?_?

Of course animals don't have souls.

Humans are animals, by the way.

Souls don't exist.

There's a chance that animals have whatever humans do, in the way of the consciousness and connections. Higher mental functions, I think, are not a prerequisite for a "soul," whatever that is.

But all animals, or some animals, I do not know. There could be some that do not.

Question: By "animals," do we mean those in the kingdom animalia (which I wouldn't agree with), or all living things, such as plants, algae, and so on (which makes more sense to me)?



[This message has been edited by Merlinman2005 (edited 01-18-2007).]

It depends which animal.

I think chimps have 99% of a soul.

Depends on your definition of a soul, the complexity of the animals consciousness due to the evolution of its brain.

To generalize most of them....their souls are less individual like how ours are often assumed to be, and more like a 'over-soul'.

All my pets (3 cats and 1 dog) have had or have very distinct personalities, and I love them and believe that they love/loved me. So yeah, I think animals have souls. I think you must include all animals in this, and I think even animals like, say, bacteria have souls. Just in a little bacteria way that I don't understand. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Everything that has subtler bodies also has a soul. So yes, animals do have souls.

Souls aren't real, they're a concept created to explain our thoughts and behaviour when little was known about the brain.

[This message has been edited by Kooper0 (edited 01-18-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Gorcrow:

Of course animals don't have souls.

Humans are animals, by the way.

Souls don't exist.

Quoted for truth!

the funky chicken is pretty soulful.

What is a soul?

any being(organic) with a pineal gland has a soul.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

any being(organic) with a pineal gland has a soul.

What does a little lump of matter that produces melatonin have to do with whether or not you have a soul?

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

What does a little lump of matter that produces melatonin have to do with whether or not you have a soul?

Melatonin is not the only thing it produces, padawan.

have you read DMT - the spirit molecule?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

have you read DMT - the spirit molecule?

Yes, I'm aware that it produces DMT in very small amounts. I ask again, how is there any correlation between a small piece of matter and the existence of the soul? I've not read the book, so educate me.

[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 01-19-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Kooper0:

Souls aren't real, they're a concept created to explain our thoughts and behaviour when little was known about the brain.



Your thoughts and behavior are generally influenced by your frontal lobe, and your 'ego'. You are not your ego.

I am not really Obbe, Obbe the result of someone having all the life experiences i have had. The result of the nearly random code by DNA became when this body was created. This body is not mine, its just something I'm borrowing until I die.

Who you really are, is all the shit in the back of you're head. You are the consciousness experiencing an interpretation of reality due to how "your" brain happened to process the information it was ableto receive from your environment.

Yes.

Yes, it was an accident sorry.

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

Who you really are, is all the shit in the back of you're head. You are the consciousness experiencing an interpretation of reality due to how "your" brain happened to process the information it was able to receive from your environment.

That "real you" is another product of the body, through the process of natural selection. "You" die when the body dies. That's the end. Roll credits. Good night everybody.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

That "real you" is another product of the body, through the process of natural selection. "You" die when the body dies. That's the end. Roll credits. Good night everybody.

I disagree.

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

I disagree.

There's really not much to disagree about. Once your brain is dead, you are incapable of thought, feeling, or emotion. Why? Because you're dead. Sorry to say it.

quote:Originally posted by Sick_Boy:

All my pets (3 cats and 1 dog) have had or have very distinct personalities, and I love them and believe that they love/loved me. So yeah, I think animals have souls. I think you must include all animals in this, and I think even animals like, say, bacteria have souls. Just in a little bacteria way that I don't understand. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Are you saying souls and personality are the same thing?

quote:Originally posted by Gorcrow:

Of course animals don't have souls.

Humans are animals, by the way.

Souls don't exist.

My thoughts exactly.

quote:Originally posted by ADogg:

There's really not much to disagree about. Once your brain is dead, you are incapable of thought, feeling, or emotion. Why? Because you're dead. Sorry to say it.

