I was recently reading Sam Harris' A Letter to a Christian Nation when I stumbled upon the following verse, in which Jesus says:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Am I overlooking something, or does this verse make it pretty clear that Christians are unjustified in rejecting the Law of the Old Testament? I could not find anything in the context of this chapter that would nullify my interpretation.

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quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:



Am I overlooking something, or does this verse make it pretty clear that Christians are unjustified in rejecting the Law of the Old Testament? I could not find anything in the context of this chapter that would nullify my interpretation.

For the sake of this thread let's assume the statements in Matthew were in fact uttered by Jesus and not interspersions by later evangelists who were putting words into Jesus mouth in support of their vested interest. He does say that all the laws remained until they were fulfilled and, he is speaking prior to his crucifixion and resurrection which apparently were the fulfillment of those laws.

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quote:Originally posted by redzed:

For the sake of this thread let's assume the statements in Matthew were in fact uttered by Jesus and not interspersions by later evangelists who were putting words into Jesus mouth in support of their vested interest. He does say that all the laws remained until they were fulfilled and, he is speaking prior to his crucifixion and resurrection which apparently were the fulfillment of those laws.

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There seems to be a bit of ambiguity here. It seems to me that these laws are supposed to last until Jesus' second coming (or something like that), not until his crucifixion.

Matthew 5:18

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

You seem to be somewhat competent when it comes to Biblical stuff. Do you have anything to add?

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

There seems to be a bit of ambiguity here. It seems to me that these laws are supposed to last until Jesus' second coming (or something like that), not until his crucifixion.

Matthew 5:18

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

You seem to be somewhat competent when it comes to Biblical stuff. Do you have anything to add?

The scholars of the Jesus Seminar refute this passage as being an original saying from Jesus, rather they say it reflects the controversy within the early christian church as to whether the mosaic law with all it's regulations such as circumcision were still binding on christians. This view says that rather than dealing with the infallible words of a god-man, we are instead reaading the supplications of an evangelist with a particular and relative stance on the law. Note the verse says "until all things be accomplished". The new Living Translation renders that as "18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved."

The purpose of the mosaic law was to outline the duties and considerations required of one in relation to both our fellows and 'god'. The law does this in a negative fashion in effect pointing out faults an dleaving one under a conviction of sin which the myth continues was the purpose of Jesus life and sacrifice. A pivotal point is that on the cross with his dying breath Jesus cries "It is finished". This is why some christians point this out as the end of the requirements of the mosaic law, note also that the gospel story includes the tearing of the veil in the temple signifying the end of that system of sacrifice and seperateness between god and the people.

Jesus then presents the people with a new law of loving one another, an action which eliminates the need for any other law. This was not in fact a new law but a re-stating of laws already given but not chosen by Israel. (Recall at the Mount Sinai where the people were afraid to go up the mountain to meet god as did Moses, be aware the 'god' Moses met with is described as an angel in Hebrews, and recall that Moses brought down a law which he smashed upon seeing the Israelites worshipping the golden calf. He then returned to the mountain and the god/angel, who spoke out of the deep darkness, and returned with another law more suited to wayward and uncooperative ignorants.)

The debate continues between those who say we are still bound by some, or all, of the laws, and those who say when Jesus cried "It is finished", He was referring to that system of law that dealt with the people and their pain, suffering, and ignorance in a manner appropraite to that time. That is the historical record, which may be no more than a myth, an analogy comparing the ways in which an individual may seek to live their life.

Some want and need the reassurance of an organised religion and creeds, they are too dull or marginalised to realise the greater truths. They are like sheep they want to be led and have someone else to take responsibility/blame.

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