So I was thinking (which usually bodes poorly for me) about Jesus and love. If Jesus is the physical manifestation of God's love, that mean Christ is basically love. It is said in the Gospels that all who believe in Christ and follow his will shall be granted eternal life in heaven etc, etc.

Assuming the Gospels and everything they state is true (I'm not talking about the rest of the Bible, ignore everything else for a moment), then practicing love (read compassion, good-will) is practicing faith in Christ. So perhaps the Church as a group of dedicated followers is superfluous provided that they only come together to worship. Perhaps a Christian need not have faith in Christ as a physical and divine being but Christ as a representation and symbol of love?

This is all stated on the premise that the Gospels are true. I'm not saying they are or aren't, just hypothetically. Neither am I looking for an argument about the validity of Christianity, but about the "truthiness" of this speed-induced theory. Any major cracks in this idea, totse?

You're completely right dude. Jesus told one of his disciples that if a person had no knowledge of Jesus the person, but believed in love, then they believed in Jesus.

Jesus got pissed one day and threw a hissy fit.

Love fades.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Love fades.

What do you mean by "fades"? And what sort of love are you talking about?

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

So I was thinking (which usually bodes poorly for me) about Jesus and love. If Jesus is the physical manifestation of God's love, that mean Christ is basically love. It is said in the Gospels that all who believe in Christ and follow his will shall be granted eternal life in heaven etc, etc.

Assuming the Gospels and everything they state is true (I'm not talking about the rest of the Bible, ignore everything else for a moment), then practicing love (read compassion, good-will) is practicing faith in Christ. So perhaps the Church as a group of dedicated followers is superfluous provided that they only come together to worship. Perhaps a Christian need not have faith in Christ as a physical and divine being but Christ as a representation and symbol of love?

This is all stated on the premise that the Gospels are true. I'm not saying they are or aren't, just hypothetically. Neither am I looking for an argument about the validity of Christianity, but about the "truthiness" of this speed-induced theory. Any major cracks in this idea, totse?

In the hypothetical situation that christianity were true (which I don't believe) then I think that all atheists would go to heaven so long as they loved people, anyone, on earth.

This includes such an impossibly large number of people that there would be very very few people in hell, only very purely bad people who didn't care about any one at all.

That way, God would at least be somewhat benevolent, although not completely, but still better then if all non-christians go to hell.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

You're completely right dude. Jesus told one of his disciples that if a person had no knowledge of Jesus the person, but believed in love, then they believed in Jesus.

Jesus also told one of his disciples (I believe it was John) that:

"Salvation is only available through faith in Jesus Christ"

So you can love all you want, but you're still on J.C.'s shitlist if you don't swallow the entire doctrine and submit yourself to the teachings of Christ as depicted in the Bible.

Unfortunately, just modeling yourself after Christ (being loving, compassionate, caring) is not enough. Just living a good, decent, moral, law-abiding life is not enough. You must turn your entire life over to it in order to be worthy of God.

You are still considered a sinner, a nobody, "caste out into Hell" if you don't follow his doctrine to the LETTER:

Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law."

Galatians 2:16

Christianity is about love, but many, many Christians don't seem to grasp that concept. Instead, they practice hate and bigotry although they don't realize it. Christ judged no one and loved all. It is no one's right to say what Christ will do to 'sinners'. We should all love and be open-minded.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Jesus also told one of his disciples (I believe it was John) that:

"Salvation is only available through faith in Jesus Christ"

So you can love all you want, but you're still on J.C.'s shitlist if you don't swallow the entire doctrine and submit yourself to the teachings of Christ as depicted in the Bible.

Unfortunately, just modeling yourself after Christ (being loving, compassionate, caring) is not enough. Just living a good, decent, moral, law-abiding life is not enough. You must turn your entire life over to it in order to be worthy of God.

You are still considered a sinner, a nobody, "caste out into Hell" if you don't follow his doctrine to the LETTER:

Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law."