At that level of consciousness, yes. All thought would cease. Suddenly a higher form of consciousness would be created....every hear of the stories of how people remember their entire lives in one instant after they die?

kinda funny how it happens to everyone.

You're belief is your opinion, based on your life experiences. Mine is mine. You think all you are is your ego. I think our ego is a defense mechanism that started up thousands of years ago, and has failed to disappear due to how society operates. And once you die, you realize that ego, who you 'are', is just one mask of many you will wear, and have worn. And eventually, you will have worn all the masks, and be ready to handle more dimensions of possible information.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

any being(organic) with a pineal gland has a soul.



He is saying this because it is Descartes' explanation as to how the soul or 'mind' interacted with the physical being. Of course, he had absolutely nothing to base this on, like much of his "reasoning", so it is quite meaningless.

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

[B] At that level of consciousness, yes. All thought would cease. Suddenly a higher form of consciousness would be created....every hear of the stories of how people remember their entire lives in one instant after they die?

kinda funny how it happens to everyone.



What? How exactly would one tell a story if they're dead? This is mainly a hypothesis. It happens to everyone... Name one. This statistic is unprovable.

Did God talk to you and tell you this? Cause if not, then your belief is based just as much upon ego as the other guy's was. Most people need something to hold on to, to believe in that is bigger than themselves. I believe you fall into this category. Religion is created and practiced by those who need to have belief in something than other than themelves, rather than belief in yourself.

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:



He is saying this because it is Descartes' explanation as to how the soul or 'mind' interacted with the physical being. Of course, he had absolutely nothing to base this on, like much of his "reasoning", so it is quite meaningless.

No, the pineal gland is an extremely unique gland, and it most likely produces DMT, along with the myriad of other psychoactive chemicals. Also, at 49 days, the fetus obtains both a gender and a pineal gland.

It's also the only part of the brain that doesn't have a double to it.

Oh, and Descartes was a fucking genius and you are not. shush, child. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 01-21-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Boss Tycoon:

What? How exactly would one tell a story if they're dead? This is mainly a hypothesis. It happens to everyone... Name one. This statistic is unprovable.

Did God talk to you and tell you this? Cause if not, then your belief is based just as much upon ego as the other guy's was. Most people need something to hold on to, to believe in that is bigger than themselves. I believe you fall into this category. Religion is created and practiced by those who need to have belief in something than other than themelves, rather than belief in yourself.

I believe it because when people die, and get shocked back to life, that is what they say.

I don't have a religion, because organized religion is stupid. Some people feel a need to find ways to insult others beliefs, feeding their own selfish ego and make themselves feel good. I believe you fit into this category.

I very much believe in myself. But my self, Obbe, is not eternal. I know that. I know all emotions and memories and experiences I have will end when I die. And I am fine with that. But I think the consciousness that is experiencing my life will not. I think the idea of that is silly. That life creates consciousness...consciousness merely inhabits life.

All consciousness is actually one, just as all matter is one. Separation is merely an illusion. And death is not an end. There are no ends, and there are no beginnings, only changes.

And rizzo knows what he's talking about with DMT and the pineal gland.

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

And rizzo knows what he's talking about with DMT and the pineal gland.

For sure. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

And rizzo knows what he's talking about with DMT and the pineal gland.

If he knows what he's talking about, why didn't he give me an explanation when I asked for one?

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

If he knows what he's talking about, why didn't he give me an explanation when I asked for one?

Maybe he doesn't want to summarize an entire book for someone on the net who wouldn't care if he did?

I know a couple things about DMT. I know its noticeable effects begin at 2 mg. Even though a common dose is 30 mg for a full 'trip', even very small amounts will have some effect on you. You can smoke a small amount of weed and get nicely stoned without getting really high. You can drink less and get a nice buzz going rather then get drunk.

I also know theres a ton of DMT released when you die, and I think I heard the same about when you are born.

