What follows is a quick write up i did for a local group of Reagan lovin', WWJD wearin', "W" supportin' "christians."

Jesus Christ: Conservative or Liberal?

A short time ago I decided to take on the investigation of answering question on whether Jesus Christ would agree with more of the standpoints of the modern American left or that of the modern American right. I attempted to go about the procedure in a strictly scientific and unbiased way. Therefore I set these rules ahead of time.

1. Ten issues that liberals and conservatives constantly disagree about would be researched in the gospels.

2. The evidence must come from Jesus himself. This means that only the four gospels can be used and then only the words or actions of Jesus himself.

3. The quotes used from the bible must directly involve the issue at hand. Therefore I could not use the quote "Jesus liked to collect teddy bears" to validate the point that 'Jesus wanted grizzly bears to be placed on the endangered species list.'

4. If an issue is not directly addressed, the issue must be placed in the 'Undecided' category.

5. If the issues that aligned with Jesus' stated beliefs were dominantly sided with one of the political ideologies (my personal number was set at four degrees of separation, but that is completely subjective and for my personal gratification. Feel free to set your own.) then, from empirical evidence, Jesus could be described as having the beliefs of a modern American liberal or modern American conservative.

6. In the event of a tie (I am for some stupid aesthetic reason using the even number of ten), or the degree of separation is three or less then Jesus will be described as a moderate.



The Issues (in no particular order):

1. The Environment

There is no biblical teaching concerning environmentalism, much less quotes directly from Jesus. This is understandable because they did not have coal burning refineries polluting their air and drinking water at the turn of the common era. Logical deduction can reason that God would not want his creations destroyed and contaminated by pollution, but there is no evidence of this in the bible. Therefore, this issue is Undecided.

2. Economy

For this issue the fight is basically a focus on capitalism. Would Jesus want us to invest capital to make gains for ourselves? Let’s refer to Matthew 6:24 “Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” Alright, what is mammon? Mammon is used in the New Testament to describe material wealth or greed. Now, let us look at capitalism. Capitalism is the system of trade where a free market is incorporated to allow Adam Smith’s ‘invisible hand’ to guide the economy. That invisible hand is a metaphor showing how those who seek wealth by following their individual self-interest will inadvertently stimulate the economy. For example, the businesses will use competition to entice the consumer to buy from them. So, through greed, capitalism grows. That sounds a little against the teaching of not loving money. Therefore, I deduce that Jesus would not take kindly to a capitalistic market. On the topic of economics, the nod goes to the Liberals.

3. Abortion

I found, startling enough, only one instance of abortion being directly mentioned in the bible. It was in exodus 21:22 “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely, or she has a miscarriage, but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.” It states that if a miscarriage were to happen it would be “no serious injury.” An interesting digression, but not from the gospels, and therefore Undecided.

4. Taxation

In Matt 17:24-30 we see that Jesus, in fact, pays taxes. “After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the tax?" "Yes, he does," he replied” From this we learn that Christ did not live outside of the laws of taxation, and neither should we. Whether or not there should be a tax is not addressed, but from his actions we see that Christ paid taxes.. ..until: Mark 12:17 says “Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.” Therefore, on the issue of taxation, Jesus sided more with the Liberal point-of-view.

5. The Death Penalty

This is a very hotly contested issue. For the pro-capital punishment side of the argument we can see that Jesus does condone the death penalty for denying that he is the son of God. Luke 19:27 states: “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” This crime, of course, lines up with what is known as the ‘unforgivable sin’ or denying one of the members of the holy trinity. It is not clear whether or not crimes of the world would qualify for this punishment. On the other side of the argument, we see the infamous story which gives us the “those without sin, cast the first stone” (matt 23) quote. From inference we can deduce many things from the crucifixion, biblical opinions in a system which has accidentally put to death the innocent, and other such articles of debate, but these are just inferences. From the evidence given, I think that the issue is pretty much stalemated, so to be safe I go with Undecided.

Alright, we are halfway done, let’s see the cumulative scores:

Undecided: 3

Liberal: 2

Conservative: 0



6. Warfare

Jesus’ stance on warfare can be seen in both Matt and Luke. First Matt 26:52 “"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.” The statement “put your sword back in its place” clearly states that he wanted no violence during his arresting. This is further reinforced by the statement in Luke 3:14 “Do violence to no man..” I believe that this is proof enough that Jesus would want us, given the opportunity, to use diplomacy and pacifism in all occasions. Therefore this issue goes to the side of the Liberal.

7. Welfare

The welfare system is to help the poor and those who cannot help themselves. Besides the fact that this is one of the most repeated actions of Jesus, I will give a few examples. Jesus himself condemned people who did not help the poor. “"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'“ (Matt 25:41-42). I believe that if Jesus condemned a person to hell for not helping the poor, he would not frown upon the welfare system. He would perhaps frown on the poor way it is being handled, but not the idea in itself. On this issue, Jesus was definitely a Liberal.

8. Free Healthcare

Before we get into the meat of this, I wish to note that the conservatives oppose free healthcare because privatized healthcare is a very prosperous business-- refer to issue #2 for more on this. Now, for the direct assessment of this issue. Jesus constantly healed people and looked for no reimbursement. I feel that there are so many instances of this that I need not source them here. True, this was not his profession and he did not use this as his major source of income. Doctors in a free healthcare society, however, do not go unpaid. In the majority of Europe and in Canada doctors are paid a good wage for the work that they do, but from the government, not those that they heal. When privatized healthcare comes into play the rich begin to receive better healthcare than the impoverished who receive little or none at all. This is obviously against many actions and teachings of Jesus. Therefore this issue goes to the Liberals.

