Hey, so I understand that Christians are supposed to have full faith in god and not question his existance, but thinking abstractly for a moment... If something was shown to you that was able to undermine your faith in god:

Would you still be a conservative?

Would you still be moral?

I'm not a conservative Christian, but I can predict what the answer will be. Morality does not stem from religion, so yes.

Morality has to stem from some all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing God or it isn't morality at all. It's just what feels good at the time.

Morality existed before religion, and it will exist after religion.

Wait, even better:

Morality has existed despite religion.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Morality existed before religion, and it will exist after religion.

Wait, even better:

Morality has existed despite religion.

Uh, proof, please?

Just because you say you're moral, doesn't mean you are.

Utilitarianism does just fine without religion, and it fits all the necessities generally accepted to be required to be a normative theory of ethics.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Morality has to stem from some all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing God or it isn't morality at all. It's just what feels good at the time.

What is the difference between what feels good at the time and morality?

quote:Originally posted by fallinghouse:

What is the difference between what feels good at the time and morality?

Sometimes it can be really hard to pick dumb people out from sarcastic people on this forum.

Sometimes the dumb questions are most important.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Morality has to stem from some all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing God or it isn't morality at all. It's just what feels good at the time.

So you can't have compassion and respect for other humans without grandpa in the sky telling you to? Or wouldn't that give you any excuses to hate people?

quote:Originally posted by fallinghouse:

What is the difference between what feels good at the time and morality?



Okay, well doing what felt good all the time is what you would do immediately if you didn't have any morals; however, the majority of people live by some moral code, whether religious or not, they believe in some purpose in leaving the world with some positive aspect of their existance behind. This code they live by, which separates immediate pleasures from purpose beyond ones self is called their morals.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Uh, proof, please?

Just because you say you're moral, doesn't mean you are.

Prove to me that religious leaders and conservative Christians are moral. Doing something good out of fear of burning in hell for eternity doesn't seem very moral to me.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Uh, proof, please?

Just because you say you're moral, doesn't mean you are.

Morality is relative, and therefore, Someone's morals, however fucked up, may be different from yours.

I personally think killing someone in certain situations is morally ok. However, you may be a person who believes "Thou shalt not kill" and sticks to it. Its simple a difference of morals, and where they come from.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Prove to me that religious leaders and conservative Christians are moral. Doing something good out of fear of burning in hell for eternity doesn't seem very moral to me.

Infact that tells me the person is insane and has NO morals.

Different discourses have different moral frameworks. From this they derive good and bad, based on what they value most ie. getting into heaven, social stability, having fun.

If you put a foreign definition of good into your framework, unless you have a particularly open one, you will come to the conclusion that it does not work. That they are not, in fact, good at all. This is because your framework was designed for your definitions. Likewise, when others place you into their moral frameworks, they will usually deduce that you are not in fact good.

This explains Rizzo not recognizing Hedonism (or any human created systems for that matter) as a morality.

This explains Pinball asserting that morality is in opposition to religion.

This explains the various people concluding that religious morals are not morals at all.

This discussion has been an attempt to assert that our own moral framework is better than everyone else's. Curiously, none of our frameworks are provable.

ugh, no i'd go commit suicide considering the fact with out a god thier is no importance to life nor importance to the universe! but it is impossible to disprove God or any religion(well most)so that will never happen!

ps. your a bitch!

[This message has been edited by Masta Thief (edited 03-01-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

ugh, no i'd go commit suicide considering the fact with out a god thier is no importance to life nor importance to the universe! but it is impossible to disprove God or any religion(well most)so that will never happen!

ps. your a bitch!



You must have a really tiny penis and a really tiny brain to be this stupid and angry all at the same time.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

You must have a really tiny penis and a really tiny brain to be this stupid and angry all at the same time.

ok id like to see you prove me wrong!?!

ps. go fuck your sister!

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Morality has to stem from some all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing God or it isn't morality at all. It's just what feels good at the time.

Morality is a preference too.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

Morality is relative, and therefore, Someone's morals, however fucked up, may be different from yours.



Morality is relative to humans. That doesn't make all moralities correct. If it's part of my morality to kill you, is it still acceptable for me to do this because it's my subjective way of life?

I'm not saying who's wrong and who's right, only that there is a wrong and right regardless of what different people believe.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

ugh, no i'd go commit suicide considering the fact with out a god thier is no importance to life nor importance to the universe! but it is impossible to disprove God or any religion(well most)so that will never happen!

ps. your a bitch!



I would send you to councilling and psychiatric help immediatly. If there are lots of people like you I cant wait for the day science disproves god. We dont need people like you on this planet.

I dont think there is a god. Therefor I plan on living this live to its full extent, and to do that i also have to help as many other people life there life to the full extent and happiness aswell. I cant be happy if everybody around are grumpy suicidal fucks.

If your so intent on believing in the afterlife why dont you just die right now. You'll get to heaven sooner. We dont need you down here on this mud ball of a planet. Cya later have a ncie afterlife.!

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Morality is relative to humans. That doesn't make all moralities correct. If it's part of my morality to kill you, is it still acceptable for me to do this because it's my subjective way of life?

I'm not saying who's wrong and who's right, only that there is a wrong and right regardless of what different people believe.

