I'm writing this on a computer that I have been grounded from. I refused to go to church today and thus suffer the consequences.

My problem is that I have different religious beliefs than my mother, who forces me to go to a catholic church almost every sunday. I'm not some kid just wanting to get out of church so I can sleep in but, I feel guilty going to this church and being told "Jesus loves me why did I stray away from him?"

I've tried to talk to my mom about my religious beliefs but, she just changes the subject or walks away. I think she knows that I'm buddhist but, thinks she can still save me from the fires of hell.

I probably should be meditating on this but, any comments/suggestions/tips etc. would be greatly appreciated.

How old are you?

I was forced to go to church too, even though I am an atheist. After a while, my parents just forgot about it.

However, it seems your won't simply forget about it.

You should very much put up some kind of nonviolent resistance. Even if she drags you to church you should still resist.

I know that all I did in church was sleep, or go to the bathroom and listen to anti-christian music like Deicide and Immolation.

You could refuse to participate in church ceremonies, like making the cross and doing the whole wine-and-jesus-cracker thing. Or you might just want to come across as too much of a nuisance to be in church.

I think the best route is communication. You need to get your mom to listen to you and understand you and respect your beliefs.

I know if it were any different in my case, I would be a real fucking asshole to her and all her friends. Luckily though, my mom is loving and respects me.

Just tell her she can punish you all she wants, that forced believe isn't true belief. Then tell her you're a Buddhist and that you respect her beliefs, so she should respect yours.

If that doesn't work, club her in the head whilst shouting "Where's your God now, uh?!"

[This message has been edited by Source (edited 01-21-2007).]

Why should it matter if you go to church? You have no God, and a church is a perfect place to sit around and think, nothing bad happening.. It's not like you're being contaminated.

If you really object to going.... Don't go.

put a big poster on the outside of your bedroom door outlining the budhist beliefs or something like that. Then do what Source said

I never got to have the feeling of throwing away my parents religion. Because they never imposed anything on me, whatsover.

I probly would have went over the top though. Asked the preist if I can make a speech. Did a whole thing on why I think my life is better suited without religion etc.

Doing it infront of the entire church would get the message to your parents real quik. And possibly spark a revolution in your church, im guessing there is probly shitloads of kids who dont believe what there parents are trying to force on them

your moms refusing to accept your not christian because she doesnt wanna be seen as a bad parent to her friends and other people at church. Explain to her that she's a good parent by raising you to be an individual, and you can think for yourself.

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-22-2007).]

For what it's worth, you have my sympathy. Chrisitanity in general--and Catholicism in particular--is a religion of fear and denial. Over the years, at various 12-step meetings, I have heard people referring to themselves as "recovering Catholics"--that is, they are recovering from the damage done to them by Catholic dogma.

You might try quoting Jesus--"the kingdom of God is within you"--and add, why then does one need to go to church?

If you're truly an Atheist then is shouldn't bother you that other people think Jesus died for your sins and you turned away from them, because you don't believe Jesus is god. And it makes your mother happy, who you depend on. You can indulge her one day out of the week.

Unless... you're not sure you're an Atheist.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

If you're truly an Atheist then is shouldn't bother you that other people think Jesus died for your sins and you turned away from them, because you don't believe Jesus is god.

Oh really? It shouldn't bother him that his mother is taking him to church trying to convert him into being a member of her cult that believes he must believe what they do or he will suffer in hell?

He already expressed that he's young and that he has feelings of guilt from straying from the brainwashing he's dealt with for years, and it shouldn't bother him when loved ones and/or members of the community in church tell him ""Jesus loves you why did you stray away from him?" if he's truly an atheist? Get a clue!

I think he said that he was a buddhist, not atheist.

Communicating to your mom is not going to work as she is a irrational Christian and won't ever listen. Really, anyone who believes in a God is quite irrational since you can't come to that conclusion rationally from the evidence available, since there is none. Some christians still believe the earth was formed 6000 years ago, and that evolution is a conspiracy by the scientific community to undermine God.

