Seriously. Anyone who believes in a god figure is at least partly retarded. I can not imagine a more boring excuse for earth, life and the rest of the universe. If God just made all this up, I might as well kill myself now, since there is no mystery, nothing to learn, nothing to enlighten. Never mind that the history of the earth as it is told in all major religions has already been proven factually incorrect. Wow, a god figure can't be ruled out. What a great reason to believe in one. I mean, the universe exists. It's fucking huge. We exist. So does the earth and all the other life forms. It's tangible and blatant. I prefer to deal in that which exists. There is simply no rational argument for belief in god. If someone has one, I beg you to put it forth.

/rant

i bet you touch yourself at night

Well the fact that religion has been around for hundreds of thousands of years and so far hasn't been scientifically disproven is a pretty good argument.

Most other incorrect threories in science are ruled out after about 50 years or so.

harold faggot

quote:Originally posted by Nerd Fangs:

Well the fact that religion has been around for hundreds of thousands of years and so far hasn't been scientifically disproven is a pretty good argument.

Most other incorrect threories in science are ruled out after about 50 years or so.

Good point. Disprove unicorns then. And that there is a teapot orbiting Jupiter.

Yea, exactly.

Er, judging by the likes of Masta Thief and Mustache Rider, in retrospect, perhaps I shouldn't leave it there and assume that everyone's intellect is functioning enough to make the connections.

In other words, there are a million things we can't disprove, and that is not reason to believe in any of them.

quote:Originally posted by Nerd Fangs:

Well the fact that religion has been around for hundreds of thousands of years and so far hasn't been scientifically disproven is a pretty good argument.

Most other incorrect threories in science are ruled out after about 50 years or so.

Great, so some idiot comes up with a convincing story, more and more people believe it. Does that make it true?

Bump

quote:Originally posted by H a r o l d:

Never mind that the history of the earth as it is told in all major religions has already been proven factually incorrect.

I love how you say that like its true.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

I love how you say that like its true.



i love how it is true.

Anybody who thinks this planet is less than 6000 years old has a serious mental condition.

Carbon dating, other forms of radiaion dating, ... Sammy, you shouldn't be allowed to talk after posting a picture as "proof" that cavemen frolliced with the dinosaurs.

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:



Carbon dating, other forms of radiaion dating,

God made it so carbon dating would show that something is older than 6000 years old, and let us further ponder his greatness. DUH

You're all wrong http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

*draws another hit*

quote:Originally posted by Nerd Fangs:

Well the fact that religion has been around for hundreds of thousands of years and so far hasn't been scientifically disproven is a pretty good argument.

Most other incorrect threories in science are ruled out after about 50 years or so.



Wait... you believe that anything has been around for more than 10,000 years?

quote:Originally posted by Nerd Fangs:

Well the fact that religion has been around for hundreds of thousands of years and so far hasn't been scientifically disproven is a pretty good argument.

Most other incorrect threories in science are ruled out after about 50 years or so.



Wait... you believe that anything has been around for more than 10,000 years?

Me and Harold: http://pastebin.ca/403110

Your proof is all around you. It is in everything you can see and feel.

The answers are easy and plentiful. The questions...those are the hard part. How can you find the answer if you don't ask the right question?

Harld and Smokey's IRC convo sounds more like a scene from The Matrix the farther they go http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Great thing is they had a civil conversation about the topic, and it didn't turn into a full blown STFU war.

Sorry for getting angry Smokey http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

nuclearrabbit!*@* added to ignore list.

Fox!*@* added to ignore list.

lol

But...

Several interesting points for those of faith to answer:

1) Theoretically, If I could travel faster than the speed of light, out into space say 4.5 billion light years, (the age of the earth) and I had a really awesome telescope, I could watch the earth be created. If I then sped towards the earth many times the speed of light, theoretically, I could watch the earth form, evolution, etc in fast forward. If God had a hand in in life and earth, what would I see?

2) In the future, scientists are going to be able to look far enough away into space so as to watch the beginning of the universe. If God made it happen, what will they see?

3) If God is everything, why flowers bloom, why I think, why the sun shines.. That answers ABSOLUTELY nothing. How does he do it?

4) If I am too stupid to ever perceive God's greatness, how does that form a meaning to life, how does it form a base for hope? If anything that makes me want to kill myself because everything is pointless. (Essentially, everything is fake if God just made it up)

5) Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it? (Owned)

6)Occam's Razor - When multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities.

In other words, it is wholly irrational to believe God made everything up with his impossible omnipotent power, than just a long series of accidents. After all, the one truth is that we ARE here... and we had to get here somehow.

Note I am ignoring all the other pitfalls of abrahamic religion and dealing solely with the simple concept of a God figure.

Sorry, Harold. Not interested.

P.S. Posting a disrespectful rant, and then apologizing for it and claiming you'd like a "civil discussion" (as you said in AIM) is not the way to get people to participate.

I suggest you figure out a way to start the conversation in a civil manner, then you won't have anything to apologize for.

Meh if you wanted to respond you would. I apologized in advance.

Goddamnit why do the troll / moron threads get the most attention.



bump foar graet justiss

Eh, nobody wants to die, and nobody wants to accept that their existence is a random event. Ever read "1984"? People will believe something in blatant defiance of simple logic because they can't comprehend the alternative, and are afraid to try.

religion is like a snowball:

someone made a tiny one and rolled it down a hill a couple thousand years ago. Now, it doesn't matter if it was right in the first place, its so big its never gunna stop :P

Yep.

