This is taken from a TIME magazine special on the Middle East: "For centuries, while Europe languished in the Dark Ages, Muslim scholars, artists, astronomers and mathematicians flourished...A series of long, bloody, and often inconclusive Crusades followed, and the scars of dishonour they left on the Islamic world have never faded away...After the Crusades, the Muslim world entered a long period of decline...In the wake of their conquests, Islamic rulers also earned a reputation, often forgotten today, for tolerance and moderation; they treated Christians, Jews and others in their midst with respect...It is this respect and tolerance for others that has gone missing in the great fundamentalist revival that has swept across the Islamic world, especially in Arab lands, in recent years...It's true that Islamist terrorists make up a small minority of the Arab world and even a tinier fraction of the global Muslim world. But...a troubling silence persists. Where are the moderate clerics and scholars, denouncing terrorism as a perversion of a great religion?...the central paradox of Islam rests in the dichotomy between what it preaches- submission to one loving God and respect and tolerance for others- and what it practises: tolerance for those who kill in the name of that loving God."

[This message has been edited by shitty wok (edited 01-26-2007).]

In the 1300's, if I'm not mistaken, an Islamic eumenical council was held wherein it was decided that knowledge and faith were mutually exclusive, and since faith is paramount in a religion, that was that.

quote:Spungo wrote:

In the 1300's, if I'm not mistaken, an Islamic eumenical council was held wherein it was decided that knowledge and faith were mutually exclusive, and since faith is paramount in a religion, that was that.

Yes. Indeed something to that effect did take place and free thinkers were at times slaughtered because rules of physics and math are "blasphemous" because "alla is bound by no such rules."

quote:TIME magazine Wrote:

"For centuries, while Europe languished in the Dark Ages, Muslim scholars, artists, astronomers and mathematicians flourished...

First of all the dark ages were brought on by several crippling natural disasters such as the black plague and the mini ice age.

Second of all bullshit. The only discovery accredited to muslims is the "zero," a useful concept indeed except the asians had it first.

quote:TIME magazine Wrote:

A series of long, bloody, and often inconclusive Crusades followed, and the scars of dishonour they left on the Islamic world have never faded away...

The crusades were in responce to islamic slaughter, subjugation, theivery, torture and all-out injustice inflicted on christendome.

Dont give me this pee-cee BS fake, self-hating version of history. I know what really happened.

quote:TIME magazine Wrote:

After the Crusades, the Muslim world entered a long period of decline...

Also a load of crap. After the crusades they launched a full out invasion of Europe, one very similar to the first invasion of Africa, spain, india, and turkey. This invasion nearly cost Europe their soverignty, thank goodness they failed or you would most certainly have a very humiliating, demeaning, and tortured life.

(Before the crusades and after conquering africa, spain, etc) Then they add insult to injury by killing, kidnapping, torturing, and robbing christian pilgrims on their way to the holy land.

quote:TIME magazine Wrote:

In the wake of their conquests, Islamic rulers also earned a reputation, often forgotten today, for tolerance and moderation; they treated Christians, Jews and others in their midst with respect...

Also crap. They made slaves of Africans, they forced jews and christians to wear color-coded clothing, they treated them very miserably.

Unless you think having your kid stolen to become a jihad warrior is "moderate."

quote:TIME magazine Wrote:

It is this respect and tolerance for others that has gone missing in the great fundamentalist revival that has swept across the Islamic world, especially in Arab lands,

On the contrary, it has gotten better there as western influence has played a large role in their societies.

quote:TIME magazine Wrote:

in recent years...It's true that Islamist terrorists make up a small minority of the Arab world and even a tinier fraction of the global Muslim world.

And in most places the "nice" muslims there support the actions of terrorists. They go to the mosque and nod their heads in agreement to talk of killing jews, christians, hindus, athiests, etc. Those that are against this are typically non-muslims in hiding, atleast in places like Saud, pakistan, afganistan, Egypt (to lesser extent), and other places where apostacy is punishible by death. (BTW This is muhammad's order, read the hadith)

quote:TIME magazine Wrote:

But...a troubling silence persists.

Yeah, strange, huh? Islam is a religion of peace...

Right?

quote:TIME magazine Wrote:

Where are the moderate clerics and scholars, denouncing terrorism as a perversion of a great religion?...the central paradox of Islam rests in the dichotomy between what it preaches- submission to one loving God and respect and tolerance for others- and what it practises: tolerance for those who kill in the name of that loving God."

That is the worst piece of dhimmi taqqiya Iv yet heard. What a load of bullocks.



I know many people that live in the ME and contrary to popular belief (should be called wishful thinking) there virtually is no moderate islam.

Here, I will give you an example...

quote:This comes from a forum I visit frequently:

hope the forum will understand if I have to be a little vague on personal details as I live in an Islamic country with a high degree of surveillance of its citizens and residents and a strong inclination toward chopping off heads.

I am a Christian by birth but have long been rather agnostic when it came to the details of the religion. I am a Westerner who works in a Muslim country as a contractor and I have been here for nearly two years now. What has struck me most about the Muslims here has been their depravity. I understand that all men are dogs and it is something that I try to control out of respect and kindness for the female gender. But Muslim men have a ready excuse to indulge all kinds of depravity by example of the Prophet. The Prophet made small girls lawful, quick marriages for lustful men and quickie divorces are lawful FOR MEN, additional wives so husbands don't get too bored with one old hag, and of course the right to rape one's slaves/servants. Masha'allah! What man wouldn't want to be a part of this religion!!!

Then there is anger. I have never been in a place where people are so unkind and discourteous to one another yet almost all are "brother Muslims." Many of the Muslim men keep video files on their cell-phones that show executions and beheadings. They LOVE THEM! They show them to each other and laugh. They try to show them to me but I turn away. I have listened to many try to convince me of all the people I need to hate. I need to hate Jews, Shiites, prostitutes, Americans, Hindus, apostates, Africans and any dark-skinned people in general. They have an unlimited number of enemies.

Simply being here has cause me to become agitated and hostile. I work hard to control this personal anger and understand now more than ever how important the Christian message really is. Islam is corrosive to the soul. I used to believe that Islam was part of the grand Abrahamic tradition. I used to believe that it was misunderstood and maligned by Islamophobes in the West. But my time in several Islamic countries now has shown me the light. Islam is an evil cult.



