Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing, that the end nullifies all means, no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years, the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing, that the end nullifies all means, no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years

Only if I care more about the future than the here and now, which I do occasionally.

quote:the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

I can't speak for others, but who says that is my only purpose? And if it is, what is wrong with trying to affirm life?

Does it bother you that your only purpose is to please a God that makes arbitrary laws, so that you can get into heaven for an eternity of being pleased?

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Only if I care more about the future than the here and now, which I do occasionally.

But here and now will not last long. It will soon be forgotten.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

I can't speak for others, but who says that is my only purpose? And if it is, what is wrong with trying to affirm life?

If you got other purposes, I'd like to hear about them. And let's not speak about what's wrong or not, I was talking about if it bothers you to live on what might as well be illusions.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Does it bother you that your only purpose is to please a God that makes arbitrary laws, so that you can get into heaven for an eternity of being pleased?

Did I ever say that I follow a dogmatic belief because of a silly promise about fantasy realms to spend eternity in? I suggest we keep my beliefs out of this, as it was not what I intended to discuss.

quote:But here and now will not last long. It will soon be forgotten.

Here is the present. Here is the present. Here is the present. There is only the present. The past is dead. The future is mere possibility. I say live in the present, embrace life and stop being such a pessimist.

This life being the only life, there being no God, there being no objective purpose, no objective morality. These are not the problem. The problem is your frame of mind, how you approach this situation.

In short, to reply to your thread, no, it does not bother me unless I'm in a pessimistic mood.

edit - ps, atheism literally means absence of belief in God. You can not believe in god while believing in something beyond this life. So way to make sweeping generalizations about atheists.

[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 02-02-2007).]

Go back to HB (http://tinyurl.com/yyjvry).

This physical world you speak of is pretty fucking big and myseterious. I, or humans as a whole have yet to figure out and see all of the physical world. Why would you focus on an imaginary world right away.

Personally it would bother me more if i was in any way tempted to believe in a benevolent omnipotent force that compels me to follow arbitrary (and often contradictory) rules to attain some kind of perpetual life which, if those same rules had to be followed, sounds pretty fucking tedious to me.

(and that is before i start thinking about the infifnite unlikelyhood of such a force existing)

Don't Worship Gaps!

Jesus, I don't want to exist for all eternity!!! I'll need an effin break after all the coke I snort well into my late 80's(medicine forbid)!!

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Here is the present. Here is the present. Here is the present. There is only the present. The past is dead. The future is mere possibility. I say live in the present, embrace life and stop being such a pessimist.

Yes, this is indeed the present, but both present and future will in time turn into past and will then be dead. I agree that this is a pessimistic view, but it's a view easy to be tormented by. Even if you don't want to see it, it is the truth.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

In short, to reply to your thread, no, it does not bother me unless I'm in a pessimistic mood.

Now that's an answer I'm happy with.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

edit - ps, atheism literally means absence of belief in God. You can not believe in god while believing in something beyond this life. So way to make sweeping generalizations about atheists.

Yeah, that is correct. I apologize for not seeking the true definition of the word before using it. I guess to make myself better understood, you can replace "atheists" with "people who believe there is nothing to this world beyond what we can senses with one or more of our 5 basic senses right now".

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

This physical world you speak of is pretty fucking big and myseterious. I, or humans as a whole have yet to figure out and see all of the physical world. Why would you focus on an imaginary world right away.

Yes, but it suffers from some time-related limits. Existing only in this realm, you will eventually decay into ashes, and then it won't matter how much there is to figure out, because you will no longer have the chance to.

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing, that the end nullifies all means, no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years, the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

Nope.

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Yes, but it suffers from some time-related limits. Existing only in this realm, you will eventually decay into ashes, and then it won't matter how much there is to figure out, because you will no longer have the chance to.

That doesnt bother me. For one I'm not comforted in believing in something imaginary. I'm not a 3 year old child.

The more times I hear about these religious thoughts comforting and making you feel good I realise more and more that Religion is just an adults version of santa claus, the tooth fiary and the stork.

Weak minded people.

This is why if I have kids I will not tell them those rediculous stories either.

[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 02-02-2007).]

quote:Yes, this is indeed the present, but both present and future will in time turn into past and will then be dead. I agree that this is a pessimistic view, but it's a view easy to be tormented by. Even if you don't want to see it, it is the truth.

To repeat myself again: it's not the situation, it's how one perceives the situation. It'll seem depressing if you perceive it as a pessimist, it'll seem positive if you embrace it and do just the opposite.