Galatians 2:16



If you accept the fact that Jesus = love then you'll realize your entire post was useless.

BTW, I love the quote you used, fuckin' grand proof that Jesus was an anarchist and the OT was full of shit. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

If Jesus was all love then he wouldn't send anyone to Hell, now would he? Isn't the definition of love forgiving someone irregardless of what they've done?

So if a Christian God were to exist (hypothetically), and he were to be all loving, then he would forgive me for being an athiest and I would recieve eternal salvation along with his most devoted followers.

If I were to be damned to Hell for not believing in God, then he is not all loving and therefore pretty much everyone that goes to church regularly is just as screwed as me unless they are perfect. So why would God give a shit whether or not I acknowledge his existance?

quote:If Jesus was all love then he wouldn't send anyone to Hell, now would he? Isn't the definition of love forgiving someone irregardless of what they've done?

So if a Christian God were to exist (hypothetically), and he were to be all loving, then he would forgive me for being an athiest and I would recieve eternal salvation along with his most devoted followers.

If I were to be damned to Hell for not believing in God, then he is not all loving and therefore pretty much everyone that goes to church regularly is just as screwed as me unless they are perfect. So why would God give a shit whether or not I acknowledge his existance?



Nobody goes to hell except those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. IMO, the only way you can do that is by committing suicide. That is the ultimate "fuck you".



[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 02-18-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

If you accept the fact that Jesus = love then you'll realize your entire post was useless.

It's useless to quote the actual words of the Bible if we take for granted that "Jesus = love" because you say so? Is that really how you think it works?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Jesus told one of his disciples that if a person had no knowledge of Jesus the person, but believed in love, then they believed in Jesus.

That doesn't help those of us who have the stories of Jesus yet don't believe, does it? We are still doomed to Hellfire for the unforgivable sin of doubt. After knowing that, anyone who accepts your equation of Jesus = love as being true is simply deluded.

Can you cite where in the Bible Jesus actually says this?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Nobody goes to hell except those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. IMO, the only way you can do that is by committing suicide. That is the ultimate "fuck you".



So what is the point in going to church every sunday?

From my observations, it appears as though Christianity is just a crappy version of Pure Land Buddhism.

quote:It's useless to quote the actual words of the Bible if we take for granted that "Jesus = love" because you say so? Is that really how you think it works?



No, because Jesus said it.

quote:That doesn't help those of us who have the stories of Jesus yet don't believe, does it? We are still doomed to Hellfire for the unforgivable sin of doubt. After knowing that, anyone who accepts your equation of Jesus = love as being true is simply deluded.



Not true, there really is no hell and everyone will be forgiven in the end. Jesus talked about this in the "secret teachings", or the Gnostic texts which got banned from the Bible since the authorities didn't like people contradicting the orthodox.

quote:Can you cite where in the Bible Jesus actually says this?



Yes, it will take a minute though, so hold on.

quote:So what is the point in going to church every sunday?



There is no point.

[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 02-18-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Nobody goes to hell except those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Should I begin to quote a ton of Bible verses that prove you wrong, or do you want to take that back?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Not true, there really is no hell and everyone will be forgiven in the end. Jesus talked about this in the "secret teachings", or the Gnostic texts which got banned from the Bible since the authorities didn't like people contradicting the orthodox.

Oh brother. So all of the Bible verses regarding Hell came from where? You have knowledge of what Jesus really said and everything else in the Bible regarding Hell is the made up part? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Care to share some?

Would you please stop quoting people without mentioning who you're quoting from? It makes for a sloppy thread and it's hard to keep track of who said what. Thanks.

quote:

Should I begin to quote a ton of Bible verses that prove you wrong, or do you want to take that back?



Quote away brother.

quote:Oh brother. So all of the Bible verses regarding Hell came from where?



Distortion and perversion by the hand of man.

quote:You have knowledge of what Jesus really said and everything else in the Bible regarding Hell is the made up part? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Care to share some?



