Ok to everyone i would love for someone to try and prove me wrong(you wont)

1) God does not cause evil, the Devil does.

OK, this one is perhaps the stupidest one. If you believe the Devil is capable of subverting God's will and causing evil, then you believe that the Devil is as powerful as God, and you shouldn't call yourself a monotheist. Plus, if the Devil can do whatever he wishes despite God's will, then God is not all powerful. Therefore this argument doesn't fly,

2) God is all good, evil comes from man's free choice.

I don't buy this one either. God created everything (according to the religious people). Therefore, he must have created both humans and free will. Now why would he create free will if he knew some men would choose evil? You might say that evil people turn away from God, so he has no responsibility towards them. Ok, fine. But what about the innocent, good people that are harmed by the evil people? Doesnt God care? Of course not, because he doesnt exist.

3) Evil exists in the world for reasons we don't and CAN'T understand. God's reasons are unknowable because we are mere puny humans.

This is probably the best reason, but I still don't buy it. According to this statement, you are supposed to just accept evil because you trust that god has a reason for it. Now, I simply can't accept this. Why would God give us intelligence if we weren't meant to use it? If God simply intended for us to be herded around like sheep, why didn't he make us sheep? The answer, of course, is that God did not make us, because he does not exist.

While I agree that a lot of the stories/explanations associated with Christianity are difficult to accept as being true, I don't think you should dismiss the entire religion.

OP, your points are well taken.

Christianity is 1) a religion of fear and denial, and 2) based on Piscean Age metaphysics.

You can do better than that.

quote:Originally posted by Cave Troll:

You can do better than that.

You can't.

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

You can't.

I can try. God is omnipotent, thus he must be prefect. Man is made in God's image. Man is not perfect.

Islam= Christianity V2

quote:Originally posted by El_Muncher:

Ok to everyone i would love for someone to try and prove me wrong(you wont)

1) God does not cause evil, the Devil does.

OK, this one is perhaps the stupidest one. If you believe the Devil is capable of subverting God's will and causing evil, then you believe that the Devil is as powerful as God, and you shouldn't call yourself a monotheist. Plus, if the Devil can do whatever he wishes despite God's will, then God is not all powerful. Therefore this argument doesn't fly,

Satan acting on his own volition has nothing to do with God's omnipotence or lack thereof.

2) God is all good, evil comes from man's free choice.

I don't buy this one either. God created everything (according to the religious people). Therefore, he must have created both humans and free will. Now why would he create free will if he knew some men would choose evil? You might say that evil people turn away from God, so he has no responsibility towards them. Ok, fine. But what about the innocent, good people that are harmed by the evil people? Doesnt God care? Of course not, because he doesnt exist.

Emotional sensationalism and reactionism are not proper reasoning for denying the existence of God.

3) Evil exists in the world for reasons we don't and CAN'T understand. God's reasons are unknowable because we are mere puny humans.

This is probably the best reason, but I still don't buy it. According to this statement, you are supposed to just accept evil because you trust that god has a reason for it. Now, I simply can't accept this. Why would God give us intelligence if we weren't meant to use it? If God simply intended for us to be herded around like sheep, why didn't he make us sheep? The answer, of course, is that God did not make us, because he does not exist. [/B]

You seriously fail at understanding anything about Christianity, therefore you ought not make any sort of judgements on it.

Not to mention the jawesome use of tautolism at the end.

success.

Next mission - Islam

Why? Because once everybody realizes Christianity is a crock of shit we don't need them turning to Islam.

quote:Satan acting on his own volition has nothing to do with God's omnipotence or lack thereof.

you contradicted yourself if god existed he wants us all to go to heaven or at least to be good people he would not let so called satan use his power to make us sin he would have control of him unless of course there evenly matched

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

just got this offa website i dont take credit its by villegas at yahoo



Unfortunately most Christians are extremely ignorant about things related to their own religious beliefs and because of this they have very misguided ideas about what it means to believe in god and what "faith" is. I know this very well having been a Christian for many years. I attended Christian Theology school and one thing I quickly realized is how ignorant Christians are when it comes to the book they so dearly love--the Bible. (despite the fact that they claim to cherish the bible 99% of all christians have never even read the entire bible from start to finish)

In my opinion not only is it OK to question Gods existence and the validity of Christianity, I think it is NECESSARY and I think that the Christian God encourages this type of questioning.

When you study the old testament there are countless examples of God performing miracles in order to PROVE that he was the true and only god. Any person who has actually studied the bible would recognize this and therefore the idea that it is WRONG to question gods existence is foolish since the God of the bible himself thought it necessary to demonstrate evidence for his own existence and superiority over the pagan gods.

quote:Originally posted by El_Muncher:

just got this offa website i dont take credit its by villegas at yahoo



Unfortunately most Christians are extremely ignorant about things related to their own religious beliefs and because of this they have very misguided ideas about what it means to believe in god and what "faith" is. I know this very well having been a Christian for many years. I attended Christian Theology school and one thing I quickly realized is how ignorant Christians are when it comes to the book they so dearly love--the Bible. (despite the fact that they claim to cherish the bible 99% of all christians have never even read the entire bible from start to finish)

In my opinion not only is it OK to question Gods existence and the validity of Christianity, I think it is NECESSARY and I think that the Christian God encourages this type of questioning.

When you study the old testament there are countless examples of God performing miracles in order to PROVE that he was the true and only god. Any person who has actually studied the bible would recognize this and therefore the idea that it is WRONG to question gods existence is foolish since the God of the bible himself thought it necessary to demonstrate evidence for his own existence and superiority over the pagan gods.

........so your point is what?... Are you telling me you are to question authority to make sure it is valid? The Christian life demands you know who God is. Faith is not hope. You certainly hope that you dont die in your sleep.

Faith by Christian definition is "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen."

Why do you post these things which you have no clue as to the meaning yet I have known them for years? Lemme guess, you saw that most Christians have little clue as to the working of their religion and then posted it as if I was one of them? You are sadly mistaken and you will not win this.

quote: you contradicted yourself if god existed he wants us all to go to heaven or at least to be good people he would not let so called satan use his power to make us sin

Why? Are you God? Are you closer to God than I am? What religion do you have? I need to get some of that since you seen to be able to talk directly with God and have insighht as to his thinking... http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

You assume far too much. God not only gave man a choice whether to do right or wrong, he gave Satan the choice as well.

You probably never heard of this, but Satan was once the "keeper of God's righteousness"; the greatest of angels. He was obviously created with free will because he sinned along with other angels. Some angels did not side with Satan, so you can infer angels have the ability to choose between right and wrong.

What you seem to be unable to comprehend is that God isnt in any hurry and Satan will be taken care of at the end of time. Satan hasnt gotten away with anything.

Without the challenge of sin, there is no choice; no free will. What is so hard about this that you fail to comprehend? Premature conclusions getting in the way of reasoning?

You don't have to waste your time disproving christianity - it disproves itself. It's entire support structure is an old book, and some very questionable anecdotal evidence.

quote:Ezekiel 28:14-16 says "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

Lucifer, or Satan, was not a human being, but a created being. He was one of God's first creations, his angels. He was narcissistic and wanted as much power as God had, if not more. That is because Lucifer was created with free will as well. So Lucifer was banished from the Kingdom of Heaven and he has since then done everything in his power to create evil in the world and turn people away from God.

Men have the will to either give into temptation or to refuse Satan. For example, a serial killer kills because he chooses to. He does not have to kill, but he is filled with hate and anger, most of the time because he himself had a terrible childhood/adulthood. It is an endless cycle of people hurting people in one way or another. The only way to remove yourself from this cycle is to do good and follow the true wisdom of your heart. No one believes that it is right to kill, they can justify it, but they know that it is wrong none the less. That is will.

quote:Jeremiah 1:19 says "'They will fight against you but will not overcome you, for I am with you and will rescue you,' declares the Lord."

As for the innocent hurt by the evil around them, that is not God's wish. God does not hurt them, evil does.



Evil is the absence of goodness. Somehow in our freedom, we are able to make goodness absent just as God gave us the power to distinguish God's presence and absence on purpose.

[This message has been edited by Guildenstern (edited 02-21-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by BigRed11:

You don't have to waste your time disproving christianity - it disproves itself. It's entire support structure is an old book, and some very questionable anecdotal evidence.

Note to self: Plato, Draco, et al did not exist.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Note to self: Plato, Draco, et al did not exist.

The difference? "Plato, Draco, et al" were all well known figures mentioned by many other contemporary sources. Where are the contemporary sources for Abraham, Moses, or even Jesus? I defy you to show me even one.

It would be more accurate to use names like Achilles and Agamemnon (people written about long after they were said to have existed, although they probably never did), but that wouldn't really fit your argument well.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

success.