Honestly Dude, you're only answer is to keep resisting until she just gives up and accepts your beliefs.

I guess it may depend on how old you are (whether you want to just stop fighting it and go to church until you move out), but honestly, if you really feel that Jesus is not your savior, then don't let going to church for a few hours bother you. If nothing else, sleep, listen to some music, even read. I'm sure theres something you can do with a few hours of quiet time on a Sunday.

You have to ask yourself if putting up all this protest is really worth it. It's probably not. Like LostCause said, your mom gives you a lot, and if your beliefs are that situated, it isn't going to have negative effects on you if you go to church with her once a week.

edit: think of it like doing a favor for someone you love. You mom probably put up with a lot of driving your ass around when you were a kid. It's probably a lot easier for you to just return the favor.

[This message has been edited by cakezone (edited 01-22-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

Why should it matter if you go to church? You have no God, and a church is a perfect place to sit around and think, nothing bad happening.. It's not like you're being contaminated.

If you really object to going.... Don't go.

It's a waste of fucking time to go to church.

Also, read the thread, asshole. He said he was bhuddist.

im 16 so but, I'm pretty much treated like a 7 year old.

Oh really? It shouldn't bother him that his mother is taking him to church trying to convert him into being a member of her cult that believes he must believe what they do or he will suffer in hell?

Yea. If he really doesn't believe in it and he thinks it's a bunch of fairy tales then why should it bother him? It's not like their efforts are going to work if he really doesn't believe.

He already expressed that he's young and that he has feelings of guilt from straying from the brainwashing he's dealt with for years, and it shouldn't bother him when loved ones and/or members of the community in church tell him ""Jesus loves you why did you stray away from him?" if he's truly an atheist? Get a clue!

I maintain that if he's really any atheist without a doubt in his mind then it shouldn't bother him. And if there is a doubt in his mind then there's no reason not to explore other avenues. Moreover not every church is Heavens Gate. It's not all brainwashing. A lot of people just go to church to meditate somewhere peacefull, or for a sense of community, or in the hopes of instilling good values in their children. Albeit the church often fails people but that's not everyones experience.

So, yea, if he's really an atheist it shouldn't bother him and he's a minor so he should do what his mother says as long as she's not telling him to hurt himself.

Cheers,

Lost

^^^^ it would bother me.

sleeping, working, getting drunk, hanging out with friends is a better way to spend your time

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-23-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

^^^^ it would bother me.

sleeping, working, getting drunk, hanging out with friends is a better way to spend your time



Yea, but he's a minor and his mother who feeds him, clothes him, and puts a roof over him asks for one morning a week for him to indulge her. He should either do what she says or move out. Going to church and sitting bored in a pew for a few hours out of the week wont hurt him.

Of course, if he had a job that required him to be there on Sundays he could probably use that as a good excuse not to go. So, if you really don't want to get out of it you could get a job on Sundays. I'm sure that would be just so much more fun. But, whatever. At least you'd be getting paid.

Edit: O, and boozing and sleeping are not better ways to spend your time. Especially boozing since he's a minor.

Cheers,

Lost

[This message has been edited by LostCause (edited 01-23-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Yea. If he really doesn't believe in it and he thinks it's a bunch of fairy tales then why should it bother him? It's not like their efforts are going to work if he really doesn't believe.

He is being taken to a place where his family and community are pressuring him to believe something his intellect won't allow him to. You can't force belief (short of brainwashing). Until then, he is being looked upon by his family and community members as a lost soul and possibly that the forces of evil have got a hold on him. You really can't understand why feeling like an outcast by your loved ones is beyond bothersome? Have you ever felt like you don't belong? It doesn't sound like what he's going through is a picnic.

quote:Originally posted by xray:



He is being taken to a place where his family and community are pressuring him to believe something his intellect won't allow him to. You can't force belief (short of brainwashing). Until then, he is being looked upon by his family and community members as a lost soul and possibly that the forces of evil have got a hold on him. You really can't understand why feeling like an outcast by your loved ones is beyond bothersome? Have you ever felt like you don't belong? It doesn't sound like what he's going through is a picnic.