" Never mind that the history of the earth as it is told in all major religions has already been proven factually incorrect"

haha! We making up stuff now?

quote:Originally posted by H a r o l d:

5) Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?

Read this (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/rock.html).

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy_Jazz:

Great thing is they had a civil conversation about the topic, and it didn't turn into a full blown STFU war.

That was the point of him taking it up with me, and not someone like... NuclearRabbit or something.

Did that link stop working? http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/11704/

*Bumps for God*

If god ISNT omnipotent then how can he create earth in 7 days?

So would you still agree that he is omniscient and omnipresent? also that he's all loving?

ACTUALLY, he created it in six. SCIENTIFIC FACT.

He then had a rest on the seventh day. Because that's what a supernatural, omnipotent, divine being needs. His fucking beauty sleep.

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:

i love how it is true.

Anybody who thinks this planet is less than 6000 years old has a serious mental condition.



And anybody who makes a comment like this is an ignorant human being who is making inflamatory comments against beliefs he doesn't understand and has little tolerance or understanding of human beings.

quote:Originally posted by yango wango:

And anybody who makes a comment like this is an ignorant human being who is making inflamatory comments against beliefs he doesn't understand and has little tolerance or understanding of human beings.

lol, you just did what he did. Because he has little "tolerance" and "understanding" of Christians, you claim he has none of human beings, which implies the entire human race, you hypocrite!

Yeah I know but I never claim to be a christian or a person of high moral virtue. I wouldn't say it's hypocritical because it was an asshole comment.

I kinda believe in god after I read that in the bible is says facts about the earth that billions of years humans didn't even know about. Like it says that the earth is round when it wasn't even proven yet. Can someone get that out of my mind, then Im good.

Come on. Religion has nothing to do with material stuff. I believe, that most of the people, starting religions (e.g. Jesus), were pretty smart people, who saw that the world and the society was pretty fucked up, and tried to encourage people to stop acting like retards(e.g. stop oppressing/murdering/stealing from each other, be more kind to each other, etc.). But nobody cared. So they had to make up a story, that would promise a candy to those, who followed their rules (paradise) and will fuck up those, who don't (hell).

And, since people had already had a concept of God/Gods, it's possible that people called that guy the "Savior", "Messiah" or "Son of God". And even if he claimed that he wasn't any of that, he would fail, since people would say something in the lines of "Only the true Messiah would say that he's not one".

Conclusion: go and watch "Life of Brian" already.

quote:Originally posted by darkmasta:

I kinda believe in god after I read that in the bible is says facts about the earth that billions of years humans didn't even know about. Like it says that the earth is round when it wasn't even proven yet. Can someone get that out of my mind, then Im good.

And the Bible was written by who may I ask?

And the roundness of Earth was pretty much proven by the Greeks. Eratosthenes even calculated Earth's circumference around 240 BC.

quote:Originally posted by Agent 008:

And the Bible was written by who may I ask?

And the roundness of Earth was pretty much proven by the Greeks. Eratosthenes even calculated Earth's circumference around 240 BC.



Don't bother...let's just dress up as pilgrims who arrived with the Mayflower more than a century after Christopher Columbus made his "discovery" and proclaim that everyone thought the world was flat.

quote:[23:06] Fox: dude

[23:06] Fox: narwals

[23:06] Fox: they are real

[23:06] Fox: that trips me out

[23:06] Fox: ims super high

god is a shemale and screws dogs now using scientific reasoning prove me wrong

quote:Originally posted by darkmasta:

I kinda believe in god after I read that in the bible is says facts about the earth that billions of years humans didn't even know about. Like it says that the earth is round when it wasn't even proven yet. Can someone get that out of my mind, then Im good.

......no

quote:Originally posted by H a r o l d:

Sorry for getting angry Smokey http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

nuclearrabbit!*@* added to ignore list.

Fox!*@* added to ignore list.

lol

But...

Several interesting points for those of faith to answer:

1) Theoretically, If I could travel faster than the speed of light, out into space say 4.5 billion light years, (the age of the earth) and I had a really awesome telescope, I could watch the earth be created. If I then sped towards the earth many times the speed of light, theoretically, I could watch the earth form, evolution, etc in fast forward. If God had a hand in in life and earth, what would I see?

2) In the future, scientists are going to be able to look far enough away into space so as to watch the beginning of the universe. If God made it happen, what will they see?

3) If God is everything, why flowers bloom, why I think, why the sun shines.. That answers ABSOLUTELY nothing. How does he do it?

4) If I am too stupid to ever perceive God's greatness, how does that form a meaning to life, how does it form a base for hope? If anything that makes me want to kill myself because everything is pointless. (Essentially, everything is fake if God just made it up)

5) Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it? (Owned)

6)Occam's Razor - When multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities.

In other words, it is wholly irrational to believe God made everything up with his impossible omnipotent power, than just a long series of accidents. After all, the one truth is that we ARE here... and we had to get here somehow.

Note I am ignoring all the other pitfalls of abrahamic religion and dealing solely with the simple concept of a God figure.





ugh...this is so sad.

Im a Christian, the fucking historical protectors of logic you dunce, and I will answer each one of your questions you psuedo-intellectual.

1) No one knows. However we can infer that what we will see will be exactly in accord with all proven scientific theories. None of which my friend disprove the existence of God as an ultimate creator. You assume because science exists that faith cannot. It certainly can and does. Why? Because the definition of "God" does not live within the confines of your narrow mind.