9. Homosexual Marriage

Jesus never spoke directly about homosexual marriage. He did speak of marriage (as many neo-cons quote) in Matt 19:4, but this was simply talking about divorce, not on the issue of whether or not homosexual marriage is a sin. Furthermore, in the old testament, homosexual sex, not marriage, was condemned.. ..but I digress again. So, since Jesus never directly spoke of this, it is Undecided.

10. Separation of Church and State

This issue is concerning whether or not the issues of the church should be dictated by the state, or vice versa. Jesus said in John 18:36 that “My kingdom is not of this world..” While this can be taken symbolically many ways it cannot be used as evidence, but I personally believe that this dictates the separation of church and state. Now, let’s look again at Mark 12:17 “Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.” This can be seen as a separation of church and state as well, but since it is directly concerned with taxes and taxes only, we must leave this at Undecided.

So the final tally is:

Undecided: 5

Conservative: 0

Liberal: 5



There you have it. After scientific study and examination of the gospels, it is proven that Jesus would be more accurately associated with the beliefs of the modern American liberal than that of the conservative.. ..much less those of the neo-cons.

~frank

That was a nice read. I did have something further to add, but I've forgot what it was now.

In anycase, it was well written and I liked it...

Oh yeah, The "bring my enemies before me and slay them", isn't a direct quote from Jesus. Jesus is telling a parable about a man who gives his servants some money to make it back, we are told that he is made a king and the people don't like him. Anyway, when he comes back he has one of the slaves punished for not making any money back. It's basically a reinforcement of the Reap what you sow. Although the Owner of the estate could be likened to god. It is, however, not Jesus instructing his disciples to slay his enemies.

Well done.

at that particular time period (roman domination and jewish influence), and everyone being equal under god, it was very liberal, but in our historical context, it is conservative

Thanks, JesuitArtiste-- i shall amend in in future use.

Jesus was so completely beyond our little political system that its a total waste of time trying to justify your beliefs by attaching his name to them.

heres a comeback from the other side, before i start id like you to remember this, this country was based on christian-judeo beliefs which is at the moment making this topic on the conservatives side

enviroment- youre right about this issue: neutral

economy- you sound exactly like all the liberal socialists in our government. i dont know the exact scripture he says this in or the exact words but what it means is you should earn your money by working. in a capatilistic society you work for what you get and you dont get handouts. socialist dont even have to go to work and they get the same money as someone who worked overtime. :conservative

abortion: well lets see here if all the pastures and preachers are against it doesnt that say something. you call it neutral but for this you must look at the morality of the issue it is very immoral and jesus would always speak against immmorality :conservative

taxation: this would be a neutral/undecided because noone would say get rid of taxes we still have taxes. seems to me at this point your bieng very biased :neutral/undecided

Death penalty: jesus says to practice forgivness and even though those people may deserve it it seems a little bit unchristian but we are not perfect like him and its hard for us as humans to tell the government to not kill someone who raped and killed a 9 yr. old girl. im not sure of what his oppinion on this matter would be so ill call it neutral : neutral/undecided

halfway point

neutral/undecided=3

liberals=0

conservatives=2

Warfare- yes jesus would not approve of war in how it was used in the old days. yes he would not like war but in the bible he also says protect the weak. it is our duty as the last remaining superpower to help the weak of the world. you might be able say how some of the nations use war but america has gone to war with the terrorists who prey on the weak. if we left there and stopped war many innocent people would die, therefor i dont think he would be dissapointed in the conservatives but yet in the liberals for allowing inocent deaths.

:conservative

welfare- i would have to agree helping poor people who are struggleing and need help is a good thing. but i do have somebit of arguement many people on welfare abuse it for thier entire lives and have never worked for it jesus would be against thier actions but would not be against welfare itself conssidering it does help somepeople.

ill give this one to the liberals

:liberals

Free healthcare- i agree free healthcare is a good thing. keep in mind though i do not know much on this topic and am pretty sure there is a good reason to the conservatives have to dissagreing with , if they even do at all (ive wittnessed many lies liberals have told to get votes)since i do not kno much tho i cant argue. :liberals

homosexual marriage- jesus never spoke about this when he was alive for the fact it was not an issue. but again we must go back to the morality of the topic. a reminder jesus would be sagainst anything immoral since thats what he stood for, hommosexuality in the first place is very immoral therefore he would be against it, let me go a little deeper though, to the bible marriage is very sacred it is for the purpose of reproducing it justifies sex(premarital sex is a very much a sin), so there is quite no purpose for gays to be married in the first place seeing as how they can not reproduce. so really there is no point for gays to want to mariage and since marriage is a religous thing(created by god) the government should stay the hell out of it they have no power to tell our religion what to except and not except.

:conservatives

seperation of church and state- there is nothing about the christians beleifs that aint in our constitution for the fact it was based on christian judeo beleifs. thier is nothing of our religion that discrimates against or takes natural rights away from any group of people, wether or not the church should be seperated from the sate it would still be the same since anything we stand for would already be in the constitution. i could go farther with this but its probably already to long and i already proved my point but anyways this would be a neutral :neutral/undecided

Conservative=4

Liberal=2

undecided/neutral=4

it seems mor issues ar for the conservatives than liberals making the winner conservatives.(if this would have had more issues then it would probably mean the conservatives would have crushed the liberals.

in your so called "scientific study" you commited a big scientific nono, you didnt look at the whole bigger picture the bible is more complex than just smal bits of scriptures there are many scriptures that add on to one. Jesus was all for morality which is why we would preach against immoral stuff dont you think? Jesus would also never dissagree with anything in the bible for it is his and his fathers book. if its in the bible jesus would stand for it. this was a more acurate study and more unbiased. you may think im very biased but i stand with the church and not the government, i stand by what the bible says and not some corrupt politician. understand most my issues where based on morality and cannot be disputed for jesus would be more morally correct(which you cant deny) where the conservatives stand, than politicaly corrupt(which bascialy means immoral) with the liberals.



ps. nice try liberal scumbag



[This message has been edited by Masta Thief (edited 01-10-2007).]