All he has to do is sit in a pew and be bored for a few hours a week! Why are you people making it out like his family is selling him into a Taiwanese prostitution ring?! It's not like he has to do anything but get up early and then sit on his ass and listen to people banter about stupid shit he doesn't even care about. And if he goes to the church his family wont think of him as an outcast, they'll probably commend him for at least trying and being respectfull of their beliefs. Or at least commend him for trying to please his mother.

Edit: And of course I know what it's like to be an outcast of my own family. I was kicked out on the streets when I was thirteen! You all sound very spoiled and I can't believe so many people are endorsing such spoiled behavior. It's not like his mother is beating him, making him drink laced Kool-Aid, forcing him to go to a Christian boarding school, or even go to a summer camp. All the woman who loves and supports him asks is that he bite the bullet and sit in church for a few hours out of the week to make her happy.

You know, one day you're going to be in college and you're going to have to take classes you don't like and you're going to have to accept philosophies you don't agree with. If you maintain an attitude like this your intellectual growth may as well have stopped years ago.

What's worse is that I'm not even Christian and even I know better than this! It's just rude.

Cheers,

Lost

[This message has been edited by LostCause (edited 01-23-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

All he has to do is sit in a pew and be bored for a few hours a week! Why are you people making it out like his family is selling him into a Taiwanese prostitution ring?!

No one made it like his family is selling him into a Taiwanese prostitution ring. What you are attempting to do is minimize what he is going through.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

It's not like he has to do anything but get up early and then sit on his ass and listen to people banter about stupid shit he doesn't even care about.

You're not listening:

I'm not some kid just wanting to get out of church so I can sleep in but, I feel guilty going to this church and being told "Jesus loves me why did I stray away from him?"

This is coming from the people that he believes loves him. When a fat kid is being made fun of at school, is your advice "just go to school and learn and don't worry about the other kids"?

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

And if he goes to the church his family wont think of him as an outcast, they'll probably commend him for at least trying and being respectfull of their beliefs. Or at least commend him for trying to please his mother.

I'd bet anything that you're wrong. He will most likely be considered an outcast as long as they believe he is not saved by God

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

All the woman who loves and supports him asks is that he bite the bullet and sit in church for a few hours out of the week to make her happy.

Ahem: "...and being told "Jesus loves me why did I stray away from him?"

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

You know, one day you're going to be in college and you're going to have to take classes you don't like and you're going to have to accept philosophies you don't agree with. If you maintain an attitude like this your intellectual growth may as well have stopped years ago.

Yeah, I'm sure he'll find the same types of pressures, guilt, etc., when he takes college classes that teach different philosophies. Makes perfect sense.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

What's worse is that I'm not even Christian and even I know better than this! It's just rude.

Yeah, having feelings is rude. Shame on you, kurdt318!

kurdt318:

I know how you feel, and I can relate to your situation.

This may not offer much by way of condolences, but my experience growing up was similar to yours, and all I can say is that I am a rational, mentally healthy, level-headed adult today. Being forced to go to church (Catholic AND Pentacostal) during my youth did not harm me in the long run. It did not brainwash me, it did not make me second-guess what I knew I already felt, and you know what? ... I feel like I am a more well-rounded, all around better person for having experienced all that.

I learned alot during all that "education", and can exclaim with confidence that I made an educated choice to NOT believe in the supernatural. It has also given me a level of respect for those family members of mine who hold those beliefs so dear to their hearts.

Yes, it irked me back then that I was forced to participate... but had I been given a choice, I would have stayed home, NOT been educated on my family's belief system, and I fear that would have isolated me from the people I love, the people I'm related to, the people who genuinely care about my well-being REGARDLESS of their own delusions about God.