2)Again, whatever has been proven by science, which I am sad to say is almost nothing, and more besides. Yet you've shown youre an idiot by asking this question in that seeing an effect(the creation of the universe) is not the same as seeing is cause. Light, like all matter before the big bang, was compressed and therfore we would not see the CAUSE which you so desperately and pathetically wish to disprove.

3)How? However we can prove through reason. We exist, therefore we are spawned, and as inextricrably interlinked portions we are all part of something greater, an eternal 1.

4)If you are too stupid to ever understand then you would have killed yourself already without asking that question. As a man you have been blessed with reason, this is your base for hope. You can therefore use it to your advantage and satisfaction. Unfortunately you havent which is why youre whining about God in an internet thread. All insecurities exude from internal feelings of inadequacy. Youre not satisfied with your imperfections and are complaining to all that exists like a whiny baby. Thats all. "Fake" you say? Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

Youre reality "is" as is your existence. With that understanding you cannot do anything but attend to the reality you are able to act in.

5)Youre making an assumption as to the nature of God which no religious person or self respecting philosopher with a brain would make.

6)Lol look at the idiot pretending he knows what Occams Razor is. Did you know Occam was a Franciscan friar? But thats irrelevant.

How is the Idea of a God irrational? You exist. The Universe exists. These factors came forth from something definable by any word(God?). That explanation is a hell of alot simpler than any ive heard an atheist present. Anything else?

quote:No one knows.

“If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”

quote:How is the Idea of a God irrational? You exist. The Universe exists. These factors came forth from something definable by any word(God?). That explanation is a hell of alot simpler than any ive heard an atheist present. Anything else?

This assumes a lot. First, you’re assuming the universe wasn’t always around. Now you can believe God was always around, because otherwise it would lead to an infinite regress, but why not just believe the universe was always around?

Next, you haven’t even given an adequate definition of God. The first thing to come into existence could have just been a few tiny particles or something, nothing I would worship and call God. The generally accepted idea of God is far more complex than the universe and would require more faith to believe in than the universe being built by slow, gradual changes.

As for your argument about science not proving much, you are an idiot. Stop taking your medicine, stop using this computer, don’t believe in the travel to the moon, ignore the ideas of gravity, evolution, atoms, don't read the weather forecast, don't drive your car, don't use mathematics, etc. etc. and go back to your Bible if you wish, but don’t go spouting that shit all over the place with nothing to back it up, when most religious people believe in a book that hasn’t been proven that says shit like the savior of the universe is a 2000 year old carpenter and the son of God.



[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-25-2007).]

um heres something to ponder

sin=evil=bad

good=not evil=not bad

isn't a sin along the lines of killing someone or torturing them well if god is so good and cant commit a sin then he cannot send us to hell because that within it self is evil so therefore it would make god bad thats like being nice to a suffering animal and killing it nice but bad at the same time regardless to ones opinion on the matter.

quote:Originally posted by mastergamerx:

um heres something to ponder

sin=evil=bad

good=not evil=not bad

isn't a sin along the lines of killing someone or torturing them well if god is so good and cant commit a sin then he cannot send us to hell because that within it self is evil so therefore it would make god bad thats like being nice to a suffering animal and killing it nice but bad at the same time regardless to ones opinion on the matter.

You got it all wrong mate. The very definition of sin is "something that pisses God off". That means that God can't commit sins, 'duh.

typical atheist argument:

Atheist: God Doesn't Exist

Christian: Prove it!

Atheist: I don't have to, he doesnt exist, prove ME wrong.



typical christian argument:

Christian: God Exists

Atheist: Prove it!

Christian: I dont have to, he exists, prove me wrong.

I also find it funny that atheists rely on science and logic when in reality, science and logic are man made concepts. Travel back to the beginning of time where there were either simple humans or nothing at all. Ask them what number comes after 4. They probably couldn't tell you because that strain of "logical thinking" wasn't conjured up by humans yet.

Logic and Science are blocked by the barrier of language. We can only understand the things we can think/speak. We can only understand things within the limits of our language. That seems to be a pretty slim understanding of things, but coming from a logical mind, we believe there is more out there when in fact, this could just be it. And we've mastered everything through our language.

Hell i don't even know if the earth revolves around the sun. But that seems to be the going story, so what the fuck, i'll believe it.

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:

Hell i don't even know if the earth revolves around the sun.

Actually, it doesn't. We can assume that Earth has a fixed position in the Universe and that everything else moves in weird ways around it. The reason why we believe that Earth revolves around the Sun, is because it makes the world a lot less complex.

And I don't really see why we're discussing whether God or something else "Did it". It's all gonna be just guesswork anyway. We shouldn't be just making up answers.

Try to think of an explanation for the universe that is more logical than "God" creating it.... you cant.

quote:Originally posted by Tuesday:

Try to think of an explanation for the universe that is more logical than "God" creating it.... you cant.



Logic doesnt start with a lack of knowledge.

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

Logic doesnt start with a lack of knowledge.

Well you can have fun discovering the creation of the universe, and when you have that knowledge you can talk to me about my flawed logic.

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:



I also find it funny that atheists rely on science and logic when in reality, science and logic are man made concepts.

So is god. Science however relies on evidence rather than speculation.