You can spend your time dreading something that you cannot change or you can say "OK, this is the only life I have, so instead of waiting for something that isn't going to come(the afterlife) and kidding myself, I'm going to embrace the here and now and do something with it!"

quote:Now that's an answer I'm happy with.

Why?



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 02-02-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Levo75:

Go back to hb

Forumist

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You can spend your time dreading something that you cannot change or you can say "OK, this is the only life I have, so instead of waiting for something that isn't going to come(the afterlife) and kidding myself, I'm going to embrace the here and now and do something with it!"

Or you can embrace life as it is now, and still believe that some day there's another place for you.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Why?

It answers my question short and directly. Many people seem to think that the more words they add the better the post will be, but this is not always the case. I prefer short and direct answers.

A little off topic, but why do you keep using the thumb up symbol in your posts? Do you think it'll make us more accepting of what you're saying or something? O.o

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing, that the end nullifies all means, no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years, the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

Once apon a time it did, when I was about 10 or so. But I've grown out of that now.

If you believe in infinity after life, life loses its meaning, kind of like how an ant loses its meaning compared to a giant sequoia tree.

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing

No. Why should it? What more do we need?

quote:that the end nullifies all means

The only interpretation for this statement that I can think of is: that we'll die and everything we did is basically nullified. If it's something else, tell me.

As for my interpretation... no, that doesn't bother me either. So what if I die? That doesn't change the now. The pleasure I experience is no less real than if I thought I would experience it forever.

quote: no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years

Nope, still no botheration. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif) Like I said, it doesn't matter that years from now I probably won't even remember this post... right now it matters. The eventually deletion of this post doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the meantime!

quote:the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

That's not my only purpose, but it's a main one, and again I just don't see the problem with it. What more worthy purpose could there be? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

Like Geist said, it's all in how you look at it. Life is raw clay, waiting to be sculpted by your outlook. If there's no objective purpose, then you're free to make your own! I am the master of my fate. You are the captain of your soul. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Nope. And all the "answers" I've heard from theists on the issue of an afterlife have been naive, convinient, baseless, disgusting, or a combination of those things.

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing, that the end nullifies all means, no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years, the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

I've heard this used in a formal debate to support theism.

I don't think you were trying to use it that way, but still.

I would much rather face the world as it is then persist in delusions, no matter how comforting.

In fact, since theism seems so desirable, we should be even more suspicious of it being correct.

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

If you believe in infinity after life, life loses its meaning, kind of like how an ant loses its meaning compared to a giant sequoia tree.

The ant has its meaning to its colony, and the colony to the earth surrounding it.

It doesn't bother me that when I die I won't go nowhere because I'll be too dead to care. The energy that I'm made of will be redistributed and will form new lifeforms and such. I'm a small part of the universe, but none the less, just as important as everything else that has ever existed. I'm glad I'm alive, and when I die, I'll be to dead to care that there isn't an afterlife. However, in this time, I'll live forever.

Nothing matters except the present, nothing exists except the present.

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing, that the end nullifies all means, no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years, the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

no

Hell ya, but at least I'm not living a lie in a fairy tale world.

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

I guess to make myself better understood, you can replace "atheists" with "people who believe there is nothing to this world beyond what we can senses with one or more of our 5 basic senses right now".

Who believes that? Everyone knows there is more than what we are aware of. It's just that so far we have nothing to support the myths and fantasies of primitive tribes.

It bothers the shit out of me. I'm not going to pretend that I'm fine with the idea. Maybe one day I'll come to terms with it, but I'm not ready yet.

But what makes me feel good is irrelevant. I could believe in an all-knowing, all-powerful God who loves me and has a place for me after death, but I would be lying to myself. The universe isn't going to adjust reality to fit with my delusions.

No, it doesn't bother me in the least.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

It's just that so far we have nothing to support the myths and fantasies

...

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:



Everyone knows



???

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

If you got other purposes, I'd like to hear about them. And let's not speak about what's wrong or not, I was talking about if it bothers you to live on what might as well be illusions.

seriously now, who you trying to kid?

youre the one whos living an illusion.

not even going to waste time with this one, youre too fucking stupid to understand.

sigh* sheep. everywhere.

quote:Originally posted by Kykeon:

The universe isn't going to adjust reality to fit with my delusions.

This doesn't seem to count for theists.

Of course it bothers all of us, whether we admit to it or not.

