So I have this theory, okay, that I stole from Kant, in which he says that all you can really know is existence as you experience it. You cannot entirely know the objective world; your experience of the world might be exactly like the objective world, but I doubt it entirely (look at all the people who “know” there is a God, when objectively, that’s not very likely). Think of your brain as a processor and your senses are fed in information from the outside world and then your brain makes sense of it to make a world that it is possible for you to live in.

So, objectively the world is basically random, superfluous, meaningless chaos and any choice you make is equal to every single other choice you make and all beings have no intrinsic, necessary purpose (air is necessary for us to live, so without air, we wouldn’t be here, but if there were no air, there’d be no us, so it wouldn’t be necessary for there to be air because there would be no us for it to be necessary for; the world could be totally different and we would not know it).

But then, okay, how do I know the objective world is like this? It could be filled with meaning and purpose. Well, I can’t know for sure. I only experience the world through myself, so it would be a subjective experience of the objective. The closest we can get is the use of phenomenology to describe all of our personal experiences and then see which ones are regular to all of us, and, of course, with the clues of phenomenology and science, the world is beginning to look rather bleak.

Now, as you can see from the above three paragraphs, this whole subjective-objective shtick is slowly driving me crazy as I try and figure it out and you can probably see a lot of confusion in them.

Now let’s talk about the subjective. In the subjective, everything possibly has meaning because by experiencing it, you instil it with the meaning it has.

Now for the question: is it OK in the subjective to believe whatever the hell you want as long as it gives you some hope and purpose for going on? Is it ok, then, for people to believe in God? And I’ve been thinking about this for a long time, should I believe in a God? I mean, would it help me achieve anything, overcome anything? I see people who do believe and the way they write about their belief, to be honest, disturbs me and I know that in the back of my head I will always have this inkling that the objective world is godless and meaningless and that my purpose is insignificant. I can’t believe in a God now because I’ll always have that doubt, but is that a good thing? God seems like a pretty screwed up concept, but, as you can see now, I am rambling…

theres no more reason to believe in the God then the flying spagetti monster.

This video might help you out. Dawkins explains why we are here.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=13NPZ5Nv_fc

I'd be really worried if the only motivation I had to keep me living was some lie, some imaginary god.

Then I would know my life is really worthless.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=13NPZ5Nv_fc

That video actually moved me to tears. O.o

quote:I'd be really worried if the only motivation I had to keep me living was some lie, some imaginary god.

Yes, but aren't all meanings, including God, man made? Does it matter if it is God made? I find it really difficult, because I see that we are the providers of life's meaning, yet without us life has no meaning and the meaning we provide is, like us, temporal. This idea of the world as a void when we're not here is really bothering me.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

That video actually moved me to tears. O.o

really? in what way? i found it inspiring. It shows how far the human race has come. and how proud we should all be to be part of this wonder of nature that we are.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

really? in what way? i found it inspiring. It shows how far the human race has come. and how proud we should all be to be part of this wonder of nature that we are.

It moved me to tears in two ways.

The first was the recognition at how far the human race has come and how marvelous it is, how we have the ability to give the world, in a manner of speaking, what it doesn't have: meaning.

The second was that this is not going to last forever. Each individual is temporal and if his meaningful creations don't die with him, they'll die with whoever is carrying it. The world will one day be void of meaning again and that currently, without us experiencing it, it is void of meaning. I guess the infinite meaningless and temporariness of it all upset me.

You sound like your lacking direction and meaning in your life. And you feel like you have to have it. Were you born into a religion, then later realised its nonesense by any chance?



You'll never find an ultimate meaning in life. Study science, make the meaning in your life too find out how everything works, who knows you might stumble on that ultimate meaning. Just have fun, enjoy your life.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

You sound like your lacking direction and meaning in your life. And you feel like you have to have it. Were you born into a religion, then later realised its nonesense by any chance?

Pretty much.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Yes, but aren't all meanings, including God, man made? Does it matter if it is God made? I find it really difficult, because I see that we are the providers of life's meaning, yet without us life has no meaning and the meaning we provide is, like us, temporal. This idea of the world as a void when we're not here is really bothering me.

So you'd rather make some silly shit up to keep you going every day instead of realizing the truth, that there is no god?

There is no "should" about it; God loves us all equally regardless of what we say or do or believe.

In my experience, however, being close to God--that is not the paranoid deity of the Bible, but God as expressed in the intelligent and loving unified field that permeates and constitutes the universe--has brought me great peace, joy, serenity, and freedom from fear, hate, and envy.

