In the 13,14th century islam was leading the way in science and education. Something during there history happend and now education is unheard of. Religion has taken over there way of life.

If the traditionalists, christians whatever you wanna call them get there way the same will happen to north america. It started with them redifining the defenition of science. Trying to get intellegent design to be taught in schools. Now there are still places that have managed to get evolution knocked out of schools. In the process drasticly changing the way kids will look at science.

Science and education has prevailed in some major battles in the states. Where it went all the way up to a federal judge, and a trial with a jurry and everything. Well its obvious who won. The proof of evolution is immense, where as the proof for intelligent design is none.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

In the 13,14th century islam was leading the way in science and education. Something during there history happend and now education is unheard of. Religion has taken over there way of life.

If the traditionalists, christians whatever you wanna call them get there way the same will happen to north america. It started with them redifining the defenition of science. Trying to get intellegent design to be taught in schools. Now there are still places that have managed to get evolution knocked out of schools. In the process drasticly changing the way kids will look at science.

Science and education has prevailed in some major battles in the states. Where it went all the way up to a federal judge, and a trial with a jurry and everything. Well its obvious who won. The proof of evolution is immense, where as the proof for intelligent design is none.



This may surpris you but one of the founding fathers said you cant have a good government without God the politicians of the past understood this and you actually had to have a theological degree before you were able to become a lawyer.

The founding fathers understood the importance of God and country working together but through the years people have become more liberal and godless which is why you arrive at today where people like you want God left out without understanding what the founding fathers really wanted.

^^^have you even read your first ammendment.

I'm canadian and i even know what It ses. abraham lincoln was an atheist himself.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

This may surpris you but one of the founding fathers said you cant have a good government without God the politicians of the past understood this and you actually had to have a theological degree before you were able to become a lawyer.

The founding fathers understood the importance of God and country working together but through the years people have become more liberal and godless which is why you arrive at today where people like you want God left out without understanding what the founding fathers really wanted.

You're an idiot.

Yes I have read it but it never say seperation of church and state.

As for the other guy it is so easy to call me an idiot when you dont give a reason what i said was factually accurate.

[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 01-20-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

^^^have you even read your first ammendment.

I'm canadian and i even know what It ses. abraham lincoln was an atheist himself.

Where did you hear Lincoln was atheist?

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

This may surpris you but one of the founding fathers said you cant have a good government without God the politicians of the past understood this and you actually had to have a theological degree before you were able to become a lawyer.

The founding fathers understood the importance of God and country working together but through the years people have become more liberal and godless which is why you arrive at today where people like you want God left out without understanding what the founding fathers really wanted.

That has nothing to do with fundamentalism and undereducation that you see the Christian right preach today (against evolution and stem cell research). Back then, the top colleges (Harvard, William & Mary, etc) were founded as theological schools. It required 10x more education to be a minister than to be a doctor or a lawyer. Being a minister was a top job back then which is why they would say something like that. The smartest people studied theology.

Yes, keep religion (at least Christianity, Islam and Judaism) out of Government. Look at what it does.

quote:Originally posted by MidnightRambler:

Where did you hear Lincoln was atheist?

The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession.

-- Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis in "Lincoln the Freethinker" http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/lincoln.htm

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Yes I have read it but it never say seperation of church and state.

As for the other guy it is so easy to call me an idiot when you dont give a reason what i said was factually accurate.



it doesnt say that clearly. But it gives freedom of religion, ANd removes any power of the government to do anything regarding religion. Therefor if the christian church (most popular in NA) was given power, do you actually think they would teach other religions in there schools. Would they embrase science if it went against there teachings.

Are you somebody who supports intelligent design? if so your an idiot

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-20-2007).]

http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=973

quote:Originally posted by your enemy:

h ttp://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=973 (http: //www.news .faithfree dom.org/in dex.php?na me=News&fi le=article &sid=973)

perfect example. Religion that enforces power is nothing but problams

fyi, many of the founding fathers (esp. James Madison) were incredibly anti-god.

