It seems incredibly naive and self centered to me when a religious person attempts to explain their faith through the this type of logic:

"Oh well the world is simply so beautiful...how could all this wonder have come just a big bang?"

"Oh i simply cannot believe that life is meaningless...That we just go into the ground when we die...there must be something more"

"Evolution can't possibly be true...There's no way I evolved from an ape. We're humans...We're different from animals and we have a purpose"

Dawkins would describe this reasoning as "the argument from personal incredulity" In other words..."I simply CANNOT believe something so it MUST not be true"

There are many existential truths to come to terms with but this thread is mainly based around the meaning of life.

I.e. My opinion is that life is essentially meaningless (it has meaning for me obviously but there is no "big plan" or "purpose" to our lives)

Your opinion maybe that god has a plan for us all.

It may be a rather painful existential truth to come to terms with but i certainly never had any problems accepting it.

So explain to me christians....Why is it so utterly inpossible to believe that our lives are essentially meaningless? Why is it so UTTERLY intolerable that we go into the ground when we die?

It just seems that we have a VERY Self centered view of the human race at the moment.....It's lovely to think that we're bang smack in the middle of things and that all the focus is on us and that the entire world has been lovingly designed and created JUST for us. And that was certainly much easier to believe 1000 years ago.

But these days we know more...We're in a boring solar system....Lazily orbiting three quarters of the way out of one arm of a reasonably average galaxy. Which is only one of untold billions.

How the hell to you STILL keep the idea alive in your minds that this is ALL for us?

Seems crazy to me.

Discuss.

Well there are some Christians out there who are no scientists so they have to argue the best they can. the same can be said for anything though. Its bad to just pick out the small persons understanding of the universe, try and pick out the people study to understand. Some people have no need to question, which God says is better not to. But theres some of us out there that will go insane trying to figure out all the answers. We try to learn and understand, ask us not them, it is not thier job to know. its thier faith that keep them Christians and sadly they have more faith than us questioners. I do not use those as excuses I use my own studies and knowledge, i ask why to everything and then ponder on that one question untill i find the answer. then i ask why to that, its never ending. Athiests stop, they dont continue to ask why? We are not suppose to ask why but if we do we cant stop for if we stop we become athiests! Realists are mainly Christian(or i would guess) but the real truth would be under general and special reletivity, through this i have learned may explain how God could have made this what it is. Its more under the study of time and timetravel as well as how the big bang was discovered through time reverse in a singularity so instead of destruction creation. this may be hard to understand and prob. wont make sense if you didn't start where i started! but anyways for me to explain would be quit hard and would take a while! to wrap it up ask questions and why to both sides of the arguement and dont stop, its the only way we can truly learn!

That is why i keep the idea alive. but honestly i start the Q's when i doubt! which is very very bad to do!

ps. plus who dont want a purpose?(not rhetorical dont answer)



[This message has been edited by Masta Thief (edited 03-17-2007).]

An interesting reply and thankyou. I must admit i used to see your posts as rather trollish at first but i have read more of what you write and i conclude that you are in fact an intelligent and well informed poster. It is simply that we don't always share the same ideas http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Controversy is good however so with that in mind what do you say to this?

Could it be that speaking from a purely atheistic point of view, religion holds some kind of survival value?

I was wondering why there was such a conviction among many that we are essentially the most important thing in the universe. By this i mean that God created us and the universe specifically FOR man.

Applying this idea to MY beliefs (evolution) I started wondering if religious conviction may have some SURVIVAL value and it is THIS that has caused such an idea to almost be imprinted on us.

Could it be that a primitive man who does not worry about unavoidable everyday occurances and instead places such chances in "the lap of the gods" would have MORE time to forage, breed and survive?

Whereas a primitive ATHEIST man (and i use the term loosely in this case) would NOT have such a convenient way of explaining away chance happenings?

He would instead be far less bold in the way he lived his life....Not taking seemingly risky chances to breed or find food because he see's an equal chance of success or failure.