Next mission - Islam

Why? Because once everybody realizes Christianity is a crock of shit we don't need them turning to Islam.

fail

Kykeon is right. There's more evidence for the existence of Socrates than for the existence of Jesus, yet scholars doubt his existence.

The biggest thing about any religion is obviously faith. It really can be a waste of time to try and debate this stuff in a scientific or logical way. If there's a god and he's totally supernatural and omnipotent, then we can't prove his existence through human processes, so it's just a waste of time. Hypotheticals are just as annoying. Stuff like , "Why do babies die? If God was loving, he wouldn't let that happen." or "God wants everybody to go to heaven, right? So why are there unbelievers?" Again, if there is a god who is totally powerful, then we can't even think on his same wavelength, so all these questions are really dumb. As I said in the beginning, it's all about faith. One's god is as real as his faith in that god. No god or religion in the history of man has been "proven" through any scientific/logical means. But a huge amount of people have believed and continue to believe in tons of different gods/religions. Bottom line: it's not about carbon dating, historical documentation and human logic. Without faith, belief in any god is impossible.

Your points say very little about the title, I mean to say, you've really just made a rubuttal to Christian ethics. In fact, your entire thread is useless, unless you change the title.

Also, you're making no new ground here at all, I hear all this in GCSE religious education, and the standard "write this on an exam paper, i'll give you the marks" responses are:

1) I like your idea of a God being omnipotent 'by definition' and therefore if god is not omnipotent, He doesn't exist, nuless you re-brand him as something not omnipotent. But this is more of a "straw man argument" (that's As level philosophy http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)) which means that you're really arguing against a point very few christians have made.

2) standard response: God is trancendant. He doens't care what happens on earth, he just made the universe and fucked off to some other dimension.

3) I think that this point is BY DEFINITION unprovable either way. It's a tautoligy; because of couse, we can't prove it, if we don't know anything about it, if our understanding is so small.

[This message has been edited by Leeroy (edited 02-24-2007).]

One word, Mithraism

You can't really prove that god dosn't exist, just like you can't prove alien exist, or god dosn't exist. It's more of a commen sense thing, that god is not what most religions put it out to be.

[This message has been edited by Dragon Slayer (edited 02-25-2007).]

A personal favorite is the catch 22 about Jesus' teachings. In the Sermon on the Mound, he emphasizes humility above all else.

The ultimate contradiction, then, is that if Jesus were divine and truly believed in humility, would God be so humbled by his creation of humanity that there would be no need to intervene with us? None the less to assert his/her own values. 'Tis something to ponder.

Ignored argon's post*sorry dude,you come off sounding all fundie like,ewww*



god is all knowing.omnipotent.thErefore would have seen lucifer's uprising.therefore woulD have knowwn about it,would have been able to do something about it,DIDN'T,allowed evil to come into creation.

THEREFORE EVIL IS THE CREATION OF GOD.AND IF GOD ENCOMPASSESES ALL OF OUR ASPECTS IN THEIR MOST PURE FORMS(i am pure good,pure love,the pure trinity),GOD IN ITSELF IS AN EVIL MALIGNENET BEING

WHY NO ONE EVER POINTS THIS OUT BOGGLES ME.

What boggles my mind is why anyone would think the laws God created are not arbitrary. God can easily be proven as all-knowing and all-powerful, right? Because both these things are measurable. But he is perfectly good, according to whom?

To quote Socrates: “Does God say something is good because it is good in itself, or is it good because God says it is good?” It evidently has to be the latter, otherwise God wouldn’t have made it.

So it is quite easy so say God is good via his definition, but it’s really a pointless definition and they’re nothing but a bunch of commands.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:



What you seem to be unable to comprehend is that my religion is full of shit,and my "god" must be really bored/sick in the head if he wanted to do all thi9s shit.he's really fucked,goddamn did he hate job that jew nigger,and yes im sure my plkace in his own personal HELL will be reserved with a place marked"for argonplasma"

i just need something to believe in ,because i'm scared,like all of us.and we all need to believe in stories.



fixed.

God didn’t hate Job, midgeymonkey2, he merely wanted to use him to prove a point to Satan because he is egomaniacal.

Agreed.given,i'd be pretty fucking egomaniacal if was god but:P

If God is the perfection of all the good human traits,then he must be thr perfection of forgiveness.

If he is the perfection of forgiveness,he would not send ANYONE to hell,as he would forgive them unconditionally,not unlike a puppy.

A Father will forgive his son a million times before rejecting him.My Father has done so to me,i have hurt Him numerous times,and he has given me chance and chance again.



If one were a perfection of compassion/Forgiveness,would HE not forgive a billion times more,and not scare us with the threat of a hell?there would be no hell,and this is what leads me to beleieve there is no true"free will".

Since we're talking about Job, which is OT, where exactly does the OT state that God is the perfection of all "good" human traits?

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

What boggles my mind is why anyone would think the laws God created are not arbitrary. God can easily be proven as all-knowing and all-powerful, right? Because both these things are measurable. But he is perfectly good, according to whom?

To quote Socrates: “Does God say something is good because it is good in itself, or is it good because God says it is good?” It evidently has to be the latter, otherwise God wouldn’t have made it.

So it is quite easy so say God is good via his definition, but it’s really a pointless definition and they’re nothing but a bunch of commands.

Hi Hare_Geist,

Sew Crates [sic.. i liked Bill and Ted] got it wrong.

If a perfect being is perfect, and that perfect being called something good, it can be nothing less than good (by definition of a perfect being... unless, of course, lying is 'good'... which, if lying is 'good' truth become arbitrary... which becomes self-defeating i.e. if the proposition "lying is good" is true then is that proposition a lie or the truth?

johnny

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Without the challenge of sin, there is no choice; no free will. What is so hard about this that you fail to comprehend?

Your God is omnipotent. He must have a way to give us free will without sin. If he was real he could have an infinite way to do just that infact.

[This message has been edited by Aseren (edited 02-25-2007).]

quote:If a perfect being is perfect, and that perfect being called something good, it can be nothing less than good (by definition of a perfect being... unless, of course, lying is 'good'... which, if lying is 'good' truth become arbitrary... which becomes self-defeating i.e. if the proposition "lying is good" is true then is that proposition a lie or the truth?

You can be all-knowing and all-powerful and still be a "shit". All-knowing implies knowing everything, that doesn't mean there's an 'absolute' morality; God could know there's not an absolute morality. All-powerful implies just that: being the most powerful being in the world. You can be all powerful and not morally absolute.

But morally perfect? Morally perfect according to who? According to you? Oh, according to God. Well, just because God says so, doesn't mean it's true. You're just taking his word for it. Hence faith in God being "supremely good". He can easily defy logic, since he is all-powerful and the creator of everything including logic, so he can trick you with that logical trick into believing he is all good.

PS, please don't do the whole "hi, Hare_Geist" thing, it makes me cringe. No offence. I'm trying to say this as nicely as possible... it's just, it feels so fake.

PS2, Socrates got nothing wrong. He merely asked a question. How can asking a question be getting something wrong?



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 02-25-2007).]

My posts in this thread have made me think: if I were to believe in a God, I would be a strict fideist.

Hi midgeymonkey2,



QUOTE Originally posted by midgeymonkey2:

If God is the perfection of all the good human traits,then he must be thr perfection of forgiveness.

I think i see where you are coming from.. however, is the set "the perfection of all the good human traits" the complete set of God's traits?... but isnt another good trait (that goes hand-in-hand with 'forgiveness') 'justice'?... if there were no 'justice;, then what is 'forgiveness'? How does one distiguish something is forgiven if justice is not an equally good trait?.... you kinda answered that later on in your post, namely "there would be no hell".... but that only answers it from a human perspective, not from God's because he would know that we have violated Him or violated 'good', else then, "forgive what?" (even with humanly forgiveness, there has to be a 'good' and a 'bad' in order to distinguish that something has been violated in order to forgive)

If he is the perfection of forgiveness,he would not send ANYONE to hell,as he would forgive them unconditionally,not unlike a puppy.

Hmmm... i think that is the first time i've seen God equated to a puppy.

Does a puppy always know that it has been violated... here is an example.. let's suppose new young puppy pees on the floor. Owner swats puppy's butt w/ newspaper and puts puppy outside. Does the puppy think it was a bad thing to get spanked and put out of the house?.. probably. Should the owner have "just forgiven the piss on the rug"?

Only if he doesnt care that his house stinks.

A Father will forgive his son a million times before rejecting him.My Father has done so to me,i have hurt Him numerous times,and he has given me chance and chance again.

i think this is a better analogy. And while you are still alive, you still have the chance to be Forgiven.

The other thing i'd like to add to your analogy is that even with you and your dad, there are things that are 'good' and 'bad' otherwise, what is he forgiving you of?

Now, let's say that there is something that your dad knows to be unforgivable... i dont know, maybe "lskhjt-ing a wafsdgl".

