This pregnant goth girl told me that a bit ago. It makes sense though now that I've thought about it.

OKay.

God couldnt be a woman.

quote:Originally posted by Synkk:

OKay.

What religion lacks a Goddess presence?

I think God is generally considered a concept, rather than an Idol, in most serious theology.

It's like giving a car or boat a girls name, and calling it she. As in, "yep, she's a good boat, sailed the seven seas on her"

It's just an easier way to talk about it, and obviously has the history.

It obviously has nothing to do with sexism.

quote:Originally posted by Euda:

What religion lacks a Goddess presence?

Protestant Christianity and Islam are perhaps the most notable.

quote:Originally posted by Philosophette:

Protestant Christianity and Islam are perhaps the most notable.

How so?

No, God is generally asexual (in most religions), and like insound said, calling God 'He' is just a way of saying it.

quote:Originally posted by Euda:

How so?

Because their respective deities are explicitly masculine.

Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by "Goddess presence."

quote:Originally posted by Kooper0:

No, God is generally asexual (in most religions), and like insound said, calling God 'He' is just a way of saying it.

No, as the spiritual embodiment of a society's cultural norms, God is explicitly gendered in most major religions. Specifically, those which I mentioned.

quote:Originally posted by Philosophette:

No, as the spiritual embodiment of a society's cultural norms, God is explicitly gendered in most major religions. Specifically, those which I mentioned.

Allah is not explicitly male.

Technically, God is a man because he made adam in his image. Adam was a man 2+2 etc.

quote:Originally posted by insoundfromwayout:

Allah is not explicitly male.

I didn't say Allah was male. I said he was masculine. There's a difference between a deity being male, and a deity embodying the idea of masculinity.

quote:Originally posted by Synkk:

Technically, God is a man because he made adam in his image. Adam was a man 2+2 etc.

But that is very basic theology.

In any serious philosophical or theological thought, God is not a man with a beard, it's a concept.

If you really feel suppressed because God is referred to as 'He' instead of 'She', then you are really missing the point, aren't you?

But then, if you are imagining God as a big man with a beard anyway, you are probably not into more complex and respected theology.

quote:Originally posted by Philosophette:

I didn't say Allah was male. I said he was masculine. There's a difference between a deity being male, and a deity embodying the idea of masculinity.

How does he embody masculinity?

[This message has been edited by insoundfromwayout (edited 01-22-2007).]

Too deadendgirl/didn't take it seriously.

quote:Originally posted by insoundfromwayout:

How does he embody masculinity?



Like I said. God created adam in his own image, which basically means adam is a step down from god himself. Of course I don't believe god is some old wise bearded man, I believe he is more of an entity. But then again this si the exact reason that I dont believe in god int he first place.

quote:Originally posted by Synkk:

Like I said. God created adam in his own image, which basically means adam is a step down from god himself. Of course I don't believe god is some old wise bearded man, I believe he is more of an entity. But then again this si the exact reason that I dont believe in god int he first place.

No, I was talking to Deadendgirl, I mean, how is Allah masculine in Islam?

quote:Originally posted by insoundfromwayout:

How does he embody masculinity?



Allah is always referred to as "He" and is generally assigned characteristics which are regarded as masculine in Muslim society.

Power? Omniscience? Glory? These aren't things considered to be feminine in Islamic societies at all.

When you consider how theological conceptions of God are largely shaped by cultural norms of society (which includes gender hierarchies), you can easily see how Allah is a masculine deity within the context of Islamic culture.

[This message has been edited by Philosophette (edited 01-22-2007).]

God is a crazy woman.

quote:Originally posted by Philosophette:

Allah is always referred to as "He" and is generally assigned characteristics which are regarded as masculine in Muslim society.

Power? Omniscience? Glory? These aren't things considered to be feminine in Islamic societies at all.

When you consider how theological conceptions of God are largely shaped by cultural norms of society (which includes gender hierarchies), you can easily see how Allah is a masculine deity within the context of Islamic culture.



No, I really think you must be mistaken.

Allah is referred to as 'He' because Arabic lacks a gender neutral word for him, and it is the only way to say it.

Despite this, Allah is, to my recollection, never, or at least very seldom, called a father, or brother, or any such masculine role.

In Islam, Allah is not likened to humans. The Koran is very specific in saying that Allah is completely different from his creations; neither man or woman.

And, from the top of my head, I can think of two different occasions when Muhammed himself likened Allah to a mother.