But the question is this: "Are you strong enough to accept your mortality and eventual end of your existence or are you weak enough to put your faith into some arbitrary higher being and a life after death?" People believe in God and all that because they are afraid of nothingness after death - it's much more consoling to believe that you'll go to heaven, or even hell.

quote:"Of course it bothers all of us, whether we admit to it or not."

That's not true. That I will one day simply cease to exist doesn't bother me in the least; indeed I've come to think of it as a bit of a relief. I enjoy life, but if I lived forever I think I'd get sick of it eventually.

I am equally concerned about what happens metaphysically after death as I am about what happened metaphysically before my birth.

In other words I'm not concerned at all.

Death is an inevitability why should I fear an inevitability? The only thing I fear is the moments leading up to death.

To say you do not fear death is to say that you could look down the barrel of a gun without flinching. We might not fear it consciously, but the fear of death is innate in the human psyche. All conscious beings naturally fear death as part of their most basic instincts.

quote:Originally posted by BigRed11:

To say you do not fear death is to say that you could look down the barrel of a gun without flinching.

That's not what's being discussed here. Read the OP again and the responses. It's about what happens after death. Fearing someone pointing a gun at you is irrelevant.

quote:Originally posted by xray:

That's not what's being discussed here. Read the OP again and the responses. It's about what happens after death. Fearing someone pointing a gun at you is irrelevant.



I was replying to the posters above who said they are not afraid of death.

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing,

Personally, I don't think it does. You act like this "physical manifestation," is something without value or worth... yet our universe is nothing short of amazing. We DO live in a beautiful world... and the mere challange of extracting truth from THIS world, is enough to prove that we haven't outgrown our universe just yet.

I have much more power over my life and this world if I stand up and admit that this is IT. This is my playground... this is what I have to work with. I can see it all, because it's in front of me. I can touch it, because I'm standing on it. Imagine a world without theology. If it had not been for a handful of mythologies, long long ago... then what would possibly bother us the SLIGHTEST bit about living in this "physical manifestation."

The discomfort you seek so badly to extract from us, is a discomfort borne from your very own faith. Assuming you're Christian, (please DO correct me if I'm wrong)... it's your concept of heaven that automatically makes you think we're worshiping this "lesser world." It's your BELIEF in heaven that makes you assume this is the way we must feel. What you fail to realize however, is that without that mere belief, this is the only world that we get... the only world that matters to us!

If we were all given a choice to go to your Christian heaven, or live our short lives in this world... you'd be hard pressed to find anybody that would choose the life here. However it's your lack of evidence that turns me away. It's the abundance of evidence supporting the opposition. It's the contradictions. It's the countless times your church has been wrong... The countless times they fail to admit it. The way you treat those that are different than you. The way you draw evidence from a human made book.

If they both were true... I'd have to choose heaven. It's got a lot more promising me at the end of things. But I can't just let go of all logic because one end result seems more pleaseing, or is easier to accept! What a crime it would be, to ignore the realities of this world, in exchange for a fairy tale world that preaches eternal bliss.

You assuming we all must be miserable in the world that exists, is like proving creation with verses from the bible. It's logically flawed, and circular thinking/faith.



quote:

that the end nullifies all means, no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years, the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

Given my answers to your first question... do my beliefs not preach a much more life-affirming message than yours? This is my one shot at things... in this one world... and I've only got a numbered days of existance. My time here is short... without a doubt... but am I not given the oppurtunity to leave my mark in this world, and create my own meaning out of what I've got?

Are you saying that I have no ability to impact this world... or matter to those that'll live on, and those that I love? By loving another do I not give her joy? By sharing knowledge or educating others, do I not create memories and actions that may impact their lives? I have my chance to leave my mark on the people around me... who in time will leave their mark on new generations, over and over again. I have the ability to impact others... possibly even change their lives. Hell, even Christianity preaches this.

And you say my purpose here is to make my brain signals pleasing? Who are you to judge this?

As a whole, this is a meaningless world. We're a meaningless creature. We're NOT here for a reason, and our universe was far from created to fit our own needs. However with this, presumptiously pessemistic outlook... I am given the oppurtunity to do something beautiful. To create my own meaning... my own virtues and morals, a purpose for my own existance. I can lay out my future, and choose myself what to make of things. Existence preceeds Essence. We're not here to fullfill some "telos". We're each given the chance to find ourselves, find our true identitiy... and define our own meaning in this "physical manifestation" of a world.It's OUR individual consciousness that constructs these identities... and they're more accurate and personally fitting than following a book can ever possibly be. I'm given the abilities to think for myself, and in doing so string up a set of values that speak through MY conscious and not what's been crammed into me since birth.