I know:

quote:

Melatonin converts to -> Pinoline converts to -> 5-MeO-DMT converts to -> DMT

And that melatonin is produced when you sleep, and when you dream you think 4th dimensionally. Your consciousness is raised.

I also know that when you smoke pot, your melatonin production increases something like 2000%.

One last thing...dolphins have a more 'evolved' brain then us...although thats not a good term, its the easiest way to think of it. They also do not need sleep, part of their brain sleeps while other parts stay conscious of the physical world. They are always thinking at least partially 4th dimensionally.

Just some interesting things to think about.

[This message has been edited by Obbe (edited 01-21-2007).]

quote:I also know theres a ton of DMT released when you die, and I think I heard the same about when you are born.

quote:Several speculative and as yet untested hypotheses suggest that endogenous DMT, produced in the human brain, is involved in certain psychological and neurological states. As DMT is naturally produced in small amounts in the brains and other tissues of humans, and other mammals[1], some believe it plays a role in promoting the visual effects of natural dreaming, near-death experiences and other mystical states. A biochemical mechanism for this was proposed by the medical researcher JC Callaway, who suggested in 1988 that DMT might be connected with visual dream phenomena, where brain DMT levels are periodically elevated to induce visual dreaming and possibly other natural states of mind.[7]

Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience phenomenon. Only two of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases.

Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid and reptillian in nature, in technological environments[5] where the subjects were 'probed', 'tested' and sometimes even 'manipulated' by these 'beings' (see Abduction phenomenon).

In the 1950s, the endogenous production of psychoactive agents was considered to be a potential explanation for the hallucinatory symptoms of some psychiatric diseases as the transmethylation hypothesis.[8]. Unfortunately, this hypothesis does not account for the natural presence of endogenous DMT in otherwise normal humans, not to mention rats and other laboratory animals. The proposal by Dr. Callaway was the first to suggest a useful function for the endogenous production of DMT; i.e. to facilitate the visual phenomenon of normal dreaming.

Ethical concerns do not allow for the testing of this hypothesis in humans, as the biological samples must come from the living human brain. It is unknown if other animals actually do dream, as it is quite impossible to know this without their ability to tell us that they have had a dream, although REM sleep is highly correlated with dream sleep.

Writers on DMT include Terence McKenna and Jeremy Narby, though most scientists who study psychedelic drugs treat their writings with skepticism. McKenna writes of his experiences with DMT in which he encounters entities he describes as "Self-Transforming Machine Elves". McKenna believed DMT to be a tool that could be used to enhance communication and allow for communication with other-worldly entities. Other users report visitation from external intelligences attempting to impart information. These Machine Elf experiences are said to be shared by many DMT users. From a researcher's perspective, perhaps best known is Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule (ISBN 0-89281-927-8); Strassman also proposed that DMT is made in the pineal gland, although this is only speculation. It should be noted that DMT falls in the Tryptamine group, which also contains Serotonin, Melatonin (a hormone the Pineal Gland does indeed produce, and which contains an indole ring similar to DMT), and Psilocybin.

SOURCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine)

You cannot know that, when scientists don't even know that for sure. It's all currently speculation, because there is not enough substantial evidence.

Right now, you're only describing the effects of a drug in our brain. We have a form of opiate in our brain too, that doesn't mean we have a soul.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

No, the pineal gland is an extremely unique gland, and it most likely produces DMT, along with the myriad of other psychoactive chemicals. Also, at 49 days, the fetus obtains both a gender and a pineal gland.

There is currently only evidence that it produces melatonin, small amounts of DMT, and that it may influence the actions of drugs of abuse such as cocaine and antidepressants such as Prozac; and contribute to regulation of neuronal vulnerability.

All else, as I see you've made clear by "most likely", is currently speculation.

quote:It's also the only part of the brain that doesn't have a double to it.

