After several months of not coming on to My God Can beat the shit out of your god, I came back and noticed everyone is talking about the problem of evil and that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent yet doing nothing about suffering.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they question God as their ruler and the almighty. Therefore they brought up the question "Does god have the right to tell us good and bad?"

Sure when Adam and Eve sinned he could've forced them to do what is right or killed them and started again. But he gave us free will, and would forcing us to do something against our will let us enjoy life like he originally wanted? Also what would have happened if he killed them and the devil and started over? What would all the angels and future "subjects" think if they found out?

So God let Humans and the devil have their course of rebellion in order to show everyone that his way is the best. Over the years man has tried many many forms of government and self rule but nothing has worked out and has resulting in sickness, death, 2 world wars, many genocides, etc. (Ecclesiatics 8:9)

In conclusion look up daniel 2:44, then pslams 37:10,11 and Rev. 21:1-4.

Discuss

Postulation 1 God is omniscient - he knows everything including what happened, what is happening and what is happening.

Postulation 2 drawn from 1 - God knows what personal choices and paths the human will take, therefore the future is set and fate exists.

Postulation 3 drawn from 2 - A predetermined path for each human means that the human cannot make a truly independent and free choice, as one has already been made.

Conclusion 1 - A lack of choice in one's life and the existence of fate cannot exists along with free will.

Conclusion 2 drawn from 1 - Omniscience, fate and free will cannot exist.

Solution 1 - God is not completely omniscient

Solution 2 - Humans have no free will

Solution 3 - God does not exist

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

Postulation 1 God is omniscient - he knows everything including what happened, what is happening and what is happening.

Postulation 2 drawn from 1 - God knows what personal choices and paths the human will take, therefore the future is set and fate exists.

Postulation 3 drawn from 2 - A predetermined path for each human means that the human cannot make a truly independent and free choice, as one has already been made.

Conclusion 1 - A lack of choice in one's life and the existence of fate cannot exists along with free will.

Conclusion 2 drawn from 1 - Omniscience, fate and free will cannot exist.

Solution 1 - God is not completely omniscient

Solution 2 - Humans have no free will

Solution 3 - God does not exist



No

No

No

Like you said

"Postulation 2 drawn from 1 - God knows what personal choices and paths the human will take"

Key word: Personal.

God does not make the decisions for us. Though He supposedly knows what we'll do, that doesn't mean we lack free will. No way, no how.

"Postulation 3 drawn from 2 - A predetermined path for each human means that the human cannot make a truly independent and free choice, as one has already been made."

Yes. Made by THE HUMAN. So what's the problem?

The material world is made by the Demiurge, an ignorant being, and thusly all suffering (see: sin, evil) is merely a result of ignorance. The solution is knowledge, or Gnosis.

The only one that creates suffering is YOU, by allowing yourself to stay trapped in this physical world. Desire breeds suffering. Transcend the physical world.

Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge (a mushroom) was the best thing that has happened in a while.



[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 01-09-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:



No

No

No

Like you said

"Postulation 2 drawn from 1 - God knows what personal choices and paths the human will take"

Key word: Personal.

God does not make the decisions for us. Though He supposedly knows what we'll do, that doesn't mean we lack free will. No way, no how.

"Postulation 3 drawn from 2 - A predetermined path for each human means that the human cannot make a truly independent and free choice, as one has already been made."

Yes. Made by THE HUMAN. So what's the problem?



Except for the part that the human has not made this choice.

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

Except for the part that the human has not made this choice.

Then refine your false postulates to convey this false view.

Don't say He knows what choice we will make, then say we don't make choices. Derr.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

Then refine your false postulates to convey this false view.

Don't say He knows what choice we will make, then say we don't make choices. Derr.

My point is this: you will be a chemist. You didn't make this choice yet, but you will be a chemist. Nothing you can do will stop you from being a chemist. Your fate is to be a chemist. You think you will chose to be a chemist, but you are predetermined to be a chemist. Oh wait...free will...right...

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

My point is this: you will be a chemist. You didn't make this choice yet, but you will be a chemist. Nothing you can do will stop you from being a chemist. Your fate is to be a chemist. You think you will chose to be a chemist, but you are predetermined to be a chemist. Oh wait...free will...right...

The only reason it's predetermined is because you were gonna make the choice. You DO choose to be a chemist. If you were gonna choose to be a friggin' terrorist, then it would have been your fate to be a terrorist.

The choice is yours.

But I already know nothing I say will make you go "OOOOH, OKAY, I GET IT NOW." Arguing the whole Free Will vs Predetermination thing has gotten old for me over the years.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

The only reason it's predetermined is because you were gonna make the choice. You DO choose to be a chemist. If you were gonna choose to be a friggin' terrorist, then it would have been your fate to be a terrorist.

The choice is yours.

But I already know nothing I say will make you go "OOOOH, OKAY, I GET IT NOW." Arguing the whole Free Will vs Predetermination thing has gotten old for me over the years.