[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-26-2007).]

Black males’ low achievement could hurt economy

Lawmakers encouraged by Deasy’s reforms

Thursday, Jan. 25, 2007



Prince George’s County’s recent economic prosperity could be jeopardized unless African-American males, who make up a sizable portion of the future workforce, make greater strides in academic achievement, business advocates and educators say.

African-American males make up 39 percent of the county’s public school population, or nearly 52,000 students, and they have among the lowest rates of academic achievement.

These advocates say black boys need more focused support from the school system to be effective workers when they graduate from high school or are ready to attend college.

‘‘We are going to start seeing ourselves regressing [economically] if we don’t ensure African-American males are being educated in a way that would make them productive and effective members of the workforce and society in general,” said Orlan Johnson, a member of the Board of Regents for the University of Maryland.

‘‘You’re either growing or you’re dying.”

Johnson and other advocates say that the situation in Prince George’s includes some hopeful signs.

Standardized test scores have been climbing, albeit slowly for African-American males, and Schools Superintendent John Deasy is implementing a long list of reforms designed to aid all struggling students at all grade levels.

‘‘If you can start to make a difference there [in Prince George’s] you’ll start to make a difference overall,” Johnson said.

A state report released in December 2006 said black males need some of the most focused help that the state could offer to ensure they succeeded in school.

The report’s recommendations mirrored some of Deasy’s reforms, including making more rigorous courses accessible to black males and putting culturally sensitive teachers in classrooms to teach them. Another recommendation, same sex classrooms for African-American males, is similar to one of Deasy’s proposals for smaller learning communities that he has pitched to the county school board.

The report was produced after three years of research by a 49-member task force in conjunction with the Maryland State Department of Education.

Rushern Baker, an education consultant and task force member, said Deasy’s approach offered hope for black males after years of stagnation.

‘‘It’s a good news, bad news situation,” Baker said. ‘‘The bad news is... [African-American males] are the population that doesn’t appear to be achieving at any great rate. The good news is we have a superintendent who understands this. He gets it.”

Johnson particularly praised Deasy’s reforms, which include putting the strongest and most effective teachers in the schools that struggled the most to increase student achievement. Providing greater access to college-level Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate programs, another of Deasy’s reforms, was also a sign that things were turning around for African-American males.

The report says African-American males were still vulnerable because they were not achieving as quickly as either African-American females or other racial subgroups.

Those concerns still hold in Prince George’s, despite the recent progress.

On the High School Assessments, which are required by state law for graduation, black males passed at lower rates than black females and almost every other racial subgroup.

Of African-American males who took the algebra exam in the 2006 school year, for example, only 37.7 percent passed, almost 10 percent fewer than African American females.

Asian males passed the exam 71 percent of the time, and white males passed it 74.9 percent of the time.

While these rates of passing are low for black males, they have increased over the past four years and showed their largest increase in the 2006 school year.

Johnson said that if poor performance of African American males in school continued, it could mean that county businesses could have to go outside the state to bring in workers to compensate.

‘‘Or it could slow down businesses coming here,” Johnson said. ‘‘One of the first things they [businesses] want to know is what kind of workforce they’re going to have.

‘‘If they can’t find it here there are other jurisdictions that would be able to provide that.”

Training the county’s workforce to ensure Prince George’s holds on to its economic development gains is critical, said M.H. Jim Estepp, head of the Prince George’s Greater Business Roundtable.

He said the focus should be on all struggling students, and not just on African American males.

‘‘We want to lift these kids up,” Estepp, a former county council member said. ‘‘There are many in the business community and in the academic field that workforce development is a high, if not the No. 1 priority in the county.”

E-mail Guy Leonard at gleonard@gazette.net.

http://www.gazette.net/stories/012507/prinedu183415_32001.shtml

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:





This is a lot of shit, you know that right?

How do you explain the childrens crusade?

The fact that the era where muslims ruled was one of the most peaceful coexistant ones between all other religions and muslims?

"Let's send a boat full of children to take care of ancient history! It's not like Jesus says to forgive anyone"

Real winners, those crusade people.



How do you explain that scientist have found references to DNA and other modern things in the Quran?

Also kudos to your enemy, that's the only kind of response crazyj and his racist ilk deserve.

[This message has been edited by psuedogunslinger (edited 01-26-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by psuedogunslinger:

How do you explain the childrens crusade?

The what?

quote:Originally posted by psuedogunslinger:

The fact that the era where muslims ruled was one of the most peaceful coexistant ones between all other religions and muslims?

Other than exceptions like in spain that is a lie. And the reason it was true of spain is because it was a predominately christian populace. It was the christians that made all the artwork. It was the christians that made all the music. It was the christians (and athiests) that built the beautiful archetecture.

quote:Originally posted by psuedogunslinger:

Real winners, those crusade people.

They were far from perfect but muslims preferred to live under their rule as opposed to sharia. The same thing is true in Israel.



quote:Originally posted by psuedogunslinger:

How do you explain that scientist have found references to DNA and other modern things in the Quran?

It is a lie. Unless you got proof?

EDIT: If you are so impressed with these "miracles" of the quran, why arn't you a muslim? Or are you already?

quote:Originally posted by psuedogunslinger:

Also kudos to you [...] that's the only kind of response crazyj and his racist ilk deserve.

Racist? Ha ha ha. Your slanted pee-cee attempts to indimidate me with the ever-feared yet tired "R" word do not scare me. Nice try though. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

P.S. The use of this word is typical of muslims I know, you wouldn't happen to be one, would you?



[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-27-2007).]

Your Enemy: Stop spamming the forum with your off-topic crap.

Is anyone else wondering where CrazyJ32 is getting his "facts" from? because they sure aren't out of any history book!

Muslims only inventing the zero?

Sure I suppose Europe just pulled the name Algebra out of a hat. It had nothing to do with the Persian mathematician Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmi's book called Al-Kitab al-Jabr wa-l-Muqabala. Which coincidently was about algebra.

The Crusades a "defensive war"?