My penis doesn't have a double. That's because it's special. It's my soul's driver's seat.

quote:Oh, and Descartes was a fucking genius and you are not. shush, child. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I agree that he was a genius, but his philosophy was flawed and was left behind when Kant emerged.

edit - I just thought I'd say that, imo, Descartes was awesome at phenomenological descriptions and that was his greatest contribution to philosophy. Hopefully the Cartesian dualism rift, that has aided in alienating man from himself, will heal soon.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 01-21-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:



You cannot know that, when scientists don't even know that for sure. It's all currently speculation, because there is not enough substantial evidence.

You're right. I can't really know anything at all. I just used wrong wording...saying you know anything is poppycock.

But I believe it, based on many different discoveries and points in articles like the one you presented.

quote:

Right now, you're only describing the effects of a drug in our brain. We have a form of opiate in our brain too, that doesn't mean we have a soul.

Yes, our body produces painkillers. But what are psychedelic drugs? We can see their effects, but we don't understand them. Ever think maybe their more? Maybe their like doorways...just dismissing it because its a 'drug' inst enough, because the ideas connected with drugs are probably wrong.

quote:Yes, our body produces painkillers. But what are psychedelic drugs? We can see their effects, but we don't understand them. Ever think maybe their more? Maybe their like doorways...just dismissing it because its a 'drug' inst enough, because the ideas connected with drugs are probably wrong.

This would actually make a cool discussion. I've heard the doorway stuff before and have always liked the idea, but never really bought into it.

My personal theory (which I currently have a lot of doubts about) is that you can only truly ever know the world as you experience it. Your mind is like a computer's processor. Your senses sense objects in the external world you're within and feed them into your processor, which turns the external world into something you can work with. The external world may be full of chaos, it may be very ordered, it may be exactly how you see it(which I figure is the most likely), but you cannot know for sure.

So, to get to the theory, what psychedelic drugs do, in actuality, is greatly alter how your processor works. It's like you're temporarily updating or downgrading (depending on opinion) your processor and therefore the data is being interpreted in a completely new way.

[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 01-21-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

This would actually make a cool discussion. I've heard the doorway stuff before and have always liked the idea, but never really bought into it.

My personal theory (which I currently have a lot of doubts about) is that you can only truly ever know the world as you experience it. Your mind is like a computer's processor. Your senses sense objects in the external world you're within and feed them into your processor, which turns the external world into something you can work with. The external world may be full of chaos, it may be very ordered, it may be exactly how you see it(which I figure is the most likely), but you cannot know for sure.

So, to get to the theory, what psychedelic drugs do, in actuality, is greatly alter how your processor works. It's like you're temporarily updating or downgrading (depending on opinion) you processor and therefore the data is being interpreted in a completely new way.

I think something very much the same, but that it might be more complicated then that.

They've shown how psilocybin actually alters your DNA while you trip. Maybe other psychedelics do the same?

Why thats important is that your emotions actually effect your DNA. A happy, joyful persons DNA is more "active" then a sad, depressed, or angry persons. By "active" I mean a happy person will produce a greater variety of enzymes, and in some cases greater amounts.

Thats why sick, but happy people who get windows and sunshine and such recover faster, and get over disease easier then others sharing rooms, those without family.

That might also explain why your mood effects your trip.

Anyways, I usually use an analogy like this. You're brain is just receiving code from the environment. Using lower order psychedelics like pot or low dose of shrooms, you are changing the way your brain interprets that code. Using something like high doses of LSD, or DMT is more like changing the code your brain is receiving in the first place.

We're talking shifts in perception, experiencing 4, 5, and even 6 other dimensions of information, things you cannot do here and now. We're talking ego-loss, which is exactly what I think happens after you die and remember your life instantly. If anything, that is doing something with your consciousness.

The whole thing that can experience these altered states, that can experience seemingly endless time in the length of 5 minutes, thats what a "soul" is. Its your eternal consciousness. Although the wording is all wrong, thats what I believe a soul is anyways...other definitions seem incomplete.