You might feel right now that your family is turning into your enemy because they are forcing their beliefs on you ... All I can say is: Get to KNOW your enemy, get to LEARN their dogmatic belief systems and at some point, come to UNDERSTAND and TOLERATE why they feel the way they do about your lack of faith in their God.

The best revenge is living well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xray:



No one made it like his family is selling him into a Taiwanese prostitution ring. What you are attempting to do is minimize what he is going through.

Trust me. Encouraging him to go into a boycot against his parents isn't going to minimize his problems.

When a fat kid is being made fun of at school, is your advice "just go to school and learn and don't worry about the other kids"?

Uh yea! I mean, you don't just get to drop out of school because the other students tease you for being fat. I got teased in school too for shit and I didn't get to just drop out and it didn't kill me to do it.

I'd bet anything that you're wrong. He will most likely be considered an outcast as long as they believe he is not saved by God

Why does anyone have to know? Why is his faith so important to make public? Why can't he just keep it to himself and save himself the trouble?

Ahem: "...and being told "Jesus loves me why did I stray away from him?"

Boo fucking hoo. Words are words and if he doesn't believe in it then who cares what they tell him about the shit he doesn't even believe in?

Yeah, I'm sure he'll find the same types of pressures, guilt, etc., when he takes college classes that teach different philosophies. Makes perfect sense.

If he feels so pressured and so guilty for being Atheist I don't think he really is Atheist.

Yeah, having feelings is rude. Shame on you, kurdt318!

Refusing to give your mother three hours of your time a week to indulge her is spoiled and rude. Has nothing to do with feelings.

Edit: Also, I highly doubt that he belongs to the church in that trailer. Not all churches are the same. Lots of churches are prefectly normal and healthy institutions. They're not all crazy Christian Warriors bullshit.

Cheers,

Lost

[This message has been edited by LostCause (edited 01-24-2007).]

Its not a question of doing something nice for his mom. Its the fact that she wants to "save him" which I note nobody has touched on yet. She's not trying to get him to indulge her, she's trying to alter him. If he was gay and she wanted to take him straight-speed dating, would you tell him to indulge her? Though yes, religion is a bit more of a choice, he's obviously found what he believes to be true and should have no qualms about refusing to let others try to shove their beliefs down his throat 5 hours in a week. Life is short enough as it is, and unlike all the christians like to delude themselves into thinking, its all we get (ergo his time is more valuable to him than it is to his mom, as his mom believes [falsely] that she will Live Eternaly in the Kingdom of Magic Happy Bunnies or whatever). Don't allow her to take you. Do what EVERYONE in this thread has suggested. Resist nonviolently to make her know you're serious and thinking maturely, not having a tantrum to get out of church. Put a poster on your door with the Eightfold Path on it (is that the right thing? I've not read anything Buddhist in a while). If you are forced to go to church, speak out against it if there is an open forum time, or ask the priest to make a speech/say something/whatever will get you the floor. Drive home the point in as many ways as you can, and bear as many hardships as they submit you to in the name of your cause. While doing so, say things like the buddhist equivalent of "god gives me strength" or something, that will not only be another way of communicating, but it will also impart that you are strengthend by your choice and it has a positive effect on you.

Remember:

You are not their book to write on as they will, you are your own person and you need to refuse to be coerced by them.

quote:Originally posted by kurdt318:

im 16 so but, I'm pretty much treated like a 7 year old.

Ahhh an example of teenage angst, just tell your parents that you are old enough to choose your own faith, even if you are an atheist.

quote:Originally posted by I_am_god:

Ahhh an example of teenage angst, just tell your parents that you are old enough to choose your own faith, even if you are an atheist.

BUDDHIST

LostCause, I don't think you understand what he is feeling guilty for. He is feeling guilty for "betraying his church". By being a Buddhist he "betrayed" a "loving" community that did nothing but "care" for him. It is not the fact that he is a Buddhist that bothers him, it's the fact that everyone else makes it look like he's guilty of something, thereby making him feel guilty.