Now, lskhjt-ing a wafsdgl is wrong whether you are aware of it or not... ignorance of the law is no excuse. Now, your dad, being the loving and forgiving dad he is, wants to be able to forgive you, but once you've lskhjt-ed you are a lskhjt-er and (again) it is unforgivable. If your dad does not punish you for this, then either he is not Just or lskhjt-ing is not unforgivable or your dad's knowledge is incorrect.

Well, dad's are always right.. or is that moms? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

If he's always right, and he knows that "lskhjt-ing a wafsdgl" is unforgivable, then the only thing left (or so it would seem) is that he has to punish.... (just so that we are aware, in this analogy, your dad IS NOT the Omniscient, Eternal Creator God... he is just a super dad, ok?... i dont feel like getting into a 3 month long discussion on the deductive PoE, so i'm keeping this short and sweet).

I said, "or so it would seem".. there is the another option.. that since your dad is blameless (i.e. he is not a "lskhjt-er of a wafsdgl") his justice could include, since he loves you and wants to forgive you, serving your sentence in your place... on the condition that you accept his way of forgiving (which would entail the fact that you realised that "lskhjt-ing a wafsdgl" is unforgivable) you and that you trust him that it is the only way you can be forgiven (remember, your dad is a pretty smart guy).

Sorry if this is too watered down for you.. it was more for my laziness sake than anything else... like i said, i dont want to be in another 3 month discussion.

If one were a perfection of compassion/Forgiveness,would HE not forgive a billion times more,and not scare us with the threat of a hell?there would be no hell,and this is what leads me to beleieve there is no true"free will".

I'm not sure i follow you on the "no true free will", except that if you mean that it is another part to the arguement against the PoE.

If you are saying that there is "no true free will" reguardless of God's existance, then what is your point? That would mean that you didnt even choose to start this thread... it just happened... due to random laws of physics randomly causing the big bang and randomly causing abiogenisis and randomly causing evolution, which in turn randomly caused your thoughts and mine and so on....

But even given all of this (e.g. random, free will-lessness), with the existance of God being true, then there is nothing to be guiltly of, thus, nothing to be forgiven of.... but that includes your story of you and your dad :

quote:A Father will forgive his son a million times before rejecting him.My Father has done so to me,i have hurt Him numerous times,and he has given me chance and chance again

If all things are really a process of the Laws of Physics (notice, i didnt use "random"), then there was no other way things could turn out... you didnt hurt your dad, so there was nothing for him to forgive.... no one ever hurt you, so there is nothing for you to forgive or want justice (whatever the case)... which makes one question, "why do we feel guilty for things?".. guilt should be in opposition of your "no true free will".

God Bless,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You can be all-knowing and all-powerful and still be a "shit". All-knowing implies knowing everything, that doesn't mean there's an 'absolute' morality

No, you can't. If you're all-knowing and all-powerful then you SET morality. And as a perfect creature, why would you set anything less then perfect. That means either perfectly good, or perfectly evil. And according to Christians, he is all loving.

This is far from a perfectly good world, there is crime, corruption, diseases. Why do those things exist, why would an all-loving god allow for this to happen?

Free will?

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

Your God is omnipotent. He must have a way to give us free will without sin. If he was real he could have an infinite way to do just that infact.

I agree with you, Aseren, if you want to shackle God to logic.

PS, please don't do the whole "hi, Hare_Geist" thing, it makes me cringe. No offence. I'm trying to say this as nicely as possible... it's just, it feels so fake.

Fair enough. I'll try to keep it in mind when addressing you.

How does "Howdy; Aloha; Greetings; Ahoy; Falicitous Salutations (ok, i wont use that one cuz i'd have to see if i spelled it right and cuz it's too long); or just plain "hello" ".....

Sorry, just teasing... but i didnt think a simple "hi" could be offensive or fake.

QUOTE Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You can be all-knowing and all-powerful and still be a "shit".

Sure, and that is why i used "perfect being"

And if a perfect being declared something good, it can not be anything other than good. If it were, that perfect being would not be perfect.

All-knowing implies knowing everything, that doesn't mean there's an 'absolute' morality;

Wouldn't "knowing everything" include knowing what is 'good' or 'bad' or anything inbetween?... which implies an 'absolute morality'

God could know there's not an absolute morality.

Irrelevant.

All you are saying in this, is that you and i are not God... that our knowledge is limited... which i already knew about myself and suspected about other folks.

All-powerful implies just that: being the most powerful being in the world. You can be all powerful and not morally absolute.

Again, which is why i said, "perfect being".

Your statement, "in the world", is a limiting statement that indirectly denies both an "All-powerful being" and a "perfect being"... it doesnt really matter right now, in this particular discussion, but it is a very important piece of information in other discussions (God's perfection; and Plato's "ideas of the Good, the True...")

It ("in the world") is even limiting if used in the philosophical form, to mean "the whole universe", since the God of the Bible is not limited to "inside the box" since He Created the "box".

But morally perfect? Morally perfect according to who? According to you? Oh, according to God.

A perfect being is perfect by it's very definition... which includes perfect morality... if it had less than perfect morality, it would not be a perfect being.

Well, just because God says so, doesn't mean it's true.

If God is a perfect being then yes, because He says so does mean it's true.

And there could only be one perfect being, because if there were two gods that differed on even the smallest point, there are only two possibilities... either:

1)one of them could not be perfect

or

2)both are not perfect

You're just taking his word for it.

And who's word are you taking, that He isnt The Perfect Being?

He can easily defy logic, since he is all-powerful and the creator of everything including logic, so he can trick you with that logical trick into believing he is all good.

Let's back up for a bit, shall we?

This statement still stands and is very relevant to what you just said:

If a perfect being is perfect, and that perfect being called something good, it can be nothing less than good (by definition of a perfect being... unless, of course, lying is 'good'... which, if lying is 'good' truth become arbitrary... which becomes self-defeating i.e. if the proposition "lying is good" is true then is that proposition a lie or the truth?

OK, now let's move ahead.

You claim that it is possible for God to defy logic, right?....

First of all, by what logic do you appeal to, that can show which one of us (you or me)has been tricked? That very logic would have to be higher than the logic that God used in His supposed "trickery".... but that would make even the very logic that you are trying to appeal to, subjective at best and arbitrary or false in the worst... it seems as though you are going down the wrong path here, so let's try a different approach.

Let's ask this question...

According to the Bible, are there things that even the Omnipotent, Omniscient, Loving and Just God can not do?

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

In vs. 13 God can not swear by a being greater than Himself... there are only two possibilities.... either He does not exist OR there is no being greater than God.

In verse 18, God can not lie. (again, there are only two possibilities; either God does not exist or this verse is True.) And just like i pointed out earlier, "if the proposition "lying is good" is true then is that proposition a lie or the truth".

These two verses are saying that God can not violate the Law of Non-contradiction and they are also implying that there are absolutes to Truth (and by contrast, non-Truth).

I'm not going to go any further on this, right now, since i've gotta get some gas for work and then i'm going to play abit of Medival Total War II before my wife gets home from work and we watch a movie.

PS2, Socrates got nothing wrong. He merely asked a question. How can asking a question be getting something wrong?

Ya, sorry bout that.. i didnt notice where your quotation marks ended.

God Bless,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

I agree with you, Aseren, if you want to shackle God to logic.

Yeah, logic is silly, lol.

quote:Originally posted by midgeymonkey2:

Ignored argon's post*sorry dude,you come off sounding all fundie like,ewww*



god is all knowing.omnipotent.thErefore would have seen lucifer's uprising.therefore woulD have knowwn about it,would have been able to do something about it,DIDN'T,allowed evil to come into creation.

THEREFORE EVIL IS THE CREATION OF GOD.AND IF GOD ENCOMPASSESES ALL OF OUR ASPECTS IN THEIR MOST PURE FORMS(i am pure good,pure love,the pure trinity),GOD IN ITSELF IS AN EVIL MALIGNENET BEING

WHY NO ONE EVER POINTS THIS OUT BOGGLES ME.

I am glad you admit that you have absolutely nothing to back up any of your claims.

Omg, fundy! Run! http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

Your God is omnipotent. He must have a way to give us free will without sin. If he was real he could have an infinite way to do just that infact.



Because then it wouldnt be free will. If God does something extraordinary to shoo Eve away from the tree, thats not free will, now is it?

quote:Irrelevant.

All you are saying in this, is that you and i are not God... that our knowledge is limited... which i already knew about myself and suspected about other folks.

No, it is not irrelevant, because it is possible that there is no morality and God knows this. You have to look at all possibilities, not jump to the conclusion that there is a morality.

quote:If God is a perfect being then yes, because He says so does mean it's true.

Then you have a problem on your hands, what with the contradictions in what God said in the old testament, and with all the contradictions in the teachings of Jesus.

quote:And who's word are you taking, that He isnt The Perfect Being?

