3.5 The 1915 Genocide

In April 24 1915 the Ottoman authorities ordered the deportation of practically the entire Armenian and Assyrian Christian populations of eastern Asia Minor to Syria and Iraq, then part of the Ottoman Empire, and to massacre many of them. The genocide continued throughout the year. By the end of 1915, 1,500,000 Armenians and 250,000 Assyrians had been murdered. Many women were raped and children were kidnapped and enslaved to be brought up as Muslims. Many Christians – especially women - were crucified (the photographs are still extant).

About 200,000 Armenians avoided ethnic cleansing/massacre by converting to Islam. Entire villages converted to Islam to avoid massacre. Churches were destroyed or defiled by being turned into barns. A serious attempt was made to destroy every vestige of Christian identity in the region. Ottoman 'justification' for their actions concerns the claim that the Armenians were a fifth column and that there were Armenians in the Russian Army. This ignores that Russian Armenians had little choice in the matter, that Muslim Turkic peoples also served in the Russian army, and that Assyrians were few if any in the Russian forces. In 1914 the Ottoman Armenians had declared their loyalty to the state, despite isolated defections and a small uprising in Cilicia. The Ottomans falsely claimed that there was a rebellion in Van, and that what killing took place was in the context of civil war. This assertion is likewise false, since 250,000 Armenians served in the Ottoman army. Indeed, Armenian soldiers prevented the capture of one of the Ottoman leaders, Enver Pasha, after his defeat in battle by Russian troops. [35]

Most of the massacres were carried out by ordinary police, although a 'Special Organisation' was established, made up of common criminals released on condition that they murdered Armenians. [36] Furthermore, even the Russian Armenians were massacred in the Ottoman assault of 1918 - 15,000 Armenians were massacred in Baku. Armenian refugees were used for bayonet practice. [37] In fairness, it should be noted that many Arab villages in Syria aided the Armenian refugees, and some Muslim religious officials protested about the policy. [38] Turkey still denies the historicity of the genocide. Hitler justified his policies on the ground that the world did nothing when the Ottomans massacred the Armenians, so they would do nothing to stop his plans for those peoples he wished to eliminate.

Source (http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/xstnc-6.html)

And your point?

well this is an example on how the comfy peacfull picture of religion is actually bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

And your point?

well this is an example on how the comfy peacfull picture of religion is actually bullshit.

Religious extremists who gain power and use it in such ways are not an accurate reflection of most religious people, or most religions.

Know what irks me more than anything? The term "ethnic cleansing".

This term should be deleted from our vocabularies and replaced with:

CRIMES FOSTERED IN THE NAME OF RELIGION

Dawkins dedicates an entire chapter in "The God Delusion" to this very subject.

If someone were to try to kill an group of people just because their ethnicity/skin color, wouldn't that fall under "ethnic cleansing", and not "crimes fostered in the name of religion"...

Are all of the people of Hutu origin to blame for the genocide of the Tutis? And didn't the British work with several Arab tribes to take the Ottoman Empire down? And what about the Arab rebellions against the Ottoman Empire in Palestine?

My grandfather is Armenian, which makes me Armenian as well. Many of his family members were murdered, his parents barely escaped to America. At one point my great grandpa had to disguise himself just to be able to buy a loaf of bread.

People have been killed in the name of atheism.

Ideas are bad. Let's all just kill ourselves.

quote:Originally posted by 1217:

People have been killed in the name of atheism.

Ideas are bad. Let's all just kill ourselves.

I'd like to know about these Atheist groups killing religous people. I've never heard of that before. All through history you hear of atheists being killed in the name of religion, not the other way around

quote:The Soviet Union was an officially atheistic state.

quote:During the first five years of Soviet power, the Bolsheviks executed 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and over 1,200 Russian Orthodox priests. Many others were imprisoned or exiled. Believers were harassed and persecuted. Most seminaries were closed, and publication of most religious material was prohibited.

quote:After the Red Army reoccupied western Ukraine in 1944, the Soviet regime liquidated the Ukrainian Greko-Catholic Church by arresting its metropolitan, all of its bishops, hundreds of clergy, and the more active faithful, killing some and sending the rest to labor camps.

quote:Jewish leaders were arrested and executed, and Yiddish schools were shut down. Further persections and purges followed.

http://tinyurl.com/kxmqx

I posted this in reply to another thread a while back I think.

Never heard of that about the soviet union. I guess the murdering of millions caught my attention more then a few churches being shut down a few thousand priests killed. None the less that is horrible that happend. Kindoff insegnificant in the big picture regarding religion though.