Wheras a god believing man would not worry about such things. Whether he succeeded in killing a deer or was killed in the attempt was pre-ordained and hence he might as well try anyway.



I'm really not sure if i explained that at all well so i'll wrap it up.

God believing early man: All events are pre-ordained and hence taking a bold stance on living is fine. Take all opportunities to breed and eat even though some may seem dangerous. It doesn't matter. When god says it's your time to day it's your time.

Atheist early man: Things are random. The world is a sea of dangers and there is no great protector to watch your back. Hence you should be very choosy about how you eat or breed as any wrong choice could end your life.

Hence it would seem there may be a selective pressure in favour of the bold god believer. Perhaps instilling an evolutionary predisposition to religion?

It's a rather random idea but an interesting concept nontheless.

What do you think of such an idea?

Paragraphs rule, tru some

Anyone who thinks existence needs to be eternal to be meaningful, is ungrateful and selfish.

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

An interesting reply and thankyou. I must admit i used to see your posts as rather trollish at first but i have read more of what you write and i conclude that you are in fact an intelligent and well informed poster. It is simply that we don't always share the same ideas http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Controversy is good however so with that in mind what do you say to this?

Could it be that speaking from a purely atheistic point of view, religion holds some kind of survival value?

I was wondering why there was such a conviction among many that we are essentially the most important thing in the universe. By this i mean that God created us and the universe specifically FOR man.

Applying this idea to MY beliefs (evolution) I started wondering if religious conviction may have some SURVIVAL value and it is THIS that has caused such an idea to almost be imprinted on us.

Could it be that a primitive man who does not worry about unavoidable everyday occurances and instead places such chances in "the lap of the gods" would have MORE time to forage, breed and survive?

Whereas a primitive ATHEIST man (and i use the term loosely in this case) would NOT have such a convenient way of explaining away chance happenings?

He would instead be far less bold in the way he lived his life....Not taking seemingly risky chances to breed or find food because he see's an equal chance of success or failure.



Wheras a god believing man would not worry about such things. Whether he succeeded in killing a deer or was killed in the attempt was pre-ordained and hence he might as well try anyway.



I'm really not sure if i explained that at all well so i'll wrap it up.

God believing early man: All events are pre-ordained and hence taking a bold stance on living is fine. Take all opportunities to breed and eat even though some may seem dangerous. It doesn't matter. When god says it's your time to day it's your time.

Atheist early man: Things are random. The world is a sea of dangers and there is no great protector to watch your back. Hence you should be very choosy about how you eat or breed as any wrong choice could end your life.

Hence it would seem there may be a selective pressure in favour of the bold god believer. Perhaps instilling an evolutionary predisposition to religion?

It's a rather random idea but an interesting concept nontheless.

What do you think of such an idea?

In a way this is true. but some people only listen to some and not all! The order of things is not pre-ordained, unlike what most people think. Although it is known to God. God (if he is real) gave us freewill try and listen to the story of Adam and Eve this tells we have a choice in the direction are life is going. people also take that if it is not your time to die then you wont wrong too! Its called human intervention. ok i just took like 10 mins to try and explain but its to difficult lol. Although God does guide us with an invisble hand but all of this is tooken all wrong too. So it doesnt really disprove anything either of arguements lol.

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:



"Oh well the world is simply so beautiful...how could all this wonder have come just a big bang?"

I know, it is amazing isn't it? Sort of makes all of existence seem more beautiful.

"Oh i simply cannot believe that life is meaningless...That we just go into the ground when we die...there must be something more"

Yeah, it makes the fact that we are alive seem all the more amazing and makes me want to live it as well as I can.

"Evolution can't possibly be true...There's no way I evolved from an ape. We're humans...We're different from animals and we have a purpose"

It is amazing to think about isn't it? Sort of makes you engage in introspection to develop an individual purpose for life. Looking at across the vastness of space and time and realizing that the chance for your existing was infinitessimally small. It is all so beautiful and majestic; life is such a thing to be cherished.