I suppose where CrazyJ32 comes from "defensive wars" routinely involve the pillaging and massacre of the lands you are supposedly "defending". After all he knows what "really happened" not like all those historians with their silly old "history books".

Muslims invading Europe?

Pardon me if I can't worked up that they invaded Europe after Europe invaded them.

Muslims making Jews wear funny outfits and taxing them?

Sure to our modern eye thats not very progressive. However compared to the European standard practice of making them wear funny outfits not allowing them private property and systematically murdering them it's positively groundbreaking. Not to mention treating Jews as second class citizens even if they converted.

Muslims making slaves of Africans?

Well some one had to keep the slave markets of Venice supplied! Besides it's not like the slave trade was one way, the Muslims got something out of the bargain too! Who do you think the Venetians sold the kids from the Children's Crusade to?

Muslims taking Christian youths and training them as "Jihad warriors"?

Funny how you overlook the fact that the Jannisaries weren't just cannon fodder jihadis but the Ottoman empires elite fighting force. They were the Sultan's personal guard! Being a Jannisary was an honor that granted wealth and privilege that was the envy of other Muslims. I can't really think of any similar opportunities for Muslim converts in Europe, unless you consider a life in perpetual fear of the Inquisition an "opportunity"?

[This message has been edited by FunkyZombie (edited 01-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

Racist? Ha ha ha. Your slanted pee-cee attempts to indimidate me with the ever-feared yet tired "R" word do not scare me. Nice try though. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

P.S. The use of this word is typical of muslims I know, you wouldn't happen to be one, would you?



So you don't seriously know what the childrens crusades are? They put a bunch of children in a boat and sent them off to fight in the crusades because they where "touched by God" and your calling muslims "insane" ?

I'm not a muslim, nor do I agree with everything that their religion teach thought I do find some of the believes fit with what I believe; then again that's true for most religions i've encountered.

It's the same as the angsty teenagers fighting "OMG duh evil xitians" I take umbrage with the fact that you go around saying that the entire muslim religion in general is wrong and evil. This is why your historical "facts" are idiotic I could care less what evidence you supposedly have of what certain people did in the name of Islam. My problem is with your philosphical statement. Like there aren't instances in the bible that promote the killing and intolerance of other religions and in some cases other ethnicities.

You also never say what the point is with your problem with Islam. So your opinion is you think it's evil. What do you supposed we do about it? I think the KKK and nazis are evil but I would never try to shut them all down as long as they don't break any laws.

If PC is being a tolerant and open-minded human, then call me PC.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:Is anyone else wondering where CrazyJ32 is getting his "facts" from? because they sure aren't out of any history book!

Depends on what "facts" Reguarding islam's teachings I get them straight from the source. I can quote many of them.

Im a little sketchy regaurding history, although I have witnessed many debates regaurding the crusades, jihad, ancient culture, math, science, etc.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

Muslims only inventing the zero?

Sure I suppose Europe just pulled the name Algebra out of a hat. It had nothing to do with the Persian mathematician Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmi's book called Al-Kitab al-Jabr wa-l-Muqabala. Which coincidently was about algebra.

That doesn't prove they invented the zero. Sure Al Khwarizmi perfected mathematics from greek and hindu civilization but the hindus had it first. Infact this (http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/biozero.htm) claims the babylonians used it once.

About the above, I did a little research and it turns out Al Khwarizmi lived in Baghdad 780 AD, shortly after they conqured modern-day Iraq. Now that the first couple of links I got indicate he perfected persian and hindu mathematics it looks like he was a smart man in the right place at the right time. With stolen knowledge.

I still don't buy it.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

The Crusades a "defensive war"?

I suppose where CrazyJ32 comes from "defensive wars" routinely involve the pillaging and massacre of the lands you are supposedly "defending".

There was nothing "routine" about their pillaging and massacring. You've confused them with the muslims.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

Muslims invading Europe?

Pardon me if I can't worked up that they invaded Europe after Europe invaded them.

They did invade first. Look up turkey and spain. Duh.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

Muslims making Jews wear funny outfits and taxing them?

Sure to our modern eye thats not very progressive. However compared to the European standard practice of making them wear funny outfits not allowing them private property and systematically murdering them it's positively groundbreaking. Not to mention treating Jews as second class citizens even if they converted.

Tell me then, why are there no jews or christians in Saudi Arabia?

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

Muslims making slaves of Africans?

Well some one had to keep the slave markets of Venice supplied!

Indeed. The reason I say this is for the occasional doode that makes the claim that islam somehow abolished slavery. Slavery remains persistant in islamia to this day.

Also, what other country besides the "christian" US fought a war with itself to end slavery? Definently no muslim country.

M quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

uslims taking Christian youths and training them as "Jihad warriors"?

Funny how you overlook the fact that the Jannisaries weren't just cannon fodder jihadis but the Ottoman empires elite fighting force.

And its funny how your overlooking the fact that it is still kidnapping. Your overlooking the fact thet these kids get trained to hate, murder, and kill people of their very heritage.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:I can't really think of any similar opportunities for Muslim converts in Europe, unless you consider a life in perpetual fear of the Inquisition an "opportunity"?

perpetual? What exactly was "perpetual" about the inquisition? How many people actually died? How many were tortured?

You dont think the same or worse happened in arabia? Because from what Iv heard it indeed a hell of a lot worse.

quote:Originally posted by psuedogunslinger:

You also never say what the point is with your problem with Islam. So your opinion is you think it's evil. What do you supposed we do about it?

I wouldn't suggest you do anything about it except be aware. Going out and killing them isn't gonna do you or them any good. I espouse my knowledge with several intentions. One being to hopefully keep people from jioning islam. Another to raise political awareness about a subject that has been hampered and squashed by political correctness. This issue needs to be raised and discussed, wether you like it or not. A war is brewing in many parts of the world and it all involves muslims. Why is that? You may find this hard to believe but if you live in the west or especially europe war is on your doorstep. I know you probably think that is hilarious but what do you think will happen when (wether it be to make them happy or because you think islam is the wave of the future, or whatever) what do you think will happen when everybody bows down to them and says "Why not elect a muslim congress/PM/whatever?" I'll tell you what will happen. The same thing that happened in Iran. The same thing in that is happening in Lebanon right now. The non-muslims will be blind-sided by draconian sharia laws such as death for apostacy, jail-time for talking shit about mo, quran, etc. Stoning for adultery, and for being raped, and many other horrific laws. Then the war, civil strife, riots, etc will start, look at france! Did you see the car-bombing? Did you see the riots? Have you noticed people calling for "Death to the UK" "Bomb-bomb UK" etc from the streets of London?