Oh, yes indeed! Everyone should read the "secret texts", and THEN read the bible!

Enjoy http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html)

quote:Would you please stop quoting people without mentioning who you're quoting from? It makes for a sloppy thread and it's hard to keep track of who said what. Thanks.



If you don't remember your own words, then I pity you.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Quote away brother.

I guess I shouldn't bother, since you go on to claim that they are "Distortion and perversion by the hand of man". What you haven't yet done is show us how one goes about picking and choosing what has been distorted, what hasn't, and how you know which supposed 'secret texts' are accurate.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Oh, yes indeed! Everyone should read the "secret texts", and THEN read the bible!

Citing an entire website explains nothing and is a cop out. Explain how you know that the verse that says those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will go to Hell is genuine and the others aren't.



quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Nobody goes to hell except those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Not true, there really is no hell and everyone will be forgiven in the end.

^ Those two quotes don't quite jibe now, do they?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

If you don't remember your own words, then I pity you.

Are you really that dense? Not all of the quotes are mine and it would be nice if everyone reading knew who you were quoting from, especially when you quote from multiple posters in the same post. I asked nicely for a little common netiquette, but you had to be a jerk about it.

quote:

I guess I shouldn't bother, since you go on to claim that they are "Distortion and perversion by the hand of man".



Are you saying that the Bible has not been tampered with?

quote:What you haven't yet done is show us how one goes about picking and choosing what has been distorted, what hasn't, and how you know which supposed 'secret texts' are accurate.



Those who know the truth, see the truth. Those who see lies are trapped in darkness and stumble around in confusion.

Specifically about the Gnostic texts, if you would have read about how they were found, I doubt you would really worry about them being fake/tampered with.

There is really no motivation for anyone to tamper with them, as the authorities and orthodox churches don't accept them anyway.

quote:Citing an entire website explains nothing and is a cop out.



No, being provided information and not doing your own research is a cop out. However, I will provide the verses as soon as I find them. I'm getting a bit distracted by Luke though, so many good parables...I don't understand why the Bible is so hard for people to read. I can't bring myself to put it down. http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

quote:^ Those two quotes don't quite jibe now, do they?



Heh, my bad. I should have written everyone except those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It doesn't exactly go into detail what blasphemy is, but it's my theory that suicide is the only real blasphemy.

quote:

Are you really that dense? Not all of the quotes are mine and it would be nice if everyone reading knew who you were quoting from, especially when you quote from multiple posters in the same post.



If you can't recognize your own words, you have no memory. If you can't recognize that any other words besides yours are someone else's, then you have no memory and a large ego.

Either way, it doesn't really matter who said what. Words should stand on their own.

quote:I asked nicely for a little common netiquette, but you had to be a jerk about it.



Fine, I'm sorry, I will state who said what, but I'm not going to have the "originally posted by..." because that's a major inconvience when I'm trying to quote specific parts.

Is that acceptable?

all the above quotes were by xray.

[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 02-18-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

So I was thinking (which usually bodes poorly for me) about Jesus and love. If Jesus is the physical manifestation of God's love, that mean Christ is basically love. It is said in the Gospels that all who believe in Christ and follow his will shall be granted eternal life in heaven etc, etc.

Assuming the Gospels and everything they state is true (I'm not talking about the rest of the Bible, ignore everything else for a moment), then practicing love (read compassion, good-will) is practicing faith in Christ. So perhaps the Church as a group of dedicated followers is superfluous provided that they only come together to worship. Perhaps a Christian need not have faith in Christ as a physical and divine being but Christ as a representation and symbol of love?

This is all stated on the premise that the Gospels are true. I'm not saying they are or aren't, just hypothetically. Neither am I looking for an argument about the validity of Christianity, but about the "truthiness" of this speed-induced theory. Any major cracks in this idea, totse?