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:



Travel back to the beginning of time where there were either simple humans or nothing at all. Ask them what number comes after 4. They probably couldn't tell you because that strain of "logical thinking" wasn't conjured up by humans yet.

Does that mean our logic is invalid? Ask a 2 year old what an internal combustion engine is. They don't know? gosh our entire concept of transportation must be a myth!

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:



Logic and Science are blocked by the barrier of language. We can only understand the things we can think/speak. We can only understand things within the limits of our language.



That seems pretty logical to me.

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:



That seems to be a pretty slim understanding of things, but coming from a logical mind, we believe there is more out there when in fact, this could just be it. And we've mastered everything through our language.

Hell i don't even know if the earth revolves around the sun. But that seems to be the going story, so what the fuck, i'll believe it.

It's supported by evidence. Something which god is not.

quote:Originally posted by gmail:

God made it so carbon dating would show that something is older than 6000 years old, and let us further ponder his greatness. DUH

Last Thursdayism (http://tinyurl.com/2x9r9l)

You're probably not going to change anybody's mind and everyone is just going on a big ass rant about how god is real or isn't real. There is no proof, but what I've learned in school is that space has no oxygen and God probably sufficated by now :P.

In answer to your teapot spiel:

You are carefully, and once again, foolishly ignoring the concept that you have agreed is your only savior. That of reason and the logical acknowledgement of cause and effect. You agree with me that only reason can help us understand yes? Good.

You're teapot assertion can be disproved physically, logistically, and more besides. You quickly removed yourself from science there buddy. Nice conceptual switch. But furthermore your making a social commentary; that atheists are looked down upon by christians. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) Im sorry and I sympathize but that is tottally irrelevant and your whole teapot was just brain garbage typed on to totse. Useless.

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

This assumes a lot. First, you’re assuming the universe wasn’t always around. Now you can believe God was always around, because otherwise it would lead to an infinite regress, but why not just believe the universe was always around?

Next, you haven’t even given an adequate definition of God. The first thing to come into existence could have just been a few tiny particles or something, nothing I would worship and call God. The generally accepted idea of God is far more complex than the universe and would require more faith to believe in than the universe being built by slow, gradual changes.

As for your argument about science not proving much, you are an idiot. Stop taking your medicine, stop using this computer, don’t believe in the travel to the moon, ignore the ideas of gravity, evolution, atoms, don't read the weather forecast, don't drive your car, don't use mathematics, etc. etc. and go back to your Bible if you wish, but don’t go spouting that shit all over the place with nothing to back it up, when most religious people believe in a book that hasn’t been proven that says shit like the savior of the universe is a 2000 year old carpenter and the son of God.





^^^and this. No. Excuse my initial vagueness but what I am assuming is that what we see or perceive or the way in which we perceive (space and time) reality came after something else. I did not mean "universe" in the sense of the totality of existence. Only in that which we can percieve (scientifically) exists.

No I did not give an adequate definition of God because you did not ask for one. There are many ideas. Reason has given me a few attributes: Universal, all permeating, all encompassing, all creating, God is the totality of all that which we perceive and that which we dont. The action and inaction, equilibrium, eternal mover, destroyer, totality, and all that is. All physical and metaphysical rules and observable phenomena are its extensions. Thats my idea but that is irrelevant to your argument that "God" does not exist. Tiny particles? My shallow friend...since when does physical size indicate worth? How big was the universe in full compression? So what? Does God have to be some gray haired dude in a toga? Grow up. More complex than the universe? The universe is part of Him so...yeah. My friend...the idea of evolution and slow gradual change is not in conflict with the idea of God. Therefore making youre entire argument there...pointless.

Science can only go up to the limits of physical experimentation. I never said it was insignificant. Only limited. Your reason however, is unlimited. The next few sentences were just pissy whiny babble at the fact that youre revolt against existence is crumbling. EVERY...FUCKING...THING...I HAVE SAID...I...BACK....UP. With reason. I dont make light of my ignorance and pretend Im right.

Yeah.

[This message has been edited by TruthWielder (edited 03-26-2007).]

Sounds like a bunch of gobbledygook.

Do you have anything real to say? What reasons do you have for having faith?

quote:Originally posted by Tuesday:

Try to think of an explanation for the universe that is more logical than "God" creating it.... you cant.



The universe exists because it is not possible for nothing to exist so something must!

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

It's supported by evidence. Something which god is not.

what evidence? people have just believed it for so long. Like i said, i just think its the going story and people are going with it. Maybe it makes the most sense and thats why people believe it. I dunno. That goes for both ideas by the way. You have no evidence that god does or does not exist, and you yourself have no proof that the earth revolves around the sun without consulting a book.



quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

Does that mean our logic is invalid? Ask a 2 year old what an internal combustion engine is. They don't know? gosh our entire concept of transportation must be a myth!



It does mean our logic is invalid. Concepts of logic are invented by people and people alone. They make sense, because they are defined as "logical" Logic is a universal idea of things that make sense. Why do they make sense though? A+B=C... where did ABC come from? Why are they even in that order? Its logical only because those things have been universally accepted... what about before the concept of the alphabet? when there was no language... someone HAD to have invented it at some point in time. The same with mathematics. Coming up with a definition of a quantity of items. Logic is man made, and people rely on things that are man made in their quest to deny or proove god.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

quote:Originally posted by H a r o l d:

Sounds like a bunch of gobbledygook.