Don't forget the time he went postal in the temple, overturning tables and assaulting vendors.

He was a young man at the time, but still, that would show a rather anti-business bias.

And that is antithesis to conservatism, which is basically pro-business and anti-environment, anti-honesty, anti-humanity, and--if one looks at Ann Coulter--anti-common decency.

To 'Masta Thief':

You quote not one --not one-- passage of scripture in your argument and you dare have the audacity to challenge the fact that my research is not scientific?

You, sir, need to actually read what is in that book of yours and stop parroting out what your preachers say. I have no problem with you holding an opinion, but please -please- make it your own, not an adoptation of an authority figure.

Further more, i would suggest you looking into the 'judeo-christian'-ness of our deist founding fathers. Or does that clash with your indoctrinationist brainwashing?

And, to the point that christ holds the exact same stance as the rest of the bible, perhaps you should enlighten me as to how this adds us with contradictions? Such as the "cast the first stone" story contradicts the old Mosaic laws. If Jesus said that he upholds all of the old laws, how can he make exceptions? ..perhaps this is a debate for a different time, but you brought up the point, and i felt the need to address it.

~f

(edit to address M.T.)

[This message has been edited by Oculus (edited 01-10-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

Don't forget the time he went postal in the temple, overturning tables and assaulting vendors.

He was a young man at the time, but still, that would show a rather anti-business bias.

And that is antithesis to conservatism, which is basically pro-business and anti-environment, anti-honesty, anti-humanity, and--if one looks at Ann Coulter--anti-common decency.



FUCK YOU you LIBERAL BITCH!!! go kill some more babys! anti-honesty? remember the speech "I did not have sex with that women!" yea whatever that guy rode her like the whore she was!anti-humanity? you know what will happen if we leave iraq? huh do ya? the Iranians and the Syrians will invade Iraq and take over, killing millions of innocent people, we have a obligation/policy to go to war with any aggressors of any kind. This will mean a mass scale war killing many people, it will increase violence in the isreal hezzbolah conflict and many other nations in the middleeast will want to provide help to thier towl head brothers, creating more violence in the middle east. we might be cut off from oil seein as how they control it, which end up in a stock market crash, and it would bring America to our knees, meanwhile the russians our bigger allys with iran than us and will go to thier aid, since iran just also happens to be N. Koreas ally they will come to thier aid but first would have to take over S.Korea, and in 1 day of N.Korea invading S.Korea millions will die, so know that N.Korea is a aggressor guess who we have to go to war with now? So now The West (western europe,usa,austrailia, and israel) is at war with most the East probably through this amount of war and violence i'd venture to say prob. half a billion people would die, and thats not counting if China was to get in it! i bet once our economy crashed all you liberal fucks would want to bring the nuke out. so much for your humanity speach. im not done yet either. by about a year after Iran will have Nukes and N.korea already does which it would be my guess that they would want to launch simultaniously. now other people on there side already have nukes but thier not stupid enough to use them unlike these fuckers. no there not going to be able to launch though because the second they got them they just got wiped off the map! MILLIONS of people would die from this. that would end the war after that no1 would want to fight. but it came at a cost of over a quarter of the earths population. kinda sounds like WWIII dont ya think?!? so now where recovering from the war, and since where all christians here you should know that the anti-christ comes to power through peace, you wanna know how we know the anti-christ is here he builds a metropilis trading center in the middle east, thats how we idnetifye him. after ww3 were goin to be wantin to rebuiild the middle-east , what a better time to build a metropilis trading center in the middle east than its rebuilding. im not goin any farther with this but as you can see it was WWIII followed by the end of the world. and nearly a billion dead. and if your an athiest the out come would be worse because the nice little bombings with a nuke in a christians eyes would end the war because the world would end with the anti christ in power followed by armageddon, but athiest if your thinkin in a non-religous way everyone would nuke everyone ending the world in that way. say what you but thats a proven fact (worldwar3 fear part)and is what makes the middle east such a delicate area. well lets look back and compare our damage to yours? ours- 3 thousand troops dead (the best death toll for a war in history)and hundreds of thousands of muslim extreamists(terrorist) dead! Yours- WWIII causing a quarter of the worlds population of deaths followed by the end of the world(in a christians eyes), or if your an athiest then the outcome would be the end of the world. yea your right your way is a lot better. im like somewhat of a history expert and all the specialist agree that this is a possible outcome if we left and Iran and Syria was to invade Iraq. it aint called the most delicate and hostile region of the world for nothing. plus most of the worlds major religions beleive the end of the world is coming soon! liberals are immoral and corrupt and not afraid to admit why the fuck would you ever agree with anything they say!

owned you sit down when you pee!!! You Liberal Bastard!!!

quote:Originally posted by Oculus:

To 'Masta Thief':

You quote not one --not one-- passage of scripture in your argument and you dare have the audacity to challenge the fact that my research is not scientific?

You, sir, need to actually read what is in that book of yours and stop parroting out what your preachers say. I have no problem with you holding an opinion, but please -please- make it your own, not an adoptation of an authority figure.

Further more, i would suggest you looking into the 'judeo-christian'-ness of our deist founding fathers. Or does that clash with your indoctrinationist brainwashing?