Interesting you should post this as I have just finished reading The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus 'The' Christ by Levi H. Dowling and he says pretty much as you have asked. He asserts Jesus was an advanced soul perfected thru many lives to be a vessel of the Love of God. Here's a quotation: "The word Christ is derived from the Greek word Kristos and means anointed. It is identical with the Hebrew word Messiah. The word Christ, per se, does not refer to any particular person; every anointed person is christed. When the definite article 'the' is place before the word christ a definite personality is indicated, and this personality is none other than a member of the Trinity, the Son who had a glory with he Father-Mother before the worlds were formed.

According to the teachings of all ancient masters this Son is Love; so the Christ is Love, and Love is God, since God is Love."

In a nutshell Levi says that when a person takes on Love as their guide that person becomes a Christ like Jesus was/is.

quote:And Jesus said, I cannot show the king, unless you see with eyes of soul, because the kingdom of the king is in the soul. And every soul a kingdom is. There is a king for every man. This king is love, and when this love becomes the greatest power in life it is the Christ; so Christ is king. And every one may have this Christ dwell in his soul, as Christ dwells in my soul, the body is the temple of the king, and men may call a holy man a king. He who will cleanse his mortal form and make it pure, so pure that love and righteousness may dwell unsullied side by side within its walls, is king. The kings of earth are clothed in royal robes, and sit in state that men may stand in awe of them. A king of heaven may wear a fisher’s garb; may sit in mart of trade; may till the soil, or be a gleaner in the field; may be a slave in mortal chains; may be adjudged a criminal by men; may languish in a prison cell; may die upon a cross. Men seldom see what others truly are. The human senses sense what seems to be, and that which seems to be, and that which is, may be diverse in every way. The carnal man beholds the outer man, which is the temple of the king, and worships at his shrine. The man of God is pure in heart; he sees the king; he sees with eyes of soul; and when he rises to the level of Christine consciousness, he knows that he himself is king, is love, is Christ, and so is son of God.



Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

hell, after that extraordinary quote, I don't think I even NEED to find the verse I'm talking about, but I'll do it anyway.

in response to redzed's post.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Are you saying that the Bible has not been tampered with?

No. You're the one claiming that blasphemers go to Hell because that quote from the Bible is accurate, while claiming that the ones that claim many others also go to Hell are inaccurate. I'm asking how you know which quotes are genuine and which aren't and you're dodging the question.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Those who know the truth, see the truth. Those who see lies are trapped in darkness and stumble around in confusion.

Of course, you're the enlightened one. Now when are you going to tell us how you know what in the Bible is inaccurate, what is accurate, and why certain 'secret texts' are accurate?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

There is really no motivation for anyone to tamper with them, as the authorities and orthodox churches don't accept them anyway.

That's not a very compelling argument for why supposed holy texts contain truth.



quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

No, being provided information and not doing your own research is a cop out.

No, not answering how you know what is accurate and inaccurate in the Bible and linking to an entire website is a cop out. I shouldn't have to sift through it all to find the answer to how you know the quote about blasphemers going to Hell is accurate, while all the other quotes regarding who will go to Hell are inaccurate. I have a feeling your site doesn't answer that question satisfactorily at all.

quote:Nobody goes to hell except those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

quote:Not true, there really is no hell and everyone will be forgiven in the end.

^ Are you going to explain that contradiction?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Heh, my bad. I should have written everyone except those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It doesn't exactly go into detail what blasphemy is, but it's my theory that suicide is the only real blasphemy

So, there is a Hell just for those who commit suicide? Wow! Still waiting for you to explain how you know the quote about blasphemers going to Hell is accurate and all other quotes about who also goes to Hell aren't.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Love fades.

Negative. Romance and affection fade. Love, based on compassion and self-sacrifice is self-renewing.

quote:Originally posted by xray:



Should I begin to quote a ton of Bible verses that prove you wrong, or do you want to take that back?

If you don't, I will. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I'm looking for time to kill at work.