If you have a look at this forum lately you would see a lot of athiests obviously. In Time magazing atheists don't even make up 5% of people in america. 75% of americans are involved with a christan religion of one denominations or another the largest denomination is evangelical christans.

Sorry to get off topic but just letting you know. Now we've all seen those sort of christan 7th day adventist people. Saying that who is not christan (or a certain christan denomination) will burn in the fiery pits of hell for eternity. I would imagine they're not particulary loved here. But atheists are becoming more like that.

Am I the only one here who doesn't see the point of of trying to disprove or mocking christanity or other religons? I mean if a person finds religon extremely helpful to his or her life whats so bad about that.

I don't see the point of mocking someone just because they choose religon.

P.S Don't give me bullshit like "Well ------ fo exactly the same thing." Doing the same thing as you're enemy does to get back at your enemy makes you as bad as your enemy.

Also we would still have turmoil in the world with or without religon.



[This message has been edited by siegmeow (edited 03-04-2007).]

Your the same guy that was bitching about how global warming skeptics get mocked. The reasons are the same. If you believe in something without evidence or logic, then your beliefs will be mocked. It's very simple.

Because the atheists are trying to help out the religious. What's wrong with trying to help a blind man see?

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Your the same guy that was bitching about how global warming skeptics get mocked. The reasons are the same. If you believe in something without evidence or logic, then your beliefs will be mocked. It's very simple.

Then by your logic you must get mocked a whole lot. And the whole global warming thing I call bullshit when I see bullshit.

P.S I am undecided about religon.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Because the atheists are trying to help out the religious. What's wrong with trying to help a blind man see?

You are actually the blind.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

You are actually the blind.

No, you are because you are wasting your only life worshiping an invisible spirit because a book written by Jews over 2 millennia tells you to.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

No, you are because you are wasting your only life worshiping an invisible spirit because a book written by Jews over 2 millennia tells you to.

How is it a waste and even if it is who cares.

and i dont worship god because a book tells me to stop being so stupid and think for yourself,stop belieiving that the "christians" that u meet make up 100% of people who follow God.

Oh, I'm sorry. Which religion do you practice? Because Christianity is the least absurd religion in my opinion.

I guess you worship Zeus or somebody. That makes you so much better now.

I would also like to refer you to another topic of mine:

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum9/HTML/008570.html

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

No, you are because you are wasting your only life worshiping an invisible spirit because a book written by Jews over 2 millennia tells you to.

Not all spiritual people are spiritual because of a book. (and I use the word spiritual because I think religion is destroying the advancement of spirituality)

I personally have no tangible proof of God, nor do i need tangible proof. What I have personally experiences is proof enough for me. I dont expect anyone else to believe in what I believe, nor do I force my belief on anyone else, but athiests telling me I am stupid for believing in something "because a book written by Jews over 2 millennia tells you to" is simply insulting at the very least.

Besides, the spirituality that I practice is not one where my God requires worship, like some insecure dictator, rather, is one where that God walks with me on my journey through life, as a friend and a companion.

[This message has been edited by dead_people_killer (edited 03-04-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Oh, I'm sorry. Which religion do you practice? Because Christianity is the least absurd religion in my opinion.

I guess you worship Zeus or somebody. That makes you so much better now.

I would also like to refer you to another topic of mine:

http:/ /www.totse .com/bbs/F orum9/HTML/008570.html (http: //www.tots e.com/bbs/ Forum9/HTM L/008570.h tml)

I expected something like this from you it dosnt even deserve my response so you better be happy im writing this.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

Besides, the spirituality that I practice is not one where my God requires worship, like some insecure dictator, rather, is one where that God walks with me on my journey through life, as a friend and a companion.

That "feeling" you have isn't God. It's your conscious.

Atheists as a group do not hate anyone. Atheism does not promote hate.

Atheists do not do anything like those christians. They do not preach that everyone who doesn't think like them is going to burn in hell. A few of them may go out of their way to argue with people, but again, atheism is not a religion and doesn't have an agenda to save people. They want everyone to think the same way, but that's just because they think they are correct. They want everyone to think correctly.

People debate things on here because this is a religious debate forum. It's like walking into a creationist convention and getting mad because the people there are intelligent. They go hand in hand. If you don't like it get out.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Atheists as a group do not hate anyone. Atheism does not promote hate.



My religeon teaches to hate the sin but not the sinner.We are to love everyone.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

That "feeling" you have isn't God. It's your conscious.



Yeah, you can tell me what my feeling is.

Arrogant asshole.

You're the ignoramus who believes that God is "walking beside you." http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Your username reflects your intelligence.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

My religeon teaches to hate the sin but not the sinner.We are to love everyone.

I suppose burning in hell is pretty loving after all.

quote:Originally posted by Kooper0:

I suppose burning in hell is pretty loving after all.

I dont see how sinners burning in hell contradics the statement i just made.Plz go be an arrogant ass somewhere else,may i recommend half baked you will fit right in.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

You're the ignoramus who believes that God is "walking beside you." http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Your username reflects your intelligence.

I have had experiences that you cant, because of your closed-mindedness, begin to understand. I have seen things that your limited mind couldnt explain away in a thousand lifetimes. I dont expect people like you to understand or comprehend what I know to be true, simply because you assume if there is no tangible proof, it must be false.

I, however, dont claim that you are less of a person for not believing in what I believe. I expect the same from you.