What I mean to say is:

I do not find wonder and inquisitiveness to be bad at all. Their questioning is wonderful, their conclusions are sad.

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

What I mean to say is:

I do not find wonder and inquisitiveness to be bad at all. Their questioning is wonderful, their conclusions are sad.



like i said you stop we keep on!

well when talking about the afterlife from a physics standpoint, "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed" so what happens to the energy of your conciousness when you die? One could also argue that you are the one being simplistic I mean your basing your decision that someone is dead on their physical body being destroyed, just because science hasn't shown what is beyond the 5 senses of a human doesn't mean there's nothing there.

quote:Originally posted by Nate7667:

well when talking about the afterlife from a physics standpoint, "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed" so what happens to the energy of your conciousness when you die? One could also argue that you are the one being simplistic I mean your basing your decision that someone is dead on their physical body being destroyed, just because science hasn't shown what is beyond the 5 senses of a human doesn't mean there's nothing there.



Energy of conciousness?

As with all bodily energy (usually released as heat) the "earth" breaks down your bodily components and uses it as nutrients.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Some people have no need to question, which God says is better not to.



That's because God knows if people keep looking, they're gonna find his stash. Then shit's gonna go bananas. You're still a faggot Masta Thief.

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:



Energy of conciousness?

As with all bodily energy (usually released as heat) the "earth" breaks down your bodily components and uses it as nutrients.





umm im glad this topic came up. here is where science contradicts itself. they state that energy can niether be created nor destroyed, but this is not the case. Matter and energy are made up of the same protons(i think thats the name) matter in a way is energy. And just like matter energy can be destroyed. its correct in the meaning we can not create new energy that isnt already there and cannot ourselves destroy the energy but after billions or trillions of years energy as well as matter will not exist! it will just dissapear into pure nothingness. the galaxys, stars, blackholes, other space phenomina will all one day cease to exist! If the Big-bang theory was correct and the evidence of the doppler shift is true then even space in itself will one day be non-existant! With out Space, time cannot exist so everything we know of all the knowledge we have aquired is nothing will always be nothing, the futile attempts to save human race from futuristic catastrophic events will mean nothing. In the end its as if we were never here, humanities greatist achievments will never have meant a thing and humanities darkest hours were no differ in the end as the achievments. If time can die than we were never alive because it is through time we can establish that we are real.

ps. when i said science contradicts itself i meant the common knowledge is only bits and pieces of the whole thing. yes we can not create nor destroy energy but that doesnt mean that energy is forever. quite the contrary. they dont teach very much the whole stuff in just regular science! the few of what they do was by accident it was another topic a movie or book pondered into. oh and by no way was this coming from a religious view completley science. Question for you to ask yourselves, if i believe all this stuff how do i still believe in God?

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



They state that energy can niether be created nor destroyed, but this is not the case. Matter and energy are made up of the same protons(i think thats the name) matter in a way is energy.

Matter and energy are not made up of protons. But protons are matter.

Matter and energy are not made up of the same thing. They ARE the same thing. Essentially Einstein proved that matter and energy are interchangeable and mass can be converted to energy and vice versa.

This is the principal behind the nuclear bomb.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

And just like matter energy can be destroyed. its correct in the meaning we can not create new energy that isnt already there and cannot ourselves destroy the energy but after billions or trillions of years energy as well as matter will not exist! it will just dissapear into pure nothingness.

This is not true, at least certainly not supported by observational evidence.

Matter can NOT be destroyed. It is simply converted to other forms. Same goes for energy, Although the concept of "destroying energy" is a little weird so we just say that energy is conserved.

What is your basis for saying that after trillions of years (A long time to look into the future I might add) there will be no energy OR matter?

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

the galaxys, stars, blackholes, other space phenomina will all one day cease to exist! If the Big-bang theory was correct and the evidence of the doppler shift is true then even space in itself will one day be non-existant!

Again I don't understand your reasoning here, Perhaps the Galaxys, stars and blackholes we know will some day cease to exist but there will always be the matter and hence the energy. That will not disappear.