The fairly recent rise of Christian Fundamentalism in this country poses a great threat to the advancement of our Nation.

You have to remember that islam is ~600 years younger than christianity.

Look at what the church was doing circa 1400. It takes a long time for things like that to work themselves out. Our only hope is to expedite that process.

Moving over to My God.



-=Sephiroth=-

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

This may surpris you but one of the founding fathers said you cant have a good government without God the politicians of the past understood this and you actually had to have a theological degree before you were able to become a lawyer.

The founding fathers understood the importance of God and country working together but through the years people have become more liberal and godless which is why you arrive at today where people like you want God left out without understanding what the founding fathers really wanted.

yeah one of them said that, typical christian argument, heres a tibit for ya, one of them benjamin franklin was a deist, and mr thomas jefferson rewrote the bible to his own liking. last time i checked 2>1 so yeah go suck an egg

If you want a government run by religion, move to fucking Iran.

If only us atheists could figure out a way to get the muslims and the Christians to wipe eachother out. Maybe we could call them terrorists and us freedom fighters, and then do the opposite in there country. Why does that sound so familiar?

The founding fathers of the U.S. were Deists if anything; they often expressed disdain for Christianity even though they still believed in a god. They themselves knew enough to place a wall of seperation between church and state, however all these years later that wall is being torn down by Christian disinformation.

I'm not an American, but the ideals upon which that nation was founded are noble and just; it pains me to see that so many Americans are totally underserving of citizenship in that nation through their own ignorance.

I agree with keeping church and state seperate. Unfortunately most countries missions are based on religious values. For instance, the USA is based on Christian values. Therefore Christians technically have the argument that America is Christian founded and thereby they have the right to teach Christian values in the schools.

I don't agree with it, but there's nothing anyone can do about it. Those are the facts.

Cheers,

Lost

Hmmm, religion in government and education. Reminds me of something.

Dark Ages, anyone?

quote:Originally posted by socratic:

Hmmm, religion in government and education. Reminds me of something.

Dark Ages, anyone?

The Dark Ages were when it was illegal to be a Christian.

And im not even going to comment on the people who say the founding fathers wanted God out of country because that is complete bs and they dont know their history(which may explain why it was a forigner who said it)

[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 01-24-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

The Dark Ages were when it was illegal to be a Christian.

And im not even going to comment on the people who say the founding fathers wanted God out of country because that is complete bs and they dont know their history(which may explain why it was a forigner who said it)



nobody said to remove any god.

Show me where and how it shows that the founding fathers of the USA wanted a particular god to rule the country, or words interpred as words of god.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

nobody said to remove any god.

Show me where and how it shows that the founding fathers of the USA wanted a particular god to rule the country, or words interpred as words of god.

I never said anything like what you are implying.All I implyed was that they were God fearing ppl who believed God and country cannot be seperated.

[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 01-24-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

I never said anything like what you are implying.All I implyed was that they were God fearing ppl who believed God and country cannot be seperated.



That made no fucking sense. How do you know they were god fearing people? because alot of them didnt believe in the bible? Where are you getting your bases that they said God and country cannot be seperated?

I dont think you actually understand what it means to keep Church and State seperate.

I thought everyone knew they were God fearing people but your stupidity has shown me otherwise.

If you would actually read all the founding documents and the founding fathers speeches you would know that they believed in God

I;ve read alot of the orignal documents and never got the impression they feared god.

Plus fear in a being that we have no connection with is hardly a reason to base a country on. You talk to god, he doesnt talk to you. Therefor useing a supreme supernatural being as a way to run a country is just an excuse to impose the particuler person in powers views with greater control and impression on the general public

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

I;ve read alot of the orignal documents and never got the impression they feared god.