Oh, and about the username-intelligence relationship, I wouldnt go saying anything to anyone else until you find an intelligent username for yourself first. Besides, I dont base usernames on anything but random thoughts at the time, so your argument is completely and totally invalid anyway.

quote:Originally posted by siegmeow:

[B]If you have a look at this forum lately you would see a lot of athiests obviously...........Also we would still have turmoil in the world with or without religon.B]

Wow, lotta words very little subject matter. You could have just said "athiests are like christian fundamentalists". See the problem is athiests aren't trying to remove evolution from childrens books and stop birth control from being readily avilable to the public, thats a bit facist for me but, if you think athiests are in the same ballpark as that you probably beleive in an invisible man in the sky.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

I have had experiences that you cant, because of your closed-mindedness, begin to understand. I have seen things that your limited mind couldnt explain away in a thousand lifetimes.

Jumping to the conclusion that seeing something that can't be explained proves the existence of God is a little bit unschooled, don't you think? Never mind, you don't think.

quote:Originally posted by blacksh33p18:

Wow, lotta words very little subject matter. You could have just said "athiests are like christian fundamentalists". See the problem is athiests aren't trying to remove evolution from childrens books and stop birth control from being readily avilable to the public, thats a bit facist for me but, if you think athiests are in the same ballpark as that you probably beleive in an invisible man in the sky.

Well you are the people shuving evolution down our throats and encouraging people to live impure and disease ridden life styles and giving ppls hard earned money to people who have never worked one day in there life so yes we are not in the same ballpark.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Jumping to the conclusion that seeing something that can't be explained proves the existence of God is a little bit unschooled, don't you think? Never mind, you don't think.

You do realize that you are proving the original point of this thread, yes?

Also, I never said that I have proven the existence of anything. However, until I find a better theory for what I have experienced, I will continue to believe what I believe.

Your simple assumptions have proven that YOU are the one devoid of the capacity of thinking.

Believing in a god that nobody else believes in doesn't make you spiritual or enlightened. It makes you a dumbass.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Believing in a god that nobody else believes in doesn't make you spiritual or enlightened. It makes you a dumbass.

Assuming that you are better than someone who believes different than you doesnt make you better. It makes you a tool.

It does make me better because your beliefs are so fucking illogical. How about I worship my remote control and see if anyone makes fun of me for that?

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

I dont see how sinners burning in hell contradics the statement i just made.Plz go be an arrogant ass somewhere else,may i recommend half baked you will fit right in.

So you would say your religion condemning people to eternal torment is still loving? Please go and be an idiot elsewhere.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

It does make me better because your beliefs are so fucking illogical. How about I worship my remote control and see if anyone makes fun of me for that?

Your belief that I am diluted and inferior because I believe different than you makes you an intolerant tool. I dont ridicule you because you believe different, because I personally dont care what you believe, as it doesnt personally affect me. But you, of course, HAVE to go out of your way to make sure you think you are better than me.

Actually, I take it back. You dont think you are better, you are simply incensed that I am happy in my beliefs and that you cannot alter them with your feeble attacks.

I really do hope you find something that makes you happy someday. In the meantime, you might want to seek some kind of therapy, as your mental enfeeblements are clear, and you obviously cannot overcome them on your own.

quote:Originally posted by siegmeow:

Also we would still have turmoil in the world with or without religon.



Of course we would. There are other sources of extremism such as nationalism, the need for natural resources, etc. But I have to speculate that there would be far, far less turmoil if religion were out of the picture.

quote:Originally posted by Kooper0:

So you would say your religion condemning people to eternal torment is still loving? Please go and be an idiot elsewhere.



My "religeon" does not condemn anyone.And you still fail to contradict what i said so plz stop being an arrogant ass trying to fight something you cant win.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

I have seen things that your limited mind couldnt explain away in a thousand lifetimes.

That's an interesting statement. I find it interesting because a schizophrenic could say the same and it would be equally true.

How do you know that the things you've seen are perceptually accurate?

What I'm wondering is what source of justification do you have for your beliefs? Is it merely your own sense experience? If someone does not perceive what you have perceived, does that make their mind 'limited', as you say? Could it be some type of illusion or hallucination possibly?

I'm not trying to be condescending, but I'm wondering under what circumstances these 'things' were perceived. Were you clear of mind when they were seen? If you could go into a little more detail on what you've experienced and what you've seen it would be greatly appreciated.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

That's an interesting statement. I find it interesting because a schizophrenic could say the same and it would be equally true.

How do you know that the things you've seen are perceptually accurate?

What I'm wondering is what source of justification do you have for your beliefs? Is it merely your own sense experience? If someone does not perceive what you have perceived, does that make their mind 'limited', as you say? Could it be some type of illusion or hallucination possibly?

I'm not trying to be condescending, but I'm wondering under what circumstances these 'things' were perceived. Were you clear of mind when they were seen? If you could go into a little more detail on what you've experienced and what you've seen it would be greatly appreciated.

To answer your question, no, I was not the only person to witness the things I am talking about. I was with a group of 3 like minded people.

I do not discount that it could have been some false perception, but 4 people, who are not on anything mind-altering, seeing the same thing?

As I have stated before, I dont claim it is proof of anything, but until I can find a better explanation for what I have seen, I will continue to believe it.

I would rather not go into what I saw, as it will simply fuel the "you are batshit insane" fire of the various athiests around that will use it against others with spiritual beliefs.

[This message has been edited by dead_people_killer (edited 03-04-2007).]

Belief in the paranormal does not prove the existence of a deity.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Belief in the paranormal does not prove the existence of a deity.

You are extremely dense, and have proven my earlier assertions that you are mentally feeble.

I have already explained to you that I do not claim that my experiences are proof. How dense can you be?

Until you produce a valid comment on my commentary, I fail to see a reason to continue to discuss this subject with you, as you clearly are not mentally capable of intelligent debate.