And, to the point that christ holds the exact same stance as the rest of the bible, perhaps you should enlighten me as to how this adds us with contradictions? Such as the "cast the first stone" story contradicts the old Mosaic laws. If Jesus said that he upholds all of the old laws, how can he make exceptions? ..perhaps this is a debate for a different time, but you brought up the point, and i felt the need to address it.

~f

(edit to address M.T.)





dude listen he preaches againt immorality! somehting you cant deny!!! if liberals say that they are political correct rather than morraly correct then their obviously not on gods side, consrvatives are openly christian and think the way they do because of that fact! they are morraly correct got that! liberals would not deny what i just said. because they openly admit it all the time.read this very slowly and think what it says and means. and to the fact that i dont know scripture its because i didnt have weeks to study the bible for my info, but yet i already took what i knew about jesus teachings and happen to be facts and you could not prove what i said wrong but yet i could prove you wrong!

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

Don't forget the time he went postal in the temple, overturning tables and assaulting vendors.

He was a young man at the time, but still, that would show a rather anti-business bias.

And that is antithesis to conservatism, which is basically pro-business and anti-environment, anti-honesty, anti-humanity, and--if one looks at Ann Coulter--anti-common decency.

also another thing i forgot to say to both of you is

1. if your so for humanity explain to me how you will not address the problems of sudan and darfur? why dont you give aid to them, the y desperatly need it but you decide that war should not be allowed and let those people dye? how can you live with yourself you? you worry about people smoking but yet you want to legalize pot and kill little babies? you say were indecent but yet you not only allowed to stay but re-elected a man who commited adultry and also had a wife who had over 200 FBI files on her desk to spy on people(illegal to a persons FBI file even a president) and both sold nuclear inteligence to China? you are the same people who elected a convicted pedifile to stay in congress and serve eight more years in the 80's are you not? dont preach to me about indecentcy you my friend are part of a socialist corrupt party.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

Don't forget the time he went postal in the temple, overturning tables and assaulting vendors.

He was a young man at the time, but still, that would show a rather anti-business bias.

And that is antithesis to conservatism, which is basically pro-business and anti-environment, anti-honesty, anti-humanity, and--if one looks at Ann Coulter--anti-common decency.

He didn't assualt anyone at all.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

He didn't assualt anyone at all.

Actually he whipped people.

To Masta Theif:

Someone obviously does not know how to debate things in a civil tone. Im off to work, but i shall reply to your post when i get home.

quote:Originally posted by Oculus:

Actually he whipped people.

To Masta Theif:

Someone obviously does not know how to debate things in a civil tone. Im off to work, but i shall reply to your post when i get home.

What the fuck??? he never whipped people or assaulted anyone , thats a made up story from people who believed in christ and god because they had heard about him but was too far away to understand everything and didnt know how to cope with the fact of how could the son of god be killed. so they made stories to cope with it and none of it is historically acurate or even a reliable source seeing as how the stories where made up by someone who lived 200 hundred yrs after the time of his death nor could even possibly had a member of thier village had been there for the fact it happened thousands of miles away(ruling out they heard from a relativeor member of the community) like i said up top it was just a way to cope with the idea that the son of god could be killed.(who rose three days later)

[This message has been edited by Masta Thief (edited 01-11-2007).]

Masta theif,

I read your responce and it was almost entirely modern justification of conservative values. I would have accepted you claiming jesus had the wrong idea, much easier. And everyone (except buttthrax, maybe) looks down on name calling in lew of actual debate, WWJD?

For the reccord I'm agnostically athiest, and jesus the man, as far as the king james bible description was fairly liberal and even downright socialist at times from what recall in sunday school. His political orientation means nothing to me other than the contrasting polaraity of the people who claim to embrace his values more than their political counterparts.

Use original Greek text please

Masta Thief = troll.

All of you should read Jim Wallis' book God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It. I heard him speak over summer, he's really good. He's even been on the cobert report. For those of you interested in this subject, definitley read that book. My family just got a copy of it, so I'm going to start it soon.

lol @ supply-side Jesus.

Socially a conservative, economically a libertarian?

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Socially a conservative, economically a libertarian?

It's hard to seperate Jesus' views on economics and society, its basically all 1.

I mean he said, give all your money to the poor. Now that would be viewed as economics, but he also meant it as a way of life, as a way to act towards the poor as a society.

Jesus - cared for the poor and taught against getting a bunch of money and possessions

Conservatives - don't give a fuck about the poor and will do anything for profit

Jesus was definitaley not a conservative.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

3 thousand troops dead (the best death toll for a war in history)

The "best death toll" in history is NO DEATH TOLL, you dumbass. I can go replying to all your mind-numbing "points", but why bother?

You obviously need to read history and re-read the Bible. Since you're an ignorant child (sorry for any children I offended), let me give you some thoughts to ponder:

<LI> American founders - mostly deist, with a touch of Freemasonry.

<LI> Jesus taught compassion, not conservatism. Would Jesus agree that war begets peace? Does the means justify the end. No, war begets war, and peace only comes through forgiveness /pacifism/etc.

<LI> Sudan/Darfur - America is not the doctor of the world. When does it say in the Bible that America should fuck around with every country as they see fit? Exactly. To counter your retort: why doesn't Europe do anything about Darfur?

<LI> Where in the Bible did it say that Jesus participated in the Stock Market? Or joined the Fortune 500 investors group, started a lucrative healing center, etc.? Nowhere, because he said spirituality and love comes before materialism (money).

<LI> Missed the "Love thy neighbor" tidbit? All your posts show anger and hate. Try lightening up?