Once, upon observing a mother losing her child after a battle, in comparison to Allah's love, and another time comparing Allah to a woman who Muhammed and his followers met whom was breastfeeding, in a similar comparison.

In Islam, people are also said to have both masculinity and femininity inside of them. Muhammed himself displays this.

Plus, the Ka'bah in Mecca, the most holly of Islamic places, is very feminine.

Come to think about it further, Islam is full of femininity, and I really don't think you can say Allah is hinted at to be masculine more than he is feminine.

Do you have any proof to back that up?

The God of Monotheistic religions such as Judeism et al has never meant to be seen in a gender-specific light. If there had been a word such as "per" in Greek/Arameic/Hebrew then I think it's quite likely that the writers of holy texts would have used it.

The fact is, they didn't, because well...they were mostly men, and there were no women getting angsty about the description of the characteristics of God at the time...

There have never been religions that accept the views of just gods though, as far as I know, the ancient Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, Sumerians etc, they've all had goddesses as well, often viewing nature as in some respects "female" based upon the child-bearing abilities of woman kind, yeh?

Anyone with half a mind has realised (since the dawn of human spirituality) that the gender of the creater of the universe (if such a "being" exists) is not in the least relevant, as how the hell could an omnipotent God that has created man/woman be asiged to one specific gender? The Bible uses metaphorical langauge over things like God creating man and woman, clearly if you believe God made a man, ripped his rib out and then made a woman, you're fucking retarded anyway...shit, how is this credible in terms of the creation of mankind by an allpowerful being?

Sounds like your matey is gona have some serious post-natal problemos if it's a boy? BENZODIAZAPENES, QUICK!! http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by insoundfromwayout:

Allah is referred to as 'He' because Arabic lacks a gender neutral word for him, and it is the only way to say it.

No, Allah is referred to as "He" because "Allah" is a masculine word meaning "the god". The very fact that the word for "god" is masculine in Arabic suggests that the idea of a masculine supreme deity is an integral part of Arab, and subsequently Muslim, culture. This is because pre-Islamic Arab society was polytheistic and had female deities, yet still chose to refer to their new supreme monotheistic deity in masculine terms.

quote:Despite this, Allah is, to my recollection, never, or at least very seldom, called a father, or brother, or any such masculine role.

Fathers and brothers are inherently male, but not necessarily inherently masculine. Remember, Allah is not a male, nor even human, so he cannot actually be anyone's father or brother in any literal sense or figurative sense. So being called a father or brother is really irrelevant.

However, your recollection is hardly legitimate proof for your point.

quote:In Islam, Allah is not likened to humans. The Koran is very specific in saying that Allah is completely different from his creations; neither man or woman.

Something does not have to be human to have masculine or feminine characteristics. For instance, colors can be gendered (pink is considered feminine, blue male) as well as any number of things like landscapes, situations, concepts, and deities.

Recall how masculine/feminine is not the same as male/female.

quote:And, from the top of my head, I can think of two different occasions when Muhammed himself likened Allah to a mother.

Once, upon observing a mother losing her child after a battle, in comparison to Allah's love, and another time comparing Allah to a woman who Muhammed and his followers met whom was breastfeeding, in a similar comparison.

First of all, I doubt the credibility of your recollection. Secondly, comparing Allah to a grieving and breastfeeding mother respectively does not prove how he is not an overwhelmingly masculine deity.

quote:In Islam, people are also said to have both masculinity and femininity inside of them. Muhammed himself displays this.

1.) We're talking about Allah specifically, not people in general.

2.) In regards to your point though, I never denied that masculine and female characteristics can be present in varying amounts in both people and deities. What I did argue was that the masculine characteristics are the ones primarily associated with Allah and emphasized in Islamic doctrine.

3.) In Islamic culture, femininity is considered subordinate (though not necessarily inferior) to masculinity.



quote:Plus, the Ka'bah in Mecca, the most holly of Islamic places, is very feminine.

What makes you think that?

quote:Come to think about it further, Islam is full of femininity, and I really don't think you can say Allah is hinted at to be masculine more than he is feminine.

1.) I'm not saying Islam is lacking in femininity, I merely said femininity is considered subordinate to masculinity.

2.) If you consider the way in which a society conceives of God to be the result of the cultural norms of that society, then I don't see how you can deny that Allah is a predominantly masculine deity. Do you deny this?

quote:Do you have any proof to back that up?

I think it's ironic that you're asking for proof considering most of your "evidence" has been off the top of your head.

[This message has been edited by Philosophette (edited 01-22-2007).]