If you have no proof, then why do you believe it? You're the one who's mentally dense, dumbass. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by siegmeow:

Then by your logic you must get mocked a whole lot. And the whole global warming thing I call bullshit when I see bullshit.

P.S I am undecided about religon.



Not really, seeing has how my beliefs coincide with the experts. I also defend my beliefs by refuting any criticism against them. Something believers in religion and skeptics on global warming are unable to do.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

If you have no proof, then why do you believe it? You're the one who's mentally dense, dumbass. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I am sorry that you cannot cope with someone not bending to your will and realizing that they are wrong based on your petty attacks. I am happy and you cant deal with it. Because of this, you think I am somehow "dense".

It is you, sir, who are dense, simply for your inability to allow someone else to believe what they believe without trying to make them just like you. It it going to take someone much more intelligent than you (which isnt very hard, considering your mentally deficient state) to give me a good alternate explanation as to what I have experienced. So, continue, Mr. intolerant tool, to try to change my belief.

Arrogant ass.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

I have had experiences that you cant, because of your closed-mindedness, begin to understand. I have seen things that your limited mind couldnt explain away in a thousand lifetimes. I dont expect people like you to understand or comprehend what I know to be true, simply because you assume if there is no tangible proof, it must be false.

I hear this from Christians all the time. Always talking about how they've had 'experiences' or feelings and that's how they know God is there.

These are usually the ones that believe they can or have talked in "tongues". They think the reason why they cry and get overwhelming feelings at big religious events is because of 'God's presence' in the room.

Personally I think all of this is kind of like a placebo effect/being fooled by their own minds.

I'll give an example: There was this guy who thought I had some marijuana, when it was another plant. He rolled it up and smoked it, and was acting all stoned and thought he was actually high. As soon as I told him it was not marijuana, he instantly snapped out of it.

Now who's to say that sort of thing isn't happening to you, and your 'experiences' are false, a trick of the mind. You saw what you wanted to see and jumped to conclusions. Don't you think that could be possible?

(btw im not an atheist)





[This message has been edited by Whore of God (edited 03-04-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

I am sorry

It's ok.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

Because of this, you think I am somehow "dense".

This is true.



quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

Arrogant ass.

Whatever you want to be called! http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Maybe you should write a book since you are the only one who holds your belief. You could even convert people to your silly little religion and then shave your head and drink poisoned Kool-Aid.

quote:Originally posted by Whore of God:

I hear this from Christians all the time. Always talking about how they've had 'experiences' or feelings and that's how they know God is there.

These are usually the ones that believe they can or have talked in "tongues". They think the reason why they cry and get overwhelming feelings at big religious events is because of 'God's presence' in the room.

Personally I think all of this is kind of like a placebo effect/being fooled by their own minds.

I'll give an example: There was this guy who thought I had some marijuana, when it was another plant. He rolled it up and smoked it, and was acting all stoned and thought he was actually high. As soon as I told him it was not marijuana, he instantly snapped out of it.

Now who's to say that sort of thing isn't happening to you, and your 'experiences' are false, a trick of the mind. You saw what you wanted to see and jumped to conclusions. Don't you think that could be possible?

(btw im not an atheist)









I dont discount this, but considering I wasnt expecting anything at all, and formerly believed that there was no God, I dont exactly think that I was influenced by preconceived notions.

I do not, however, discount that what I have experienced is the work of forces different than what I believe. I have not been presented with a better explanation, however.

Regardless of beliefs:

1. We all have a right to espouse our opinions.

2. We all have a right to feel strong convictions for what we believe in.

It doesn't hurt my feelings when a Christian tells me that I am going to burn in hell for not believing. I don't view it as a lie, because they truly believe this, and are stating as much because they feel it is important to their way of life to convince non-believers of their "truth".

It shouldn't hurt your feelings when an Atheist tells you that they believe that your way of thinking is illogical and unnecessary. You shouldn't view it as a lie, because they truly believe this. They feel obligated to tell you as much, because it is important to them to have their voice heard.

For thousands of years, speaking against the belief in faith have gotten people persecuted, tortured, killed and ostracized by society. The times, they are a' changing. Religious people are going to have to just suck it up and realize that this small minority is gaining a voice, wants to be heard, and are no longer afraid to challenge the majority.

Could very well be the next big cultural divide - but change is imminent, and in all fairness, isn't it about time?

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Whatever you want to be called! http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Maybe you should write a book since you are the only one who holds your belief. You could even convert people to your silly little religion and then shave your head and drink poisoned Kool-Aid.

Wow, this just shows how defective your mind is. You must either force people to believe what you do or try to ridicule them with your petty, childish comebacks.

Sad really.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Regardless of beliefs:

1. We all have a right to espouse our opinions.

2. We all have a right to feel strong convictions for what we believe in.

It doesn't hurt my feelings when a Christian tells me that I am going to burn in hell for not believing. I don't view it as a lie, because they truly believe this, and are stating as much because they feel it is important to their way of life to convince non-believers of their "truth".

It shouldn't hurt your feelings when an Atheist tells you that they believe that your way of thinking is illogical and unnecessary. You shouldn't view it as a lie, because they truly believe this. They feel obligated to tell you as much, because it is important to them to have their voice heard.

For thousands of years, speaking against the belief in faith have gotten people persecuted, tortured, killed and ostracized by society. The times, they are a' changing. Religious people are going to have to just suck it up and realize that this small minority is gaining a voice, wants to be heard, and are no longer afraid to challenge the majority.

Could very well be the next big cultural divide - but change is imminent, and in all fairness, isn't it about time?