Have you heard of the mega-mosque they plan to build there, funded and owned by whahabis? For cryin' out loud this is so dangerous even some muslims are against it. Europe is selling its soul to muslims and sacrificing its culture on the altar of political correctness, people living there already call it Eurabia, Londonistan, etc.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

I think the KKK and nazis are evil but I would never try to shut them all down as long as they don't break any laws.

Why not. The government actually banned the nazi party and withdrew the KKK's religous status. I think the latter should be done about islam.

[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-27-2007).]

Truth is, several Crusaders also thought the Jews were evil as well, and slaughtered them. Jews and Muslims actually worked together when under siege. Funny how throughout the Middle East, this isn't common knowledge. I think the greatest threat to religion, (be it Islam, Judaism, or Christianity etc.) is loudmouth zealotry. There are several 'Christian' commentators that spew hatred in America. (Pat Robertson said that God gave Ariel Sharon a stroke as punishment for giving land to the Muslims, and that India's poverty is punishment for their belief in Hinduism).

CrazyJ32 you really need to work on your reading comprehension as your responses to my points more often then not were non seqiturs.

I am appalled at your lack of historical knowledge and blatant disregard for historical fact.

I'm not going to bother to demolish your "rebultal" as anyone with half a brain can see how patently ridiculous your claims are.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

Truth is, several Crusaders also thought the Jews were evil as well, and slaughtered them. Jews and Muslims actually worked together when under siege.

I know. The main occurence I know of this started when idiotic crusaders thought it was necessary to pillage a jewish town on their way to Istanbul (i think). They weren't even out of christendome and went and ransacked a town of jews, plundering their goods, killing their people. Jews in Istanbul (i think) got wind of this and united with their muslim pverlords to fight the crusaders. Cant blame them.

The spanish also kicked a vast amount of jews out of their lands.

But like Iv said before, Im not a crusader fan, more of an apologist.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

I think the greatest threat to religion, (be it Islam, Judaism, or Christianity etc.) is loudmouth zealotry. There are several 'Christian' commentators that spew hatred in America.

Indeed it is. It amazes me how much bigotry is present in some christians, they think that because "jesus took away their sins" that their shit dont stink.

However im inclined to believe these loudmouths are, and always will be, just that.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

(Pat Robertson said that God gave Ariel Sharon a stroke as punishment for giving land to the Muslims, and that India's poverty is punishment for their belief in Hinduism).

Oh. Well thats just a belief, and if their god exists it could be true. Did he say it in a demeaning way?

Funkyzombie, did you look up spain like I asked and realize you were wrong in your claim the crusaders "started it"?

Oh. Iv found some links regaurding the historical "humane" treatment of non-muslims in muslim countries and other subjects of historic importance.

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Persecution_of_non-Muslims_in_Muslim_countries

Timeline of Islamic Expansion (http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Timeline_of_Islamic_Expansion)

History of Jihad (http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/History_of_Jihad)

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/List_of_worship_places_converted_or_destroyed_by_M uslims

[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

Oh. Iv found some links regaurding the historical "humane" treatment of non-muslims in muslim countries and other subjects of historic importance.

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Persecution_of_non-Muslims_in_Muslim_countries (http: //www.wiki islam.com/ wiki/Perse cution_of_ non-Muslim s_in_Musli m_countrie s)

Timeline of Islamic Expansion (http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Timeline_of_Islamic_Expansion)

History of Jihad (http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/History_of_Jihad)

http://w ww.wikiisl am.com/wik i/List_of_ worship_pl aces_conve rted_or_de stroyed_by _Muslims (http: //www.wiki islam.com/ wiki/List_ of_worship _places_co nverted_or _destroyed _by_Muslims)



Compared to the European treatment of non-Christians in that time period the examples you site are examples of down right progressive humane behavior.

There was no Muslim equivalent of the Auto de fe for example.

If the treatment of Jews was so terrible in Muslim lands compared to Christian could you perhaps explain to me why exactly do we hear so much of the Jews of the time fleeing to the Mideast and not vice versa?

By the way I never said the Crusaders "started it". I said I can't work up much sympathy when religious maniacs who make their living through pillage and slaughter complain that their lands have been conquered by religious maniacs who make their living through pillaghe and slaughter.

You are the last person who should be giving lectures on medieval history. As I said before anyone with half a brain and a rudimentary knowledge of medieval history can see you're full of shit.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

Compared to the European treatment of non-Christians in that time period the examples you site are examples of down right progressive humane behavior.

Ok. Got proof? Perhaps a comprehensive comparison of the two?

quote:If the treatment of Jews was so terrible in Muslim lands compared to Christian could you perhaps explain to me why exactly do we hear so much of the Jews of the time fleeing to the Mideast and not vice versa?

Hmmmm. You know what? I dont doubt it. Christians were pretty mean to the jews. But did you know that all jews were driven out of Saudi at the orders of the "prophet?"

Also do you have links to this? I would like to read about the flight of the jews.

quote:funky zombie wrote:

By the way I never said the Crusaders "started it". I said I can't work up much sympathy when religious maniacs who make their living through pillage and slaughter complain that their lands have been conquered by religious maniacs who make their living through pillaghe and slaughter.

That is the implication I recall. But regaurdless of your claim the christian ransacking of muslim lands was no worse than the prior muslim ransacking before. Infact theirs was worse.

Most of the crusader invasions did not involve genocide, jew-killing, and pillaging. The ones that did however were indeed ghastly. Before the crusaders the muslim hordes had done much worse.