You will be a chemist, no matter what. That is not free will

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

The only reason it's predetermined is because you were gonna make the choice. You DO choose to be a chemist. If you were gonna choose to be a friggin' terrorist, then it would have been your fate to be a terrorist.

The choice is yours.

But I already know nothing I say will make you go "OOOOH, OKAY, I GET IT NOW." Arguing the whole Free Will vs Predetermination thing has gotten old for me over the years.



You will be a chemist, no matter what. That is not free will

Not exactly.

Think about it like this: there are an infinite number of possible universes where you do an infinite number of things. You don't choose what you do, you merely choose which universe you inhabit. Thus, there is both free will and determinism.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Not exactly.

Think about it like this: there are an infinite number of possible universes where you do an infinite number of things. You don't choose what you do, you merely choose which universe you inhabit. Thus, there is both free will and determinism.

I got your point from the start, but the fact that since *YOUR* fate in *THIS* universe is already predetermined it does not allow for variation. If you are in a car with a driver, you want to go to the zoo, you don't tell the driver that you do, but the driver takes you to the zoo anyway, you didn't exactly chose to go to the zoo, there is no free will here. Same in life, if your life is set in a straight line, you are not driving the car of your life, you are being driven by a driver. Yes I do qualify your point, but I do not reject my own. What else did you expect in a religion debate?

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

I got your point from the start, but the fact that since *YOUR* fate in *THIS* universe is already predetermined it does not allow for variation. If you are in a car with a driver, you want to go to the zoo, you don't tell the driver that you do, but the driver takes you to the zoo anyway, you didn't exactly chose to go to the zoo, there is no free will here. Same in life, if your life is set in a straight line, you are not driving the car of your life, you are being driven by a driver. Yes I do qualify your point, but I do not reject my own. What else did you expect in a religion debate?

What you're saying either makes no sense or is entirely irrelevant. Your fate in EVERY universe is "predetermined" in the sense that anything that CAN happen WILL happen. So for all intents and purposes, you have free will. In the big picture though, everything is predetermined. That doesn't really have any effect on your life, though.

Except you are describing the multidimensional model of the universe, not the Christian model of the universe to which I was referring to.

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

Except you are describing the multidimensional model of the universe, not the Christian model of the universe to which I was referring to.

You're right, I was saying that the model which you are speaking of is completely and totally flawed.

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:



Solution 1 - God is not completely omniscient

Solution 2 - Humans have no free will

Solution 3 - God does not exist

That IMO would fall under solution 3 - God, defined under the Christian world model, doesn't exist.

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

That IMO would fall under solution 3 - God, defined under the Christian world model, doesn't exist.

Wtf? Why did you quote yourself and then say that? What are you babbling about?

He was showing you his conclusions n stating that in the multidimensional example where both free will and preD existed, he couldn't see a God existing as well... I believe.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

He was showing you his conclusions n stating that in the multidimensional example where both free will and preD existed, he couldn't see a God existing as well... I believe.

Then why didn't he quote what I said?

And how does the infinite universe idea negate the idea of a God at all?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Then why didn't he quote what I said?

And how does the infinite universe idea negate the idea of a God at all?



I dunno, maybe so you could easily see his reference to solution three, or something

and

*shrugs*

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Wtf? Why did you quote yourself and then say that? What are you babbling about?

I quoted myself so you don't have to scroll up to see what I meant by solution 3. Because OP referred to "Adam and Eve" I proceeded to analyze the Christian understanding of the universe and god. The Christian model has one(1) god and one(1) universe (ask priests and preachers how many universes are there, they're the christian "experts").

There is another option here that you have all missed.

God could have created beings that were both free and never made a morally destitute decision. The two are not mutually exclusive and therefore the questions should be posed:

"If God is all loving, all powerful and all knowing why wouldn't God create beings that were both free and that always made the benevolent choice"

Either he could but didn't, couldn't or can't tell what choices a person will make. You take your pick but any conclusion refutes the traditional understanding of God.

Yes, one way of avoiding theistic logical problems is creating a new religion.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

The material world is made by the Demiurge, an ignorant being, and thusly all suffering (see: sin, evil) is merely a result of ignorance. The solution is knowledge, or Gnosis.

The only one that creates suffering is YOU, by allowing yourself to stay trapped in this physical world. Desire breeds suffering. Transcend the physical world.

Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge (a mushroom) was the best thing that has happened in a while.





I see what you did thar, bringing Yaltabaoth into this.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

The only reason it's predetermined is because you were gonna make the choice. You DO choose to be a chemist. If you were gonna choose to be a friggin' terrorist, then it would have been your fate to be a terrorist.

The choice is yours.

But I already know nothing I say will make you go "OOOOH, OKAY, I GET IT NOW." Arguing the whole Free Will vs Predetermination thing has gotten old for me over the years.



There is no choice if one selection is predetermined as the chosen.

[This message has been edited by socratic (edited 01-09-2007).]