Oh, I dont discount him because he presents a different view than mine, as I used to believe what he does. Nor is it hurting my feelings. I have a few friends that are also atheists, and we have intelligent, thoughtful conversations about this very subject. I discount him because he presents his beliefs as a child would, with petty attacks and simpleton arguments. It is that simple.



[This message has been edited by dead_people_killer (edited 03-04-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

he presents his beliefs as a child would, with petty attacks and simpleton arguments.

I can't argue with that at all ... as much as I prefer siding with my "brethren".

There seems to be a bit of angst muddying up the waters of his debating skills.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I can't argue with that at all ... as much as I prefer siding with my "brethren".

There seems to be a bit of angst muddying up the waters of his debating skills.

I, obviously, agree.

I have no problem debating religion with people who bring intelligent points-of-view to the proceedings. I do not, however, find it valuable to debate people who present childish and inane attacks and petty criticisms to a conversation.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

I, obviously, agree.

I have no problem debating religion with people who bring intelligent points-of-view to the proceedings. I do not, however, find it valuable to debate people who present childish and inane attacks and petty criticisms to a conversation.

QFT, people shouldn't resort to personal attacks and ridicule

I completely agree with the OP.

However, I also agree that it is completely justified. At school, with friends, I tend to make people think. There are times without a doubt, I'm pushy as hell... but there is nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

If you're interested in my reasons why... look for my huge chunk of text in HERE: http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/006680.html

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

My "religeon" does not condemn anyone.And you still fail to contradict what i said so plz stop being an arrogant ass trying to fight something you cant win.

you said "hate the sin, not the sinner", Then why are you sending the SINNER to hell?

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

you said "hate the sin, not the sinner", Then why are you sending the SINNER to hell?

Im not sending them anywhere.

Pinball Mgruff you are making a good point for the thread starter.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Im not sending them anywhere.

lol, ok then.

I'd like to start out by saying that it's not how Christians act, it's what they're acting upon. The constant attacks, meddling in all aspects of society, pushing beliefs, etc... are the most affective ways to be heard, so it makes a lot of sense why atheists have adopted many of these methods. Would you switch to knives cause your enemy uses guns. I'm not to proud to use your tactics against you.

See Christians play a vast role in the dynamics of our society, and much of their affects I do not agree with, and must oppose to the best of my abilities cause I live in a democracy. My goal is to get as many people to think like me so that it can increase our influence on politics and law to make the world more desireable for myself and others like me. Christians could do all the things they do now in a world created around my vision, but I can't live how I wish to in your vision of how our society should function. No doubts about it, we are at war over the minds of the populous to gain influence in society. The whole plan is to fuck with your shit, don't you get it. We are purposely fucking with you, rideculing your beliefs, belittling you to the furthest extent of our abilities. Sucks doesn't it. Christians have been doing it for centuries, and now we have grown large enough to have a voice and we are gaining momentum and it scares you. I have the upmost confidence that you are indeed going to lose this battle.

Here in Canada, atheists are already starting to make an impact. With each passing decade the percentage of church goers has been decreasing by 15%. Eventually, as Canada continues to move forward and leave behind the constraints of Christianity, we will be seen as a success and the movement will spread south and eventually outward. You should feel threatened because we are the greatest threat to Christianity in it's history. I remember a time when atheist were sluffed off and disregarded, but now we are getting attention, and people our moving in our direction at an alarming rate.

An example of this is right her on this site. I'd say that half the people in this forum are atheists, and the other half Christian. Considering their should be a ratio 15:1 Christians to Atheists, we are representing ourselves much better and are even dominating most of the debates. This is a trend that will spread throughout society.

What about promoting unity between all parties I don't see alot of that even though it seems like the most intelligent thing to do.

Religion can be accounted for billions of deaths and the majority of the world's problems right now...I don't think we should let them off the hook. People killing people because they believe in a diffrent invisible person is a fucking problem.

Of course it's a problem but it's only going to be solved throug unity. Try focusing on talking with more moderate Christians if you want to make change because alot of Moderates don't like the way the faith is being hijacked plus Moderates hve no problem with atheists.

There was an episode of The Simpsons where Lisa is doing a project on Jebediah Springfield (the founder of the city in which they live) and she finds out that he was a "fake", he was a pirate for part of his life, and that he wasn't a person worth looking up to. When she had found this out, the 200th anniversary of the town was coming up and there was going to be a parade, celebrations, etc.

Lisa was going to make a speech to the entire town on the anniversary day, telling them that the person they looked up to was a fake and that he was am imposter. Just as she was about to say it, she looked at the crowd and saw the joy these celebrations brought to the people. She saw children smiling and waving flags and she saw how many people benefitted from this time.

She went on to say something along the lines of "Springfield being a great city and we should be proud of its founder".

I've to a number of websites where religion was being discussed and I've noticed that religious people are put down and atheists are always saying "show me proof" or "your beliefs aren't logical". I myself am guilty of that.

Thing is, religion can be a thing which gives people hope and gives them a purpose in life. It can be a thing which makes people happy, thinking they will be rewarded or will meet with God. If somebody believes in something you disagree with, I say let em, as long as they're not pushing their beliefs and as long as their beliefs aren't causing any harm. Tolerance and dialogue are key.

quote:Originally posted by Drox:

There was an episode of The Simpsons where Lisa is doing a project on Jebediah Springfield (the founder of the city in which they live) and she finds out that he was a "fake", he was a pirate for part of his life, and that he wasn't a person worth looking up to. When she had found this out, the 200th anniversary of the town was coming up and there was going to be a parade, celebrations, etc.

Lisa was going to make a speech to the entire town on the anniversary day, telling them that the person they looked up to was a fake and that he was am imposter. Just as she was about to say it, she looked at the crowd and saw the joy these celebrations brought to the people. She saw children smiling and waving flags and she saw how many people benefitted from this time.