Also doppler shift (more commonly referred to as red shift when talking astronomically) simply provides evidence that the universe is expanding. It does not indicate that this expansion will some day cause space to cease existing.



quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

With out Space, time cannot exist so everything we know of all the knowledge we have aquired is nothing will always be nothing, the futile attempts to save human race from futuristic catastrophic events will mean nothing. In the end its as if we were never here, humanities greatist achievments will never have meant a thing and humanities darkest hours were no differ in the end as the achievments. If time can die than we were never alive because it is through time we can establish that we are real.

That's an incredibly pessimistic view. And one which it is certainly not worth sharing, On a smaller time scale it could be said that because there comes a time when we die and time effectively stops existing for us then there is no point in living life.

The human race will strive to exist where it can, The threat of universal collapse in ten trillion years should not put us off this much shorter term goal.



quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

yes we can not create nor destroy energy but that doesnt mean that energy is forever. quite the contrary.

Are you saying that just because WE can't do it doesn't mean that it can't be done?

The meaning of life is to expand and use up these avalable resources to bring the universe to some kind of equalibrium.

It's just a reaction, like a fire growing larger and hotter.

The crux of religion is life on earth, generally having lots of children.

It's just a device for human advancement.

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

...

Could it be that speaking from a purely atheistic point of view, religion holds some kind of survival value?

I was wondering why there was such a conviction among many that we are essentially the most important thing in the universe. By this i mean that God created us and the universe specifically FOR man.

Applying this idea to MY beliefs (evolution) I started wondering if religious conviction may have some SURVIVAL value and it is THIS that has caused such an idea to almost be imprinted on us.

...

What do you think of such an idea?

Richard Dawkins speculates on the possible evolutionary value of religion in his book The God Delusion (brilliant btw). A friend borrowed my copy, so I cant tell you exactly what his arguments were. But I remember one of his theories was that humans are predisposed to blind faith and being generally gullible, take this "Primitive man" example:

Parent tells child not to swim in the crocodile-infested river because they will die. Gullible children believe everything that they are told and henceforth avoid said river (living longer). The disobedient / reckless / not-heeding of their parent warnings / inquisitive children all die.

Result: predispositions for obedience and blind belief are nurtured evolutionarily in humans.

A "misfiring" (unwanted side-effect) of this otherwise advantageous trait is the tendancy to, for want of better language, be a dumbshit.

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

*owns Masta Theifs argument*



+ 10

Masta Theif, your arguments are at best (for you ) incoherent but mostly just non-sequitur. Example: "yes we can not create nor destroy energy but that doesnt mean that energy is forever. quite the contrary. "

Edit: screwed up quotes.





[This message has been edited by Wings (edited 03-19-2007).]

In my reality, life has no special meaning other than that which we choose to assign to it. I think it was Archibald MacLeish who observed that "a poem does not mean, but be."

Such is life.

Our soul's agenda is not about meaningfullness, or even doingness, but beingness.

Our job here is to express the God within us (as Jesus reminded us, "the kingdom of heaven is within you") and create ourselves by manifesting ourselves in accordance with our highest, greatest, and grandest conception of ourselves.

[This message has been edited by ArmsMerchant (edited 03-19-2007).]

this is in debate to Ressotami's comment!



I forgot to ask what they were called today, but yes they make up both matter and energy and yes they do die off in a way. this is shown in the particle accellerators or was figured out at least by using them.

The whole thing about the time not bieng able to exist with out space and vice versa is true, according to one of the reletivity theories which so much of the science and theories we have today is based off of or is allowed to be through the theories..

Umm look farther on down the line and not whats happening now. What are the effects of an expanding universe? Eventually the universe will expand so far untill it either A- rips atoms and molecules apart and start to dissapear or B- Get so big that it retracts in a rubber band type effect and topples itself, destroying the universe.

I wasnt trying to sound pessimistici was trying to use it in the way science channel movies trys to make you doubt reality at the end of each show.lol, maybe i didnt do that. (also wasnt trying to make in a view as to where i would be saying why try)

and to your last thing im not quite sure what you put.