So, Colossalette, are you saying that "My God Can Beat The Shit Out Of Your God"?

Actually, the theological concept of a God who is female, or rather represents female qualities, is interesting, although most experts agree that it is an illogical falicy due to the fact that women are far stupider than men, and should spend more time in the kitchen and less time aspiring to become omnipotent deities.

While I've really enjoyed watching Philosophette argue senselessly with people of much higher intelligence, nobody has actually address what was first posted.

quote:Originally posted by Philosophette:

This pregnant goth girl told me that a bit ago. It makes sense though now that I've thought about it.

Saying that its "half way to atheism" is vague and unclear, any chance you'd care to explain just how that works?

half-way eh?

Doesn't even come close, you're making generalisations again.

I leik fucking meh goddess so hardez her uterus falls out or is at least dragging out behind.

That's true worship!

*looks around*

Intelligent debate in SG? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

quote:Originally posted by The Humble Noob:

*looks around*

Intelligent debate in SG? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

So discussing theories about imaginary friends is intelligent all of the sudden?

quote:Originally posted by Fascismo:

So discussing theories about imaginary friends is intelligent all of the sudden?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

men are superior to women. end of story.

quote:Originally posted by Philosophette:

This pregnant goth girl told me that a bit ago. It makes sense though now that I've thought about it.

That is idiotic. Punch her in the stomach for me.

A religion WITH a goddess is already halfway to feminism.

Attention whore http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

If you were looking for an intelligent discussion you would have posted this in the appropriate forum.

-F☺rd

quote:Originally posted by Brady:

While I've really enjoyed watching Philosophette argue senselessly with people of much higher intelligence, nobody has actually address what was first posted.

Saying that its "half way to atheism" is vague and unclear, any chance you'd care to explain just how that works?

lol...

The only person even remotely at my level would be Euda. And as you can see even he is no match for me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

However, to address your little point, before I explain it to you I'm going to ask you to think about it a bit for yourself. When you post again admitting that you are incapable of comprehending it, I will enlighten you and your friends. Until then, use your head.



[This message has been edited by Philosophette (edited 01-22-2007).]

When I woke up this morning some dog was licking my ballz! Now THAT'S using my head!

Care to debate?

I'm afraid I was actually being rather modest, I do remember verse and chapter these proofs, and I can give you the surah names and numbers for you to look them up yourself, but I decided against it, as it would be rather hostile and pedantic to do so I thought. I know the Koran quiet well, and I thought I might embarrass you to start reeling off verses and chapters proving your wrong, so rather suggested it as an idea. However, you seem to of taken this the wrong way, and seen it as some sign of weakness and ignorance on my part, which is far from the case, and you seem to of reacted in a rather hostile manner, which I do not respect.

I will try to give as much proof as I can this time around, since this seems to be your main problem with my opinion.

Firstly, here is an article about a teacher who referred to Allah as male, and received terrible reverberations from the Islamic community. It is something taken very seriously. http://tinyurl.com/2nepd3

You seem to be mistaken on your first point, 'Allah' comes from the Arabic 'elah' meaning 'a god' or something worshipped. It has absolutely no male or female connotations. The word can be made into male or female in the language, but is not. The word 'Allah' is genderless, and even suggesting otherwise, as in the article, is terrible blasphemy.

I'll just find some other people to back me up here, as you asked for proof.

http://tinyurl.com/3yt8lz Here for example

quote:

Allah= Has no gender (not male and not female)



http://tinyurl.com/3b5ktc Here

quote:

Q: Is Allah male or female?

A: Allah is neither male nor female. Arabic has no neuter, and the use of the masculine is normal in Arabic for genderless nouns.

http://tinyurl.com/2wmaew Here

quote:

Allah does not have a gender, is not male or female.

I could of course go on, but surely that is enough.

So, no, Allah, the word, is not gender specific in Arabic, you must be mistaken, and neither is Allah himself male, as you already understand.

Secondly, my point was that there are no comparisons to Allah as a male, and yet Muhammed makes comparisons to him as a female.

If you original point was that Islam is a religion lacking femininity, surely the fact that their God is more commonly referred to as female disproves your fears?

You say you doubt my recollection, so here are the parables I mentioned, and as you can see, my memory served me well, and there really was no need to doubt it.

quote:

The Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) saw a woman looking for her young son among the prisoners of war. When she found him, she embraced him and gave him her breast. The Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) said, “Do you think that she could throw her child into the fire?” They said, “No.” He said, “Allah is more merciful towards His slaves than this woman is towards her child.”