She went on to say something along the lines of "Springfield being a great city and we should be proud of its founder".

I've to a number of websites where religion was being discussed and I've noticed that religious people are put down and atheists are always saying "show me proof" or "your beliefs aren't logical". I myself am guilty of that.

Thing is, religion can be a thing which gives people hope and gives them a purpose in life. It can be a thing which makes people happy, thinking they will be rewarded or will meet with God. If somebody believes in something you disagree with, I say let em, as long as they're not pushing their beliefs and as long as their beliefs aren't causing any harm. Tolerance and dialogue are key.

But that doesn't make it true. If a person wants to choose ignorance, that's their business, but I sure as shit aren't going to go through life being ignorant.

And religious beliefs do get pushed on me. And religious beliefs do get messed up in politics, causing harm.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

I dont see how sinners burning in hell contradics the statement i just made.Plz go be an arrogant ass somewhere else,may i recommend half baked you will fit right in.

If God is all-loving and all-merciful like the Bible says, then your idea of a hell can't exist.

If God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omnipresent then Hell (a malevolent place place where God is both absent, per Catholic doctrine) cannot exist. He must be lacking in one of those three qualities.

Well said Drox.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

But that doesn't make it true. If a person wants to choose ignorance, that's their business, but I sure as shit aren't going to go through life being ignorant.

And religious beliefs do get pushed on me. And religious beliefs do get messed up in politics, causing harm.

I understand that their beliefs may not be true but if that's what gives them hope/comfort/purpose/happiness and if they're not doing any harm, why take it away from them? You may consider them and their beliefs to be ignorant but they probably look at you the same way.

And let me ask you this, when beliefs get pushed on you, how do you respond?

quote:Originally posted by Drox:

I understand that their beliefs may not be true but if that's what gives them hope/comfort/purpose/happiness and if they're not doing any harm, why take it away from them? You may consider them and their beliefs to be ignorant but they probably look at you the same way.

And let me ask you this, when beliefs get pushed on you, how do you respond?

With taking your whole Simpsons episode into consideration, it was implied that you believe people should believe in something even if it isn't true, if it brings them comfort and makes them happy. I strongly disagree with that. I look at the state of American politics and that's my reason for wanting to 'take it away from them'.

As for what I do when their beliefs are pushed on me, well here's an example from awhile ago:

Fanatic: Sir! Sir! Excuse me, sir! Would you like a free copy of the Holy Bible?!

Me: No thanks.

Fanatic: Please! Please, take one! The wonderful words of Jesus Christ need to be heard. His love is eternal and everlasting!

Me: Nah, I don't really believe in that stuff.

Fanatic: Well then, I hope you're looking forward to a painful afterlife of suffering in the godless land of Hell.

Me: *walks away*

No, these confrontations don't happen everyday, or even every month, but they do happen. And no, his words are not an exaggeration on my part.

Yes, I am able to brush off his words rather easily, but I still don't need some crazed loony telling me I'm going to burn in Hell when I die.

If I was an atheist in the US i would be really pissed off. The way religion is getting into politics would piss me off severely.

At the least churches should be made to pay taxes if they want political influence. In order to get tax exempt status for a charity (which is what church's get it for) you are not permitted to take part in politics.

Churches seem to realize this in Canada and they would rather have there money then influence on the general population.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

With taking your whole Simpsons episode into consideration, it was implied that you believe people should believe in something even if it isn't true, if it brings them comfort and makes them happy. I strongly disagree with that. I look at the state of American politics and that's my reason for wanting to 'take it away from them'.



I see your point. I guess it depends on what they are believing in the first place. My example was rather small-scale not to mention fictional but when you go as far as the state of the American political system, it's something else.

In my honest opinion, those who want to change things need to get pissed off and yell at the crazies who try and convert us. We need to become a pain in the ass, an uncontrollable group that will not let Christianity run the world with lies and deception. We must fuck with everything they touch, infiltrate churches and turn the congregation against each other, spread our own views to the masses and not relent under any amount of pressure. If it means ripping the nations apart with a dream of a free world that is not subject to religious doctrine, an all out war on the faith that oppresses millions, we are obligated to liberate this world from this scourge that will continue to cage us and future generations. This isn't some harmless institution that has only brought good, it's an institution that has brought bad to those who do not follow and is being used to push a fascist system. The church is simply a front that looks good from the outside but is rotten on the inside. Even Jesus wouldn't support the modern church and the bigotry and hate that it plagues the world with. Any person who truly wants to be free must see Christianity as a threat to that value, a threat to our goals for a society that can function, a society that makes decisions through careful study and humanitarian conscience with a goal for doing what is best for the overall community. I myself will not give up until everyone sees the church for what it truly is and calls for it's dismantling. This is not something I can ever let slide, something I will ever accept in my life, and I hope others will do their part to save the lost souls from a viscious cycle that will never amount to peace on earth. I don't condone violence to push such a vision, but I do condone it if it's in self-defence of violence. Christianity started with a revolution and will end the same way. Get into politics, annoy the masses, educate the ignorant, and never give up. Eventually the Church will be exposed for the corruption of truth that it is, and become nothing more than a bad memory. You can believe in god, live your life well and support your community, but the institution is a threat to peace and must suffer the same fate as past religions.

