It really seems that way to me at least. Over the last few months I've been having periodic debates through facebook with a dedicated christian (I'm atheist) about different aspects of his religion and the like. Anytime I mention anything fucked up in the bible, and it has to do with the old testament, he throws it aside as if it doesn't exist. I don't understand how a person can be so devoted to their faith and yet disregard major aspects of it. Whether they like it or not, the old testament is there, and it is filled with an angry god telling its followers to kill others who do not worship him.



[This message has been edited by gmail (edited 02-27-2007).]

Because the God of the OT and the God of the NT are two completely different Gods.

As George Orwell said, if you want to find the cause of Anti-Semitism in the world, read the OT.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Because the God of the OT and the God of the NT are two completely different Gods.

When he means Christians, I don't think he means Gnostics, but those who believe in the "mainstream" for of Christianity that is canonical and preached at churches.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

When he means Christians, I don't think he means Gnostics, but those who believe in the "mainstream" for of Christianity that is canonical and preached at churches.

"The people get what they deserve, not what they demand - unless we decide to be a business, not a band" - agent orange

and either way, most orthodox Christians will tell you that the OT doesn't apply anymore after Jesus was crucified and ressurected. he fufilled the law, and now is the age of spirit.

case in point: Peter having the vision that he can kill anythiing and eat it. Nothing is unclean.

direct contradiction of the OT.

[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 02-27-2007).]

I don't understand how a person can be so devoted to their faith and yet disregard major aspects of it.

The OT was replaced with the NT because religion evolved with the culture.

Just like Reason is slowly inching it's way into mainstream society today, and those who were once considered stoutly religious are now more laid-back about the Word. They're more comfortable accepting that there are just some portions of it that cannot be taken literally. These are called Christian Moderates.

They're free to go a step further to reconcile what is known in modern times to be false (Young Earth, for example) yet still cling to other portions of the Bible.

The year is 2050. The current bestseller that stays on the list for the next thousand years is aptly titled:

THE REVISED TESTAMENT, VERSION 3.0

It'll just keep flowing with the times. Belief in Belief will never die out, it'll just keep morphing into what is most easily digestible to the masses.

[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 02-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

"The people get what they deserve, not what they demand - unless we decide to be a business, not a band" - agent orange

and either way, most orthodox Christians will tell you that the OT doesn't apply anymore after Jesus was crucified and ressurected. he fufilled the law, and now is the age of spirit.

case in point: Peter having the vision that he can kill anythiing and eat it. Nothing is unclean.

direct contradiction of the OT.



Quite right.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

"The people get what they deserve, not what they demand - unless we decide to be a business, not a band" - agent orange

and either way, most orthodox Christians will tell you that the OT doesn't apply anymore after Jesus was crucified and ressurected. he fufilled the law, and now is the age of spirit.

case in point: Peter having the vision that he can kill anythiing and eat it. Nothing is unclean.

direct contradiction of the OT.



Fulfilled what law? And what is the 'age of spirit' you speak of?

Also, just coz Peter had a vision about eating unclean animals, how does that mean anyone from that time onward is allowed to eat unclean animals in real life?

Plz explain, I don't have a detailed knowledge of the bible/christian beliefs

quote:Originally posted by Whore of God:

Fulfilled what law? And what is the 'age of spirit' you speak of?

Also, just coz Peter had a vision about eating unclean animals, how does that mean anyone from that time onward is allowed to eat unclean animals in real life?

Plz explain, I don't have a detailed knowledge of the bible/christian beliefs

It appears you actually have absolutely NO knowledge...

Please, I'm not here to teach. Pick up the New Testament (I've got a really nice copy of the NIV).

quote:Originally posted by Whore of God:

Fulfilled what law? And what is the 'age of spirit' you speak of?

Also, just coz Peter had a vision about eating unclean animals, how does that mean anyone from that time onward is allowed to eat unclean animals in real life?

Plz explain, I don't have a detailed knowledge of the bible/christian beliefs



I'll give you a quick answer, but, like Rizzo says, you should really read the Bible closely yourself. It'll stop haveing to listen to other peoples opinions on the text.

I'm on vaguely clear on what it means by Jesus fulfilling the law. My interpretation of it is that the Law that God gave man is... Comepleted by Jesus. It's like saying that this has come to an end the usefulness of this has passed. Although the Law shouldn't be discarded comepletely , it should still be used as a guide. Once again, I'm not completely clear on this, so I'm quite probaly wrong.

