How are we supposed to believe in him if he hasn't gives us proof of his existence? and don't give me you have to have faith bullshit. I'm slowly starting to believe in Charles Darwin's theory.

What kind of sign are you wanting?

the answer is simple. He's not real

quote:Originally posted by gimna.blazed:

I'm slowly starting to believe in Charles Darwin's theory.

One should judge a theory on its scientific soundness nothing else.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

One should judge a theory on its scientific soundness nothing else.

Ditto. gimna.blazed, your belief in God precludes you from believing in evolution? If you lose your faith in God, you will believe in evolution without evidence for it's veracity? Or have you educated yourself enough on the topic of evolution enough to come to a positive conclusion , but your belief in God stops you from accepting what has become evident to you?

it could be a test to filter out "idolaters"

worked for moses.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

the answer is simple. He's not real

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

the answer is simple. He's not real



Where's ya proof?

well I think him not giving us signs of his existence is his way of testing our faith

As for Darwin's theory I believe both. I think that god made evolution and the big bang and all that stuff

I can't remember who came up with the theory, but it goes along the lines that we need a distance from God to do any good. If we KNEW God was there , and that we would get a whooping if we did anything bad. We wouldn't do anything bad, but bad people would still exist.

Or seomthing along those lines... I'm not very coherant right now....

I really did want an answer to my question...

What kind of sign are you wanting?

What kind of sign are you wanting? ^^^

Also, I believe in God, and evolution.

The real question is, if God is sending you signs, are you listening?

Jesus said that asking for signs from God will earn you a one-way ticket to hell.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

I really did want an answer to my question...

What kind of sign are you wanting?

Well if Jesus was a so called healer than why couldn't there be another Jesus who can heal people?

lol, dont ask totse why you should or shouldnt believe in somthing, believe what your gut, or heart, tells you to believe.

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Tree:

What kind of sign are you wanting? ^^^

Also, I believe in God, and evolution.

The real question is, if God is sending you signs, are you listening?



Bravo. Props, kudos,and so on.

Well said.

God communicates with us in many ways, but most of the time, we aren't paying attention. Sometimes he sends people to speak for him--Masters, gurus, shamans, saints, whatever you want to call them--and they are usually ignored, reviled, rebuked, or killed outright, like the guy who got nailed to a tree a couple of millenia ago.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Where's ya proof?



logic

Well, some christians think that 9/11 is a sign from god that we need to hate gays a little more.

About 9/11

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen." - Jerry Falwell

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals." - Jerry Falwell



quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

I can't remember who came up with the theory, but it goes along the lines that we need a distance from God to do any good. If we KNEW God was there , and that we would get a whooping if we did anything bad. We wouldn't do anything bad, but bad people would still exist.



That makes no fucking sense. So instead of having bad people do nothing bad...let's have bad people cause suffering! What a better world it is now that serial killers and pedophiles are allowed to be who they are! I can totally follow god's logic!

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:



Bravo. Props, kudos,and so on.

Well said.

God communicates with us in many ways, but most of the time, we aren't paying attention. Sometimes he sends people to speak for him--Masters, gurus, shamans, saints, whatever you want to call them--and they are usually ignored, reviled, rebuked, or killed outright, like the guy who got nailed to a tree a couple of millenia ago.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Where's ya proof?

quote:Originally posted by gimna.blazed:

Well if Jesus was a so called healer than why couldn't there be another Jesus who can heal people?

Because we don't NEED another person to come and wash away all of our sins. That was His purpose. Not to just physically heal people.



Jesus/God supposedly already came to this earth. Why send another?

EDIT: People have very unlikely and unreasonable expectations of what they think God should do. He's not gonna make something extraordinary happen that the whole world knows about and can't explain. Not in these times.



[This message has been edited by Merlinman2005 (edited 01-08-2007).]

To start a new religion

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

the answer is simple. He's not real

If he helped too much, we would become reliant on him, if he helped to little we would loose faith in him.

Futurama has the answers!

I thought it was something among the lines of testing faith or God's Mysterious Ways(TM)

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:



Bravo. Props, kudos,and so on.

Well said.

God communicates with us in many ways, but most of the time, we aren't paying attention. Sometimes he sends people to speak for him--Masters, gurus, shamans, saints, whatever you want to call them--and they are usually ignored, reviled, rebuked, or killed outright, like the guy who got nailed to a tree a couple of millenia ago.

Jesus had a following, and so do many relatively new religious figures.

I get signs all the time...I'm also looking. Are you?