One way to look at the battle through religions is a fight for power. Wich is why the soviet union felt it necessary to destroy them, because they wanted the power of the church.

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 01-26-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

Never heard of that about the soviet union. I guess the murdering of millions caught my attention more then a few churches being shut down a few thousand priests killed. None the less that is horrible that happend. Kindoff insegnificant in the big picture regarding religion though.

One way to look at the battle through religions is a fight for power. Wich is why the soviet union felt it necessary to destroy them, because they wanted the power of the church.



Yeah, it is kind of insignificant when compared to religious genocide. But it shows that religion isn't to blame, it's just crazy people. And crazy people will find a reason to kill people, religion or not.

quote:Shitty Wok wrote:

Are all of the people of Hutu origin to blame for the genocide of the Tutis?

Well surely not all of them but possibly the majority. Its fitting they all converted to islam after the massacre.

quote:Shitty Wok wrote:

And didn't the British work with several Arab tribes to take the Ottoman Empire down?

I dont doubt it. The Ottoman empire was one of the most terrible empires the world has ever seen, please refer to gmail's post.

quote:Shitty Wok wrote:

And what about the Arab rebellions against the Ottoman Empire in Palestine?

What about them? What about the full scale war being fought between iraqui shiis and sunnis? You dont think religion has anything to do with this do you?

Psssst: Sunnis consider shia's infidels and vice versa. Therefore if a shii/sunni will decapitate a christian just for being a christian imagine what they might do to each other for "blaspheming" islam.

[]

[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-26-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

What about them? What about the full scale war being fought between iraqui shiis and sunnis? You dont think religion has anything to do with this do you?

Psssst: Sunnis consider shia's infidels and vice versa. Therefore if a shii/sunni will decapitate a christian just for being a christian imagine what they might do to each other for "blaspheming" islam.

[]



I'm just saying that the actions of the Turkish Empire were sordid and reprehensible, but they do not reflect the attitudes of Muslims. You yourself said that Syrian Arabs helped hide Armenians. The real reason for the genocide was that the Turkish leaders knew the Empire was dying, and they blamed it on the minority Armenian Christians, telling Turks that they needed to wrest power away from them, (total bullshit). I agree with you that Turkey refuses to admit to this despite the fact that it's incontravertable is just disgusting. PS I'm aware of the irony of Islamists killing fellow Iraqi Muslims save Iraq and Islam.

I AM ARMENIAN, uhh, I DEMAND...REPARATIONS...and a Nintendo Wii for how my great grandpa made the stupid mistake of going back to Armenia, getting killed by the FUCKING TURKS (FTR, turks suck!). And I want some Turkish weed also! Gimme Gimme Gimme!

quote:Originally posted by 1217:

People have been killed in the name of atheism.

Ideas are bad. Let's all just kill ourselves.

Really? Let's hear your source. That's a new one to me.

quote:Originally posted by cakezone:

If someone were to try to kill an group of people just because their ethnicity/skin color, wouldn't that fall under "ethnic cleansing", and not "crimes fostered in the name of religion"...

Show me an example of any "ethnic cleansing" that you feel is primarily due to their skin color, and I will show you how it is more than likely linked to their religious views, usually masked by either some form of patriotism or sovereign loyalty.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Show me an example of any "ethnic cleansing" that you feel is primarily due to their skin color, and I will show you how it is more than likely linked to their religious views, usually masked by either some form of patriotism or sovereign loyalty.



The KKK have killed over 50,000.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

The KKK have killed over 50,000.

Demographic studies have shown that two of the prominent professions in the Klan were Protestant minister and police officer. In the original Organization and Principles of the Klan (1868, written by General Forrest), the "Creed" praised the "majesty and supremacy of the Divine Being and recognize[d] the goodness and providence of the same." The "Character and Objects of the Order" also focused heavily on the need to protect the weak and innocent as well as uphold the law.

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/KKK.htm

(Austin, TX) “In an e-mail to the city for permission, a representative for the American White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan wrote: ‘Our speech will not be inflammatory, but we all know the reputation of the name of the KKK, so we expect anti-Klan demonstrators to be there who may become violent. We certainly don’t want any of our people hurt nor any city officials. We just want to come and encourage people to vote for Christian Family Values and against legalized homosexual marriage in the state of Texas.’” (kxan.com)

http://purplepew.org/archives/2005/10/24/kkk-rally-for-christian-values/

Excerpt from Richard Dawkin's "The God Delusion":

Religion is like a cultural virus that, like a computer virus, once downloaded into the software of society corrupts many of the programs it encounters. It isn't hard to find examples to fit this view; one has only to read the dailies coming out of the Middle East to see its nefarious effects.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Really? Let's hear your source. That's a new one to me.