(Note: these are my observations, you are free to comment on them to your hearts desire.)

quote:Originally posted by Oculus:

Actually he whipped people.

To Masta Theif:

Someone obviously does not know how to debate things in a civil tone. Im off to work, but i shall reply to your post when i get home.

No, he whipped animals, and not in a vicious way, just to make them GTFO so they wouldn't get hurt.

Masta Thief, your intolerance, ignorance, illiteracy, inarticulate speech patterns, and other failings just make christians as a whole look even stupider.

Which, I am all for.

Keep up the good work.

And by the by, stealing is a sin, masta.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

heres a comeback from the other side, before i start id like you to remember this, this country was based on christian-judeo beliefs which is at the moment making this topic on the conservatives side

enviroment- youre right about this issue: neutral

economy- you sound exactly like all the liberal socialists in our government. i dont know the exact scripture he says this in or the exact words but what it means is you should earn your money by working. in a capatilistic society you work for what you get and you dont get handouts. socialist dont even have to go to work and they get the same money as someone who worked overtime. :conservative

abortion: well lets see here if all the pastures and preachers are against it doesnt that say something. you call it neutral but for this you must look at the morality of the issue it is very immoral and jesus would always speak against immmorality :conservative

taxation: this would be a neutral/undecided because noone would say get rid of taxes we still have taxes. seems to me at this point your bieng very biased :neutral/undecided

Death penalty: jesus says to practice forgivness and even though those people may deserve it it seems a little bit unchristian but we are not perfect like him and its hard for us as humans to tell the government to not kill someone who raped and killed a 9 yr. old girl. im not sure of what his oppinion on this matter would be so ill call it neutral : neutral/undecided

halfway point

neutral/undecided=3

liberals=0

conservatives=2

Warfare- yes jesus would not approve of war in how it was used in the old days. yes he would not like war but in the bible he also says protect the weak. it is our duty as the last remaining superpower to help the weak of the world. you might be able say how some of the nations use war but america has gone to war with the terrorists who prey on the weak. if we left there and stopped war many innocent people would die, therefor i dont think he would be dissapointed in the conservatives but yet in the liberals for allowing inocent deaths.

:conservative

welfare- i would have to agree helping poor people who are struggleing and need help is a good thing. but i do have somebit of arguement many people on welfare abuse it for thier entire lives and have never worked for it jesus would be against thier actions but would not be against welfare itself conssidering it does help somepeople.

ill give this one to the liberals

:liberals

Free healthcare- i agree free healthcare is a good thing. keep in mind though i do not know much on this topic and am pretty sure there is a good reason to the conservatives have to dissagreing with , if they even do at all (ive wittnessed many lies liberals have told to get votes)since i do not kno much tho i cant argue. :liberals

homosexual marriage- jesus never spoke about this when he was alive for the fact it was not an issue. but again we must go back to the morality of the topic. a reminder jesus would be sagainst anything immoral since thats what he stood for, hommosexuality in the first place is very immoral therefore he would be against it, let me go a little deeper though, to the bible marriage is very sacred it is for the purpose of reproducing it justifies sex(premarital sex is a very much a sin), so there is quite no purpose for gays to be married in the first place seeing as how they can not reproduce. so really there is no point for gays to want to mariage and since marriage is a religous thing(created by god) the government should stay the hell out of it they have no power to tell our religion what to except and not except.

:conservatives

seperation of church and state- there is nothing about the christians beleifs that aint in our constitution for the fact it was based on christian judeo beleifs. thier is nothing of our religion that discrimates against or takes natural rights away from any group of people, wether or not the church should be seperated from the sate it would still be the same since anything we stand for would already be in the constitution. i could go farther with this but its probably already to long and i already proved my point but anyways this would be a neutral :neutral/undecided

Conservative=4

Liberal=2

undecided/neutral=4

it seems mor issues ar for the conservatives than liberals making the winner conservatives.(if this would have had more issues then it would probably mean the conservatives would have crushed the liberals.

in your so called "scientific study" you commited a big scientific nono, you didnt look at the whole bigger picture the bible is more complex than just smal bits of scriptures there are many scriptures that add on to one. Jesus was all for morality which is why we would preach against immoral stuff dont you think? Jesus would also never dissagree with anything in the bible for it is his and his fathers book. if its in the bible jesus would stand for it. this was a more acurate study and more unbiased. you may think im very biased but i stand with the church and not the government, i stand by what the bible says and not some corrupt politician. understand most my issues where based on morality and cannot be disputed for jesus would be more morally correct(which you cant deny) where the conservatives stand, than politicaly corrupt(which bascialy means immoral) with the liberals.



ps. nice try liberal scumbag



Do you have any idea what the word "fallacious" means?

Jesus was a fucking independent. He voted for Nader!!!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



FUCK YOU you LIBERAL BITCH!!! go kill some more babys! anti-honesty? remember the speech "I did not have sex with that women!" yea whatever that guy rode her like the whore she was!anti-humanity? you know what will happen if we leave iraq? huh do ya? the Iranians and the Syrians will invade Iraq and take over, killing millions of innocent people, we have a obligation/policy to go to war with any aggressors of any kind. This will mean a mass scale war killing many people, it will increase violence in the isreal hezzbolah conflict and many other nations in the middleeast will want to provide help to thier towl head brothers, creating more violence in the middle east. we might be cut off from oil seein as how they control it, which end up in a stock market crash, and it would bring America to our knees, meanwhile the russians our bigger allys with iran than us and will go to thier aid, since iran just also happens to be N. Koreas ally they will come to thier aid but first would have to take over S.Korea, and in 1 day of N.Korea invading S.Korea millions will die, so know that N.Korea is a aggressor guess who we have to go to war with now?Cut for length reasons]

Hold on, that's a big ass wall of text here. I think what you're trying to say is that us leaving irag will cause a war that will lead to world war three or something? Yeah, I got some words for you:

Slippery Slope

Slipper Slope is defined as something among the lines of "If A happens, then by a gradual series of small steps through B, C,…, X, Y, eventually Z will happen, too.