Why did they call the crusades? I dont know, maybe this has something to do with it:

quote:http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Persecution_of_non-Muslims_in_Muslim_countries

The Christian Empire of Byzantium, which before Islam’s wars of conquest had ruled over a vast expanse including southern Italy, North Africa, the Middle East, and Arabia, was reduced to little more than Greece. It looked as if its death at the hands of the Seljuks was imminent. The Church of Constantinople considered the pope a schismatic and had squabbled with him for centuries, but the new Emperor Alexius I Comnenus (1081-1118), swallowed his pride and appealed for help. And that is how the First Crusade came about: it was a response to the Byzantine Emperor’s call for help. The Crusaders were responding to the emperor dialing 911.

quote:Funky Zombie Wrote:

You are the last person who should be giving lectures on medieval history. As I said before anyone with half a brain and a rudimentary knowledge of medieval history can see you're full of shit.

And I suppose you are a history teacher? Because I see a lot of tu quoqe and little hard facts.

Oh. Well thats just a belief, and if their god exists it could be true.

^

^

^does this mean you agree with him? BTW, you seem to be very much in favour of the Crusades, since you think Muslims are oppressive and evil. Personally, I think TIME magazine has a few more historians at their disposal than you, (and I) do. I agree that there were incidents and hypocracies that stained Islam's legacy, many that have yet to be apologized for, but the same is true with Christianity. Also, moderate Islam exists, look at Anwar Sadat(RIP), Mahmoud Abbas, al-Sistani and the 94% of Iraqis who detest al-Qaeda. The problem here is, the Extremists have the firepower and are ready to kill moderates to silence them, and the US-backed regimes have a habit of economic corruption, and the extremist groups provide a majority of social aid in these countries. Islam is in a dismal state.

You want a comprehensive comparison?

Fine.

Things Muslims did:

non-muslims were tolerated so long as they

acknowledged Islamic superiority

accepted Islamic power

paid tribute (i.e. paid an additional tax) to the Muslim rulers and sometimes paid higher rates of other taxes

avoided blasphemy

did not try to convert Muslims

complied with the rules laid down by the authorities. These included:

restrictions on clothing and the need to wear a special badge

restrictions on building synagogues and churches

not allowed to carry weapons

could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim

could not bequeath anything to a Muslim

could not own a Muslim slave

a dhimmi man could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)

a dhimmi could not give evidence in an Islamic court

dhimmis would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury

Blah blah blah...

Things Christians did:

Muslims were not tolerated.

There are no Muslim communities in Western Europe not because Muslims never lived there but because they were all killed off. You hear many examples of Christians traveling to Muslim lands to study, even staying as guests at the royal court. There are no examples of Muslims being guests of Europe. Unless "guest" is being used euphemistically to refer to Muslims residing in Europes many torture chambers.



"Heretical" Christians were not tolerated.

If you didn't follows what ever the pope said your life was worth less then a Jews.

Cathars

Arians

Audians

Bogomils

Gnostics

Waldensians

the list goes on and on.

Any one who dared to believe in anything unsanctioned by the pope soon found themselves on the recieving end of a Crusade.

The only reason Protestanism saw the light of day was because it arose at a time when the churchs power had waned and Crusades were out of style.

Do I really need to outline the extensive history of anti-semitism in Europe?

Well I'm not going to as I don't feel like wasting six hours. I will give examples of the "humane" treatment of Jews in Europe.



Jews were tolerated only because they were not religiously barred from practicing usury and could practice banking in the kings name. To force them into these moneylending they were officially barred from most professions.

They were not allowed property as all their property technically belonged to the King.

They lived entirely on the whim of the King, the only thing preventing them from being torn apart by mobs of illiterate religious fanatic peasants was royal prohibition. Sometimes even the will of the king wasn't enough to protect them just look up the extensive history of pogroms in Europe for a taste of how well Jews were treated by their Christian hosts.

The reason these mobs knew who the Jews were was because Jews were forced to live in specific communities. All their businesses and synagogues had to be in these areas and built under the express consent of the aristocracy.

Did I mention how the Jews had to wear funny clothes in Europe too? That this was another reason they could be so swiftly singled out by the vengeful mob? They were forced to wear coloured pieces of cloth in the shape of stars circles or squares, a hat called a Judenhut, or even special robes. Jews sought to evade the badges by paying what amounted to bribes in the form of temporary "exemptions" to kings, which were revoked and re-paid whenever the king needed to raise funds. Convenient set up for the king no?

You talk about the word of a jew being counted for less then a muslims in court?

In Europe the word of a Jew was worthless in court! A Jew couldn't even bring up a case against a Christian in most countries!

You talk about how the prophet expelled the Jews from Saudi Arabia? Big deal! The Jews were expelled multiple times from England, France, Germany, Portugal and Spain so the King could seize their property to fund a war, a new girlfriend, or whatever he needed money for. Then when he need money lenders again he'd let them back in!

Conversion wasn't even a refuge like it was in the Muslim lands. At least with the muslims once you converted that was it you were one of them. In christendom you and your descendants would be labeled as "new christians" and your every move scrutinized! You could be hauled into court on trumped up charges you werent even allowed to see and tortured until you confessed.

So yes I would consider that evidence that Muslims treated their non-muslim populations more humanely.

Face it you have no credibility. I never claimed to be a historian or a history teacher. I am a mere diletante. However I unlike you at least have the facts on my side. Facts that you have consistently ignored, belittled, obfuscated, and down right falsified. This gives me all the credibilty in the world compared to you.

You're here to function as a Christian apologist and exagerate the faults of Muslims. I'm not concerned with apologizing for anyone I'm only concerned about the facts. Which is why your arguments fail when put under scrutiny.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

You want a comprehensive comparison?

Fine.

<list removed for brievity>

Those are just the rules outlined in the hadith for being subdued, a requirement of the quran.

You left out a few massacres.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

Things Christians did:

Muslims were not tolerated.

Because the muslims at the time had a nosy habit of insisting they rule everybody. (They still do) Like Spain and persia, just to name a few examples.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

There are no Muslim communities in Western Europe not because Muslims never lived there but because they were all killed off.

Ditto the above. Muslims come in, conquer spain, enforce these idiotic restrictions, on the natives, and get whats coming to them.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

You hear many examples of Christians traveling to Muslim lands to study, even staying as guests at the royal court. There are no examples of Muslims being guests of Europe.

Iv read somewhere that the university per capita ratio between the west and islamia is something like 50 - 1.

Also, I wonder how many of these unis were actually built by moslems and not stolen from the natives.