I’m suspicious of a perfect God who drowns people in a world-flood and goes on massacres, yet tells his people murder is wrong.

quote:First of all, by what logic do you appeal to, that can show which one of us (you or me)has been tricked? That very logic would have to be higher than the logic that God used in His supposed "trickery".... but that would make even the very logic that you are trying to appeal to, subjective at best and arbitrary or false in the worst... it seems as though you are going down the wrong path here, so let's try a different approach.

You don’t seem to understand what I am arguing. I’m showing that it requires faith to believe God is morally good and that he shouldn’t be shackled to logic. If all-powerful and the creator of everything, he can break free of logic, implying he is not within logic, therefore I have no logic to appeal to which shall show which one of us has been tricked. Therefore, it is an act of faith to believe a God that gave permission to Satan to murder Job’s family and drowned little babies in the flood is supremely good.

Since God is outside of the box, therefore being outside of all logic, he can manipulate the box. However, of course, since he is outside logic, he can make it so he is "good" even though he drowned little babies... in my opinion, however, that would make him quite a screwed up being.

As for your Bible quotes, they are once again an article of faith. Faith that God isn't lying to you. Faith that the logic God invented applies to not only the world he made, but to him too.

I’m not saying faith is bad, by the way. Even though I am an atheist, I am tired of people chaining this being to the very thing he invented: logic.

It is only by throwing logic out of the window, that all things become possible.





[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 02-26-2007).]

quote:Because then it wouldnt be free will. If God does something extraordinary to shoo Eve away from the tree, thats not free will, now is it?

If God is outside of the box and is all-powerful, therefore making it possible for him to manipulate the box in whatever way manageable, then he can make a world void of evil and yet still filled with beings who have freewill.

Hare_Geist:

No, it is not irrelevant, because it is possible that there is no morality and God knows this. You have to look at all possibilities, not jump to the conclusion that there is a morality.

Yes, in your arguement, there is the possibility that an all-knowing and all-powerful being could know there is no moral absolute and "trick" us with logic, i.e. lie, but still be less than perfect.



But, a perfect being would also have the traits of all-knowing and all-powerful... any thing less in those catagories would mean that that being was less than perfect.

Anything a perfect being does, thinks, or states is perfect... if it were not, then that being would also be less than perfect.

If a perfect being states something is good, based on that being's perfect knowledge, that something would be nothing shy of good. A perfect being can not lie, unless, like i said before, lying is good... but again, would that proposition be a lie or the truth?

Then you have a problem on your hands, what with the contradictions in what God said in the old testament, and with all the contradictions in the teachings of Jesus.

Before we go into this, let me ask you if you are refering to contradictions that you found on your own, or ones that were pointed out to you .. and you "varified"?

Your answer to this does not mean that there are or are not contradictions. I just asking so that i might have an idea of your background and how you came to that/those conclusion(s). I've been thinking of using a different approach to this, than i have in the past, and i'm trying to decide whether or not to try this approach with you, especially since you said that "You have to look at all possibilities, not jump to the conclusion....". Dont worry, if i think that this approach might be worth our while, i wont try to trick you. I'll let you know what's up, and leave it to you to decide if you want to go through with it too. (and bear in mind, my first intentional attempt at positive apologetics was a dismal failure, so this might be just as terrible.. )

I’m suspicious of a perfect God who drowns people in a world-flood and goes on massacres, yet tells his people murder is wrong.

That's a fair enough answer. I can assume then, that you mean that it is your own word that you are taking, correct? (it is a fair enough answer, i'm just making sure i am understanding you)



quote: xtreem:

First of all, by what logic do you appeal to, that can show which one of us (you or me)has been tricked? That very logic would have to be higher than the logic that God used in His supposed "trickery".... but that would make even the very logic that you are trying to appeal to, subjective at best and arbitrary or false in the worst... it seems as though you are going down the wrong path here, so let's try a different approach.



Hare_Giest:

You don’t seem to understand what I am arguing. I’m showing that it requires faith to believe God is morally good and that he shouldn’t be shackled to logic. If all-powerful and the creator of everything, he can break free of logic, implying he is not within logic, therefore I have no logic to appeal to which shall show which one of us has been tricked. Therefore, it is an act of faith to believe a God that gave permission to Satan to murder Job’s family and drowned little babies in the flood is supremely good.

I'm going to set this one aside for now. If our conversation does not end up satisfying you by answering this indirectly, then please remind me.. among other things, i think this might be a whole thread by itself.

And to the OP, my apologies for the thread derailment, but thank you for your patience and tolerance.

Since God is outside of the box, therefore being outside of all logic, he can manipulate the box. However, of course, since he is outside logic, he can make it so he is "good" even though he drowned little babies... in my opinion, however, that would make him quite a screwed up being.

As for your Bible quotes, they are once again an article of faith. Faith that God isn't lying to you. Faith that the logic God invented applies to not only the world he made, but to him too.

I’m not saying faith is bad, by the way. Even though I am an atheist, I am tired of people chaining this being to the very thing he invented: logic.

It is only by throwing logic out of the window, that all things become possible.





Until we make some head way on the "perfect being/moral absolute" atleast, and maybe even alittle into contradictions, this last section will be just more of the same betwix us.

Have a good night,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

If God is outside of the box and is all-powerful, therefore making it possible for him to manipulate the box in whatever way manageable, then he can make a world void of evil and yet still filled with beings who have freewill.

Exactly, there is nothing you can say to this ArgonPlasma2000. You can come up with all the idea's and arguments you want, but if your God is truly all-powerful then he must have a way, infact, an infinite ways.

So, conclusion..

Your God is either not all-loving, or not all-powerful.

[This message has been edited by Aseren (edited 02-27-2007).]

quote:I'm going to set this one aside for now.

quote:Until we make some head way on the "perfect being/moral absolute" atleast, and maybe even alittle into contradictions, this last section will be just more of the same betwix us.

No, I feel you are not answering the question because you cannot and don't want to accept the fact that you simply have to have faith that God is supremely good and not tricking you with logic.

I repeat it once again: if God is all-powerful, therefore being able to do anything, and is the creator of everything, therefore being the creator of all logic, then he stands outside of logic as well as all of the universe. Therefore, all things are possible for God and he can just as easily make white black as he can trick you for his own amusement. You simply have to have faith that he is not doing this. You simply have to have faith that He is not so perfectly powerful, that he has the power, the ability, to say imperfect things. But of course, to do this is to restrain God's all-powerfulness, which is a no, no.

And remember, the Bible requires absolute faith too then, because he can be tricking you with that as well. So you can't get out of this argument using Bible passages.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 02-27-2007).]

If I remember correctly, you used a similar argument in a thread where a poster asked: “if God can do anything, then can he make a boulder so heavy that he cannot lift it?” Of course, either he can or cannot do that and is trapped by logic, the very thing he himself created, or he is outside of logic and can in fact do both. I seem to remember you saying the latter, which would support my argument.

Correct me if I’m wrong, though.

How can god be outside of logic.

He created us in his own image. Therefor we should share the same logic.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

He created us in his own image. Therefor we should share the same logic.

quote:And remember, the Bible requires absolute faith too then, because he can be tricking you with that as well. So you can't get out of this argument using Bible passages.

I'll be making a thread about this in Humanities, if you wish to wait and reply there. The idea of an all-powerful is deceiver is bothering me too.

I'll edit this post to provide the link to the page once I have written it.

Just curious, Hare_Geist - but why Humanities?

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Just curious, Hare_Geist - but why Humanities?

Because the post is going to be far more philosophical in content, as opposed to theological, and I'll get responses that are more intelligent than the ones generally received here.

LINK (http://tinyurl.com/2mdxob)

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

Exactly, there is nothing you can say to this ArgonPlasma2000. You can come up with all the idea's and arguments you want, but if your God is truly all-powerful then he must have a way, infact, an infinite ways.

So, conclusion..

Your God is either not all-loving, or not all-powerful.



Thats stupid. Can you logically tell me that God is somehow obligated to do such? Didnt think so.

The point is then moot.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Thats stupid. Can you logically tell me that God is somehow obligated to do such? Didnt think so.

He's not obligated to do anything. But tell me this, if you were an all-loving being and you had the ability to remove all evil from the world (murder, rape, natural disasters, cancer, etc. etc.) and still maintain freewill, wouldn't you do it?

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

He's not obligated to do anything. But tell me this, if you were an all-loving being and you had the ability to remove all evil from the world (murder, rape, natural disasters, cancer, etc. etc.) and still maintain freewill, wouldn't you do it?

You are quite the funny one.

In the Christian religion, the problem is that sin is in the world. Sin is an attitude problem with God. You cant take sin out of the world without killing free will.