From a surmon http://tinyurl.com/2rvs3l here

The other I can't find a direct quote from, it apears it has not been typed up on the internet, or at least not in english, or perhaps I am not good at searching! But here it is used on a website, just an outline of the story. This should be proof enough it exists at least, which was your problem with my recollection.

quote:Another al-Bukhari hadith describes how during the Muslim conquest of Mecca a woman was running about in the hot sun, searching for her child. She found him, and clutched him to her breast, saying, "My son, my son!" The Prophet's Companions saw this, and wept. The Prophet was delighted to see their mercy, and said, "Do you wonder at this woman's mercy (rahmah) for her child? By Him in Whose hand is my soul, on the Day of Judgment, Allah shall show more rahmah toward His believing servant than this woman has shown to her son."

If not, you can look it up yourself if you so wish, it's on the claiming of Mecca.

Anyroad.

What you said was that Islam stands out as lacking a Goddess presence, and this is just clearly not the case!

Not only is Allah genderless completely, but hinted toward as a mother, and a creator in the sense of fertility and birth. These are clear feminine attributes, although not enough to say Allah is female, but they balance out, or possibly surpass, the amount of hints towards Allah's masculinity.

You say, toward the end of your last post, that God is conceived by society, and if the society is male dominated, then I cannot deny that the god would be masculine. This is just short-sighted. You seem to forget, than when debating the God's of a religion, you must argue as if the God's exist.

In Islam, Allah was not 'conceived by society', he is Allah! He was there far before society ever existed; he created it!

I think a lot of your confusion seems to come from a view of Islam as a religion to downgrade women, which is pure ignorance. Islam has a rich feminine heritage, and the subservitude of women you see in Islamic countries existed far before Islam. Islam in itself, embraces women. whether the cultures that embrace Islam do so, is a different matter.

It's like saying "American is Christian, and there is a high murder rate, so Christianity must encourage murder".

I really don't see where you can say Islam lacks a Goddess presence, there is as much femininity as masculinity in it.

And as for your final point, I hope now I have been more concise, you can spare me the argument "you didn't provide any evidence, so I don't need to either"

That last comment of doubt and insult really made your conduct unpleasant.

quote:Originally posted by Kooper0:

No, God is generally asexual (in most religions), and like insound said, calling God 'He' is just a way of saying it.

hey you jackass, my dog just bit me! Show a little respect!

YOUR OPINION IS NOT A FACT

Ahh it must have been moohamed that was suckin my ballz this morn.

Pardon me while I throw up.

shut up fatso your threads reek of sweat and big macs

The only smelly thing would be moohamed's head on a pike after it's been left to rot and ripen for a good amount of time.

That smell would be sweet to me.

MGCBTSOOYG

A lot of people confuse Jesus, the man/messiah, and God. I think that's why people always say He when referring to God. I'm not too educated in the triune concept and I can't say that I know how it truly works, but Jesus was a man. God is neither. God isn't even a physical being imo.

God and Goddess are part of the same entity. Just male and female aspects of it.

As others have said God is a concept not an entity or thing. Calling it a Goddess is just taking it back to earlier times when we lived in a matriarchal society--which is ok I guess, but misguided. Even if we returned to a female based society we would still be unenlightened, as we aren't curing the disease but only a symptom.

Quit trying to anthropomorphise Gods and deities....If there is a higher being pulling strings and guiding our lives, why would it even resemble us....a real god wouldnt have gender, that is a characteristic of a reproductive species....If god is all powerful, he has no need of reproduction in the way that humans do. Thus, he/she/it would not possess the features that distinguish between man and woman.

I have more to say about this, but wont/cant right now....

a religion with a goddess is already half way to polythiseism....ans as i understand it, God does not like competition.

Though if you've accepted some hippy earth goddess as your own personal savior...you're a fucking idiot. you probably have some lame dreads, which are "artsy"..... *vomit in my mouth*

^I believe people are reffering to the biblical God "making us in His image" which is why they get defensive when you mention a female God or God as a concept. To them it contradicts the bible which is absolute fact.Adam came first, Eve was made from Adams rib so the female is a lesser image of God to these nutballs.

[This message has been edited by psuedogunslinger (edited 01-24-2007).]

The main reason this staement doesn't make sense is because there is no god.

quote:Originally posted by glutamate antagonist:

The main reason this staement doesn't make sense is because there is no god.

Maybe if you jump up and down and stamp your feet people will believe you.

women aren't even people so how can they be god