I showed you my source, please read the entire thread.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Excerpt from Richard Dawkin's "The God Delusion":

Religion is like a cultural virus that, like a computer virus, once downloaded into the software of society corrupts many of the programs it encounters. It isn't hard to find examples to fit this view; one has only to read the dailies coming out of the Middle East to see its nefarious effects.

Religion doesn't cause problems, idiots cause problems.

Stupid people can ruin anything, even if there was no religion we would still have the same problems.

quote:Originally posted by 1217:

Religion doesn't cause problems, idiots cause problems.

Stupid people can ruin anything, even if there was no religion we would still have the same problems.

Exactly.

Lately I keep seeing excerpts from this Richard Dawkins book for some reason.

quote:shitty wok Said:

I'm just saying that the actions of the Turkish Empire were sordid and reprehensible, but they do not reflect the attitudes of Muslims.

Yes. I agree with the first part absolutely but the second part is only true sometimes.

quote:shitty wok Said:

You yourself said that Syrian Arabs helped hide Armenians.

And Im glad they did. It shows that even the humanity of people indoctrinated in hateful idealogies can shine through.

On a side note, As much as id like to say islam calls for genocide against jews and christians I honestly cannot. The quran says to leave their way free if they pay the jizya in submission and while being subdued. Not true for non-christians/jews/muslims.

I wonder if the christians weren't paying the jizya at the time. If not this wouldn't be the first massacre over the jizya by a long shot.

quote:shitty wok Said:

The real reason for the genocide was that the Turkish leaders knew the Empire was dying, and they blamed it on the minority Armenian Christians, telling Turks that they needed to wrest power away from them, (total bullshit).

Amazingly similar to the reasons for muhammad to massacre the jews. Ditto hitler.

quote:shitty wok Said:

I agree with you that Turkey refuses to admit to this despite the fact that it's incontravertable is just disgusting.

Yup. I know two turks, one a muslim, that completely agree with you. This muslim is one of the minority that truly are moderate/peaceful (and non-hypocritic) muslims. He even said once that if they kill/harrass the armenians again he will become one as a protest! I am so proud of him.

quote:AngryFemme wrote:

Show me an example of any "ethnic cleansing" that you feel is primarily due to their skin color, and I will show you how it is more than likely linked to their religious views, usually masked by either some form of patriotism or sovereign loyalty.

The Hutu massacre of the tutsi is a possibility. However Im kinda fuzzy on the details. Perhaps they did have some sort of religious reason. Also the KKK. Sure they say its the "christian" thing to do but I wont be believing this until someone coughs up some proof (in the christian scripture).

quote:cakezone wrote:

Lately I keep seeing excerpts from this Richard Dawkins book for some reason.

Me too. This richard dawkins book sold to some idiot for 20,000$ This is a brand new book, not exactly a "collector's item" yet, and with how many people quote it and are adamant that religion must be wiped out, I am beginning to suspect this book is the "bible" of a new religion.

[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-27-2007).]

What a fool to pay $20k for an Amazon item you could get for around twenty dollars, including shipping.

How funny was that eh? Ah, those cheeky little turks they never fail to do something hilarious.

If I'm a member of Totse, and I kill a man, am I doing it in the name of Totse?

Stalin didn't kill in the name of atheism. Who the fuck is he trying to impress? His own personal non-god? The mere prospect is retarded.



quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

Me too. This richard dawkins book sold to some idiot for 20,000$ This is a brand new book, not exactly a "collector's item" yet, and with how many people quote it and are adamant that religion must be wiped out, I am beginning to suspect this book is the "bible" of a new religion.

It's not a religion. It's a little thing that has been around for a while, called sensibility. It's not compatible with a man in the sky who made the world.

quote:glutamate antagonist

If I'm a member of Totse, and I kill a man, am I doing it in the name of Totse?

Well if you say you are. The next logical step is to read totsie's manifesto and see if it really condones or reccomends this.

quote:glutamate antagonist

Stalin didn't kill in the name of atheism.

And muslims dont kill in the name of islam but rather alla.

But you have a point. Communism is not true athiesm, rather a form of enforced athiesm.

Can you name any other states where religion is restricted?

quote:glutamate antagonist

Who the fuck is he trying to impress? His own personal non-god? The mere prospect is retarded.