Z should not happen.

Therefore, A should not happen, either." (fallacyfiles.com)

In other words, shut the fuck up.



[This message has been edited by akiratheoni (edited 01-11-2007).]

this thread makes my head hurt.

I always thought Jesus was a very liberal guy, which is why I often laugh at how hypocritical the Christian ultra-right wing "family values" politicians are.

Jesus wouldn't involve himself in petty political disputes! Nor religious ones!

quote:Originally posted by KKKalamari:

Jesus wouldn't involve himself in petty political disputes! Nor religious ones!

Whatchu sayin' 'bout Hayzeus?

Jesus would be an anarchist. If humans acted the way Jesus wanted them to, anarchism would be doable. But even with anarchism you still have liberal and conservative.

i only have one comment because there are too many ignorant and false statements to deal with in reference to Mastathief. This is it:

Morality is a matter of opinion. no doubt. so everything you say is just an impassioned idea of what you and only you feel is just. You should probably start accepting that other peoples opinions will be around and influential forever, it is human nature to not settle- thus the anti-humanity comment about christians, because they decide to just trust the big man in the sky with all their issues, they're fine with sending teenagers offf to die, but wont give the mother the choice whether or not to have a child.... fuck it.

quote:Originally posted by Molotov Everything:

Do you have any idea what the word "fallacious" means?

..... Seriously.... I couldn't read it .... But....

I laugh .... I laugh long and hard....

Masta Theif, Jesus is watching and he's not liking your tone http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

I'm conservative.

†Jesus†

Jesus had one thing in common with conservatives; he was self-righteous and a moral absolutist.

Masta Thief, you obviously spent a considerable amount of time writing your posts (though probably not much time thinking about what you were writing). How hard can it be to use paragraphs?

Jesus: pro-grammar, pro-punctuation, pro-spelling.

Jesus: Against purile, 18th century Protestant arrogance.

Ie, the heart of the American political system http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Jesus wouldnt associate with shitty schools of thought, it seems far more likely he would say something along the lines of looking within you, to your pre-existent guide to life, not the one the local authority figure thinks is smart.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Jesus was so completely beyond our little political system that its a total waste of time trying to justify your beliefs by attaching his name to them.

You can't judge a historical figure by today's standards.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

heres a comeback from the other side, before i start id like you to remember this, this country was based on christian-judeo beliefs which is at the moment making this topic on the conservatives side

enviroment- youre right about this issue: neutral



no rebuttal herehave the skills for, like a chef or in hospitality marketing. That way you won't be stuck in a 9 to 5 mcdonalds pothole.

You are a dumbass+1

quote:

abortion: well lets see here if all the pastures and preachers are against it doesnt that say something. you call it neutral but for this you must look at the morality of the issue it is very immoral and jesus would always speak against immmorality :conservative



Like OP said, the only quote addressing it is not against abortion, but regardless it does not refer to the deliberate abortion and therefore is invalid. Other than that you are inferring or implying without an explicit statement. If you are going to do that you need to give all the other undecided ones to the liberals.

You are a dumbass +1

quote:

taxation: this would be a neutral/undecided because noone would say get rid of taxes we still have taxes. seems to me at this point your bieng very biased :neutral/undecided



Cannot agree with you more.

You are not a dumbass +1

quote:

Death penalty: jesus says to practice forgivness and even though those people may deserve it it seems a little bit unchristian but we are not perfect like him and its hard for us as humans to tell the government to not kill someone who raped and killed a 9 yr. old girl. im not sure of what his oppinion on this matter would be so ill call it neutral : neutral/undecided



Once again, no complaint here.

halfway point

You are not a dumbass=3

You are a dumbass=2

quote:

Warfare- yes jesus would not approve of war in how it was used in the old days. yes he would not like war but in the bible he also says protect the weak. it is our duty as the last remaining superpower to help the weak of the world. you might be able say how some of the nations use war but america has gone to war with the terrorists who prey on the weak. if we left there and stopped war many innocent people would die, therefor i dont think he would be dissapointed in the conservatives but yet in the liberals for allowing inocent deaths.

:conservative



Was there something about turning the other cheek? I reckon there was...

You are a dumbass+1

quote:

welfare- i would have to agree helping poor people who are struggleing and need help is a good thing. but i do have somebit of arguement many people on welfare abuse it for thier entire lives and have never worked for it jesus would be against thier actions but would not be against welfare itself conssidering it does help somepeople.

ill give this one to the liberals

:liberals



You are not a dumbass+1

quote:

Free healthcare- i agree free healthcare is a good thing. keep in mind though i do not know much on this topic and am pretty sure there is a good reason to the conservatives have to dissagreing with , if they even do at all (ive wittnessed many lies liberals have told to get votes)since i do not kno much tho i cant argue. :liberals



You are not a dumbass+1

quote:

homosexual marriage- jesus never spoke about this when he was alive for the fact it was not an issue. but again we must go back to the morality of the topic. a reminder jesus would be sagainst anything immoral since thats what he stood for, hommosexuality in the first place is very immoral therefore he would be against it, let me go a little deeper though, to the bible marriage is very sacred it is for the purpose of reproducing it justifies sex(premarital sex is a very much a sin), so there is quite no purpose for gays to be married in the first place seeing as how they can not reproduce. so really there is no point for gays to want to mariage and since marriage is a religous thing(created by god) the government should stay the hell out of it they have no power to tell our religion what to except and not except.