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

Sometimes he sends people to speak for him--Masters, gurus, shamans, saints, whatever you want to call them...

Speaking for "Him"....or....speaking for "Us". The two are not separate, but we think they are?

Maybe, therein lies the problem?

quote:Originally posted by gimna.blazed:

How are we supposed to believe in him if he hasn't gives us proof of his existence?

Depends on your god-view(see Power Vs Force by David R. Hawkins), how do you see god? In your mind, when you think of god what do you visualise?

Visualisation is a powerful influence and most of us have had an image of 'god' imposed on our minds from a very young age by our most significant others. Let's say you visualise the common understanding of god as having aspects we would describe as vindictive, or condemning - that is, he is going to judge you good or evil and punish sins. Compared to another's god-view that god is love, and love does not keep account of wrongs. Put's one into a totally different headspace, s place where we are empowered to think and experiment without fears of reprisal. When it comes down to it the theory of evolution is a good way to describe the world we see around us but not actually provable due to missing links etc,: quote:the Theory of Evolution (natural competition and selection), on which rests a substantial part of our ecological and environmental understanding, as well as explanations of higher animal embryo development etc., is (the only?) scientific theory not capable of falsification - and thus is not consistent with the scientific method. Karl Popper himself argued that the theory of evolution was not capable of scientific falsification and therefore must be considered a pre-scientific or a-scientific theory. One must either believe it or not. It cannot be tested (and thus cannot be proved). So, the classical exposition of the scientific method itself is incomplete, then. It is not the only recipe for progress and understanding (whatever progress and understanding might be).

The theory of evolution and natural selection is nothing more than a plausible story of how we came to be here - but it is a very good story, which is both substantially coherent (it hangs together and makes logical sense) and consistent with our observations of the world. It allows us to explain how things came to be. But it does not allow us to make predictions about what they will become. So it is not a science in the strict sense that science requires there to be a symmetry between explanation and prediction, on the grounds that unless we can test the predictions, we cannot be sure of our explanations. So, perhaps the theory of evolution is better suited to our conception of what a good social science ought to look like, then? http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/david.harvey/AEF801/Why/Realism.html



but it could work in another sense. If God is Mind, Consciousness, Awareness,

quote:"The universe is a living thing endowed with soul and reason." (Zeno - founder of Stoicism)

"God is Consciousness that pervades the entire universe of the living and the non-living."

-Ramakrishna

"THE ALL (which is the Substantial Reality underlying all the outward manifestations and appearances which we know under the terms of "The Material Universe"; the "Phenomena of Life"; "Matter"; "Energy"; and, in short, all that is apparent to our material senses) is SPIRIT which in itself is UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE, but which may be considered and thought of as AN UNIVERSAL, INFINITE, LIVING MIND.

"THE ALL IS MIND; THE UNIVERSE IS MENTAL."--THE KYBALION."



Are we fractals of that mind as asserted by many teachers past and present? Could it be that evolution has occurred by a mental process, that is: the "UNIVERSAL, INFINITE, LIVING MIND" is thinking up the different forms of existence in a constant process of change which we call evolution?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Are we fractals of that mind as asserted by many teachers past and present? Could it be that evolution has occurred by a mental process, that is: the "UNIVERSAL, INFINITE, LIVING MIND" is thinking up the different forms of existence in a constant process of change which we call evolution?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I really haven't seen or heard very many things that would suggest that we are evolving. It seems to me that "there is nothing new under the sun". Things are cyclical and repetitive, and sometimes are just packaged a bit differently.

Humans have created god in their image

Why no signs?

Ok, lets assume God exists.

God is not present, anywhere. He does not intervene at all. This much is obvious.

This is a HUGE aspect of our existence. God wouldn't just NOT intervene with this world for no reason. There MUST be some great, fundamental reason as to WHY he does not intervene.

I will give you a theory as to why he doesn't intervene.

God is building us up. We are not being, rather we are becoming. We are always becoming. This world is not perfect, at least to us. We are not perfect, at least to ourselves and the rest of the world. But we always strive to become better. And we are always kicked down, pushed down into the dirt , throughout our entire lives.

And God is nowhere to be found to help us. Except in "prayer" and other things that seem even more distant than abstract concepts like mathematics.

We are lost without God. We have no one to tell us what is right, except the church which claims to know what God wants, even though they have been wrong in the past and have admitted to being wrong, and I'm pretty sure they are still worng.

So who do we ask? The only person we can ask is ourselvs. This is an immensely difficult task. How can we ever do such a thing? Create our own values and ethics? Decide how to live? What if we're wrong?