If you are 18 and you get a tattoo, but your parents find out about it and talk to you about how upset it made them, how would you feel? You have all the rights in the world to get a tattoo, you are not a fake tattooist, it's just if you see that you upset a group of people, you will feel guilty for upsetting them, no matter how righteous you were. And if you don't feel guilty for upsetting other people then you don't have empathy.



[This message has been edited by Lamabot (edited 01-25-2007).]

How would refusing to go to Church make his family any less upset with him?

You've got to pick your battles. Looking at this realistically, you're probably going to put a lot more into trying not to go to church than you're going to get out of it.

quote:Originally posted by cakezone:

How would refusing to go to Church make his family any less upset with him?

You've got to pick your battles. Looking at this realistically, you're probably going to put a lot more into trying not to go to church than you're going to get out of it.

It would seem logical that after explaining to his parents why he's not a christian they would understand and be done with it. Rather then them constantly trying to convert him and teach him to embrase there views by brining him to church.

To the OP

any updates or what? have you had a conversation with them about it

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-25-2007).]

I guess if they would stop pestering him about it that would work. I had thought he had already had some kind of talk with his mom about it though since he said she was asking why he turned on jesus and whatnot.

quote:Originally posted by Prometheum:

Its not a question of doing something nice for his mom. Its the fact that she wants to "save him" which I note nobody has touched on yet. She's not trying to get him to indulge her, she's trying to alter him. If he was gay and she wanted to take him straight-speed dating, would you tell him to indulge her? Though yes, religion is a bit more of a choice, he's obviously found what he believes to be true and should have no qualms about refusing to let others try to shove their beliefs down his throat 5 hours in a week. Life is short enough as it is, and unlike all the christians like to delude themselves into thinking, its all we get (ergo his time is more valuable to him than it is to his mom, as his mom believes [falsely] that she will Live Eternaly in the Kingdom of Magic Happy Bunnies or whatever). Don't allow her to take you. Do what EVERYONE in this thread has suggested. Resist nonviolently to make her know you're serious and thinking maturely, not having a tantrum to get out of church. Put a poster on your door with the Eightfold Path on it (is that the right thing? I've not read anything Buddhist in a while). If you are forced to go to church, speak out against it if there is an open forum time, or ask the priest to make a speech/say something/whatever will get you the floor. Drive home the point in as many ways as you can, and bear as many hardships as they submit you to in the name of your cause. While doing so, say things like the buddhist equivalent of "god gives me strength" or something, that will not only be another way of communicating, but it will also impart that you are strengthend by your choice and it has a positive effect on you.

Remember:

You are not their book to write on as they will, you are your own person and you need to refuse to be coerced by them.

I understand your argument. But, I still maintain that

1. it would not be that difficult for him to go to church once a week to indulge his mother.

2. If he's really an Atheist other peoples beliefs shouldn't bother him/sway/guilt him.

3. Boycotting against his parents will cause him even more grief.

Sure, he's not "her book to write on what she will" or however it was you put it. But, she's his mother and she still gets to tell him what to do.

Cheers,

Lost

Well I'm finally back on the computer. Thanks for the responses I reallys wasn't expecting this much. Firstly, I thought I'd clear some things up

1: I haven't made my religion public. I don't go around announcing it but, if I'm asked I say that I'm buddhist. I don't think many people in our church know this as fact but, I'll be approached by elderly who see me not praying. As for my parents I don't think they know exactly what religion I am but, know that I don't believe in christianity anymore.

2: going to Church is about 1/3 religion and 2/3 social status for my family. If were not seen in church my parents will fear being ridiculed.

3: This makes me feel bad for my family because I feel as if we're just "pimping" out the church for our social reasons.

4: I'm annoyed by spending a few hours once a week at church but, even more annoyed by the youth ministries I have to attend once a week and the summer week-long retreats.

I really havent had the chance to actually confront my parents about this because I want to word it correctly so they don't get really angry at me