To answer about Peter's vision; God (or a messenger) comes to Peter in a vision, telling him that nothing God has made is unclean, so as to say that nothing that God has made is Bad in itself. In this way God allows us to both eat whatever we like , but I also think it's God's way of accepting the non-circumsised Christians, showing that belief in Christ and God is all that is neccesary, that alll the rituals are there not for God but for us to make it easier to put faith in him.

Or at least that's my interpratation, and it has been a while since I've read the Bible...

Did Jesus actually say any of this though or was this just a pr move by his successors to gain more followers?

It's seems more likely the latter then the former as there are Christians who believe OT law is still relevant and should be followed.

considering the bible was originally in Aramaic and Greek and translated MANY times, by hand, to and from various languages, it is doubtful that any of the original context is even valid. Like the term "Son of God". It originally meant a person devoted to God and was not taken literally. It is now, though.

One of the many reasons I believe the bible to be nothing more than a morality tale.

Im a christian and i do not disregard the old testament for with out understanding the old understanding the new is impossible! the reasoning for some is that they dont know it well enough to respond and that is what i think some christians of today lack the knowledge of!(but it seems today everyone is a slacker)

quote:Originally posted by gmail:

It really seems that way to me at least. Over the last few months I've been having periodic debates through facebook with a dedicated christian (I'm atheist) about different aspects of his religion and the like. Anytime I mention anything fucked up in the bible, and it has to do with the old testament, he throws it aside as if it doesn't exist. I don't understand how a person can be so devoted to their faith and yet disregard major aspects of it. Whether they like it or not, the old testament is there, and it is filled with an angry god telling its followers to kill others who do not worship him.



then learn not to understand, your so reliant on logic you freeze up without it.



fuckin monkkeys http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

edit:to answer your question, They just jus dis the pas cuz da future is bleak for theiy fed up beaks. Christians accomplish nothing, the popes just have big mouths, if they could listen, they might just get things done.



RACE FOR THE KOOLAID/

jokks

[This message has been edited by Florida Snow (edited 03-03-2007).]

he believes as some christians do that the Old Testament has no bearing on christianity as when Jesus came and died it removes the old covenant and you get a new testament, that is an agreement with god. testament=covenant

so according to his beliefs he is justified in ignoring the old testament

though I do advise that when debating christians do not use the Bible, as it is pretty pro-christian

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

As George Orwell said, if you want to find the cause of Anti-Semitism in the world, read the OT.

I don't get it... the OT came from parts of the Koran, the Jewish bible... I understand how it happened, but I think its silly that those people could read it so literally and deeply, without remembering that it came from Judaism, just like their religion, and their messiah.

war is peace folks, you get what you put it in for fuck seck.

I wouldn't ignore the old testament if I was a christian. It's the most metal part of the bible.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

considering the bible was originally in Aramaic and Greek and translated MANY times, by hand, to and from various languages, it is doubtful that any of the original context is even valid. Like the term "Son of God". It originally meant a person devoted to God and was not taken literally. It is now, though.

One of the many reasons I believe the bible to be nothing more than a morality tale.



That kind of explains a lot... do you have proof of that? I want to read it and show it to some people (or some annoyingly devout/narrow minded christians) I know.

Wasn't the Bible also written like 80 years after his death, because they thought the Apocalypse was imminent?

quote:Originally posted by avivsworld:



That kind of explains a lot... do you have proof of that? I want to read it and show it to some people (or some annoyingly devout/narrow minded christians) I know.

Wasn't the Bible also written like 80 years after his death, because they thought the Apocalypse was imminent?

It has been documented by many people, I just dont have the sources right this second. Ill look em up when i am not tired.

And yes, the bible was started long after Jesus's death. The other thing that a lot of christians dont know is that there are a lot of books that were left out of the bible, and if it were included, would have produced a religion much different than the one we see today. Look up gnostic gospels when you get a chance and youll see what I mean. The gospel of Judas would be an interesting read, dont you think?



EDIT: Here (http://tinyurl.com/2nbn49) is one source as to the original languages of the bible

And the whole "son of god" thing is like today, where followers of christianity call themselves "children of god". They think that they are created by god, but not literally the children of god. Ill find a source about this.

[This message has been edited by dead_people_killer (edited 03-03-2007).]

Actually, according to Jesus you're supposed to follow all the OT laws, and those who wish to enter the kingdom of heaven bust exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees (5:17-20). Look it up.

I found this (http://tinyurl.com/yqh9jx) page that demonstrates the translation problems perfectly.