God has purposely chosen not to intervene with this world at all in order to build up the human spirit, the human essence. In existence, in living through this world and expierincing it, we learn and grow. Each day we live is another day of expierence. Each day is a new set of decisions and challanges that can either lead to a good or bad outcome.

We can say these decisions don't really matter, or we can say they are paramount. Now if God was around to tell us what to do, these decisions wouldn't be that hard, and in fact, they wouldn't be decisions. If all matter around you dissipated and you were in a place of white light, and God spoke to you, told you what to do, would there even be any decisions left to make?

No. You now know for a fact that God exists. Why wouldn't you follow his word?

But God hasn't come down and proved without a doubt for you that he exists. He has not given you directions. He has left this up to you and its extremely difficult.

This is the point. God has purposely chosen not to be presnt, not to be apparent in order for us to take responsibility of our own existence. To be masters of our own reality. And in doing so this is the only way we can grow and learn. This is what gives our lives meaning. God has chosen to grant us the ultimate freedom. This ultimate freedom allows us to experience existence in a genuinely unique way. It's pretty intense if you think about it.

This is the only solution I could come up with to the "Where the hell is God?" problem. Its either this or he doesn't exist.

sign = proof

if there is proof there cannot be faith

if there is no faith then there is no God

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

the answer is simple. He's not real

Like..

this kind of sign (http://tinyurl.com/am8y3)?

[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited 01-11-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by purplekhanabooze:



This is the point. God has purposely chosen not to be presnt, not to be apparent in order for us to take responsibility of our own existence. To be masters of our own reality. And in doing so this is the only way we can grow and learn. This is what gives our lives meaning. God has chosen to grant us the ultimate freedom. This ultimate freedom allows us to experience existence in a genuinely unique way. It's pretty intense if you think about it.

This is the only solution I could come up with to the "Where the hell is God?" problem. Its either this or he doesn't exist.



See but thats assuming god was here at any point. Creationism is fucken bullshit.

whatever it is there is definitely god or something that fits a general description.

quote:Originally posted by Sentinel:

Like..

this kind of sign (http://tinyurl.com/am8y3)?



and that shows what exactly? that there are rocks and mountains and shit on the earth... well JESUS FUKN CHRIST!!! it must be proof that the mythical man in the clouds is real... hahahahaha

quick question, how come all religions claim to be the 'true' religion, but never have any more proof than the other that this is so... and dont go on about faith and shit, coz its a fukn cop out for the weak of mind and you know it...

religion is a money maker, always has been, its just a shame that so many people get caught up and fukt over because of it...

the catholic church is the most powerful ORGANISATION in the world, so dont go saying religion isnt about power...

i fukn hate religion, ive got nothing personal against those who are religious, i just reckon its a fukn cop out, stay true to yoursefl, not some twisted fantasy book about a bloke who walks on water, then changes it to wine, then pulls fish out of it, just to kill himself on behalf of everyone... yeah makes a whole lot of sense... HAHAHAHAHA...

rant over...im done

quote:Originally posted by wastedpixels:

and that shows what exactly? that there are rocks and mountains and shit on the earth... well JESUS FUKN CHRIST!!! it must be proof that the mythical man in the clouds is real... hahahahaha

quick question, how come all religions claim to be the 'true' religion, but never have any more proof than the other that this is so... and dont go on about faith and shit, coz its a fukn cop out for the weak of mind and you know it...

religion is a money maker, always has been, its just a shame that so many people get caught up and fukt over because of it...

the catholic church is the most powerful ORGANISATION in the world, so dont go saying religion isnt about power...

i fukn hate religion, ive got nothing personal against those who are religious, i just reckon its a fukn cop out, stay true to yoursefl, not some twisted fantasy book about a bloke who walks on water, then changes it to wine, then pulls fish out of it, just to kill himself on behalf of everyone... yeah makes a whole lot of sense... HAHAHAHAHA...

rant over...im done



wasted pixels indeed.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

wasted pixels indeed.

obviously a bible banger huh? ah well, chin up mate, good luck with...nothing actually coz you have "god on your side" right? haha...

quote:Originally posted by gimna.blazed:

How are we supposed to believe in him if he hasn't gives us proof of his existence? and don't give me you have to have faith bullshit. I'm slowly starting to believe in Charles Darwin's theory.

Why hasn't anyone sent *us* a sign? Open your eyes kiddo; signs are all around you. The real question is why the hell haven't you seen them yet?

quote:Originally posted by wastedpixels:

obviously a bible banger huh? ah well, chin up mate, good luck with...nothing actually coz you have "god on your side" right? haha...