And at the end of this, yes... I die. But let's just assume for a second that your church-given, hand-me-down beliefs are in fact wrong... You know, just like all the evidence points to. If you're dead and rotting in the ground just as much as I am... if you're just as souless as I am... Who really lived a life with more meaning? The person who looked inside themself... and time and time again became more understanding and more self aware? Or was it the person who lived their entire life on their knees, beckoning to the will of some giant organization who took four hundred years to admit that the earth was not in the center of the universe? Was it the person who created their own values and searched and found their own set of morals? Or was it the person that was tought since birth what's "right" and "wrong"... "good" and "evil" in order to reap the minds of the weak? Was it the person who took responsibility for his actions, and built his own path... or was it the person who blamed is mistakes on "God's master plan", and shortchanged his entire life in order to put on a blind fold and plunge into death with the promise of dumbfounded bliss?

And maybe you're right... maybe since we'll both be dead... we'll share just the same amount of meaning; in relation to our existance. Yet even in this case... who do you really think lived a more enjoyable life? Who do you think got the most out of it?

Let me ask you, does it make you uncomfortable knowing that when you die, you will have never met yourself?

I finish here, with a excerpt from one of the most groundbreaking and lifechanging books I have ever read. Not because "the gods created it" or because it was "handed down by the angels"... but because it speaks in sync with the truth:



Chapter 9-- The Preachers of Death.



There are preachers of death: and the earth is full of those to whom renunciation of life must be preached.

The earth is full of the superfluous; life is marred by the all-too-many. May they be tempted out of this life by the "life eternal"!

"The yellow ones": so are called the preachers of death, or "the black ones." But I will show them to you in still other colors.

There are the terrible ones who carry about in themselves the beast of prey, and have no choice except lusts or self-laceration. And even their lusts are self-laceration.

They have not yet become men, those terrible ones: may they preach renunciation of life, and pass away themselves!

There are the spiritually consumptive ones: hardly are they born when they begin to die, and long for doctrines of weariness and renunciation.

They would rather be dead, and we should welcome their wish! Let us beware of awakening those dead ones, and of damaging those living coffins!

They meet an invalid, or an old man, or a corpse- and immediately they say: "Life is refuted!"

But only they are refuted, and their eye, which sees only one facet of existence.

Shrouded in thick melancholy, and eager for the little casualties that bring death: thus do they wait, and clench their teeth.

Or else, they grasp at sweetmeats while mocking their childishness: they cling to their straw of life, and mock at their clinging.

Their wisdom speaks thus: "He who remains alive is a fool; but we are all such fools! And that is the most foolish thing in life!"

"Life is only suffering": say others, and do not lie. Then see to it that you cease! See to it that the life which is only suffering ceases!

And let this be the teaching of your virtue: "Thou shalt kill thyself! thou shalt steal away from thy life!"-

"Lust is sin,"- so say some who preach death- "let us go apart and beget no children!"

"Giving birth is troublesome,"- say others- "why still give birth? One bears only unfortunates!" And they also are preachers of death.

"Pity is necessary,"- so says a third party. "Take what I have! Take what I am! So much less does life bind me!"

If they were overflowing with pity, they would make their neighbors sick of life. To be evil- that would be their true goodness.

But they want to be rid of life; what do they care if they bind others tighter with their chains and gifts!-

And you also, to whom life is unending work and dissatisfaction, are you not very tired of life? Are you not very ripe for the sermon of death?

All you to whom unending work is dear, and all that is quick, new, and strange- you endure yourselves badly; your diligence is escape, and the will to forget yourself.

If you believed more in life, then would you fling yourselves less to the moment. But you do not have enough capacity for waiting- or even for idling!

Everywhere resounds the voices of those who preach death; and the earth is full of those to whom death must be preached.

Or "life eternal"; it is all the same to me- if only they pass away quickly!-



Thus spoke Zarathustra.





---- Friedrich Nietzsche

Kazz pretty much said everything I was thinking as I read through this thread, but I'll try to summarize in bullet points since the original poster likes short and to the point information. By the way, HT, short and sweet doesn't really work when you're trying to define meaning, life, and all of the things you are asking of us.

life has no inherited meaning, and there is no afterlife.

because life is void of meaning given to us we must create it, and since there is no afterlife life is very important.

free to create meaning it is a moral responsibility to not take life for granted

not taking life for granted and delegating meaning to a possible afterlife creates an intellectual integrity as, through realizing one's mortality and that we aren't God's special children, we have to take care of life because nobody is going to save us from our fuckups.