Do you have anything real to say? What reasons do you have for having faith?

sigh...because you are unwilling to use your brain and to understand points that utterly disprove your reasoning now what I say is gobbledygook? Everything Ive said is rational and understandable, I would be glad to clarify any of youre misconceptions. You're doing this now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

So fine. You give up all youve said so far if you wish. So why? Why have faith? It comes down to that eh? I will be as sincere as I can. First of all I know there are things beyond my immediate understanding. Thats pretty evident just by living. Next I understand that our universe works by cause and effect and is therefore completely interrelated. The buddhist idea of Karma is probably the perfect example of this and the taoist cocept of the "Tao" is probably the perfect concept to illustrate it.

I know that in order for there to be cause and effect there must be opposites so that action takes place and matter and energy are moved. This can be seen in all forms of matter and energy.

therefore no action is ever without cause and effect. This is eternal and this must derive from somewhere/something/somehow which goes back to my ideas of what God "is".

The idea of Jesus as a man coming from heaven (literally or metaphorically) makes perfect sense to me in that God had to become Man, completely identify with Man, and that Jesus was this ultimate. Do I know for sure? No. Does it matter? Not really.

But I at least know there is an ultimate, there is man, and they are interrelated. And as archaic as that book may seem (or any religious text for that matter) and whatever you want to say about it we would be alot better off learning from it more than criticizing it. Not that criticism is bad of course. And we would infinitely better off trying to follow the golden rule that is in EVERY major and beautiful religion on this earth ("Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"-Jesus) , or more philosophically this "categorical imperative" ("Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law" - Immanuel Kant).

This idea is universal and is probably the greatest and extension of that ultimate that I am labeling as "God".

Tell me if I can help further. A really good book you should read is called "Mere Christianity". I dont think I have much more to say.

quote:Originally posted by H a r o l d:

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."



I totally agree. And "there are no atheists in a foxhole" lol.

To Piotr, because something is created does not destroy its validity. You are not recognizing internal innate factors. Reason for example, and logic, its guide. We define things by their relation to us which is why God is so hard to define. Because we cant fully understand (or be aware of) the nature of this relation. The more open youre outlook the easier it is to understand.

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:

typical atheist argument:

Atheist: God Doesn't Exist

Christian: Prove it!

Atheist: I don't have to, he doesnt exist, prove ME wrong.

If that's they "typical atheist argument" that you've seen, then you've surrounded yourself with morons...

quote:

I also find it funny that atheists rely on science and logic when in reality, science and logic are man made concepts. Travel back to the beginning of time where there were either simple humans or nothing at all. Ask them what number comes after 4. They probably couldn't tell you because that strain of "logical thinking" wasn't conjured up by humans yet.

Science and logic are "man-made". So what? How the hell is that funny in any way shape or form?

Hmmm I think TruthWielder is a troll. Long, multi-paragraph posts he manages to say nothing. At all.

I'm pretty sure, a Jesus like person did exist. Though I am absolutly sure that he didn't do any of the things that the bible said he did. He probably was just very advance for his time, and by advanced I mean advanced thinking. I mean, he just wasn't afraid to think different. And for some reason, people started believing in this, and over the years it turned into a religion.

For the people who don't like to read...just look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwJzAwmqQh8

quote:Originally posted by H a r o l d:

Seriously. Anyone who believes in a god figure is at least partly retarded. I can not imagine a more boring excuse for earth, life and the rest of the universe. If God just made all this up, I might as well kill myself now, since there is no mystery, nothing to learn, nothing to enlighten. Never mind that the history of the earth as it is told in all major religions has already been proven factually incorrect. Wow, a god figure can't be ruled out. What a great reason to believe in one. I mean, the universe exists. It's fucking huge. We exist. So does the earth and all the other life forms. It's tangible and blatant. I prefer to deal in that which exists. There is simply no rational argument for belief in god. If someone has one, I beg you to put it forth.



some people need to have faith in something to get up in the morning...personally, i'm not religious but i can see why someone would be. people need a reason for things that happen in the world, and people need an explanation about how they came to be. some people use science and reason, and others use religion. this whole argument about whose right and whose wrong is a big waste of time, because either side could be right or wrong. so....being mean to religious people is kind of irrational.

quote:Originally posted by glutamate antagonist:

ACTUALLY, he created it in six. SCIENTIFIC FACT.

He then had a rest on the seventh day. Because that's what a supernatural, omnipotent, divine being needs. His fucking beauty sleep.

hahahahaha

4)If you are too stupid to ever understand then you would have killed yourself already without asking that question. As a man you have been blessed with reason, this is your base for hope. You can therefore use it to your advantage and satisfaction. Unfortunately you havent which is why youre whining about God in an internet thread. All insecurities exude from internal feelings of inadequacy. Youre not satisfied with your imperfections and are complaining to all that exists like a whiny baby. Thats all. "Fake" you say? Read this: http://en. wikipedia. org/wiki/C ogito_ergo_sum (http: //en.wikip edia.org/w iki/Cogito _ergo_sum)

sorry, but it's kinda hard to take you seriously with a link to wikipedia, the most retarded and inaccurate "encyclopedia" i have ever had the misfortune of coming across. and your "answers" don't really answer the questions. so....don't mind if i laugh in your face. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

quote: Originally posted by Rust: If that's they "typical atheist argument" that you've seen, then you've surrounded yourself with morons...