EDIT - was missing some stuff.



[This message has been edited by Obbe (edited 01-21-2007).]

quote:They've shown how psilocybin actually alters your DNA while you trip. Maybe other psychedelics co the same?

Who has shown and where’s the evidence? That sounds incredibly unlikely, because you’d become a seriously messed up invalid, if that happened.

quote:Using something like high doses of LSD, or DMT is more like changing the code your brain is receiving in the first place.

But you can’t possibly know that. All you can know is that your perception has been changed. Believing that a drug you ingested, that merely heavily alters your perception more so than lesser drugs, has changed reality itself requires a massive leap of faith.

quote:We're talking shifts in perception, experiencing 4, 5, and even 6 other dimensions of information, things you cannot do here and now.

A dimension is a parameter of measurement required to characterize the dimensions of an object - i.e. length, width, height, size and shape within conceptual dimensions time and space.

My experience with psychedelics had led me to the conclusion that they destroy dimensions, not create new ones. And this made me think that possibly what is going on is that your processor has been downgraded, causing your projections onto the external world of time and space to alter massively or totally be destroyed (although the latter I personally don't think is likely and if they are destroyed, that's not to say you're experiencing reality itself how it would be separate from how you're experiencing it, so you still cannot possibly know). Of course, since you're used to reality how it was, this would cause confusion, causing you to interpret things "wrongly".

quote:The whole thing that can experience these altered states, that can experiencing seemingly endless time in the length of 5 minutes, thats what a "soul" is. Its your eternal consciousness. Although the wording is all wrong, thats what I believe a soul is anyways...other definitions seem incomplete.

So you believe that at death, a massive dose of DMT causes you to experience eternity within a few seconds? I actually had a theory similar to that once. But I didn’t personally call it a soul or an afterlife, merely the illusion of an afterlife.





[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 01-21-2007).]

souls are not entitous. they are merely there. in the sense that we have physics and quantum physics where things can coexist with existence... so to speak, souls are infinite and without bounds, that is how we attain all our psyche-phenomenon. fuCk

No, chinamen do not have seouls.

u have to remember...animals are like gingers. gingers=souless and animal=ginger so by the transitive(?) property animal=souless

Hare_Geist

I recall reading the DNA thing in an article. I tired looking for you, but found nothing, sorry. Try asking BLTC.

I don't think anything can change reality, its changing what you experience....I thought we agreed on that. I already told you I can't know anything.

I do not think psychedelics 'downgrade' dimensions, simply because if it did things wouldn't get more complex. You wouldn't experience what I call the pancaking effect, or splitting, or eternal time, all which I have experienced. This is why i think some drugs simply alter the information being received, some allow that and more information to be received, and some just completely change the information being received. Not that any of that can be known.

And i think you misinterpreted what i meant by soul. Your soul is the eternal consciousness that is able to experience all these altered, and out-of-body states of mind. The actual experience of infinite time or space is the only real truth to the universe, while everything else is an illusion.

Why are you trying to argue with me about my beliefs? Or are you just trying to point out that theres no way for me to know this?

Because I already know that. I just choose to believe this because it make far more sense then any other explanation i have heard of.

The difference between Obbe and Hare_Geists beliefs from what I seem to grasp, is Obbe seems to be talking from experiance, while Hare_Geist is stating things hes read via intraweb?

All in all, there is no way to prove this, we could argue about this forever, but I guess well be subject to the truth soon enough.

quote:Originally posted by Dragon Slayer:

All in all, there is no way to prove this, we could argue about this forever

QFT

And I'm not sure, but I thought the difference was more that I think consciousness merely inhabits life and is eternal in time and infinite (or the next best word) in dimensions, and that this consciousness is what we refer to when talking about a 'soul'.