This is motivation to create a better life for you and your loved ones, as well as taking it upon yourself to make sure the world is still around when you're gone.

God will not take care of your children, or your children's children, etc. so if you want them to have a happy earth to live on it's up to you

any kind of "immortality" is thus reached through your interaction with others, and the impressions you leave on life because life will go on without you.

I will die, and life will go on, but that does not mean that my stay here was any less meaningful than if I went to heaven/hell

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing, that the end nullifies all means, no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years, the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

It's only accepting reality. And you get to laugh at the dumbasses that think their "soul" will go to "Heaven" when they die.

not to be an arrogant asshole here but



BA BAM!

-looks like the op just got pwned here from the last few threads*

:P -and no i have nothing to contribute,atm i am mentally exhausted and felt relatively impressed by the last few replys to post this

quote:Originally posted by devilsadvocate:

not to be an arrogant asshole here but



BA BAM!

-looks like the op just got pwned here from the last few threads*

:P -and no i have nothing to contribute,atm i am mentally exhausted and felt relatively impressed by the last few replys to post this

Tis, Okay... For I have done enough impressing for the both of us. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

*puts out nipples which were clearly on fire*

Nope.

Sometimes, yeah, I dwell on things like that.

But then I realize having no afterlife makes this life infinitely more valuable. And I think of how lucky I am to be experiencing life, how beautiful things can be, how the human mind can bloom some incredibly revolutionary ideas and concepts.. and well, I guess what I'm saying is it really makes me appreciate this life all the more.

yea, it sometimes gets to me,but i relize that the only things that matter are what i do now,and its not like ill know im dead.

If you have children, your genes will live on. If you have great ideas, they will live on. Thus, what we do in our life does matter.

People that aren't religious can have a purpose beyond themselves, and if not beyond themselves they can still have a purpose beyond pleasure. The assumptions behind the original post are false.

I think atheism can causes serious depression in people.

After i affirmed to myself mentally that i was an atheist, i was hit by was i could only assume to be depression.

Tired of being only 5-7% of the population, surrounded by peope who hated my beliefs, etc... thinking about what if my life ended tomorrow.

I realize now that if more people were atheists and the right mindset were put into society, people would be spending their lives trying to accomplish GREAT things, as to be always remembered. The only downside, is that by GREAT, i can neither affirm if they would be bad actions (such as remember me for i killed the most) or good actions (i helped explore space).

quote:Originally posted by Hill Troll:

Serious question. Does it ever bother you that beyond this physical manifestation, there is nothing, that the end nullifies all means, no matter what you choose to do, it won't matter to you or anyone in a couple of years, the only purpose you can have in your life is to make sure the signals sent to your brain will seem pleasing?

I could be a jerkass and respond with a simple "no", but you asked a legit question.

Frankly, no. It doesn't bother me. Quite the opposite, it comforts me. In the end, this all wasn't some kind of test. No one will care when I die, and the universe will move on. Eventually, it will be as if I never even existed.

This is all I've got. And I plan to use it.

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:

After i affirmed to myself mentally that i was an atheist, i was hit by was i could only assume to be depression.

Tired of being only 5-7% of the population, surrounded by peope who hated my beliefs, etc...

Sounds more like you're suffering from Opression, not depression.

Does oppression lead to depression?

mayhap, but having a serious palavar with oneself about death and etc.. can be unsettling.

Why would I worry about the fact that there is nothing after life? I'll have no thoughts, no feelings, no emotion and no awareness.

The basis of this sort of worry is existence. As soon as we cease to exist we will stop being bothered by the fact that there is nothing after life. So why would should I fill my mind with pointless negative thoughts? I'll make the most of my existence while I can.

When I die, I'll be the only one that doesn't know it.

quote:Originally posted by fungo:

Why would I worry about the fact that there is nothing after life? I'll have no thoughts, no feelings, no emotion and no awareness.

The basis of this sort of worry is existence. As soon as we cease to exist we will stop being bothered by the fact that there is nothing after life. So why would should I fill my mind with pointless negative thoughts? I'll make the most of my existence while I can.

When I die, I'll be the only one that doesn't know it.

good way to put it, i'll keep that in mind.