Thats the Gist of every argument i've seen. No one side can proove or disprove the other. I've seen debates of religion span much larger subjects, but the gist of it all boils down to "i'm right becuase of this" Exageration and sarcasm were used there http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) Don't take me so seriously.



quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Science and logic are "man-made". So what? How the hell is that funny in any way shape or form?

I find it funny. Opinion. Look it up.

Piotr, the general argument I've seen actually goes something like this.

Atheist: I admit there is a possibility, but I don't believe in God because I've seen no evidence and it seems kind of silly.

Theist: There's loads of evidence! Take a look at the ontological argument of Anselm, the five proofs of Aquinas, Pailey's watchmaker analogy and this stuff that refutes evolution and carbon dating!

Atheist: *refutes all arguments that have been made a million times before and points out that even if evolution and carbon dating were wrong, which they're not, that that doesn't support the idea of the world being created by a God*

Theist: Er... YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE FAITH

Theist: *disappears for a month, returns, claims he was being bullied because there were more atheists than theists, claims he was undersourced and then makes the exact same fucking arguments as before*

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Piotr, the general argument I've seen actually goes something like this.

Atheist: I admit there is a possibility, but I don't believe in God because I've seen no evidence and it seems kind of silly.

Theist: There's loads of evidence! Take a look at the ontological argument of Anselm, the five proofs of Aquinas, Pailey's watchmaker analogy and this stuff that refutes evolution and carbon dating!

Atheist: *refutes all arguments that have been made a million times before and points out that even if evolution and carbon dating were wrong, which they're not, that that doesn't support the idea of the world being created by a God*

Theist: Er... YOU JUST HAVE TO HAVE FAITH

Theist: *disappears for a month, returns, claims he was being bullied because there were more atheists than theists, claims he was undersourced and then makes the exact same fucking arguments as before*



Just a beefed up version of "provide proof"

Mine was extremely simplistic and sarcastic http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:



Just a beefed up version of "provide proof"

Mine was extremely simplistic and sarcastic http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)



You certainly enjoy being sarcastic, but do you enjoy being an idiot, too? Hare_Geist's example of a typical atheist argument is not at all a beefed up version of an atheist saying "God doesn't exist; prove me wrong". What you provided as a typical atheist argument is no where near typical. Typical atheists don't believe that God/gods exist because there is no evidence to suggest they do, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Defending your idiotic accusation of what typical atheists say isn't making you look any brighter, even when trying to play it off as sarcasm.

quote:Originally posted by H a r o l d:

Hmmm I think TruthWielder is a troll. Long, multi-paragraph posts he manages to say nothing. At all.

Yes, yes I'm a troll. You've figured me out(are you fuckin retarded?). Geez...Im sorry I know how to argue man. Maybe you should try.

Again if ANYTHING I've said needs clarificatio I'll give it. If you dont possess the "intellectual fortitude" to just fuckin read and listen...oh well. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:You agree with me that only reason can help us understand yes?

No.

quote:You're teapot assertion can be disproved physically, logistically, and more besides.

So disprove it.

quote:Im sorry and I sympathize but that is tottally irrelevant and your whole teapot was just brain garbage typed on to totse. Useless.

You fail to understand it. We can’t prove God exists, we can’t prove God doesn’t exists, but that doesn’t mean we should believe in him since we can’t prove or disprove the teapot, the flying spaghetti monster or the tiny elephant in the room either.

quote:Universal, all permeating, all encompassing, all creating, God is the totality of all that which we perceive and that which we dont.

Oh, so you’re a pantheist - i.e. someone who renames the universe “god” in order to sound mystical and deep.

quote:The universe is part of Him

Oh, my bad, you’re a panetheist? You believe the universe is part of God but he is also a consciousness separate from it - something that has absolutely no fucking evidence whatsoever.

quote:Science can only go up to the limits of physical experimentation. I never said it was insignificant. Only limited. Your reason however, is unlimited. The next few sentences were just pissy whiny babble at the fact that youre revolt against existence is crumbling. EVERY...FUCKING...THING...I HAVE SAID...I...BACK....UP. With reason. I dont make light of my ignorance and pretend Im right.

You’ve not backed any of it up with reason. You’re sprouting a “bunch of gobbledygook.” You’ve yet to prove there’s more than the physical world.





[This message has been edited by Hare_Geist (edited 03-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by xray:

[QUOTE]

You certainly enjoy being sarcastic, but do you enjoy being an idiot, too? Hare_Geist's example of a typical atheist argument is not at all a beefed up version of an atheist saying "God doesn't exist; prove me wrong". What you provided as a typical atheist argument is no where near typical. Typical atheists don't believe that God/gods exist because there is no evidence to suggest they do, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Defending your idiotic accusation of what typical atheists say isn't making you look any brighter, even when trying to play it off as sarcasm.



Wow you're so much more intelligent than me.

Whats your secret?

I think Hare_Geist can speak up on his own if he had a problem. Thanks though http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

But seriously, relax. You're not getting anywhere calling anyone an idiot http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

And i'm not trying to look brighter at all. Chill.

You'll live longer.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



[This message has been edited by Piotr (edited 03-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:

Wow you're so much more intelligent than me.

Whats your secret?

Intelligence can't be taught, so I don't have any secrets.

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:

I think Hare_Geist can speak up on his own if he had a problem. Thanks though http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

I never spoke for Hare_Geist.

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:

But seriously, relax. You're not getting anywhere calling anyone an idiot http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

The idiot comment was just an aside. I was hoping to get somewhere explaining to you what atheists really think, but I think you're more interested in smiley faces and attempting to get under others skin.