Good boy, that's a good boy, now here's a lolly pop, now, off you pop.

Toodle-pip

Obviously because he doesn't have to prove himself to you.

Cheers,

MOTO

God sends you signs every day, we're flooded in them. Wether you interpret them in a Christian, Islamic, Buddhist or whatever way, it doesn't matter.

Once (and for most it's a matter of when, not if) you hit rock bottom, you will have nothing except for listening to yourself and god.

Knowing that your place in the cosmos is beautiful and intricately important.

What can it hurt to have an open mind? Compare a faithful person's calm to your cynicism. Isn't that a gift?

God could assert that he exists with a simple sign, without having to make us reliant on him.

And obvious sign, hmm.... how about he occasionally spell the word "God is watching" with clouds every once in a while? Enough that everyone can witness it once?

Or maybe he could spell the word "god" in the Sun?

It's not hard to think of more blatant signs.

Why the fuck should signs be subtle? And don't shower me with that "faith" bullshit, because I'm sure an intelligent god would know that defies logic, and since logic is the only thing that humans have progressed with so far, that anyone intelligent is going to rely only on that and not the Faith™.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:

Compare a faithful person's calm to your cynicism. Isn't that a gift?

I agree. Ignorance is bliss.

I notice a lot of claims that 'God sends many signs', yet no-one has actually said what these signs are.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

See but thats assuming god was here at any point. Creationism is fucken bullshit.

Okay, I know my post was long, but if you re-read it the first thing I said was.. "Ok, lets assume God exists."

This argument is about why god hasn't sent us a sign, IF HE EXISTS. This argument was not whether or not he exists.

And the basis of my theory was that god created the world and set it in motion, like a fine-tuned machine. Thus evolution is just part of god's mechanics. I don't believe in creationsim and agree that it is bullshit.

oh and the bit about god setting the universe in motion and then leaving it is called deism, I didn't make it up, just incorporated it into my theory. I mean deism make sence, since gods obviously not chillin with the homies or raining fire and brimstone down on us.

Every explanation for the origin of the world requires faith in one thing or another. It is just up to the person to accept what they are most comfortable with.

quote:Originally posted by oc6:

Speaking for "Him"....or....speaking for "Us". The two are not separate, but we think they are?

Maybe, therein lies the problem?



Semanitics is a bitch, ain't she?

For convenience, I speak of God as if he/she/it/them/whatever were really a discrete entity, but I really know better.

As far as I'm concernd, I am God; thou art God; and all that groks is God.

quote:Originally posted by The Violent Pacifist:

Every explanation for the origin of the world requires faith in one thing or another. It is just up to the person to accept what they are most comfortable with.

No it doesn't, faith is belief without evidence. There's plenty evidence for the scientific version of creation.

I don't believe in God.

This video here talks covers a decent debate on your question, give it a chance, its not the video you would expect. Good watch though, some really good points by the black dude.

http://tinyurl.com/ydhebs

quote:Originally posted by wastedpixels:



the catholic church is the most powerful ORGANISATION in the world, so dont go saying religion isnt about power...



So that's why abortion is still legal... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I think the most powerful organization would at least do a little more.

I suppose that's why the pope commands the U.N., too?

Methinks perhaps the Catholic church is just another granfalloon.

FUCKTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD

You guys are yet to convince me of his existence. All you can say Is are you looking for signs, God is in your heart, keep faith etc. Being logical, isn't it fair to say God is

just a made up person and the kingdom of Heaven is just a made up place to comfort us on our fear of death?

Relating to the title....it's spelled "Gott". http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Easy! he stopped coming and sending messages when Jesus died (for a reason i cant remember at the moment). but anyways you want a sign well how about if you look back through time you can clearly see gods plan unraveling,something non-beleivers calls"just a coincedence" big fucking coincedence id say(also this proving you cant deny the fact it has happened even if its a coincedence. by the way just to tell you the bible is the only thing to 100%acurately predict the future. if your looking for a sign then how bout the the tribulations or the rapture. I think thats a pretty huge sign!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Easy! he stopped coming and sending messages when Jesus died (for a reason i cant remember at the moment). but anyways you want a sign well how about if you look back through time you can clearly see gods plan unraveling,something non-beleivers calls"just a coincedence" big fucking coincedence id say(also this proving you cant deny the fact it has happened even if its a coincedence. by the way just to tell you the bible is the only thing to 100%acurately predict the future. if your looking for a sign then how bout the the tribulations or the rapture. I think thats a pretty huge sign!