^

That will never happen all you can (and should, because what your sugesting is just as vile) is try and talk to Moderates who in turn can hopefully change faith. It's people of faith who will change it. It's them who made it wrong. It's them who will fix it. I find it incredibly hard to believe a union of atheists will try and bring down the entire faith that is totally ridiculous. Also you will probably change your opinion because in your life you will run into people who have religious views who you have to work with and communicate with. Maybe one day you will realise they are just people with different (often virtuos and harmless) ideas then you. Why ruin it for the countless people it's helping? Speak out by all means but do it with an understanding of faith to people of faith. With an understanding of them as human and alot of them choosing the faith. Not some pseudo revolutionary teenage masturbation fantasy that will never happen.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

With taking your whole Simpsons episode into consideration, it was implied that you believe people should believe in something even if it isn't true, if it brings them comfort and makes them happy. I strongly disagree with that. I look at the state of American politics and that's my reason for wanting to 'take it away from them'.

As for what I do when their beliefs are pushed on me, well here's an example from awhile ago:

Fanatic: Sir! Sir! Excuse me, sir! Would you like a free copy of the Holy Bible?!

Me: No thanks.

Fanatic: Please! Please, take one! The wonderful words of Jesus Christ need to be heard. His love is eternal and everlasting!

Me: Nah, I don't really believe in that stuff.

Fanatic: Well then, I hope you're looking forward to a painful afterlife of suffering in the godless land of Hell.

Me: *walks away*

No, these confrontations don't happen everyday, or even every month, but they do happen. And no, his words are not an exaggeration on my part.

Yes, I am able to brush off his words rather easily, but I still don't need some crazed loony telling me I'm going to burn in Hell when I die.



Unfortunately, these are the majority of Christians. I am more than happy to discuss my beliefs, but the topic is more often than not broached by the other person, not me.

I honestly believe that these evangelical christians who run around telling you that you are going to hell for not believing as they do are simply stupid. The reason being is that they are going against a major tenement of christianity by judging others.

I, on behalf of all christians, radical and sane, would like to apologize to all atheists who have been accosted and badgered by these psychos on this subject, as I think it is wrong. I am more than willing to talk about my beliefs, I just dont push them on others or attack them when they believe different than me.

quote:I honestly believe that these evangelical christians who run around telling you that you are going to hell for not believing as they do are simply stupid. The reason being is that they are going against a major tenement of christianity by judging others.

Did... did you just judge evangelicals as stupid for judging people when you yourself just judged what they were doing as wrong and stupid?...

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

You are actually the blind.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

No, you are because you are wasting your only life worshiping an invisible spirit because a book written by Jews over 2 millennia tells you to.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

How is it a waste and even if it is who cares.

and i dont worship god because a book tells me to stop being so stupid and think for yourself,stop belieiving that the "christians" that u meet make up 100% of people who follow God.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Oh, I'm sorry. Which religion do you practice? Because Christianity is the least absurd religion in my opinion.

I guess you worship Zeus or somebody. That makes you so much better now.

I would also like to refer you to another topic of mine:

http:/ /www.totse .com/bbs/F orum9/HTML/008570.html (http: //www.tots e.com/bbs/ Forum9/HTM L/008570.h tml)

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

I expected something like this from you it dosnt even deserve my response so you better be happy im writing this.

I'd like to offer this as proof that everyone sucks.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Well you are the people shuving evolution down our throats and encouraging people to live impure and disease ridden life styles and giving ppls hard earned money to people who have never worked one day in there life so yes we are not in the same ballpark.

Uh oh, ya'll gone and done pulled me into this argument now, Billy-Bob. Seriously I thought people like you were too busy stocking up on ammunition for the apocalypse and making moonshine to care about atheists, anyway, what's with that?

To be perfectly honest I'm sure most intelligent people don't care whether you backwards-assed nutbars choose to believe in evolution or not, its just that if your going to go around preaching about how evil it is we'd prefer you do it locked up in a nature reserve where you belong.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

You are actually the blind.



O! O, BURN DID YOU SEE THAT! HE TOOK WHAT YOU SAID, AND SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE! BBBUUUURRRRNNN.



ok im done for now... Maby a little more...

burrnn

Ok i got it out of my system, anyways... I for one dont understand why these arguments always degenerate in to personal attacks, it seems to be a constant "im smart, your dumb, I win" and despite what they think, BOTH sides do it.



P.S.

+ 1 for this post and + 1 for canada

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

If I was an atheist in the US i would be really pissed off. The way religion is getting into politics would piss me off severely.

At the least churches should be made to pay taxes if they want political influence. In order to get tax exempt status for a charity (which is what church's get it for) you are not permitted to take part in politics.

Churches seem to realize this in Canada and they would rather have there money then influence on the general population.



[This message has been edited by perfect chaos (edited 03-06-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

Unfortunately, these are the majority of Christians. I am more than happy to discuss my beliefs, but the topic is more often than not broached by the other person, not me.

I honestly believe that these evangelical christians who run around telling you that you are going to hell for not believing as they do are simply stupid. The reason being is that they are going against a major tenement of christianity by judging others.

I, on behalf of all christians, radical and sane, would like to apologize to all atheists who have been accosted and badgered by these psychos on this subject, as I think it is wrong. I am more than willing to talk about my beliefs, I just dont push them on others or attack them when they believe different than me.

I might be wrong here, as in no way am I an expert on Christianity, but isn't one of the major things about Christianity is that you are suppose to go around and tell everyone possible about Christ and the Christian religion, or else you are not fulfilling your duty as a Christian?

So wouldn't this particular fellow I ran into just be following his religion extremely well?

Like I said though, I might be wrong here on the specifics of this.

Well, I believe the majority of problems that the christians have, is the simple fact that they actually take the bible literally. The bible is nothing more than a spiritual book of metaphors, just like any other spirtual text. Jesus wasn't actually the son of god, he was a enlightened man trying to show people our true nature, our natural state, and our identity beyond name and form.

