient beings.

God, for whatever reason, did not. Thus, God cannot be both omnipotent/omniscient and all-loving.

God is responsible for the pain and suffering in the world in the same way a parent is responsible for a child. God could possibly be said to be responsible directly for the natural problmes in the world. I can't think of anyway to dispute that. But I still don't feel that we should place all the blame on God on our own acts. Sure god could stop people doing bad, sure he could make this a happy happy world.... But.... I can't help but imagine this world as devoid of meaning.... No matter how muich I think about God making us always happy never bored and entirely immortal I can't help but feel that the world would be a worse place devoid of any real feeling....

I don't know. Maybe I just like this world too much. And I don't have to put up with anything bad, There's no reason for me to notice the pains of the world.

Oh well. Fuck.

Adam was the original sock.

Jesus was just there to darn a hole.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Simple question. If Jesus had been the first man, instead of Adam, would not everything have worked out the way god supposedly desired?

Why didn't god just make Jesus the first man?

I can't see how the christians can squirm around on this one.

The adam and eve creation story is a story with no metaphoric meaning or anytihng. my religion teacher and preist said so. dont take it seriously. thats waht they said. they say that cuz science has disproved it so many times.

quote:Originally posted by El Coolio:

[QUOTE]The adam and eve creation story is a story with no metaphoric meaning or anytihng. my religion teacher and preist said so. dont take it seriously. thats waht they said. they say that cuz science has disproved it so many times.



Maybe you are just joking, but I think most christians believe god made the first man, and that everything was built to some kind of godly design that people fucked up. Isn't that the basic premise of the whole religion?

Adam and Eve is obviously just a story to prove a lesson. Except the snake is whitey, and the moral is, never trust whitey!