Okay, enough of that "banana = ZOMG TEH ATHEISTS WURST NITEMERE" bullshit, I am going to state why I believe in a higher power. It is truly seen in nature, not the work of thousands of years of farming, untamed nature. All of the changes it has made over millions of years, I believe that some kind of intelligence is driving it:

Once pollinated, yellow lantana flowers turn red, a color butterflies can't see. This causes the insects to concentrate on other, unpollinated flowers.

So you're a pantheist?

EDIT - does anyone know what other colors butterflies don't see? It's already natural for butterflies to transfer pollen. The flower could have gotten lucky when it evolved, gaining the trait of turning red after pollination, and that's why it's still around.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-10-2007).]

The butterfly never had the need to evolve to see that color.

Here's some stuff here about plants evolving, the one's better adapted to make it easier for insects to pollinate them surviving: http://webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/17C.html

Yes. I believe that god is that spark of creation, the peramiters for existance.

Science may help us know how, but not why.

The powerful thing about pantheism is that it gives a person humility, without making him ignorant.

Sometimes in times of distress, I remember my will is so small in the flow of the universe and instead of fighting, try to accept it.

The only place I disagree with you is that you cited the butterfly thing as an intelligence.

I don't see that, rather the chain reaction that is life changing itself slowly over countless time to 'burn brighter'.

Good topic though.

Humility before nature is the 21'st century's lost key to peace of mind.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:



Yes. I believe that god is that spark of creation, the peramiters for existance.

Science may help us know how, but not why.

The powerful thing about pantheism is that it gives a person humility, without making him ignorant.

Sometimes in times of distress, I remember my will is so small in the flow of the universe and instead of fighting, try to accept it.

The only place I disagree with you is that you cited the butterfly thing as an intelligence.

I don't see that, rather the chain reaction that is life changing itself slowly over countless time to 'burn brighter'.

Good topic though.

Humility before nature is the 21'st century's lost key to peace of mind.

Pantheism - The creator has always existed

Atheism - The universe has always existed

The reason i chose the universe is because we've shown how the universe is completly self suficient. It doesnt need any help. The possibility is always open for a grand unimaginable creator, but ALOT of questions would have to be answered before we could comprehend that. Questions that havent even been asked yet.

Nature was Gods starting point. From there he made everything.

To the OP: You never stated why you believe in a higher power. Why do you think some intelligence is driving evolution of life and not natural selection. Natural selection explains all the life we see today and it doesn't require a conscious entity, that makes it more probable than a higher power. So, why do you believe in a higher power, given its improbability?



quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

The butterfly never had the need to evolve to see that color.

The more it pollinates, the more flowers will be around, the more food it will have. It could also be that red flowers give it less pollen (or that yellows give it more) so it evolved to not go to red flowers. Lot's of possible explanation that dont require a higher power.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 03-11-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

Pantheism - The creator has always existed

Atheism - The universe has always existed

The reason i chose the universe is because we've shown how the universe is completly self suficient. It doesnt need any help. The possibility is always open for a grand unimaginable creator, but ALOT of questions would have to be answered before we could comprehend that. Questions that havent even been asked yet.

Pantheism = God is all and all is god.

Atheism = Disbelief in god.

Yes, the universe is self sufficiant. We're not dropping out of existance for any reason. Science, has not told us why, it's just made some observations of how.

The why is incomprehensible, which is why 'god' is such a good name for everything.

I don't believe in a creator.

Perhaps the question you're looking to ask is;

As human animals, we understand lesser beings have lesser ability to understand their world. By that logic, our understanding of the world is not all encompassing and to rule something out for lack of understanding is ignorant.

That leaves us in the position, what do we call this knoweledge that is beyond our comprehension and what should it mean to us.

I say: call it God and let it give us peace of mind.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

To the OP: You never stated why you believe in a higher power. Why do you think some intelligence is driving evolution of life and not natural selection. Natural selection explains all the life we see today and it doesn't require a conscious entity, that makes it more probable than a higher power. So, why do you believe in a higher power, given its improbability?



I think that Natural Selection is so beautifully designed that it could not just be random chance.

quote:Originally posted by shitty wok:

I think that Natural Selection is so beautifully designed that it could not just be random chance.

It's not random chance. You should really read up on it before making a critique of it.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

Pantheism - The creator has always existed

Atheism - The universe has always existed

[...]

What about the Big Bang... doesn't that prove the universe had a beginning?

quote:Originally posted by Jove:

What about the Big Bang... doesn't that prove the universe had a beginning?

The big bang is the earliest recorded event in history, it doesn't explain how that little ball of heat got there.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Originally posted by Jove:

What about the Big Bang... doesn't that prove the universe had a beginning?

The big bang is the earliest recorded event in history, it doesn't explain how that little ball of heat got there.

Right, because nothing cannot amount to anything greater than nothing.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Originally posted by Jove:

What about the Big Bang... doesn't that prove the universe had a beginning?

The big bang is the earliest recorded event in history, it doesn't explain how that little ball of heat got there.

True... I'm not making a Theist argument just pointing out that the Universe had a beginning.

quote:Originally posted by Jove:

True... I'm not making a Theist argument just pointing out that the Universe had a beginning.

I don't think it did have a beginning though. I admit I could be wrong, but that little ball of heat was there before the big bang so something was there.

Personally, I like the idea that the universe expands, contracts, expands and contracts for infinite.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

I don't think it did have a beginning though. I admit I could be wrong, but that little ball of heat was there before the big bang so something was there.

Personally, I like the idea that the universe expands, contracts, expands and contracts for infinite.

It's one of those questions that will always come up... hopefully someday we will be able to answer it, though I doubt it.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:

Science, has not told us why, it's just made some observations of how.

The why is incomprehensible, which is why 'god' is such a good name for everything...

I say: call it God and let it give us peace of mind.

I agree there is more than we know, but to call the unknown "god" gives it a face, and lets people who know no more than I do, to put words in its mouth. And I say fuck that. We've had enough of that already.

quote:Originally posted by Jove:

True... I'm not making a Theist argument just pointing out that the Universe had a beginning.

Theres a few ideas going around explaining that the big bang could be a reacuring thing. Going through the process. String theory says its possible that the colliding of two parallel universes caused the big bang. We dont know yet though.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:



I say: call it God and let it give us peace of mind.

I disagree. Calling nature and/or the universe God just increases confusion as it very different to most peoples' definition of God. I'd even say that pantheism is semantically engineered atheism.

-Kooper