There isn't devils and angels, there is negative emotions and ego identity. There isnt a big man in the heavens called god, god is not a being, god is being. Everything is part of god, and there is no life or death, just the transfering of energy or the spirit. Bassically, we are all part of this universal consciousness, which some call god, or others call being.

[This message has been edited by Dragon Slayer (edited 03-06-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Dragon Slayer:

Well, I believe the majority of problems that the christians have, is the simple fact that they actually take the bible literally. The bible is nothing more than a spiritual book of metaphors, just like any other spirtual text. Jesus wasn't actually the son of god, he was a enlightened man trying to show people our true nature, our natural state, and our identity beyond name and form.

There isn't devils and angels, there is negative emotions and ego identity. There isnt a big man in the heavens called god, god is not a being, god is being. Everything is part of god, and there is no life or death, just the transfering of energy or the spirit. Bassically, we are all part of this universal consciousness, which some call god, or others call being.



The whole Christian religion is directly based upon Christ being the Son of God. If he was not, then Christianity is not.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

The whole Christian religion is directly based upon Christ being the Son of God. If he was not, then Christianity is not.

Which is exactly why christianity is just another religion.

quote:Originally posted by Dragon Slayer:

Which is exactly why christianity is just another religion.

Ahh, yes, I see what you're saying. I was just getting at that all Christians really do actually believe that Christ was the Son of God, and if they don't, they aren't Christians.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

Ahh, yes, I see what you're saying. I was just getting at that all Christians really do actually believe that Christ was the Son of God, and if they don't, they aren't Christians.

Yes, as a former christian I remember when I once thought the same thing.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

With taking your whole Simpsons episode into consideration, it was implied that you believe people should believe in something even if it isn't true, if it brings them comfort and makes them happy. I strongly disagree with that. I look at the state of American politics and that's my reason for wanting to 'take it away from them'.



But if their beliefs, while wrong, cause no harm to you, what exactly is the problem? Ignore the fear-mongerers, hell-promisers, gay-bashers, and violent extremists. What's wrong with the rest of the faithful?

I'm supportive of a resistance to coerced belief and violent beliefs, but leave the pacifists alone.

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

Because the atheists are trying to help out the religious. What's wrong with trying to help a blind man see?



I know what you mean, but it's more along the lines that we're all blind men, just we're trying to stop them hallucinating.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

If God is all-loving and all-merciful like the Bible says, then your idea of a hell can't exist.

If God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omnipresent then Hell (a malevolent place place where God is both absent, per Catholic doctrine) cannot exist. He must be lacking in one of those three qualities.



I fail to see why but i guess its just because i know what the other part of the Bible say.Oh well.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Well you are the people shuving evolution down our throats and encouraging people to live impure and disease ridden life styles and giving ppls hard earned money to people who have never worked one day in there life so yes we are not in the same ballpark.

how exactly are they "shuving" evolution down your throat? And if you think condoms are encouraging disease you need to spend more time in junior high health class. In reference to the last part welfare (this is what I assume your talking about) has nothing to dow ith athiesm although feeding the poor and homeless is a christain concept, either that or christians are just bullshitting and taking credit for it. Either way you honestly sound like you have no idea what your talking about and just watch fox news and do no indipendant thinking at all on your own.

stay in school (yes the one that teaches evolution)

quote:Originally posted by blacksh33p18:

how exactly are they "shuving" evolution down your throat? And if you think condoms are encouraging disease you need to spend more time in junior high health class. In reference to the last part welfare (this is what I assume your talking about) has nothing to dow ith athiesm although feeding the poor and homeless is a christain concept, either that or christians are just bullshitting and taking credit for it. Either way you honestly sound like you have no idea what your talking about and just watch fox news and do no indipendant thinking at all on your own.

stay in school (yes the one that teaches evolution)



I was just making a point I wasnt meaning literally.

BTW Dont say it wasnt a very good point because I know you want to.And do you even watch fox news.But anyway this is off topic a little.





[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 03-07-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

I fail to see why but i guess its just because i know what the other part of the Bible say.Oh well.

And those parts would be? I've been reading the Bible since the age of 4 because of my parents and the school I attend so don't pull that bullshit on me. The Bible clearly says that God is all-powerful, all-good, and found everywhere. Show me a place where the Bible says otherwise and you'll only have found another contradiction to weasel your way out of.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

And those parts would be? I've been reading the Bible since the age of 4 because of my parents and the school I attend so don't pull that bullshit on me. The Bible clearly says that God is all-powerful, all-good, and found everywhere. Show me a place where the Bible says otherwise and you'll only have found another contradiction to weasel your way out of.

1.What school do you speak of(answer this wrong and i will disregard everything you say)

2.The Bible does not contradict.

3.You failed to se my point.

[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 03-07-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

1.What school do you speak of(answer this wrong and i will disregard everything you say)

2.The Bible does not contradict.

3.You failed to se my point.



1. I attend a private Catholic high school, and have been enrolled in the same school system for 12 years. I've taken four Catholic theology courses and two basic Christian theology courses.

2. quote: I fail to see why but i guess its just because i know what the other part of the Bible say.Oh well.

Here you state that I am wrong based on your knowledge that the Bible disagrees with me. If I what I said is found in the Bible, and the Bible also contradicts what I said, the Bible contradicts itself.

3. You failed to even define a point that was deeper than "You're wrong." You also failed to support your negation of my statements, but instead referenced a book and considered yourself safe.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

1.What school do you speak of(answer this wrong and i will disregard everything you say)

2.The Bible does not contradict.

3.You failed to se my point.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, the Bible doesn't contradict itself! HAHAHAHAHA!