You don't half talk crap, do you.

And what is this God's plan unravelling, and what non-believers call a coincidence? I have a feeling you're referring to evolution, in which case you've misunderstood it.

As for 100% predicting the future, that's an amusing oxymoron.

quote:Originally posted by Kooper0:

You don't half talk crap, do you.

And what is this God's plan unravelling, and what non-believers call a coincidence? I have a feeling you're referring to evolution, in which case you've misunderstood it.

As for 100% predicting the future, that's an amusing oxymoron.

no actually im refering to gods plan! I myself cannot explain it correctly everytime i try i just confuse the other person(not to good at explaining things) but it does make sense to me.try and find someone that knows about this and learn from them. seriously research it you might just change your mind.

quote:Originally posted by Social Junker:

Relating to the title....it's spelled "Gott". http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Sorry I noticed I type fast and don't look back

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

no actually im refering to gods plan! I myself cannot explain it correctly everytime i try i just confuse the other person(not to good at explaining things) but it does make sense to me.try and find someone that knows about this and learn from them. seriously research it you might just change your mind.





Try anyways. It's better to try and mess it up than the just quit before you start.

Also, kudos to King_Cotton for using the word granfalloon! That thumbs-up is for you, baby!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

no actually im refering to gods plan! I myself cannot explain it correctly everytime i try i just confuse the other person(not to good at explaining things) but it does make sense to me.try and find someone that knows about this and learn from them. seriously research it you might just change your mind.



It just seems like a ridiculous way to avoid any critical questions.

Q. Why does _____ happen?

A. Oh, it's just part of God's plan.

I shouldn't have to look for a sign, if it is fuckin God then I'm sure that god could do something to convince me, which has yet to happen.

** Deuce Omen

quote:Originally posted by DeuceOmen:

I shouldn't have to look for a sign, if it is fuckin God then I'm sure that god could do something to convince me, which has yet to happen.

** Deuce Omen

Exactly my point.

Isn't everything including this thread a sign that you're looking for? I mean. They all fit the profile, anyone and anything could be a sign. Why is it that you're not seeing that?

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Isn't everything including this thread a sign that you're looking for? I mean. They all fit the profile, anyone and anything could be a sign. Why is it that you're not seeing that?

Anything could be a sign, but that doesn't mean anything is a sign.

quote:Originally posted by Kooper0:

I notice a lot of claims that 'God sends many signs', yet no-one has actually said what these signs are.

quote:Originally posted by DeuceOmen:

I shouldn't have to look for a sign, if it is fuckin God then I'm sure that god could do something to convince me, which has yet to happen.

** Deuce Omen

Spicy!

quote:Originally posted by DeuceOmen:

I shouldn't have to look for a sign, if it is fuckin God then I'm sure that god could do something to convince me, which has yet to happen.

** Deuce Omen

If He did "convice" you, then you wouldn't be able to say "I don't believe in Him."

I almost wanna say that takes away a bit of your free will, because then you won't be able to choose a life of nonbelief, because then it would just be denial.

He can't do anything as big as that.

oh, plus, it depends on what it takes to convince each individual person.

Most of the signs from the bible were natural disasters and such. Look at all the natural disasters that have happened recently, Hurricane Katrina for instance. If we didn't have the science to understand the cause of this, we would have taken this as God smiting New Orleans i'm guessing. I feel like God works in many mysterious ways. But there have been times in my life where by the grace of God i have lived. If you open your eyes and your heart to God you can see him everywhere and there will be no doubt in your mind that God has a path for you and that many things are meant to happen.

quote:Originally posted by Docta_Gonzo:

Most of the signs from the bible were natural disasters and such. Look at all the natural disasters that have happened recently, Hurricane Katrina for instance. If we didn't have the science to understand the cause of this, we would have taken this as God smiting New Orleans i'm guessing. I feel like God works in many mysterious ways. But there have been times in my life where by the grace of God i have lived. If you open your eyes and your heart to God you can see him everywhere and there will be no doubt in your mind that God has a path for you and that many things are meant to happen.



Well... God hates blacks and gays.... Says in the Bible...

quote:Originally posted by gimna.blazed:

How are we supposed to believe in him if he hasn't gives us proof of his existence?

He sends it, your just not listening.

quote:Originally posted by Cyberdan735:

He sends it, your just not listening.



So is anybody going to actually say what these signs are?

quote:Originally posted by Cyberdan735:

He sends it, your just not listening.



Listening to what??