:conservatives



You said homosexual marriage- jesus never spoke about this

Any further reading was biased inference and plain bullshit.

You are a dumbass+1

quote:

seperation of church and state- there is nothing about the christians beleifs that aint in our constitution for the fact it was based on christian judeo beleifs. thier is nothing of our religion that discrimates against or takes natural rights away from any group of people, wether or not the church should be seperated from the sate it would still be the same since anything we stand for would already be in the constitution. i could go farther with this but its probably already to long and i already proved my point but anyways this would be a neutral :neutral/undecided



I no rebuttal, you are not a dumbass+1.

Final Tally:

You are a dumbass 3

You are not a dumbass 7

BUT WAIT!

quote: it seems mor issues ar for the conservatives than liberals making the winner conservatives.

You based your answers on inference rather than explicit evidence.

If I were to try to infer all the answers i'd see a tally like this

Environment-L

Economy-L

Abortion-C

Taxation-L

Death Penalty-L

Warfare-L

Welfare-L

Healthcare-L

Homosexual marriage - C

Separation of church and state - C

Making the final tally 7-3 for liberals as well as 7-3 for you not being a dumbass.



quote:

in your so called "scientific study" you commited a big scientific nono, you didnt look at the whole bigger picture the bible is more complex than just smal bits of scriptures there are many scriptures that add on to one. Jesus was all for morality which is why we would preach against immoral stuff dont you think? Jesus would also never dissagree with anything in the bible for it is his and his fathers book. if its in the bible jesus would stand for it. this was a more acurate study and more unbiased. you may think im very biased but i stand with the church and not the government, i stand by what the bible says and not some corrupt politician. understand most my issues where based on morality and cannot be disputed for jesus would be more morally correct(which you cant deny) where the conservatives stand, than politicaly corrupt(which bascialy means immoral) with the liberals.



The issue was " Jesus Christ: Liberal or Conservative?" Looking at any parts of a scripture other than jesus's teachings has the logical validity as charting africa's AIDS statistics and presenting them as statistics of the United States. You were making inferences on the issues that you didn't the outcome of based on pure scripture. This has the logical validity of saying "The tests for this HIV treatment was inconclusive in effects as well as side effects, but i am pretty sure it will work for no scientific reason at all. Let's market it OTC.

quote:

ps. nice try liberal scumbag



Do I need to address this?



[This message has been edited by Lamabot (edited 01-12-2007).]

What you are all forgetting is that Jesus was not only the son of God but that he was also God. You have to take the whole bible into any type of discussion like this. The bible does not contain all of Jesus statements and opinions. But it does contain pretty much all of God's and since they Jesus was God on earth...you get it? I don't feel like schooling all you liberals on the full depth and complexities of the bible and of the word of Jesus, but you can't just misinterpret a few selected phrases and portray Jesus as a baby killing homo. God destroyed two very large and sinful cities if you will remember, Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't exactly show the fag loving God you liberals want to push on everyone. And as for everything else, listen to what preachers across the world are saying, because they pretty much all agree and their job is to study and to know the bible. When anyone here gains a firm grip on the bible and pulls their heads out of their own liberal asses then would be a good time to have a conversation about all this. Now you just all sound like a bunch of pussy liberals nit-picking and trying to say your more Christian than conservatives. Nobody is gonna buy it, give up.

quote:Originally posted by Docta_Gonzo:

What you are all forgetting is that Jesus was not only the son of God but that he was also God. You have to take the whole bible into any type of discussion like this. The bible does not contain all of Jesus statements and opinions. But it does contain pretty much all of God's and since they Jesus was God on earth...you get it? I don't feel like schooling all you liberals on the full depth and complexities of the bible and of the word of Jesus, but you can't just misinterpret a few selected phrases and portray Jesus as a baby killing homo. God destroyed two very large and sinful cities if you will remember, Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't exactly show the fag loving God you liberals want to push on everyone. And as for everything else, listen to what preachers across the world are saying, because they pretty much all agree and their job is to study and to know the bible. When anyone here gains a firm grip on the bible and pulls their heads out of their own liberal asses then would be a good time to have a conversation about all this. Now you just all sound like a bunch of pussy liberals nit-picking and trying to say your more Christian than conservatives. Nobody is gonna buy it, give up.

Never told you I was liberal. First of all if you noticed the abortion and homosexual issues (which were the only ones you addressed) were Undecided (and if pushed i marked them towards conservative). Jesus and the OT god disagree on a lot of principles, such as forgiveness and pacifism. OT God decided almost all issues by death and condemnation while jesus resolved them with love and forgiveness. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is about the OT god not jesus. I don't see the word God in the topic title. Your entire reply can be summarized with

"God hates fags and is conservative because he agrees with me and i am conservative. I shall provide no evidence pertinent to the topic but will continue to push my unsupported point across, because you guys are too dumb to understand it. Oh yeah, and I hate liberals and fags."

It's hard to actually give any credit to something like that.

First of all, I would like to establish that fact that I am follower of Christ. With that being said, I think that you should take all of the bible's teachings into consideration. The bible teaches that Jesus is GOD so therefore, since the bible is inspired by God, the entire thing should be taken into account. One example that would counter your homosexuality side is Lev. 20:13: "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

There are many other examples to go against your statement, but I am to lazy to get them and type them.