But nevertheless where are the examples? This is something I have not heard of before, even by muslims.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

Unless "guest" is being used euphemistically to refer to Muslims residing in Europes many torture chambers.

I know of "heretics" and other political prisoners but muslims? Are you sure about that?



quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

"Heretical" Christians were not tolerated.

If you didn't follows what ever the pope said your life was worth less then a Jews.

Ha ha ha ha. Why do you think they are killing each other in iraq? You dont think it would have something to do with the harsh treatment of sh'it "heritics" by sunnis do you?

This has been giong on for about a thousand years. Sh'its formulated the concept of "Taqqiya" (based on islamic scripture) to lie and say they were sunni so they would keep their lives.

Now with the inception of "religion" ID cards its not so easy anymore.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

The only reason Protestanism saw the light of day was because it arose at a time when the churchs power had waned and Crusades were out of style.

Or it could have had something to do with the King James bible.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

how the prophet expelled the Jews from Saudi Arabia? Big deal!

And did you even get my point? Being that this is a religion were jews are to be subjugated and removed from arabia.

Being that violent intollerant christians are hypocrits and violent intollerent muslims follow the teachings of islam, something I can prove with my eyes sewn shut!

Oh and BTW you forgot a few things!

Here I'll give you one. It is taken from the links I gave you.

quote:After they (the Turks) crushed the Byzantines at Manzikert in 1071 and took the Byzantine Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes prisoner, all of Asia Minor was open to them - and their advance was virtually unstoppable. In 1076, they conquered Syria; in 1077, Jerusalem. The Seljuk Emir Atsiz bin Uwaq promised not to harm the inhabitants of Jerusalem, but once his men had entered the city, they murdered 3,000 people.

ATTN FunkyZombie: I love you. And btw, Mohammed allowed Christian delegates to pray at a mosque in Medina, because it was 'a place consecrated to God'.

I've made my point, I'm done with this thread.

quote:shitty wok said:

Mohammed allowed Christian delegates to pray at a mosque in Medina, because it was 'a place consecrated to God'.

I do not recall this. And besides this excuses the massacres of jews how? This excuses quran verses calling for the deaths of non-monotheistic people how? This excuses muhammad's behavior towards women, jews, non-muslims, and little girls how?

quote:Funky Zombie Said:

I've made my point, I'm done with this thread.

And Iv made mine. No you wont dare to debate islam with me nor did you dare to include the victimization massive genocide of hindus and budhists in your "comparison."

[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-29-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

[B] I do not recall this. And besides this excuses the massacres of jews how? This excuses quran verses calling for the deaths of non-monotheistic people how? This excuses muhammad's behavior towards women, jews, non-muslims, and little girls how?[B]

The Qur'an REPEATEDLY states that Allah decides how to deal with people who reject Faith. And the Qur'an refers to Jews as the Children of Israel, not unbelievers. What of the statement that: there is no compulsion in religion. Alright, Mohammed's troops may have killed innocent Jews, and that was a grave mistake, but that doesn't mean he is comparable to Hitler. Mohammed also had a high respect of the Jewish King of Ethiopia. He also advised those taunted for their Jewish origins "say unto them: My father is Aaron, and my Uncle is Moses". And BTW, You have such a stunning ability to base much of your statements on speculation. And the words of the Qur'an are open to interpretation, they were never meant to be literalist. I will never listen to you, as much as you rant and spread disinformation, I will go to someone who has University-level knowledge. You think I care about your smug sense of pride, how you believe anyone with a different opinion is automatically wrong? I tried compromising with you (tactics I learned from the Qur'an), I tried to explain how Islamic states are in severe economic and political disarray and how that leads to extremism, and you childishly ignored what I said. That's the same short-sightedness and arrogance you claim to be speaking out against. I am currently reading a book by a Muslim moderate about wresting Islam back from the extremists, I'm getting the facts from people who have done credible research, something you've never done. You know what, be a child and place yourself on your phantom pedistal, I however will use Islam to preach charity, respect and tolerance for different religions and cultures, and acknowledging that several matters in life are best left for Allah to decide upon. NOTHING you can say will stop me. I know that Allah will forgive you, I wish I could say the same for myself.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

The Qur'an REPEATEDLY states that Allah decides how to deal with people who reject Faith.

And it calls for slaughter and subjugation of the infidels.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

And the Qur'an refers to Jews as the Children of Israel, not unbelievers.

Yup. In the beginning of muhammad's career he said lots of nice things about jews and christians. But as the hadith records muhammad realizes that jews are a people deviod of understanding that will never accept his prophethood. So as his first act of animosity towards them he changes his quibla from jerusalem to mecca.



quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

What of the statement that: there is no compulsion in religion.

What of it? You dont think 9:29's "make them feel themselves subdued" counts as a form of compulsion?

Ill shed some light on it for ya. Quran 2:106 takes care of the un-wize peaceful verses spoken by muhammad when he was weak and powerless. It paves the way for subjugation, murder, oppression, and yeah, compulsion.



quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

Alright, Mohammed's troops may have killed innocent Jews, and that was a grave mistake, but that doesn't mean he is comparable to Hitler.

I have a list of >20 strong similarities.

Ill give you an example. Adolf came off as a nice, intelligent guy, too. He said nice things about equality for germans and kissed babies. But, like muhammad, the more powerful he got the meaner he got.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

Mohammed also had a high respect of the Jewish King of Ethiopia.

Or so he said. I recall him saying many nice, flattering things about jews. But thats just it, flatery. Tell me of something good muhammad did.

Iv heard of the supposed story when he checked on an old lady that taunted him. Not only is this story sketchy, but it is the only good deed Iv heard of him doing. So muhammad has 1 good deed, Jesus >20 or 30. Muhammad >70 bad deeds, Jesus 0.

So tell me, is muhammad really a "mercy to mankind?" If I didn't know any better Id say Jesus was but not muhammad.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

He also advised those taunted for their Jewish origins "say unto them: My father is Aaron, and my Uncle is Moses".

Hmmm. I have the whole quote. Infact I believe it was you that used it on this site.

quote:When Saffiyah, one of his wives, complained that she was taunted for her Jewish origins, he told her, "Say unto them, `my father is Aaron, and my uncle is Moses.'"