While Hare, I believe, thinks that consciousness is a result of life, and therefore dies when the life it inhabits does.

Is that right?

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

Your thoughts and behavior are generally influenced by your frontal lobe, and your 'ego'. You are not your ego.

I am not really Obbe, Obbe the result of someone having all the life experiences i have had. The result of the nearly random code by DNA became when this body was created. This body is not mine, its just something I'm borrowing until I die.

Who you really are, is all the shit in the back of you're head. You are the consciousness experiencing an interpretation of reality due to how "your" brain happened to process the information it was ableto receive from your environment.

yah dude, actually you're right: DNA is nearly random. [/sarcasm]

quote:Originally posted by youth in asia:

yah dude, actually you're right: DNA is nearly random. [/sarcasm]

I don't remember the number, but theres a ton of possibilities for who 2 people could make. Not including mutations, chromosome crossing and the health of the mother.

Its not completely by chance that you became the person you are, but theres a whole lot of other ways you could have popped outta the oven.

Maybe I made some kinda grammatical error or something...I don't know, but it makes sense to me.

quote:Originally posted by Obbe: Hare_Geist

I recall reading the DNA thing in an article. I tired looking for you, but found nothing, sorry. Try asking BLTC.

Well, if it's in 'some article', then it must be true. :P

quote:I don't think anything can change reality, its changing what you experience....I thought we agreed on that. I already told you I can't know anything.

Why did you say Using something like high doses of LSD, or DMT is more like changing the code your brain is receiving in the first place. then? That implies that the code - i.e. reality - that you are receiving is being changed, not your perception of the code.

quote:I do not think psychedelics 'downgrade' dimensions, simply because if it did things wouldn't get more complex. You wouldn't experience what I call the pancaking effect, or splitting, or eternal time, all which I have experienced. This is why i think some drugs simply alter the information being received, some allow that and more information to be received, and some just completely change the information being received. Not that any of that can be known.

I shall restate it again: But you can’t possibly know that. All you can know is that your perception has been changed. Believing that a drug you ingested, that merely heavily alters your perception more so than lesser drugs, has changed reality itself requires a massive leap of faith.

To jump to the conclusion that it is the code, it is reality itself, that is altering because of something you ingested that effects your mind only, your processor, is in fact ludicrous.

quote:Why are you trying to argue with me about my beliefs? Or are you just trying to point out that theres no way for me to know this?

Well beliefs are neat like that. If it makes you happy, then I'll leave you alone.

quote:Originally posted by Dragon Slayer:

The difference between Obbe and Hare_Geists beliefs from what I seem to grasp, is Obbe seems to be talking from experiance, while Hare_Geist is stating things hes read via intraweb?

Nice logical fallacy.

quote:All in all, there is no way to prove this, we could argue about this forever, but I guess well be subject to the truth soon enough.

Actually, that was exactly my argument. There is no way to prove OBBE's claims about the soul and drugs altering reality instead of the perception of reality, and that in fact his belief they alter reality itself is simply misguided.

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

And I'm not sure, but I thought the difference was more that I think consciousness merely inhabits life and is eternal in time and infinite (or the next best word) in dimensions, and that this consciousness is what we refer to when talking about a 'soul'.

While Hare, I believe, thinks that consciousness is a result of life, and therefore dies when the life it inhabits does.

Yes, that's a difference between us, but that's not what I was arguing about. My argument is about your claim that psychedelics alter reality itself and that the Pineal Gland is the seat of the soul.

You can have your belief in the soul, if you want, but personally I merely think that it's a Cartesian rift, alienating man from himself.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 01-22-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Why did you say Using something like high doses of LSD, or DMT is more like changing the code your brain is receiving in the first place. then? That implies that the code - i.e. reality - that you are receiving is being changed, not your perception of the code

No, I don't think your exterior reality, what everyone else sitting around the room is experiencing, changes. But who's to say your experiencing a full view of reality when already sober?