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:

And i'm not trying to look brighter at all. Chill.

You'll live longer.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Don't worry; you didn't get me worked up.

quote:Originally posted by Piotr:

Thats the Gist of every argument i've seen. No one side can proove or disprove the other. I've seen debates of religion span much larger subjects, but the gist of it all boils down to "i'm right becuase of this" Exageration and sarcasm were used there Don't take me so seriously.

1. Virtually all arguments boil down to "I'm right because of this"... That, coupled (or exchanged) with the ever so popular "You're wrong because of this", is pretty much the definition of an argument!

2. Like I said, it appears you've surrounded yourself by morons if that's the "gist" of the arguments you've heard.

quote:

I find it funny. Opinion. Look it up.



Thank you Captain Obvious, I guessed that you "found it funny" which is exactly why I asked how you found it funny.

I was assuming you found some sort of irony I didn't manage to see in atheists using "man-made" Science and logic.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 03-28-2007).]

Ive seen a debate between a creationist and an evolution and what i saw was the evolutionist had the SAME EXACT argument because the creationist had slides ready incase such points were made by the evolutionists.

BTW the slides the man had were of his counter point to the evolutionists point that he made from the question asked from the question giver(I dont know what they call those ppl so stfu)

but i bet you will dismiss this as http://itsatrap.ytmnd.com/

[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 03-28-2007).]

Get the FUCK out of my thread, SAMMY249 you dumbshit.

Im sorry for giving you the truth.

Lol, srsly get banned troll.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Ive seen a debate between a creationist and an evolution and what i saw was the evolutionist had the SAME EXACT argument because the creationist had slides ready incase such points were made by the evolutionists.

BTW the slides the man had were of his counter point to the evolutionists point that he made from the question asked from the question giver(I dont know what they call those ppl so stfu)

but i bet you will dismiss this as http://itsatrap.ytmnd.com/



WTF is there to dismiss? You just said that an evolutionist and a creationist had an argument where the evolutionist used the same arguments and the creationist counterpointed with pretty pictures. You didn't even prove the creationist was right. Once again, your post is void of any content.

quote:Originally posted by xray:

[QUOTE]

Intelligence can't be taught, so I don't have any secrets.

Cool.

quote:



I never spoke for Hare_Geist.

You seemed adamant in telling me what he meant. No worries though.

quote:



The idiot comment was just an aside. I was hoping to get somewhere explaining to you what atheists really think, but I think you're more interested in smiley faces and attempting to get under others skin.

I don't care what atheists "really think." I think atheists and christians alike have good reasons, and stupid reasons to believe what they believe in. I take both sides in every argument, or at least attempt to. I think its stupid SOME atheists think they are better than others just as other christitans think the same. I hate religion, and i hate what its done to mankind. But i just sit back and watch the arguments unfold because i happen to be interested in them. And yeah, sometimes i post good points, and sometimes i post things that people find stupid. Well, it sounded good in my mind, that doesnt mean you have to agree with me http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

As for the smileys, they worked didnt they? http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:



Don't worry; you didn't get me worked up.



Awesome

quote:1. Virtually all arguments boil down to "I'm right because of this"... That, coupled (or exchanged) with the ever so popular "You're wrong because of this", is pretty much the definition of an argument!

2. Like I said, it appears you've surrounded yourself by morons if that's the "gist" of the arguments you've heard.



Thank you Captain Obvious, I guessed that you "found it funny" which is exactly why I asked how you found it funny.

I was assuming you found some sort of irony I didn't manage to see in atheists using "man-made" Science and logic.



I think all religious arguments are futile and pointless. Yes there are a lot of moronic arguments, but there are a lot of arguments that are extremely intelligent and boil down to certain things. Its not always proof, or i'm right you're wrong, but it usually is. Whether you use it in 1 word, or 100000 words. I don't care how good your knowledge of history or the english language is. You can say some things in more than one way. Thats what i meant. And no not every argument is like that, so get off of my sack.

I find it funny that some atheists ( i don't know about the rest of you) rely on things that deal with perception and the physical realm. And as all people, we also believe in some things that we cannot proove without a book. Much like some Christians with the whole Bible thing. Is there oxygen in the air? Something you can only say there is proof of because its in a book somewhere. Will i believe it because its been "proven" by some scientist i've never met, seen, or heard about? Its probably just made up, but thats all i was getting at.

So yea

To hare geist (because im a dumbass that doesnt know how to quote...):

a) What else is there other than reason (the logical understanding of causation? As in the rational way of getting from a premise to a conclusion)? What else?

b)physically: The teapot would be destroyed in the vacuum by pressure, temperature, or by free roaming particles.

logistically: there is no way to prove someone put a teapot around the sun, nor that anyone/thing would have the capability to or the reason.

more besides: that "teapot" idea is inane and just a weak and shallow metaphor in the same spirit of the "spaghetti monster".

c)I dont think you read or understood anything I said...

d)No, not a pantheist. I am different in that a patheist believes that God and the universe are equivalent. I retain the idea that the physical universe comes forth from and is an extension of God. Not the sum total of what God is.

e) part of him. Not equivalent to. Therefore not a pantheist. No, not necessarily a consciousness because that is a human attribute. Possibly in the same vein though, but if I knew the exact nature of God (i.e. everything)I would be telling you. Of course I dont. However my basis for this belief is as follows: Not everything can be perceived through the senses. Cause and effect takes place whether we notice it or not even atomically. Think of the law of inertia. Something in motion will stay in motion (existence) something still will stay still unless it is moved. We moved. By what? An eternal mover, which is simply another way of saying the totality of all energy in the universe. However this had to begin somewhere with something that is "1". Due to the inescapable interrelation of matter and energy we are all therefore pieces of this "1" while due to the individual perspective of our existence (when without reason) we see ourselves as composites. Therefore there is the "1" and we are "1". And I just think onwards from there.

f) Gobbledygook? Not my fault if you refuse to listen. Ok. What else needs clarification?