Mark 16:9-11

9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

Matthew's account in chapter 28 of the aftermath of the Resurrection says nothing about how Mary Magdalene was the first to see the risen Jesus, rather, the disciples see Jesus on the mountain.

But more importantly, how the fuck do two varying accounts of creation not inherently contradict one another? There's only one Earth with humans on it.

Genesis 1 explicitly states one method God created humans, and Genesis 2 details some dust/dirt clod that God breathes into the nostrils of, hmmmm, no contradiction you say? Get real buddy.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

i attend a private catholic school

Awwww im so sorry that isnt the correct answer good day maybe next time.

quote:Originally posted by Fuck Conspiracies:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, the Bible doesn't contradict itself! HAHAHAHAHA!

Mark 16:9-11

9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

Matthew's account in chapter 28 of the aftermath of the Resurrection says nothing about how Mary Magdalene was the first to see the risen Jesus, rather, the disciples see Jesus on the mountain.

But more importantly, how the fuck do two varying accounts of creation not inherently contradict one another? There's only one Earth with humans on it.

Genesis 1 explicitly states one method God created humans, and Genesis 2 details some dust/dirt clod that God breathes into the nostrils of, hmmmm, no contradiction you say? Get real buddy.

Matthew:28

9: And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

10: Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

It clearly states they saw him.

As for the second part if you actually knew what you were talking about i would care.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Awwww im so sorry that isnt the correct answer good day maybe next time.



Nice cop-out. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I'm glad you have the humility to admit when you've been bested, as Christ was pretty strong about being humble.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Nice cop-out. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I'm glad you have the humility to admit when you've been bested, as Christ was pretty strong about being humble.

Bested????

Catholicism is the most corrupt of all branches of christi0anity and so is there Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Did... did you just judge evangelicals as stupid for judging people when you yourself just judged what they were doing as wrong and stupid?...

If you want to call it judging, sure. I call it an opinion.

However, when I say "judging" in this case, I am referring to evangelicals telling people they are going to hell. This judgement, according to the book they themselves hold sacred, is reserved for God alone.

quote:Originally posted by bung:

I might be wrong here, as in no way am I an expert on Christianity, but isn't one of the major things about Christianity is that you are suppose to go around and tell everyone possible about Christ and the Christian religion, or else you are not fulfilling your duty as a Christian?

So wouldn't this particular fellow I ran into just be following his religion extremely well?

Like I said though, I might be wrong here on the specifics of this.

You are correct in saying that christians are supposed to try to lead others to christ. However, there is a huge difference between that and blatantly harassing someone. I have even been a victim of quite a few of these overbearing people who think that they alone can change my religion simply by telling me I am going to go to hell for not being a Southern Baptist or some other denomination.

quote:Originally posted by dead_people_killer:

You are correct in saying that christians are supposed to try to lead others to christ. However, there is a huge difference between that and blatantly harassing someone. I have even been a victim of quite a few of these overbearing people who think that they alone can change my religion simply by telling me I am going to go to hell for not being a Southern Baptist or some other denomination.

Right, it's one thing to provide information on Christianity and pass on the message, but forcing the reaction to the information is where many Christians go astray.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Bested????

Catholicism is the most corrupt of all branches of christi0anity and so is there Bible.

Erm, Catholicism has the original Bible, before shit was changed. I'm not speaking on the truth of it, but if anything later forms of Christianity "corrupted" (read changed) the bible.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Right, it's one thing to provide information on Christianity and pass on the message, but forcing the reaction to the information is where many Christians go astray.

Exactly.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Erm, Catholicism has the original Bible, before shit was changed. I'm not speaking on the truth of it, but if anything later forms of Christianity "corrupted" (read changed) the bible.

HAHAHAHAHA the sad thing is you actually believe that crap.

I know the history of the Bible and all its forms i had the priveledge of a man who spent years researching it come to my church so i know what im talking about when i say that is bs.

[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 03-08-2007).]

*********NEWSFLASH************

Sammy had the good fortune of a church speaker, and is now the foremost authority on Biblical Theology!

We can cease all discussion now. He has clearly forgotten more than most of us will ever know regarding The Good Book, and future dialogue would be futile.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

*********NEWSFLASH************

Sammy had the good fortune of a church speaker, and is now the foremost authority on Biblical Theology!

We can cease all discussion now. He has clearly forgotten more than most of us will ever know regarding The Good Book, and future dialogue would be futile.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)



You forgot i also have the fortune of haveing a great pastor as for the other part you are completely right.

Sammy is a troll.

He HAS to be.

Otherwise, humanity is fucked.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

HAHAHAHAHA the sad thing is you actually believe that crap.

I know the history of the Bible and all its forms i had the priveledge of a man who spent years researching it come to my church so i know what im talking about when i say that is bs.



So your saying Martin Luther and John Calvin reformed the Bible before it even existed? http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

As an atheist, I don't really have a problem with anyone's spirituality. I actually have more of a problem with many Christians' LACK thereof.

Believing in an ultimate spiritual force is supposed to be based upon an unobservable, unquantifiable conviction and belief. There should be no evidence that science can present to shake this belief. And yet, according to the majority of loudmouthed fanatics that I meet, science has and does so quite frequently.

The theory of evolution is not a threat to you. The big bang theory is not a threat to you. Hawking himself admits that the mathematics of the big bang fall apart at the moment of singularity.

So why do you oppose this? You claim it contradicts the Bible?

...Whoop de fucking doo.

The Bible is a book. Whether it was written by man or God or Roman Emperor is irrelevant. Your faith is more than some pages loosely bound within a cover, or it should be. If these theories disturb your faith, then I fear it was extremely lacking to begin with.

Don't drag the rest of the species down with you. Either strengthen your faith, or abandon it.