I'll try to say it simpler this time. It is my belief (and I'm not claiming I know anything, nor did I) that taking something that only slightly alters your perception, slightly alters the way your brain interprets information from the exterior.

Taking something like DMT, Salvia, or high doses of LSD can not only do that, but also allow your brain to start receiving information it couldn't receive before. Its "new" code, to you, not changing reality.

Just because you can't see black matter dost mean it dost exist. We just have no senses for it. 92% of the universes is undetectable by our silly senses.



quote:To jump to the conclusion that it is the code, it is reality itself, that is altering because of something you ingested that effects your mind only, your processor, is in fact ludicrous.

You are the one jumping to the conclusion pal. I don't think taking a couple drugs is changing the reality around me. But I do think it changes the way i interpret information, and certain drugs allow you to receive more information then before.

I said:

quote:Using something like high doses of LSD, or DMT is more like changing the code your brain is receiving in the first place.

I did not mean it is changing reality. I meant it changes the amount, the level of dimensions, from what the usual level of interpretation is.

quote:

Actually, that was exactly my argument. There is no way to prove OBBE's claims about the soul and drugs altering reality instead of the perception of reality, and that in fact his belief they alter reality itself is simply misguided.

The names Obbe. And the fact is, you have the wrong impression of my belief about this.

I don't think drugs alter reality!!

quote:

Yes, that's a difference between us, but that's not what I was arguing about. My argument is about your claim that psychedelics alter reality itself and that the Pineal Gland is the seat of the soul.

No, I don't think they alter reality itself, I think they allow us to experiance alternate and more complex versions of reality. Things that are already going on, you just cannot see or describe because its too complex.

And I don't know much about the pineal gland, other then it might be connected with the third eye, and it produces DMT. DMT, is what i think keeps us 'connected'.

Anyways, I hope that one tiny error (in either your interpretation of what i wrote, or my bad job at writing it which confused you) has been fixed and you understand what I mean. I'll post more after work if you still don't get it, or find the need to let me know my theory might not be right.

I know it might not be right. I don't think of it as some grand explanation of the universe. But, it makes more sense then most explanations I have heard, so I'll stick with it till it stops making sense.

quote:No, I don't think your exterior reality, what everyone else sitting around the room is experiencing, changes. But who's to say your experiencing a full view of reality when already sober?

In my older posts I stated that you cannot possibly know if you have a full view of reality. All you can know for certain is the world as you experience it, as it is experienced by you, not as it is in itself.

quote:Taking something like DMT, Salvia, or high doses of LSD can not only do that, but also allow your brain to start receiving information it couldn't receive before. Its "new" code, to you, not changing reality.

I never disagreed with you there. Although I think that it is possible, I think that there will be a lot of confusion for your mind because it’s been so drastically altered, so it would be interpreting things ‘wrongly’ or causing you to experience things that aren’t really there - i.e. an hallucination. Of course, we can’t know for certain, but certainty has never been a requisite for knowledge; not even in science.

quote:I did not mean it is changing reality. I meant it changes the amount, the level of dimensions, from what the usual level of interpretation is.

I believe I have misread your statement, and if so, I apologize.

If I’m not mistaken, please correct me if I’m wrong, your actual intent was to say that psychedelics causes your senses to take in more of the external world, which, if that was your original meaning, is similar to what Huxley said in “Doors of Perception”, which goes something like this: your mind has a filter that filters the external world into a reality you can work with, but when you take psychedelics, that filter is widened and more of the external world is taken in, this causes a confusion and a state much like that of schizophrenia.

Every sentient animal (humans) has a soul.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

In my older posts I stated that you cannot possibly know if you have a full view of reality. All you can know for certain is the world as you experience it, as it is experienced by you, not as it is in itself.

yes! I like to use this analogy when trying to explain that:

2 young children are both playing with a ball. To child A the ball looks like what we call the color red. To child B, it looks yellow. An older person tells them both the ball is blue.