Well then ive lost hope and you and am also done responding to your post because if you cant see something that obvious then i really dont care what you say.

im australian so cut me some slack here but doesn't one of the ammendments say the US will never be a religious nation?

i also remember George W. Bush Junior saying that america will always be a christian nation.

am i wrong or wtf?

Pseud0nym

There constitution clearly shows that the US was founded as a secular nation, with freedom to follow any religion you wish. Its only the religious far right wing activists that say otherwise.

Hers some information on the history of it all. http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_brochure_christianna tion

Christianity activists tried hard to get there religion recognized in the constitution and decleration of indepedence etc. But it never worked. They kept religion out of it, leaving it open for every citizen to exercise there right to choose what they want. And to not give special treatment to christianity.

Right wing religious will claim this is all bullshit, twist the words and meanings of things written. WIch they do so well with there holy bilble aswell.

With Canada the same freedom was made law when the Charter of Rights was written in 1982, when we officially got independence from Britain.



[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-24-2007).]

quote:

socratic: Hmmm, religion in government and education. Reminds me of something.

Dark Ages, anyone?

SAMMY249: The Dark Ages were when it was illegal to be a Christian.



Now by 'Dark Ages', what time period are YOU thinking of SAMMY?



[This message has been edited by flatplat (edited 01-24-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

Pseud0nym

There constitution clearly shows that the US was founded as a secular nation, with freedom to follow any religion you wish. Its only the religious far right wing activists that say otherwise.

Hers some information on the history of it all. http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_brochure_christianna tion (http: //www.au.o rg/site/Pa geServer?p agename=re sources_br ochure_chr istiannati on)

Christianity activists tried hard to get there religion recognized in the constitution and decleration of indepedence etc. But it never worked. They kept religion out of it, leaving it open for every citizen to exercise there right to choose what they want. And to not give special treatment to christianity.

Right wing religious will claim this is all bullshit, twist the words and meanings of things written. WIch they do so well with there holy bilble aswell.

With Canada the same freedom was made law when the Charter of Rights was written in 1982, when we officially got independence from Britain.



Now because of what i said in the previous post i will not respond to you because you are just following bs all i will say is this website is very one sided and you dont need to be listening to them.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Now because of what i said in the previous post i will not respond to you because you are just following bs all i will say is this website is very one sided and you dont need to be listening to them.

Religious right propoganda at work. I find it hilarious yet scary that people would support these evengelical, far right christians to run the government. For one it would it would ruin science. In effect ruin the nation. FUcken crazy people

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-24-2007).]

quote:"The Dark Ages were when it was illegal to be a Christian."

You're woefully misinformed. The Dark Ages were a dismal time of violence and stagnation, during which most of Europe was Christian in one form or another. I learned this in grade school; what the fuck have you been taught?

quote:"And im not even going to comment on the people who say the founding fathers wanted God out of country because that is complete bs and they dont know their history(which may explain why it was a forigner who said it)"

The fact that a forgeiner knows more about your country than you do shows how truely pathetic you are; I suggest you look up the Treaty of Tripoli to see how Christian your country is supposed to be. Use your brain, you dumbfuck!

Yes, I was wrong about the Dark Ages it was YEARS ago that I learned about a time like I described but it wasnt the dark ages I sincerely appologis.

And flatery will get you nowhere.

[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 01-24-2007).]

Ya you were thinking of the first few centuries after the whole jesus thing. It was illegal to be Christian in the roman empire. Where the church was dedicated to the traditional roman gods. Wich in the the 3rd century christianity took power of the roman empire, and continued to do what was being done to them to others for a long long time. Guess the old, do to others that you want done to yourself, thing didnt clew into them back then.