If I cant choose to sin, there is no complete free will.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

If I cant choose to sin, there is no complete free will.

If you are still saying that after the arguments I and the other man have given, then you fail to understand us completely. In fact, you even failed to understand my thread in Humanities that you replied to.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

If you are still saying that after the arguments I and the other man have given, then you fail to understand us completely. In fact, you even failed to understand my thread in Humanities that you replied to.

If it is impossible for me to be able to choose to do something, I do not have completely free willpower.

Its not hard to comprehend, unless you have "logicked" it away with ignorant ramblings.

It is possible. As my thread in Humanities proves, if God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then he can do anything, including making a world void of evil but filled with freewill. It may seem like a contradiction, it may not make sense, but that doesn't matter to God who can do anything because he's not chained to logic.

quote:If I remember correctly, you used a similar argument in a thread where a poster asked: “if God can do anything, then can he make a boulder so heavy that he cannot lift it?” Of course, either he can or cannot do that and is trapped by logic, the very thing he himself created, or he is outside of logic and can in fact do both. I seem to remember you saying the latter, which would support my argument.

Either you're saying God cannot do everything and is therefore not all-powerful, or he can do anything but isn't willing to make a world with freewill, yet void of evil.

Human logic encompasses free will as we know it. If God suspended human logic, free will we currently enjoy is no longer valid.

There. Logic. Happy?

Regardless:

quote:he can do anything but isn't willing to make a world with freewill, yet void of evil.

Human logic as we know it cannot change without killing free will. Actions cannot be divines impeded without killing free will. If God does not allow me to sin, I am not free. WHAT ABOUT THAT SIMPLE CONCEPT DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND?!!!

It seems you are idiotically trying to use logic in a situation where it is no longer valid. There is the problem. You cannot use logic to prove something when that logic changes fundamentally so that it cannot describe its purpose. That is the exact same thing as saying 3=2 and then tricking the entire world to think that 3=2 when doing so would fundamentally alter logical reasoning thus negating the need or whim of one to do so because 3 now equals 2.

3 cant equal 2, and if it did, we couldnt tell the difference. Therefore, 3 cannot EVER be equal to 2 by integer math, no matter if you defy logic to do so.

I wonder if you would spare me a second. I have a theory that says that only people who read but not post in a thread can be swayed by reasoning. However, no mater how simple and fundamental a logical argument, a poster will fail to comprehend it.

True or false?



[This message has been edited by ArgonPlasma2000 (edited 02-28-2007).]

I get what you're saying, dude. But if God is not bound to logic and can do anything, HE IS NOT BOUND TO ANY LOGIC, then he can create another world where we have freewill, but void of evil. It would only be slightly different, but we wouldn't know because to us it would be natural.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 02-28-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

If I remember correctly, you used a similar argument in a thread where a poster asked: “if God can do anything, then can he make a boulder so heavy that he cannot lift it?” Of course, either he can or cannot do that and is trapped by logic, the very thing he himself created, or he is outside of logic and can in fact do both. I seem to remember you saying the latter, which would support my argument.

Correct me if I’m wrong, though.



Yes, i did say something to that effect. And if you recall, i also said, or rather, asked would we be able to realize/recognize it (IIRC). That does not mean trickery. It would be a limitation on our abilities to recognize it, if it were done.

Even if God can do it, it does not mean that He would do it or is even required to do it or that it is necessary for Him to do it.

johnny

quote:Even if God can do it, it does not mean that He would do it or is even required to do it or that it is necessary for Him to do it.

I never said it was. But we have to have faith that he isn't deceiving us, because he might be. He might be deceiving us right now with your logical argument, we can't know. If he can do anything, then he could be deceiving us right now.

That is my entire point. You have to have faith and nothing but faith in the Bible and God, because for all you know, he could be lying.

[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 02-28-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

No, I feel you are not answering the question because you cannot and don't want to accept the fact that you simply have to have faith that God is supremely good and not tricking you with logic.

Feel what ever you want. But in a nutshell, you are trying to use logic to show that logic can be broken... which goes back to my earlier statement, "but that would make even the very logic that you are trying to appeal to, subjective at best and arbitrary or false in the worst"

johnny

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

And remember, the Bible requires absolute faith too then, because he can be tricking you with that as well. So you can't get out of this argument using Bible passages.

Where does it require absolute faith?

Where, according to the Bible, does faith come from?

johnny

quote:Where, according to the Bible, does faith come from?

You're not paying attention to my posts, are you?

quote:[B]No, I feel you are not answering the question because you cannot and don't want to accept the fact that you simply have to have faith that God is supremely good and not tricking you with logic.

I repeat it once again: if God is all-powerful, therefore being able to do anything, and is the creator of everything, therefore being the creator of all logic, then he stands outside of logic as well as all of the universe. Therefore, all things are possible for God and he can just as easily make white black as he can trick you for his own amusement. You simply have to have faith that he is not doing this. You simply have to have faith that He is not so perfectly powerful, that he has the power, the ability, to say imperfect things. But of course, to do this is to restrain God's all-powerfulness, which is a no, no.

And remember, the Bible requires absolute faith too then, because he can be tricking you with that as well. So you can't get out of this argument using Bible passages.

Therefore, if a Christian, you have to have faith that the Bible is telling the truth.

quote:I wonder if you would spare me a second. I have a theory that says that only people who read but not post in a thread can be swayed by reasoning. However, no mater how simple and fundamental a logical argument, a poster will fail to comprehend it.

True or false?

Are you a poster or limited to only reading a thread?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



which goes back to my earlier statement, "but that would make even the very logic that you are trying to appeal to, subjective at best and arbitrary or false in the worst"



He's saying that God can potentially break logic. That doesn't mean the logic he is using fails automatically. Yes, it could be that his logic is false or erroneous, but his logic could also remain sound and valid.

If his logic remains sound then he has a point. However, if logic as a whole is not to be trusted, then none of you have points, you included. Your argument against him would refute itself.

In short, either he has a point, or neither of you do.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 02-28-2007).]

QUOTE Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

I never said it was. But we have to have faith that he isn't deceiving us, because he might be. He might be deceiving us right now with your logical argument, we can't know. If he can do anything, then he could be deceiving us right now.

Deception is an act of lying, correct?

Lying is contra-truth, is it not?

So, if He is perfect He can not lying... unless lying is part of perfection. Just like your point here:

quote:That is the exact same thing as saying 3=2 and then tricking the entire world to think that 3=2 when doing so would fundamentally alter logical reasoning thus negating the need or whim of one to do so because 3 now equals 2.

and like i said: if lying is good, is that statement true or false?... is it then good or bad to lie?



That is my entire point. You have to have faith and nothing but faith in the Bible and God, because for all you know, he could be lying.

It isnt that i totally disagree with this point, if it is really your point.

But allow me to twist your words a bit (actually, this thought), so maybe you'll see something...

God's Word, throughout the bible (lower case 'b', else it would be redundant) is telling us that we should have faith in Him.

But our Sinful Nature is such that we want to say, "but maybe He is lying".

For instance the account of the Fall.. isnt that, in effect, exactly what Eve (and Adam) asked?... "did God REALLY mean, dont eat of the tree in the middle of the garden?.... did He REALLY mean that He would punish us, if we disobeyed?... is God trying to hold out on us, cuz that fruit looks good enough to eat?"

And isnt that exactly what we do when we knowingly Sin?..."Is the Bible really God's Word?... Did He really mean what He said?, etc."

A perfect being can not lie.

If God is a perfect being, He can not lie. If the Bible is His Word, then it can not be a lie.

If it is His Word, and He says in His Word that He can not lie... if He is a perfect being.

Do i have faith that He is a perfect being?.. yes.

Ok, that's enough for now.

God Bless,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

He's saying that God can potentially break logic. That doesn't mean the logic he is using fails automatically. Yes, it could be that his logic is false or erroneous, but his logic could also remain sound and valid.

If his logic remains sound then he has a point. However, if logic as a whole is not to be trusted, then none of you have points, you included. Your argument against him would refute itself.

In short, either he has a point, or neither of you do.



Hi Rust,

Did i word that wrong? cuz it seems to me that that is what i was trying to get across.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

johnny

quote:So, if He is perfect He can not lying... unless lying is part of perfection. Just like your point here:

You're blatantly ignoring my refutation of this very argument now and are merely repeating it. Either that, or you simply don't understand it.

quote:In short, either he has a point, or neither of you do.

Thank you, I'm glad somebody understands it.





[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 02-28-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Hi Rust,

Did i word that wrong? cuz it seems to me that that is what i was trying to get across.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

johnny



Well, are you saying that he has the better position because he is either correct or doesn't have a point while you are either incorrect or don't have a point?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Well, are you saying that he has the better position because he is either correct or doesn't have a point while you are either incorrect or don't have a point?



http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) lol.. maybe that "thanks for the input" was premature.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You're blatantly ignoring my refutation of this very argument now and are merely repeating it. Either that, or you simply don't understand it.