He is using the flawed tool of communism that gives too much power to too few people.

quote:glutamate antagonist

It's not a religion. It's a little thing that has been around for a while, called sensibility. It's not compatible with a man in the sky who made the world.

That could be true, however this is the same argument budhists and some hindus use to prove their ism is somehow not a religion.

quote:Originally posted by glutamate antagonist:



Stalin didn't kill in the name of atheism. Who the fuck is he trying to impress? His own personal non-god? The mere prospect is retarded.



Ya its pretty obvious why Stalin outlawed religion, churches etc. Its because he wanted POWER. not because he had a strong belief that atheism would help the world. Its because he didnt like the fact that the church held so much power over the people. The power he wanted

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

Ya its pretty obvious why Stalin outlawed religion, churches etc. Its because he wanted POWER. not because he had a strong belief that atheism would help the world. Its because he didnt like the fact that the church held so much power over the people. The power he wanted

quote:State atheism is the official rejection of religion in all forms by a government in favor of atheism.

quote:State atheism should not be confused...with anti-clericalism – the effort to reduce the power of the clergy, especially in politics

http://tinyurl.com/2qc2hl



quote:Originally posted by glutamate antagonist:

If I'm a member of Totse, and I kill a man, am I doing it in the name of Totse?

Stalin didn't kill in the name of atheism. Who the fuck is he trying to impress? His own personal non-god? The mere prospect is retarded.



It's not a religion. It's a little thing that has been around for a while, called sensibility. It's not compatible with a man in the sky who made the world.



You clearly do not want to listen to anything remotely related to religion, and rely on insults. Belittling beliefs other than yours makes you no better than any common terrorist. Please kill yourself.

[This message has been edited by 1217 (edited 01-28-2007).]

The Hutu massacre of the tutsi is a possibility. However Im kinda fuzzy on the details. Perhaps they did have some sort of religious reason.

^

^

^Wrong! The Tutsi's had power for several years and the majority Hutu wanted to wrest their control. They were going to regain rule but the president of Rwanda was assassinated by Tutsi rebels. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and 800,000+ Tutsi civilians were butchered. Nothing to do with religion. BTW, The Armenian genocide made me question my faith, but I realized that it was more about ethnicity and power other than religion as several Arabs conspired against the cruel and incompetent Empire.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

^Wrong! The Tutsi's had power for several years and the majority Hutu wanted to wrest their control.

First of all I didn't say it was religious. I merely speculated... In fact I was more of the position that it was ethnic or tribal.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

They were going to regain rule but the president of Rwanda was assassinated by Tutsi rebels. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and 800,000+ Tutsi civilians were butchered. Nothing to do with religion.

Ok so it was a tribal/political problem. I guess I was close then.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

BTW, The Armenian genocide made me question my faith, but I realized that it was more about ethnicity and power other than religion as several Arabs conspired against the cruel and incompetent Empire.

So your a muslim? I know a turk that has almost the same opinion.

Have you researched your faith? Have you researched muhammad and how he led his people?

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

So your a muslim? I know a turk that has almost the same opinion.



Not yet, wait a few years. And I'm aware that Mohammed's history is complicated, I will, however, resort to an unbiased historian for information.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

Not yet, wait a few years. And I'm aware that Mohammed's history is complicated, I will, however, resort to an unbiased historian for information.

Well, good luck finding one. Its pretty hard to remain non-biased while reading about such behavior.

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

Well, good luck finding one. Its pretty hard to remain non-biased while reading about such behavior.



Well, I don't know any bigots, so, it shouldn't be that hard.

Are they historians?

And btw there is no secular accounts of muhammad's prophetic career. Most "historians" are either religous schollars or biased bigots like myself.

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

Are they historians?

And btw there is no secular accounts of muhammad's prophetic career. Most "historians" are either religous schollars or biased bigots like myself.

Admitting you've a problem is a good start

quote:Originally posted by 1217:

You clearly do not want to listen to anything remotely related to religion, and rely on insults.

quote:Originally posted by 1217:

Please kill yourself.

Do you even read what you type?

And you could actually try to argue instead of typing this inane bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

Ya its pretty obvious why Stalin outlawed religion, churches etc. Its because he wanted POWER. not because he had a strong belief that atheism would help the world. Its because he didnt like the fact that the church held so much power over the people. The power he wanted

Exactly. I'm reassured that someone here is intelligent enough to understand this.

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

Well if you say you are. The next logical step is to read totsie's manifesto and see if it really condones or reccomends this.