Two perfect examples why church should be seperate from government. Some people just refuse to learn from history

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-25-2007).]

http://vid eo.yahoo.c om/video/p lay?p=bull shit+penn& toggle=1&c op=mss&ei= UTF-8&vc=& fp_ip=CA&b=0&oid=853 8a66f1865e 592&rurl=w ww.chuckvi lla.org&vd one=http%3 A%2F%2Fvid eo.yahoo.c om%2Fsearch%2Fvideo% 3Fp%3Dbull shit%2Bpen n%26toggle %3D1%26cop %3Dmss%26e i%3DUTF-8% 26vc%3D%26 fp_ip%3DCA

this will settle the argument http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Why does almost everybody on this site think that they can prove the other religians/athiests wrong? You don't fucking get it, no-one is going to change thier minds because of some "evidence" you claim to have so stop trying.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

In the 13,14th century islam was leading the way in science and education. Something during there history happend and now education is unheard of. Religion has taken over there way of life.

If the traditionalists, christians whatever you wanna call them get there way the same will happen to north america. It started with them redifining the defenition of science. Trying to get intellegent design to be taught in schools. Now there are still places that have managed to get evolution knocked out of schools. In the process drasticly changing the way kids will look at science.

Science and education has prevailed in some major battles in the states. Where it went all the way up to a federal judge, and a trial with a jurry and everything. Well its obvious who won. The proof of evolution is immense, where as the proof for intelligent design is none.

It actually wasn't illegal to be christian in Rome, thats a very common misconception. Rome had very secular government most senators and emperors didn't care what god you prayed to. However, it was considered treason to say that somebody besides the emperor was king, lord, etc, and when the christians would refuse to admit that (emperor x) was king, they'd be executed.

It was required to have a theology degree when there was ecclesiastical law (witch burning law, etc.), but this branch of law thankfully doesn't exist anymore. The founding fathers knew the danger of religion as an opiate, pacifier and as a tool of the oppressor. How many peasants threw away an opportunity to revolt in the dark ages because they thought they'd go to hell if they did?

Religion in schools does just that. If you infuse a concept like god/gods/godesses with the state, you wed in the mind of the conditioned the two concepts. Big Brother, anyone? He's always right and he's always watching, and everything is part of his plan. Sound familiar?

I used to live in a country with state-church. It wasn't a bad thing really. It was Norway FYI. The town's priest would sometimes visit the school, and sometimes the school would visit the church. In class we learned equally about all religions. You didn't have to attend religous class (known as KRL) if you had consent from your parents. In Christmas and easter the elementary school would hold plays in the church, of course not manditory. It was a good and fun learning experience. Also the royal family had to be religous, as in they had to be baptised, confirmed and married in the church. (how horrible)

It really helped preserve white culture, and I consider it a good thing, even though I'm athiest. I don't get why most athiests hate the concept of god.

EDIT: Where the fuck do people get the idea that state church is harmful to the population of a country? If ignorance is bliss, religion is the ultimate high. Good for those who believe is what I say. Evolution was taught aswell, and state church in no way stopped science from progressing.



[This message has been edited by Splam (edited 01-25-2007).]

^^^^ Thats good that norway has managed to do it. But the truth is the world is full of religious nutjobs who would abuse the power to the full extent. Hopefully norway manages to keep everything balanced for a long time to come.

quote:Originally posted by Splam:

I don't get why most athiests hate the concept of god.



Because I belive it does more harm than good over something fictional.

When you do the math, harm for nothing.

Thats my biggest problem with religion.

I can't stand that it is accepted by he general population of this planet that logic doesn't have to apply to you, because of three letters.

quote:Originally posted by Lacedwithdelight:

Because I belive it does more harm than good over something fictional.

When you do the math, harm for nothing.

Thats my biggest problem with religion.

I can't stand that it is accepted by he general population of this planet that logic doesn't have to apply to you, because of three letters.

How can you possibly say religion has done more harm then good? You, nor do I, have any idea how violent history would've evolved without religion. It's true that religion has caused people to unite against those non-believers, but they've also united among themselves, which has caused peace. It's ok for you to believe religion has done more harm, aslong as you back it up.