Everyone knows Jesus is an anarchist!

quote:Originally posted by anton_skater:

First of all, I would like to establish that fact that I am follower of Christ. With that being said, I think that you should take all of the bible's teachings into consideration. The bible teaches that Jesus is GOD so therefore, since the bible is inspired by God, the entire thing should be taken into account. One example that would counter your homosexuality side is Lev. 20:13: "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

There are many other examples to go against your statement, but I am to lazy to get them and type them.

"I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful Than the love of women. 2 Samuel 1:26

Yeah god hates gays.

Exodus:

21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished

21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Because Jesus is god, he supports slavery? Nice!

Slavery in biblical times was not the same as our definition of slave. They were more like butlers, or like the common help. Similar to how illegals come and work in our fields. They were bound to their owner for life, but they were not whipped and beaten like our slaves were, and the living conditions were much better. A lot of the "slaves" of that time were also paid.

This doesn't explain "For he is his money" or in some versions "for he is his property"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Masta Thief:

[B]heres a comeback from the other side, before i start id like you to remember this, this country was based on christian-judeo beliefs which is at the moment making this topic on the conservatives side

enviroment- youre right about this issue: neutral

economy- you sound exactly like all the liberal socialists in our government. i dont know the exact scripture he says this in or the exact words but what it means is you should earn your money by working. in a capatilistic society you work for what you get and you dont get handouts. socialist dont even have to go to work and they get the same money as someone who worked overtime. :conservative

abortion: well lets see here if all the pastures and preachers are against it doesnt that say something. you call it neutral but for this you must look at the morality of the issue it is very immoral and jesus would always speak against immmorality :conservative

taxation: this would be a neutral/undecided because noone would say get rid of taxes we still have taxes. seems to me at this point your bieng very biased :neutral/undecided

Death penalty: jesus says to practice forgivness and even though those people may deserve it it seems a little bit unchristian but we are not perfect like him and its hard for us as humans to tell the government to not kill someone who raped and killed a 9 yr. old girl. im not sure of what his oppinion on this matter would be so ill call it neutral : neutral/undecided

halfway point

neutral/undecided=3

liberals=0

conservatives=2

Warfare- yes jesus would not approve of war in how it was used in the old days. yes he would not like war but in the bible he also says protect the weak. it is our duty as the last remaining superpower to help the weak of the world. you might be able say how some of the nations use war but america has gone to war with the terrorists who prey on the weak. if we left there and stopped war many innocent people would die, therefor i dont think he would be dissapointed in the conservatives but yet in the liberals for allowing inocent deaths.

:conservative

welfare- i would have to agree helping poor people who are struggleing and need help is a good thing. but i do have somebit of arguement many people on welfare abuse it for thier entire lives and have never worked for it jesus would be against thier actions but would not be against welfare itself conssidering it does help somepeople.

ill give this one to the liberals

:liberals

Free healthcare- i agree free healthcare is a good thing. keep in mind though i do not know much on this topic and am pretty sure there is a good reason to the conservatives have to dissagreing with , if they even do at all (ive wittnessed many lies liberals have told to get votes)since i do not kno much tho i cant argue. :liberals

homosexual marriage- jesus never spoke about this when he was alive for the fact it was not an issue. but again we must go back to the morality of the topic. a reminder jesus would be sagainst anything immoral since thats what he stood for, hommosexuality in the first place is very immoral therefore he would be against it, let me go a little deeper though, to the bible marriage is very sacred it is for the purpose of reproducing it justifies sex(premarital sex is a very much a sin), so there is quite no purpose for gays to be married in the first place seeing as how they can not reproduce. so really there is no point for gays to want to mariage and since marriage is a religous thing(created by god) the government should stay the hell out of it they have no power to tell our religion what to except and not except.

:conservatives

seperation of church and state- there is nothing about the christians beleifs that aint in our constitution for the fact it was based on christian judeo beleifs. thier is nothing of our religion that discrimates against or takes natural rights away from any group of people, wether or not the church should be seperated from the sate it would still be the same since anything we stand for would already be in the constitution. i could go farther with this but its probably already to long and i already proved my point but anyways this would be a neutral :neutral/undecided

Conservative=4

Liberal=2

undecided/neutral=4

it seems mor issues ar for the conservatives than liberals making the winner conservatives.(if this would have had more issues then it would probably mean the conservatives would have crushed the liberals.

in your so called "scientific study" you commited a big scientific nono, you didnt look at the whole bigger picture the bible is more complex than just smal bits of scriptures there are many scriptures that add on to one. Jesus was all for morality which is why we would preach against immoral stuff dont you think? Jesus would also never dissagree with anything in the bible for it is his and his fathers book. if its in the bible jesus would stand for it. this was a more acurate study and more unbiased. you may think im very biased but i stand with the church and not the government, i stand by what the bible says and not some corrupt politician. understand most my issues where based on morality and cannot be disputed for jesus would be more morally correct(which you cant deny) where the conservatives stand, than politicaly corrupt(which bascialy means immoral) with the liberals.



ps. nice try liberal scumbag



Congratulations! You may very well be the stupidest human alive!

PS. If you want some good reading try Leviticus. MAN there are some weird rules. One of wich is that as men we are not allowed to touch a woman on her period. LOL

[This message has been edited by tanz (edited 01-13-2007).]

Leviticus 18:21

Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD



SOOO no tatoos and you can't cut your hair or beard. But people get stuck on the whole homo thing when many of the rules are outdated.

The whole of Masta Thief's argument is based on a circular argument.

Jesus is against immorality

X is immoral

Jesus is against X

Just assuming whatever you are against is immoral and that he would agree is a large hole in your argument form. Rather, it would be more logical to take literally what he did say and deduce from there(as the OP did).