You are agueing for an all-knowing, all-powerful being.

I am claiming that that is not necessarily a perfect being. Those are just some of the attributes of a perfect being.

Any all-knowing being would know if he used trickery (i.e. deceit, lie) to change our understanding of logic... he would know it because he is all-knowing.

A perfect being can not lie, unless lying is the truth... that is, unless lying is part of being perfect.

God Bless,

johnny

quote:A perfect being can not lie, unless lying is the truth... that is, unless lying is part of being perfect.

*bangs head against wall*

Seriously, are you just being stubborn or don't you get it? I really can't tell.

Read it carefully, because I'm tired of repeating myself to someone who is either ignoring it or not getting it:

quote:I repeat it once again: if God is all-powerful, therefore being able to do anything, and is the creator of everything, therefore being the creator of all logic, then he stands outside of logic as well as all of the universe. Therefore, all things are possible for God and he can just as easily make white black as he can trick you for his own amusement. You simply have to have faith that he is not doing this. You simply have to have faith that He is not so perfectly powerful, that he has the power, the ability, to say imperfect things. But of course, to do this is to restrain God's all-powerfulness, which is a no, no.

And remember, the Bible requires absolute faith too then, because he can be tricking you with that as well. So you can't get out of this argument using Bible passages.



quote:I am claiming that that is not necessarily a perfect being. Those are just some of the attributes of a perfect being.

Nice of you to alter what you're saying. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Either way, my logical argument for an all-powerful God refutes your perfect God argument.

PS, I expect, as a Christian, you believe God is all-knowing and all-powerful. Do you? I want a simple yes or no, and nothing else.





[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-01-2007).]

quote:*bangs head against wall*

Seriously, are you just being stubborn or don't you get it? I really can't tell.

Read it carefully, because I'm tired of repeating myself to someone who is either ignoring it or not getting it:

Ditto.

Now what? we yell "nah nah na booger"?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Ditto.

Right. Honestly, my argument did clearly refute yours (I'm not being pompous here, BTW). But let's call it quits, because this is just going to go around in circles because of you playing ignorant.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>God can do anything, all things are possible for God.

<LI>Because God can do anything, because all things are possible for God, he can bend logic.

<LI>Therefore, he could be a perfect God doing imperfect things.

<LI>Therefore, you have to have faith God isn’t lying to you for his own amusement.

</UL>

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Refutation: a perfectly being doing imperfect things makes no sense and is illogical.

<LI>Refutation of refutation: it doesn’t have to make sense, God can bend logic and defy sense.

</UL>

And to quote Rust:

quote:He's saying that God can potentially break logic. That doesn't mean the logic he is using fails automatically. Yes, it could be that his logic is false or erroneous, but his logic could also remain sound and valid.

If his logic remains sound then he has a point. However, if logic as a whole is not to be trusted, then none of you have points, you included. Your argument against him would refute itself.

In short, either he has a point, or neither of you do.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-01-2007).]

quote:Nice of you to alter what you're saying.

Where did i alter what i said?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Where did i alter what i said?

It doesn’t matter now, because either way, my logical argument refutes your logical argument.

[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-01-2007).]

quote:God can do anything, all things are possible for God.

Because God can do anything, because all things are possible for God, he can bend logic.

Therefore, he could be a perfect God doing imperfect things.

Therefore, you have to have faith God isn’t lying to you for his own amusement.



Refutation: a perfectly being doing imperfect things makes no sense and is illogical.

Refutation of refutation: it doesn’t have to make sense, God can bend logic and defy sense.

These did not refute. All they did is claim possibilities.

You have the ability and knowledge to change a light bulb. Your ability and knowledge says nothing of what you do with that ability and knowledge.

By limiting God to only 'all-knowing' and 'all-powerful' you have not taken in to account other traits that are tenets of the Christian God. He can not be perfect but do imperfect things, period. This statement has nothing to do with our knowledge or perception. It has to do with the definition of perfection. If a perfect being changed the laws of logic to trick us for his amusement, he would also be tricking himself, which in turn would mean that he was not all-knowing, and therefore, not perfect.

johnny

quote:By limiting God to only 'all-knowing' and 'all-powerful' you have not taken in to account other traits that are tenets of the Christian God. He can not be perfect but do imperfect things, period. This statement has nothing to do with our knowledge or perception. It has to do with the definition of perfection. If a perfect being changed the laws of logic to trick us for his amusement, he would also be tricking himself, which in turn would mean that he was not all-knowing, and therefore, not perfect.

*bangs head against wall some more*

He wouldn't be tricking himself, unless he wanted to, because he can do anything.

quote:And remember, the Bible requires absolute faith too then, because he can be tricking you with that as well. So you can't get out of this argument using Bible passages.

quote:<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Refutation: a perfectly being doing imperfect things makes no sense and is illogical.

<LI>Refutation of refutation: it doesn’t have to make sense, God can bend logic and defy sense.</UL>

You cannot get out of my argument. It shows you have to have nothing but complete faith in God, because he could be tricking you. Therefore, all your logical arguments become useless.





[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-01-2007).]

and if you don't believe in free will?

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You cannot get out of my argument. It shows you have to have nothing but complete faith in God, because he could be tricking you. Therefore, all your logical arguments become useless.



Your arguement is self-refuting from the start.

Your all-knowing being can not be a perfect being if he lies.

If you are claiming that a lie can belie and a non-lie in the same way at the same time, then, like i said before, is that the truth or a lie? Remember that an all-knowing being would know that he is changing logic, but he would still know that he change logic or he would not be all-knowing.

This works even if he change what perfection is, because if he change perfection, he would not have been perfect in the first place... he would have gotten less perfect, different, or more perfect.



EDIT: i'm leaving the wording as is, but just noting that 'belie' should read 'be a lie'

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 03-01-2007).]

It's not self-refuting. He can do anything, therefore he can do what you are saying he cannot do.

This is actually driving me crazy. I'm having a conversation with my friend about this right now on MSN.

I'm Jarl S. Berg and he is Max.

quote:Jarl S. Berg says: man, I've really bothered myself

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: why?

Jarl S. Berg says: ok, here me out

Jarl S. Berg says: say there is a god, right?

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: there is a God, right

Jarl S. Berg says: And say that that God can do anything, he is a God who can make all things possible, he can make all things happen. Therefore he can defy logic. Therefore we would have to have nothing but complete faith in everything, because he could be screwing with us this very minute. My entire past could be a lie, 2 plus 2 could actually have been 5 all those other times but he is making me think it is equal

Jarl S. Berg says: to 4, etc. etc. etc. All of this could not be real.

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: well i don;t subscribe to the idea that God is all powerful, or all knowing. most powerful, and most knowing, it's in the bible and fits better with the modern concept of relaity

Jarl S. Berg says: OK, but that doesn't change the fact that God COULD be all-powerful and all-knowing and is simply tricking you into think him being most-powerful and most-knowing and that modern reality is real and that your description of God fits in best with modern reality.

Jarl S. Berg says: I've tried getting out of it myself, and I can't. There is no way out of it. You can only say "it's not likely" but that's not good enough for me, because he could be tricking us into thinking it is not likely.

Jarl S. Berg says: This shows we can't know anything absolutely.

Jarl S. Berg says: Only through probability, and then there's a small probability that the probability is wrong and we're being deceived.

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: but it's not in the Bible that he's all powerful

Jarl S. Berg says: That doesn't matter though.

Jarl S. Berg says: He could be tricking you with the Bible.

Jarl S. Berg says: You have to have faith the Bible is telling the truth because this all-powerful God could be tricking you with the Bible.

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: all Religion is about faith

Jarl S. Berg says: Exactly.

Jarl S. Berg says: I used this argument against this girl to prove that religion is about faith, and you can't use anything but faith to support your religion but now I've gotten myself stuck in a rut where there is only probability (which I agreed with beforehand) but that even the probability could be wrong. And it's really bothering me.

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: you think too much

Jarl S. Berg says: Doesn't it bother you, though?

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: not really

Jarl S. Berg says: OMG

Jarl S. Berg says: REALLY?

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: well it's not like i can do anything about it

Jarl S. Berg says: I know, you're right. There's nothing I can do about it. There's only a small probability that it is true, and all it shows is that we can't know anything 100%. But still, in the back of my head, it is there and it annoys me to know this.

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: so i work with what i've got

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: but you might not know it! ahhh!

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: lol



Jarl S. Berg says: GAH

Jarl S. Berg says: man, this has frustrated me.

Jarl S. Berg says: OK, OK, OK. We can't know anything absolutely for sure, there is a small probability that I'm being tricked, but it doesn't matter because this works and to us it appears not likely... although it could be likely, but it doesn't look that way and you have to work with what you've got.