Do what you gives you comfort and meaning to your life. This is truly one of those questions you can answer for yourself. If believing God exists gives the feel-goods like everything is right, then you should believe. But if believing in a lie makes you feel worthless or something then don't and take comfort in something outside of faith. Do what suits and if someone calls you worthless for your beliefs then they are the hypocrite.

I for don't believe in God because I have never felt the divine presence at my baptismal all I could think was What if he is not real. I think at that point would have given the strength and resolution to feel what I am doing is the absolute good. So therefore I do not believe.

Hope you find comfort in your beliefs and live the way you want.

Peace

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

The world will one day be void of meaning again and that currently, without us experiencing it, it is void of meaning.

Sure is. On a long enough timeline, not even atoms will remain in the universe. Nothing that ever happened will mean anything then.

quote:Originally posted by Gorcrow:

So you'd rather make some silly shit up to keep you going every day instead of realizing the truth, that there is no god?



Instead of some other silly shit?

State one idea that isn't some silly shit to keep you going each day, and I'll show you the meaning of life.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:



Instead of some other silly shit?

State one idea that isn't some silly shit to keep you going each day, and I'll show you the meaning of life.



http://www.iheu.org/

I think some of you are missing his point. It's not about whether or not god actually exists or even if it logical to believe so. Rather, does believing in the existence of such a being create positive utility in our own lives? If so, then maybe it is worth creating faith within ourselves to nourish positive feelings. Some of us are too deep in the rabbit hole to ever turn back, as we would always have a feeling of falsehood about our "faith," but others can still turn back and embrace the warm feeling that comes along with believing some all great being is looking over them and will one day take them to a better place.

I think this thread hits on an important discussion many people will disagree over: is it better to be naive and happy or knowledgable but unhappy? Not that one state of being creates happiness or unhappiness, but it is simply a rhetorical thought to mull over.

[This message has been edited by KikoSanchez (edited 01-22-2007).]

^^^ If somebody is mentally unstable from having thoughts that goes against his faith. Then that shows how damaging imposing religion on a child can be. I cant give advice on what to do, because i myself could not just pretend i believe in an imaginary being. No more then i can now make myself believe in santa again

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

I cant give advice on what to do, because i myself could not just pretend i believe in an imaginary being. No more then i can now make myself believe in santa again

I'm exactly the same way, so basically I'm screwed. And the worst thing is that I can't get the thought out of my head that it was my mother imposing Christianity on me, as if God was the only thing that gave meaning to life, that has led me to this crisis and now every time I try and find a meaning in my life, I feel I'm just doing shit to keep busy to keep my mind off of death (although fear of death isn't bad in itself because it shows I still value my life, it can get depressing having this hanging over my head).

I do tend to slip back into a normal life, but it's still there in the back of my head and I know it, and it always comes back.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

http://www.iheu.org/



But even then, the actions of the institute ar meaningless, as all the people it helps will someday die. It only exists to comfort the living, and prolong something that's going to end anyway.

quote:Originally posted by PirateJoe:



But even then, the actions of the institute ar meaningless, as all the people it helps will someday die. It only exists to comfort the living, and prolong something that's going to end anyway.

The only people who fear death are people who have been brainwashed into a religion from a young age. Religion puts its emphasis on death, and what comes after. Without religion you grow up with emphasis on your life, not your death. I dont fear death, and yet I dont wanna die. I want to extend this life as long as possible and have a blast doing it

The fact that you said this life is meaningless, shows how wrong religion is.

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-22-2007).]

If someone took the time to scan every atom in the universe with every possible detection tool in a search for 'otherworldly matter' and found nothing i may be inclined to agree that there is no such thing as god.

So someone explain Dark matter, or Aether - last i heard we found giant clumps of particles out in space, almost like planets really...

lol, i need to stay away from physics.

quote:Originally posted by One_way_mirror:

If someone took the time to scan every atom in the universe with every possible detection tool in a search for 'otherworldly matter' and found nothing i may be inclined to agree that there is no such thing as god.

So someone explain Dark matter, or Aether - last i heard we found giant clumps of particles out in space, almost like planets really...

lol, i need to stay away from physics.

I'm waiting for any evidence whatsover of a god, or afterlife, or anything. If we can discover how everything works in our "realm" or whatever you wanna call it, then theres no reason why we cant discover something about an afterlife or god. If we do find out something about it, I'll be pissed of if our lives are just a game for some being. And will try and destroy it, it being god. I guess i'd be an evil AI robot

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-22-2007).]