Huh. Thats much better than commanding his followers to be nice to his wife. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Speaking of Saffiyah, did you know she was taken as booty from the battle of Khaybar?

quote:Tabari VIII:116 or Ishaq p. 511

“So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered Khaybar home by home. The first stronghold defeated was Naim. Next was Qamus, the community of Abi Huqayq. The Messenger took some of its people captive, including Safiyah bt. Huyayy, the wife of Kinanah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”

It gets better. Look at what happened to her husband...

quote:Surat Rasulalla p. 515:

Kinana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came (Tabari says "was brought"), to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" He said "Yes". The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found.

When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has.

So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud."

Who was killed in a battle they started.

And this is the psychopath they admire.

Anyways, back to the topic of sufiya, you dont think the mohammadans were being mean to the poor jew because of mean things their prophet said about the jews, do ya?

Also, isn't it funny that in islam pigs are dirty, hated creatures and jews are pigs yet they're good enough to sleep with muhammad?

Isn't that strange?

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

And BTW, You have such a stunning ability to base much of your statements on speculation.

That is because I form most of my answeres in the form of a question. This is my way of getting people to think.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

And the words of the Qur'an are open to interpretation, they were never meant to be literalist.

Not according to the quran. There are verses calling such "interpreters" hypocrites. If you wish I can dig them up for you.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

I will never listen to you, as much as you rant and spread disinformation,

I use facts. I provide links to source material and quote directly from the source. Dont give me this "disonformation" BS. Nobody's buying it, with the possible exception of funky_zombie. But even he forgot to add a few facts to his "comparison" of islam's atrocities and christendomes.



quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

You think I care about your smug sense of pride, how you believe anyone with a different opinion is automatically wrong?

Nonsence. I have given many opportunities for you and your friends to provide opposing views and evidence. So far the only thing I havn't seen before is the "children's crusade" which isn't even related to muhammad.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

I tried compromising with you (tactics I learned from the Qur'an), I tried to explain how Islamic states are in severe economic and political disarray and how that leads to extremism,

And I dont compromise unless I see overwhelming evidence against my view. So far you havn't provided me with such. So far you use poverty to justify the terrorism in the ME, yet I see many poor non-muslim countries yet no terrorism, local nor international.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

and you childishly ignored what I said. That's the same short-sightedness and arrogance you claim to be speaking out against.

BS. You ignore my quotations from islamic scripture that condemn muhammad for the fur he was.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

I am currently reading a book by a Muslim moderate about wresting Islam back from the extremists, I'm getting the facts from people who have done credible research, something you've never done.

I got my facts from islamic scripture and secularists that dont have a religion to shove down people's throat.

I have a challenge for you.

Find me all the good deeds done by muhammad. This does not include useless pieces of advice that amount to inaction. This does not include condolences he has said to people with grievances. This does not include booty he gave to his fellow pirates.

I dare you to find me examples of things he did for those that cannot benefit him.

[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-29-2007).]

I don't know why your wasting your time with this lunatic, shitty wok. He's wrong, I know it, you know it, anyone with half a brain knows it. The only people who'll agree with his nonsense are idiot religious fundamentalists, and racist assholes.

The fool's probably from Stormfront or something. That or he's a troll account. No amount of logic or reasoning will show him the error of his ways.

Just ignore him.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

I don't know why your wasting your time with this lunatic, shitty wok.

Because I have shaken his belief that muhammad was a peaceful man.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:He's wrong, I know it, you know it,

Prooove me wrong!

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

anyone with half a brain knows it. The only people who'll agree with his nonsense are idiot religious fundamentalists, and racist assholes.

Anyone with half a brain is too slow to research anything. Most "half brains" swallow the BBC crap that islam is a religion of peace and that radical muslims should be ushered into the UK as "political refugees."

Bah! I don't know why I'm wasting my time on degenerate swine like you!

I already have proven you wrong !

On multiple occasions in fact.

In one thread you posted your tripe about how Mohamed was a degenerate sociopath and because of that Islam was irrevocably tainted. I then pointed out Moses was also a degenerate genocidal sociopath who even slaughtered his own people to appease his god yet you seem to have no problem with Jews. You never really explained your hypocrisy on that account.

In that same thread you posted some of Islam's crueler laws claiming that they were commandments that showed how irrevocably wicked Islam is. You asked where in the Bible god demanded such wicked deeds. I then pointed out how leviticus was chock full of laws that demanded death as punishment for believer and unbeliever alike. You then posted some transparent semantical bullshit about how those weren't really commandments and that they didn't count.

In this thread you claimed that muslims never contributed anything to society except maybe inventing the zero. I then pointed out how you're full of shit because the mathenatical concept we know of as algebra was innvented by a muslim. How the very name algebra is derived from the arabic name of the treatise he wrote on the subject. You then posted some bullshit dismissing my point saying that he just stole his ideas from mathematical greek concepts. Which is bullshit. Of course he got ideas from the Greeks before him! Thats the way science and math works! Should we dismiss Einstein because he was inspired by Newton, and Newton because he was inspired by Ptolemy? To quote newton himself "we are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any sharpness on sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size." Note how I never even covered Muslim contributions to optics, medicine, astronomy, and anatomy an I completely demolished your "point".

In this thread you posted the restrictions and laws non-muslims in muslim lands must obey and that they were evidence that Muslims were less humane then their Christian neighbors. I then pointed out how the exact same laws applied to non christians in Christian lands. In fact I pointed out how the laws were in fact stricter in Christian lands and that in fact to be a non-christian in Europe was to face near certain death. You then posted some bullshit saying how the laws were so strict for Muslims in Europe because Muslims wanted to spread and conquer. As if the Christians all the Christians wanted to do was humbly sit around the camp fire and sing kumbaya!

I never did demolish your point on "genocide" though.

You want to talk genocide?

Let's talk genocide.

I'm afraid the Christians have the market cornered. Why do you think Russians and Germans have such bad blood between them? The argument predates ww2 by centuries. Crusades weren't just something that happened to Muslims you know. I'm sure you already knew that but your selective memory prevents you aknowledging it.