I Am A Max. Hear me RAWR! says: yeah, anything could be wrong, but until it is proved wrong we have to take it as true

Jarl S. Berg says: yeah, ok, I guess, lol

Listen Hare, i understand your arguement, i really do. I'm not being thick; playing ignorant; trying to make you bruise your head on a wall.

I was also trying, as best as i could, to not equate the 'perfect being' with God... at least not to this point of the discussion.

Not because i think that God is not perfect, but because the discussion had not even gotten to the point of trying to show that God COULD be that 'perfect being'.

If you want to call it quits, we can.

You can even have the last word... but if you reply, and want me to not respond, just say, "no response needed"... and i will take that as "let's call it quits for now. Maybe in the future WE can try beating our heads w/ walls again"...

You can even have the last word by saying,

"Hare wins.... no response needed"

and i'll drop it.

But, if you want, we can keep going... it's up to you... fair enough?

God Bless,

johnny

It's clear that you cannot refute it and are bailing, so I'll be nice and say I don't see any point in going on. Besides, whether God is or is not the perfect being, it doesn't matter. He is all powerful, so he could be tricking you with that logical argument still.

It really might as well end. It's just going to go in circles, and it was clear you were referring to God when you spoke about the perfect being, otherwise you wouldn't have used it to try and refute my argument about good being good because God says so and for no other reason.

[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-01-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

It's clear that you cannot refute it and are bailing, so I'll be nice and say I don't see any point in going on. Besides, whether God is or is not the perfect being, it doesn't matter. He is all powerful, so he could be tricking you with that logical argument still.

It really might as well end. It's just going to go in circles, and it was clear you were referring to God when you spoke about the perfect being, otherwise you wouldn't have used it to try and refute my argument about good being good because God says so and for no other reason.



Did you forget to say, "no response needed"?

Since you didnt, i'm going to assume that you really want a response.

I am not bailing on you or the discussion.

You were the one that said

quote:But let's call it quits, because this is just going to go around in circles because of you playing ignorant.



In reguards to "Besides, whether God is or is not the perfect being, it doesn't matter. He is all powerful, so he could be tricking you with that logical argument still."

It does matter.

You have not shown that just because a being has all knowledge and power, he would use it for the sake of tricking. You've only showed that he could use it that way... and we would be none the wiser.

And it would be impossible for you, based both on logic and your arguement, to prove that he has tricked.

Neither have you shown that an all knowing being can trick without knowing that he tricked... which would mean the all knowing all powerful being, that you are argueing "for", is not perfect.

You also have not shown that God is not the perfect being. (yes, this is alittle unfair, since i have not tried to show that God is the perfect being)

Until you show each of those, you have refuted nothing... and i'll even spot you the impossible one.



Your turn.

You have failed to understand me entirely, if you think that I am actually trying to prove God is deceiving you, as opposed to possibly deceiving you. I shall try to make my two points as clear as possible.

My logical argument said God was all-powerful and could do anything, it did not say anything about him being a perfect being. I did not need to prove he is the perfect being for my argument to work. If he can defy logic, then he could be tricking you into believing that your logical argument about the perfect being is correct, when it may not be.

It would be you who would have to prove God is the perfect being, since it was you who tried to use that perfect being argument to disprove my argument about morality being totally arbitrary, whether or not it comes from God. And this leads me to my second point.

You cannot prove this 100%. If you believe God is all-powerful, which I am guessing you do, since you are a Christian, then you have to have faith in God and in the teachings of the Bible and you cannot have anything BUT faith, because if God is all-powerful, he could be tricking you and therefore you have to have faith he is not.

Although it has come somewhat off topic and even refuted my own initial post about morality definitely being arbitrary, as opposed to being possibly arbitrary, this is my second point: faith, and only faith, should be used if you believe in an all-powerful God.

But of course, if you are like me, an agnostic-atheist, and do not believe in an all-powerful God, you still have to accept the small possibility that there is an all-powerful God tricking you. This can lead to the slippery road of solipsism, if you don’t keep your head about you and accept the wonderful world of possibilities.

So, as you can see, I was not trying to prove he is deceiving you, but only that it is a possibility, that reason and logic are to a major extent useless if you believe in an all-powerful God for arguing about said God, and that therefore you must have faith and nothing but. This renders your perfect being argument moot.





[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-01-2007).]

QUOTE Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You have failed to understand me entirely,

No, i dont think that i have.

if you think that I am actually trying to prove God is deceiving you, as opposed to possibly deceiving you.

No, that is not what i think you are doing (or even trying to do). My point on this is that in order to refute my position, this is what you must do... otherwise it falls into the very same possibility that you are argueing for, namely, how do you know you havent been tricked.... which is the same as i said before, that you would have to appeal to a higher logic, etc.

I shall try to make my two points as clear as possible.

Thank you, but you were clear before.

My logical argument said God was all-powerful and could do anything, it did not say anything about him being a perfect being.

You are right. You claimed (and i agreed) that an A-K and A-P being could still be a "shit". And you are right again, since it was i who was argueing 'a perfect being'.

But now maybe we can see that there are two different ends of the spectrum.... to different catagories of possible beings.

A perfect being could not be a shit... although an A-K/A-P could be either a shit or perfect...

I did not need to prove he is the perfect being for my argument to work.

Yep, you do. Because there can be two different possible A-K/A-P beings... and a perfect being can not decieve himself.. even if we can not know if there is trickery.

If he can defy logic, then he could be tricking you into believing that your logical argument about the perfect being is correct, when it may not be.

You get to fall into that same trap. But again, a perfect being can not decieve himself... if he were anything other than perfect (past,present or future), he would not be perfect.

It would be you who would have to prove God is the perfect being,

Yes, and that's why i called it unfair to require it of you, since i hadnt even tried.

since it was you who tried to use that perfect being argument to prove my argument about morality being totally arbitrary, whether or not it comes from God.

And that P-B arguement stands. Unless there is the possibility of perfectly bad... but then morality is against it self.... if you go in that direction, then i'll throw in the towel... and be fearful if you come near me with a pointed object... i'd even be afraid to call you crazy. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

And this leads me to my second point.

You cannot prove this 100%.

No, only because you can claim "trickery".

But i think some thinkers have come pretty darn close... if you allow logic.

If you believe God is all-powerful, which I am guessing you do, since you are a Christian, then you have to have faith in God and in the teachings of the Bible and you cannot have anything BUT faith,

Yes, i believe He is A-P, but no, i can have knowledge that He exists. In terms of this discussion, it is one of the possiblities... and, it happens to be true. Now, you can claim this is faith that i have not been decieved, but you must admit that it is a possibility, even from your standpoint.

because if God is all-powerful, he could be tricking you and therefore you have to have faith he is not

Actually, what i have to have faith in, is something that has not even been mentioned in this thread. That He has forgiven me through the work of His Son.

And since we are talking possibilities (your word 'could'), then you are tricking yourself and having faith that you are not being tricked.

Although it has come somewhat off topic and even refuted my own initial post about morality definitely being arbitrary, as opposed to being possibly arbitrary, this is my second point: faith, and only faith, should be used if you believe in an all-powerful God.

You're leaving out the possibility of actual knowledge.



But of course, if you are like me, an agnostic-atheist, and do not believe in an all-powerful God, you still have to accept the small possibility that there is an all-powerful God tricking you.

Or existing and not tricking you because He will not, since He is perfect http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

So, as you can see, I was not trying to prove he is deceiving you, but only that it is a possibility, that reason and logic are to a major extent useless if you believe in an all-powerful God for arguing about said God, and that therefore you must have faith and nothing but.

Ok, so you werent trying to prove i was decieved.. only saying that there is a possibility, and i have to have faith and not logic.... while at the same time, you get to have your faith (that you aren't tricked) and logic to prove it by.... ever think about going into politics or law?

Gotta go, it's late.

Tomorrow maybe... supposed big winter storm so i'll probably get done late... not as late as it is right now, but i most likely wont even start if i get home too late.

God Bless,

johnny

I can’t do this right now. I’ve just totally mind-fucked myself with another thought.

You can say you’ve “won”, for now. Although we weren’t exactly debating, as opposed to having a discussion in which I did not honestly care whether you won or not because it in no way proves the existence of a God and is all merely metaphysical speculation.

I’ll probably be back, but I’ve got something more important to contemplate. However, I will say briefly that you have repeated things I and rust have both pointed out are wrong and all you have done with your reply has caused even more uncertainty. And I never said I wasn't subject to being tricked by God either, but if he tricked me, it would kind of prove my point. And if all powerful, he can make it so he does imperfect things but is still perfect.





[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-01-2007).]

PS, can you rewrite your entire post and think carefully before you wrote? A lot of what you have said is confusing because of your grammar and word choice.

edit - this whole thread has been a major headfuck for me in that I think it's actually caused me to lose belief in everything.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-01-2007).]