So, they grow up each calling it blue, but the colors they actually see are both different. How do we know the worlds not actually like this? Or like this on a much greater scale? One persons perception of reality could be vastly different then another's, but yet they would still have the ability to share and exchange information.

quote:

I never disagreed with you there. Although I think that it is possible, I think that there will be a lot of confusion for your mind because it’s been so drastically altered, so it would be interpreting things ‘wrongly’ or causing you to experience things that aren’t really there - i.e. an hallucination. Of course, we can’t know for certain, but certainty has never been a requisite for knowledge; not even in science.

Yes, there can be lots of confusion, and I believe that 2 people having the same experience on the same drug could interpret the experience differently...but in the same way 2 people might interpret the meaning of a work of art differently.

I guess you can say the Ego, or personality could get confused. 2 ego's could interpret the information differently.

(then again, many of the extreme, OOBE causing drugs also go hand-in-hand with ego loss. Without an ego, you have no prior experience to confuse your interpretation of events. You experience whats happening for what it is, although having no ego is like just being born. It can be very confusing that way.)

But besides that, I do not think the mind would interpret any of the information 'wrongly'...whats happening is whats happening. Either their perception of the information has been altered, or they are receiving 'new' information which they weren't capable of before, or both.

quote:

...your mind has a filter that filters the external world into a reality you can work with, but when you take psychedelics, that filter is widened and more of the external world is taken in, this causes a confusion and a state much like that of schizophrenia.



That sounds good, but i think it can be a little more complicated. And I don't know too much about schizophrenia.

But I was thinking about it today, and I think this is the easiest way to explain it:

Your brain is like a radio. Information is flying all around it, and it is capable of picking out some of the information, translate it, and the spew out the information for the consciousness (and sometimes ego) to experience.

When you take a lower-order psychedelic, like lets say you smoke a joint, its like the brain is translating the information slightly differently. If the brain was a radio, it would be like the song's the same, but someone at the radio stations fucking with the balance and the treble and bass.

But higher-order psychedelics can be like that, and like changing radio stations. Or even listening to 2 stations at once.

Tripping on salvia could be explained like you were just listening to the classic rock station, but suddenly you're listening to heavy metal and Chinese talk shows at the same time. And while thats going on, the treble and bass keep changing.

Thats the easiest way to describe experiencing more dimensions of reality. Because you can't explain it down here, in the low 3rd dimensional consciousness. We aren't capable of understanding it here.

And the thing that experiences all these higher states of reality, its not me, its not Obbe. Cause ego-loss prevents that. Whats experiencing it is the consciousness...infinite and eternal. And thats what the religious leaders of old meant when they wrote about our souls...the meaning has just been lost with time.

And all of the above is just what I think about it anyway. Theres no way any of it can be proven. But it makes a lot of sense to me.

Anyways....its not called getting 'high' for no reason http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

And i just had to delete this cause i posted it under my girl's totse name. Whoops http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

bumpity

off to work

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

bumpity

off to work

I read your post, but I have nothing more to say. I don't entirely agree with your radio analogy, but that's obviously because we have different ideas of what a dimension is. That's about it; not really worthy of a post.

It's my understanding that "Soul" resides in everything. Soul is the stuff of God. The main difference between animals and us is that we are concious of ourselves and so can manipulate our path through life, whereas they are almost like slaves to the natural flow of energy...... or sommat.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

I read your post, but I have nothing more to say. I don't entirely agree with your radio analogy, but that's obviously because we have different ideas of what a dimension is. That's about it; not really worthy of a post.

Cool, i just wanted your opinion. And yeah, I guess we do have different ideas of a dimension...depending on if you are talking about dimensions of reality, or dimensional consciousness.

i think they do. Like dogs and cats, they have personalities and are unique in their own ways. I think they have souls just like us, and when they die, their souls will go on just the same as ours.