Belief in a higher power devalues existence. I think anyway.

Why is god a "he"? I believe god is a system some call it evolution(not that I do).

[This message has been edited by talibanned (edited 03-20-2007).]

From the subjective standpoint, life is only meaningless if you choose for it not to have any purpose or succumb to depression. Meaning is not necessary however, unless you want to live a healthy life. Personally, I think people need a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-20-2007).]

Life having a meaning is all in the mind! If your an athiest then the purpose is an oppinion to what it is or if we even have one. which in my head w/o what is the point if nothing besides us knows we are here and will never be discovered and nothing known, it doesnt matter whos murdered basicly we are all dying just some a little bit faster and as a whole are kind are dying out! just a thought please dont make an arguement of it thats just my oppinion!?! but yes back to the point if your a Christian then the point is live your life as best as possible , raise a family have good kids and such, and when you die go to heaven. thats just a basic view would be just for the arguements sake! but yes through religion we know are purpose but if your without then your purpose is made up in your mind!

ps. none of this is an arguement so please no calling me a troll or any attacks!?!

I finnaly figured out what those things that make up energy and matter are! they are called quarks! i might add that quarks can and will die, so there you go energy will dissapear and die off eventually in trillions of years from now! even if we wanted to we couldnt survive and as Hawkings has said that time travel by us defies the laws of nature and that nature wouldnt allow it( thats not the quote) so we will never be able to try and stop it(just thought i might add that)!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

i might add that quarks can and will die, so there you go energy will dissapear and die off eventually in trillions of years from now!

I dispute this. Source?

Not in the least because we don't describe particles as "dying" that is an attribute of a living organism and can not really be carried over into the quantum universe.

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

I dispute this. Source?

Not in the least because we don't describe particles as "dying" that is an attribute of a living organism and can not really be carried over into the quantum universe.

ugh man havnt i found enough??? can you try and look for it please and if you cant just tell me and i guess i could do it! but the only reason i use the word die off is for lack of better words. but yes they do dissenigrate or cease to exist or w/e you want to call it.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



like i said you stop we keep on!

No, it's exactly the opposite, and that's the point.

Christians refuse to keep searching for answers. They don't want the god of the gaps to keep shrinking. Some (and no offense, I'm talking extreme psychopathic mentally unstable people here, not normal health sane christians) will even go so far as to deny the answers we have found and proven repeatedly beyond any and all reasonable doubt again and again; namely, evolution.

If we discover what initiated the big bang, you can bet it will be atheists leading the way, not christians.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

ugh man havnt i found enough??? can you try and look for it please and if you cant just tell me and i guess i could do it! but the only reason i use the word die off is for lack of better words. but yes they do dissenigrate or cease to exist or w/e you want to call it.



Mate i'm not looking for data to support your claim. I've done my research and i know a fair bit about the quantum level.



So i'm disputing your claim that quarks cease to exist randomly and i'd like you to prove me wrong if you can.

So pray tell where are you getting your information about quark decay from?

I think the problem is that humans are too self centered to understand that the universe does not revolve around us and earth.

Seriously, just look at the existance around us. We're only a small, insignifigant part of the greater whole made up by nature.

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

Mate i'm not looking for data to support your claim. I've done my research and i know a fair bit about the quantum level.



So i'm disputing your claim that quarks cease to exist randomly and i'd like you to prove me wrong if you can.

So pray tell where are you getting your information about quark decay from?

understandable! its not randomly that they cease to exist, they only have so much time.



this is not an arguement agreed? so just to clarify im not trying to make stuff up for no reason. i checked with my proffesor at shcool to make sure i didnt mistake anything and he said that quarks do die off! and eventually ebergy and matter will cease to exist!

People are too weak-minded to accept that there is no higher purpose of life on Earth. They can't deal with the idea that a spiritual meaning associated with life doesn't exist. As many people have already said, you are the one who gives your life meaning.