But you're saying that from your point of view that murder is always wrong.

Without a God, where is this morality? Where does it come from? Sure, there are loads of normative theories, but they only work if you accept them and even then they differ greatly.

There are no things like Plato's Good in itself.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

But you're saying that from your point of view that murder is always wrong.

Without a God, where is this morality? Where does it come from? Sure, there are loads of normative theories, but they only work if you accept them and even then they differ greatly.

There are no things like Plato's Good in itself.

i thought you were a lib?

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

i thought you were a lib?

I'm a libertarian/anarcho-capitalist.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

But you're saying that from your point of view that murder is always wrong.

Without a God, where is this morality? Where does it come from? Sure, there are loads of normative theories, but they only work if you accept them and even then they differ greatly.



Not even. I'm saying that from the point of view that states "That which harms me is bad." If somebody is going to kill/injure me because his morality tells him, not because I harmed him, of course I'll think it's wrong. That's not philosophy, just instinct.

I do believe in God and I do believe in a single morality, I'm just unsure as to what that morality is.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Not even. I'm saying that from the point of view that states "That which harms me is bad." If somebody is going to kill/injure me because his morality tells him, not because I harmed him, of course I'll think it's wrong. That's not philosophy, just instinct.

I don't disagree with you there, and neither would moral relativism... you dislike it, then you place the moral value on it because you consider things you dislike to be bad. That's not saying they're bad in themselves however, that's just your subjective perspective, as opposed to objective perspective. I really doubt it applies to everyone too, because there probably are people out there who consider being hurt good.

Just because it psychologically pains an individual to see two men kissing does not mean homosexuality is objectively bad.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-02-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

I don't disagree with you there, and neither would moral relativism... you dislike it, then you place the moral value on it because you consider things you dislike to be bad. That's not saying they're bad in themselves however, that's just your subjective perspective, as opposed to objective perspective. I really doubt it applies to everyone too, because there probably are people out there who consider being hurt good.

Just because it psychologically pains an individual to see two men kissing does not mean homosexuality is objectively bad.



Hmm...interesting point. I admit defeat.

[This message has been edited by King_Cotton (edited 03-02-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

I don't disagree with you there, and neither would moral relativism... you dislike it, then you place the moral value on it because you consider things you dislike to be bad. That's not saying they're bad in themselves however, that's just your subjective perspective, as opposed to objective perspective. I really doubt it applies to everyone too, because there probably are people out there who consider being hurt good.

Just because it psychologically pains an individual to see two men kissing does not mean homosexuality is objectively bad.





see this is what people dont understand! We do not decide wether something is immoral or moral, it not the same as right and wrong! Its hard for me to explain this but ill try. Murder is immorally wrong no matter if some one thinks its not its not an oppinion that is up for debate! but if a culture practices murder and you live in that culture then you dont think murder as something your doing wrong! but that still does not change that it is morraly wrong even if the culture says it isnt!

i know its confusing to understand but realize its really hard to try and explain!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



see this is what people dont understand! We do not decide wether something is immoral or moral, it not the same as right and wrong! Its hard for me to explain this but ill try. Murder is immorally wrong no matter if some one thinks its not its not an oppinion that is up for debate! but if a culture practices murder and you live in that culture then you dont think murder as something your doing wrong! but that still does not change that it is morraly wrong even if the culture says it isnt!

i know its confusing to understand but realize its really hard to try and explain!

Wouldn't it be acceptable because the people don't know any better? Just like it's fine by Christians for salvation's sake if some kid in say, Sudan, to not believe in Jesus because he's never heard of they guy?

So it's an excusable wrong.

free will. What would you rather do, blather like a zombie in the forest of meat or go for a walk and enjoy its synchronicity, have a chat with the beez and then blow your fuckin brains out/smoke a bowl.

>

Yhm?

quote:Originally posted by Florida Snow:

free will. What would you rather do, blather like a zombie in the forest of meat or go for a walk and enjoy its synchronicity, have a chat with the beez and then blow your fuckin brains out/smoke a bowl.

>

Yhm?

I didn't realize I was saving myself from zombieism by smoking pot. Thanks for the heads up.

Fight Zombies! Smoke a bowl!

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Morality is relative to humans. That doesn't make all moralities correct. If it's part of my morality to kill you, is it still acceptable for me to do this because it's my subjective way of life?

I'm not saying who's wrong and who's right, only that there is a wrong and right regardless of what different people believe.

Actually, its completely relative. A psychopath may see murder as ok, whereas you do not. It really is relative.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

Actually, its completely relative. A psychopath may see murder as ok, whereas you do not. It really is relative.

That's what I said. Humanity sees morality as relative, but if there's a god in the Christian sense, there has to be a correct code of ethics.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



see this is what people dont understand! We do not decide wether something is immoral or moral, it not the same as right and wrong! Its hard for me to explain this but ill try. Murder is immorally wrong no matter if some one thinks its not its not an oppinion that is up for debate! but if a culture practices murder and you live in that culture then you dont think murder as something your doing wrong! but that still does not change that it is morraly wrong even if the culture says it isnt!

i know its confusing to understand but realize its really hard to try and explain!

Bullshit. It's relativism and you know it.