The same way that despite the fact that according to you Muslims commited genocide against Buddhists and Hindus those two religions are thriving to this day. I guess they didn't do a very good job. Not like those Christians. I can't think of a single no-abrahimic religion that survived intimate close quarter contact with Christian rule. Can you?

On the other hand without even trying I can think of three that survived contact with Muslim rule. Heck you even mentioned two of them Hinduism and Buddhism! Let's not forget the third though good old fashioned Zorastrianism. Despite living in intimate contact with Muslims for centuries deep in the heart of Muslim held territories Zorastrians thrive to this day! How many no abrahimic European religions can you name that can make that claim.

As I said I'm not here to apologize for Islam. Islam has done some fucked up shit in it's day and i'll be the first to admit it. I'm here to point out that there's a reason why Islam plays second fiddle to Christianity in the world and it's not because the Christians were nicer or had a more persuasive argument.

A. Those OT laws do not command people to do those things. They state that these things shall happen.

B. Moses is not the founder of christianity!, Helooooo -Jesus saved a prostitute (adultery ring a bell?) from death!

quote:funky zombie wrote:

Wanna talk genocide?

I'm afraid the Christians have the market cornered.

Im afraid they dont! Heres an example, you think the christians can beat 80 million?

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/29320

And thats just india. And dont give me this "it aint islam" crap!

Islam gives the following options to the following groups of people:

Christians/jews:

Convert

Death

Pay jizya and be "subdued"

Non-christians/jews/muslims:

Convert

Death

Oh yeah, I did a google search on zoroastrianism and look what was at the top:

http://www.zoroaster.net/indexe.htm

(and, yeah I know the muslims turned a blind eye to religous group #2 in some cases)

Looks like your zoroastrian argument just got pwned.

[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-29-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

A. Those OT laws do not command people to do those things. They state that these things shall happen.

Which is as I pointed out semantical bullshit.

quote:Originalkly posted by CrazyJ32 Moses is not the founder of christianity!, Helooooo -Jesus saved a prostitute (adultery ring a bell?) from death!

Funny, I don't recall claiming otherwise...

Could you point out where exactly I said Moses founded Christianity? If you can't I'd appreciate it if stop putting words in my mouth.

quote:Originally posted by CrazyJ32:

Im afraid they dont! Heres an example, you think the christians can beat 80 million?

htt p://www.da nielpipes. org/commen ts/29320 (http: //www.dani elpipes.or g/comments /29320)

And thats just india. And dont give me this "it aint islam" crap!

Islam gives the following options to the following groups of people:

Christians/jews:

Convert

Death

Pay jizya and be "subdued"

Non-christians/jews/muslims:

Convert

Death

And as I pointed out Christianity didn't get to be the number one religion in the world by being nicer then the Muslims.

By the way I find your claims that 80 million hindus were killed off by Muslims laughable! You expect me to believe that the Muslims, men armed with swords, outdid the Germans, men armed with machine guns and deathcamps, by over ten fold? All because some shill says so in a blog? I'm sorry but you're ridiculous and the whole world knows it.

:sigh: Sure, nazism had machine guns. But islam had well over a millenium dooode!

Read. http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/History_of_Jihad_Against_the_Hindus

Oh. And christianity got its following in part due to missionaries. Perhaps a nice, peaceful dogma is preferable to a violent, intolerent, mysogynist one?



[This message has been edited by CrazyJ32 (edited 01-30-2007).]

Bullshit.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/holiday/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.unitedamericancommittee.org/

http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.activistchat.com

http://islam-watch.org/CommunityServer/forums/default.aspx

http://islam-watch.org

http://www.masada2000.org/islam.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

http://www.islam-watch.org/

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

http://www.atcoalition.net/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/6-Mein%20Kampf_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/moslem.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.php

http://www.factsandlogic.org

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/zakirnaik/zakicaptured.gif

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/toc.html

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/quotes1.html#terrorism

http://www.pmw.org.il/

http://tinyurl.com/ydc9qj



According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm

---------

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5197

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5237

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5258



"Modern Liberals, With Some Exceptions, Are Fascists. They Preach Peace At The Expense Of Liberty, Diversity At The Expense Of Common Sense, Equality At The Expense Of Fairness And Choice At The Expense Of Life. They Are The First To Speak About Rights, Yet They Seek To Deny You Yours If You Disagree With Them. They Vociferate The Importance Of Free Speech, Yet Do Everything In Their Power To Stifle Yours. They Demonize The Very System Which Allows Them The Freedom To Criticize In The First Place, And They Are The Last People In Line When It Comes To Defending The One Country On Earth That Would Ever Tolerate Their Hypocrisy. They Are Divisive, Immoral And Utterly Incapable Of Understanding Why Everything I Just Wrote Is The Truth." - Edward L. Daley

"Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole." - Thomas Sowell

“Some of the most vocal critics of the way things are being done are people who have done nothing themselves, and whose only contributions to society are their complaints and moral exhibitionism.” – Thomas Sowell

“A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.” – G. Gordon Liddy

------------------

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

Bullshit.

Whats the matter? Too afraid to pull your head out of the sand?

No just tired of dancing the same sad dance over and over and over with you. I'm tired of making points that you ignore. That and my laptop's batteries were dying and anything verbose was out of the question.

If you wan't me to take you seriously try posting a credible source to back up this 80,000,000 casualty count not some wiki that's essentially anti-muslim propaganda.

At any rate...

I looked it up on my own and found that the original source was a single pro-Hindu historian who's work has yet to undergo peer review and is only accepted as fact by people out to paint Muslims as satanic monsters.

By the way even if we accept these numbers they in now way overshadow Christianity's genocide of the Natives of the American continents through biological warfare, massacre, and slavery. A genocide estimated at over 100,000,000 by historian David Stannard in his book American Holocaust. Granted his views have not attained mainsteam acceptance but then again neither have the views of Koenraad Elst.

So as I said in regards to your post...

bullshit.

[This message has been edited by FunkyZombie (edited 02-01-2007).]

Alright. Neither of us are going to convince the other about islam/christianity's past. Both were horrific and much of it happened so long ago that real stats are very hard to come by.

But would you say these idealogies are equal in terms of tolerance for others, totalitarianism, and actions of current followers, and humanity towards women (both in scripture and in actions)?