Yes. So when did Stalin say he's killing in the name of atheism?

And let's take the hypothetical killing by an atheist of someone, and they declare it to be for atheism. It's still on the same level as someone killing in the name of, for example, the colour turquoise. They can't refer to any atheist "holy text" or any central atheist power structure, and use that to justify it. They won't be motivated by a voice in their heads which the believe is from a higher power [guess why].

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

And muslims dont kill in the name of islam but rather alla.

But you have a point. Communism is not true athiesm, rather a form of enforced athiesm.

Can you name any other states where religion is restricted?

The difference is, though, that Muslims, or whatever religious warrior/martyrs, believe that they are doing the will of their higher power[s].

Dawkins sums it up best with this:

“Without religion, good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things. But for a good person to do evil things, it takes religion”.

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

That could be true, however this is the same argument budhists and some hindus use to prove their ism is somehow not a religion.

Whether they like it or not it is religion. It has central dogma to refer to. That will always be what I believe distinguishes atheism and religion. Dogma, Faith [big F, so non-solipsist] and power structures [someone at the top "closer to God" etc.].

Just did a quick bit of googlage for "Can you name any other states where religion is restricted?"

There are plenty where religion is restricted, like France where the govt. is secular and won't allow religion to upset their decisions.

There are many many states where people are restricted to the state religion, Modern Islamic fundamental ones, Israel and throughout history most Christian states.

As far as I've found there's only Cuba, the USSR and Albania which have made direct assertions against all religon and to promote atheism, though. And even then I'm not sure if they just banned religion and left philosophical, non-religious [poly]theism/deism out of the enforcement.

quote:Shitty Wok Said:

Admitting you've a problem is a good start

Funny joke but you completely missed my point.

quote:Shitty Wok Said:

Not (a muslim) yet, wait a few years. And I'm aware that Mohammed's history is complicated, I will, however, resort to an unbiased historian for information.

My point being that by the above statement you have already made your choice. You are implementing a strategy opposite of the scientific method. You have decided that islam is the truth, that muhammad was a good man, you just have to find someone good enough at lying to make him look good and that will be enough. You have decided the truth is option A and just need to find out how to get there. An honest person would say "I dont know what the truth is and am going to find out by researching both sides of the story." An honest scientist or historian would investigate all aspects of the hadith, sirat, & Tabarii, and use logic to determine what muhammad probably did and what the circumstances were when he did these things.

The next step would be soul searching to see if you agree with these actions. Most people would disagree, but everybody is different.

quote:Originally posted by glutamate antagonist:

Just did a quick bit of googlage for "Can you name any other states where religion is restricted?"

There are plenty where religion is restricted, like France where the govt. is secular and won't allow religion to upset their decisions.

Ok. I meant banned. In the case of restriction virtually all states are secular.

quote:

There are many many states where people are restricted to the state religion, Modern Islamic fundamental ones, Israel

Israel is a secular state with freedoms like the USA. Israel has many muslims, christians, and athiests there. Infact they almost had a gay pride parade there.

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

Israel is a secular state with freedoms like the USA. Israel has many muslims, christians, and athiests there. Infact they almost had a gay pride parade there.

NO they didn't! The government shot that down the second it was suggested. BTW, they are indeed more democratic than most of the Middle East, but what baffles me is the fact that they don't have a constitution.

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

The next step would be soul searching to see if you agree with these actions. Most people would disagree, but everybody is different.

You know the opinion of the majority of the people on Earth?! Wow!

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

You know the opinion of the majority of the people on Earth?! Wow!

Well there are only 1.2 - 1.5 billion muslims out of 6 billion people.

Given I have not encountered a religion founded by a man whom has done things similar to muhammad (torture, genocide, pedophilia, mysogamy, rape, hypocricy, racism, intollerance, "salvation" through violence) I think its a pretty safe assumption that most people would disagree with such behavior.

Also, can you find me the quran verse that forbids rape? (not adultery. The quran and hadith allow sex with slaves)

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

NO they didn't! The government shot that down the second it was suggested.

They shot it down when fundie jews and muslims got up in uproar against the parade. If it weren't for the controversy they almost certainly would have had the parade.

(disclaimer: I am no more of a fan of gay-pride parades than i am of straight-pride parades or of stand-up-while-wiping-ass-pride parades)

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

BTW, they are indeed more democratic than most of the Middle East, but what baffles me is the fact that they don't have a constitution.

Thats because they are a secular state founded on democratic principles, something invented and perfected by the infidel west.