Seriously, this feels really fucked up. I feel as if nothing is real, that all is pointless.

Seriously, if anyone can, prove me wrong. This isn't a joke. I really want to be proven wrong now. I've disturbed myself.

Basically, there’s only a probability God is deceiving you. That doesn’t disprove your logical argument, no. And I agree that if God is perfect, then he is never wrong, etc. But that pretty much disproves the Bible, what with him making a mistake with people and having to drown them all, etc… anyways, I got more important things to worry about now, such as I’ve lost all freaking certainty in the world and have no idea what’s real anymore.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

You are quite the funny one.

In the Christian religion, the problem is that sin is in the world. Sin is an attitude problem with God. You cant take sin out of the world without killing free will.

If I cant choose to sin, there is no complete free will.

But got created EVERYTHING. So he could have created a mind that doesnt do bad things. If the human mind could NEVER think of these things. We wouldnt even be able to imagine it. We wouldnt know were lacking free will because we never thought of bad things. Therefor we would still have free will.

So gods creations, us. Have found that god made a mistake and we could have done it better.

Hare_Geist pretty much explained it, ArgonPlasma2000. If you cannot grasp what we're saying, then that's your problem.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

anyways, I got more important things to worry about now, such as I’ve lost all freaking certainty in the world and have no idea what’s real anymore.



If you real have uncertainty of reality, I'm sorry if this thread had contributed to any anxiety.

I hope that it might help you to know that there is something you can be certain of.. and no, i'm not going to use this as an opportunity to point you to Jesus...

You can be certain that you have a mind.



quote:PS, can you rewrite your entire post ...

edit - this whole thread has been a major headfuck for me in that I think it's actually caused me to lose belief in everything.





No, i wont rewrite the whole post, but i will try to point out a couple of things as clearly as i can.

First, the being that you have been arguing a possibility of, does not trump a perfect being... and according to the Christian Faith, God is a perfect being.

Second, even if your senerio were true (A-P, A-K being that is a trickster with logic), logic itself would be void and you would fall into your own trap, because you would also be inside that deception along with the Christian and need faith that logic isnt deceptive in order to prove that the Christian need only faith.

I have a suggestion that might help any anxiety. Take a bit of a break during this weekend. Try not to think too much on anything deep. Do real things with friends outside of the internet. Things that will occupy your mind like, i dont know, basketball or bowling, working on a car or some project (with friends). Maybe even, if you're old enough, go out and have a few beers (responsibly) and talk stupid to the honeys.

Do stuff that lets you know that things are real... or if they are just a construct of your mind, atleast enjoy them in the only way i can.... ooops, http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) just kidding, i mean, in the only way you can.



After the weekend, if you want, we can resume our mutual wall banging.

God Bless,

johnny

quote:First, the being that you have been arguing a possibility of, does not trump a perfect being... and according to the Christian Faith, God is a perfect being.

Second, even if your senerio were true (A-P, A-K being that is a trickster with logic), logic itself would be void and you would fall into your own trap, because you would also be inside that deception along with the Christian and need faith that logic isnt deceptive in order to prove that the Christian need only faith.

To explain a few things: I admit there is a possibility I am being tricked. If I am, then we’re all wrong or only I’m wrong. If I’m right however, then there is a possibility that you are wrong. And in fact, if the perfect being is all-powerful, then he can defy logic and do the imperfect, tricking you with Biblical texts, therefore the perfect being trumps itself in that it can do the imperfect.

Surely you admit that with God, everything is possible? :-S

*goes back to studying perspectivism*

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

To explain a few things: I admit there is a possibility I am being tricked. If I am, then we’re all wrong or only I’m wrong. If I’m right however, then there is a possibility that you are wrong. And in fact, if the perfect being is all-powerful, then he can defy logic and do the imperfect, tricking you with Biblical texts, therefore the perfect being trumps itself in that it can do the imperfect.

Surely you admit that with God, everything is possible? :-S

*goes back to studying perspectivism*

OK, so we dont want to wait a whole weekend to bruise some walls?

Can not be A-K if a perfect being can trick himself... which would mean that that being is less than perfect.

A perfect being can not get more perfect, less perfect or even laterally perfect (i.e. a different but equally perfect)

And as those passages earlier quoted, there are things God can not do. He can not lie. He can not swear by a being greater than Himself. So yes, there are things that a perfect being can not do, not because there is a physical limit on power or knowledge, but because they are none things.

johnny

quote:Can not be A-K if a perfect being can trick himself... which would mean that that being is less than perfect.

You're making the mistake of using logic. You're forgetting he can defy logic and therefore be A-K and trick himself. He can defy logic, do the imperfect and still be perfect.

As for the passages, I hope you remember my reply that they require unquestionable faith because he could be tricking you. And they're only none things because God hasn't bothered defying logic to create them.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-03-2007).]

QUOTE Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You're making the mistake of using logic. You're forgetting he can defy logic and therefore be A-K and trick himself. He can defy logic, do the imperfect and still be perfect.[b]

What you are missing here, is that at the very same time that you claim i can not use logic, you are using logic (you are being self-referentially absurd).

And, yet again, it is not an issue of our perception, it is an issue of a being that is decieving himself. If he has decieved himself, he was not all knowing. i could add that he is not all knowing (cuz he decieved himself i.e. has less knowledge or different knowledge than before) but that is really the exact same statement about an all knowing being.

And again, these are two different beings.

An A-K, A-P trickster being is not the same as a perfect being. If a perfect being changes, that being was either not perfect before or he is not perfect after.



[b]As for the passages, I hope you remember my reply that they require unquestionable faith because he could be tricking you. And they're only none things because God hasn't bothered defying logic to create them.

You are having unquestionable faith that logic works in any senerio. If logic is allowed for you, it is allowed for me equally.

If it is not allowed for me, it is not allowed for you, unless, like i said, you are able to appeal to a higher logic.

If logic applies to both of us (i.e. no being has changed logic in a trickster way) then the passages are more than fair play.



I'll check back in the morning.

God Bless,

johnny

^^^ sorry 'bout the bolding, i must have missed a closing tag.

Did anyone else notice that the title is "Proff go doesn't exist"

So its "Proffessor god doesn't exist"

Not really "PROOF"

Besides the point that it is just a bunch of derogatory 15 year old teen-bullshit with no evidence and isin't making any valid point.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

What you are missing here, is that at the very same time that you claim i can not use logic, you are using logic (you are being self-referentially absurd).

No I'm not. I'm using logic to prove God can deny logic, therefore refuting your claim that God is binded by logic and therefore can not be perfect and do imperfect things. I'm not saying anything beyond that except that he can defy logic and therefore do the impossible.

quote:If he has decieved himself, he was not all knowing.

Once again, you're forgetting he can defy logic. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:And again, these are two different beings. An A-K, A-P trickster being is not the same as a perfect being. If a perfect being changes, that being was either not perfect before or he is not perfect after.

You know that's not true. How many times must I explain it? If he is A-P, he can defy logic, do the imperfect and still be perfect, therefore refuting your claim. That doesn't mean he always defies logic or that logic is useless, however. Just we can't be 100% certain.

quote:You are having unquestionable faith that logic works in any senerio. If logic is allowed for you, it is allowed for me equally.

I'm not having unquestionable faith though, am I? If you remember, I admitted earlier that there is a possibility that I am wrong, that you are wrong, or that we are both wrong.

quote:If it is not allowed for me, it is not allowed for you, unless, like i said, you are able to appeal to a higher logic.

What don't you get when I say "God is outside logic"? That means there is no higher logic. Ironically, it's logical that God can deny logic and is therefore outside all logic.

quote:If logic applies to both of us (i.e. no being has changed logic in a trickster way) then the passages are more than fair play.

Yes, IF. IF he has changed logic entirely, then we are both wrong, if he has changed it only for you, then you are wrong and I have a point, if he changed it for me, then my point stands either way because he has still altered logic, unless of course, he defies logic somehow corrupting my claim and giving me a bigger head fuck than before.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-03-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Siash:

Did anyone else notice that the title is "Proff go doesn't exist"

So its "Proffessor god doesn't exist"

Not really "PROOF"

Besides the point that it is just a bunch of derogatory 15 year old teen-bullshit with no evidence and isin't making any valid point.

sorry for not stating that clearer it was the first day of my theology class and thats how my Proffessor started off his lecture how all religions are right and wrong he also gave some points to prove other religions wrong/right but i just wrote down the points about christianity ( he also gave some points proving god was right) but i didnt take them down

GAH! I wish i had gotten in on this thread earlier its way to long to start in now... so keep in mind this may be TOTALLY off topic(probably is) and im mainly just posting it because this seems to be a relatively active thread but here goes...



Is it a shared belief that the devil is the greatest evil, and the greatest deceiver?