Btw I dont really think about this stuff before hand. It just feels right to me yet happens to make sense. I dunno. I could be wrong. Disprove me. As long as reason prevails I know I will get to the right answer.

good to know someones looking beyond the immediately obvious

quote:A)[…] B)[…]

You don’t get it. The point of the teapot is this: we can’t prove there is a God, but just because we can’t prove there isn’t a God doesn’t mean we should believe in a God.

A better example is this: for all you know, behind you could be this little pink creature the size of a ball that is always watching you but every time someone looks in its direction it automatically turns invisible, making it impossible to detect. You can’t prove or disprove this for certain, but that doesn’t mean you should believe in it. It’s an allegory.

quote: c)I dont think you read or understood anything I said...

I did, I just didn’t agree.

quote: d)[…] e)[…]

Basically what you said is that there is a starting point we’re all connected to that isn’t conscious like a being is conscious. I have no comment, because this is speculative and currently unsubstantiated, and even if you’re right, which there is a possibility of, I wouldn’t call what you described “god”.

quote: f) Gobbledygook? Not my fault if you refuse to listen. Ok. What else needs clarification?

I am listening. Perhaps “gobbledygook” was the wrong word. I think “bullshit” is more accurate, don’t you?

a) Right. Yes, ok, Ive seen what you're saying but the thing is none of the metaphors are valid in themselves as they dont relate to a definition of God, only to the fact that the idea of "God" is difficult to prove. Heres the problem with the ball, there is no who, what, when, where, why, or how answer to it. No point. No validity. So essentially for that methaphor to work you would have to prove this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

b)Ok. You still havent refuted me (told me why).

c)No, a starting point whose nature I cannot fathom. I said that it may have some sort of consciousness or something like that but I say now that it is something that is probably unfathomable. Speculative? Unsubstantiated? I gave my argument and your saying its wrong without saying why? Hmmm.... And who do you think you are? Do you think something should be defined by the label that you give it? You see im not trying to narrow the definition of "God". But you can call "God" the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" or "Randy Richards". It doesnt matter. My foot is my foot even if I like to call it "Sally O'Toole".

d) Why are you feeling so vulnerable? Nervous? Thinking in ways that scare you? Well Im sorry. Im not arguing just to piss you off. Im sorry if you getting negative feelings because of me. Truth isnt kind. Not that I claim to know any truth. So what other "Gobbledygook" that I've spewed needs clarification?

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Ive seen a debate between a creationist and an evolution and what i saw was the evolutionist had the SAME EXACT argument because the creationist had slides ready incase such points were made by the evolutionists.

BTW the slides the man had were of his counter point to the evolutionists point that he made from the question asked from the question giver(I dont know what they call those ppl so stfu)

but i bet you will dismiss this as http://itsatrap.ytmnd.com/



WTF is there to dismiss? You just said that an evolutionist and a creationist had an argument where the evolutionist used the same arguments and the creationist counterpointed with pretty pictures. You didn't even prove the creationist was right. Once again, your post is void of any content.

I wasnt trying to prove anything other then ppls bias judgement when they say "creationist have the same argument over and over again" when it seems evolutionists do the same.

BTW i wasnt trying to be a pompous ass i just wanted to make sure there wasnt confusion on what i was trying to convey.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

I wasnt trying to prove anything other then ppls bias judgement when they say "creationist have the same argument over and over again" when it seems evolutionists do the same.

BTW i wasnt trying to be a pompous ass i just wanted to make sure there wasnt confusion on what i was trying to convey.

There's a difference though. Evolution hasn't been refuted, the creationist arguments have, so you think they'd get some new ones.

quote:Originally posted by H a r o l d:

Seriously. Anyone who believes in a god figure is at least partly retarded. I can not imagine a more boring excuse for earth, life and the rest of the universe. If God just made all this up, I might as well kill myself now, since there is no mystery, nothing to learn, nothing to enlighten. Never mind that the history of the earth as it is told in all major religions has already been proven factually incorrect. Wow, a god figure can't be ruled out. What a great reason to believe in one. I mean, the universe exists. It's fucking huge. We exist. So does the earth and all the other life forms. It's tangible and blatant. I prefer to deal in that which exists. There is simply no rational argument for belief in god. If someone has one, I beg you to put it forth.



I'm not sure how you believe the universe was created. The scientific explanation is just as lame as "God did it." Their explanation is "it's always been here." That's pretty simplistic as well. It doesn't really fit with what we know about the rest of the universe; we can see/figure out a beginning for everything else.

quote: a) Right. Yes, ok, Ive seen what you're saying but the thing is none of the metaphors are valid in themselves as they dont relate to a definition of God, only to the fact that the idea of "God" is difficult to prove. Heres the problem with the ball, there is no who, what, when, where, why, or how answer to it. No point. No validity. So essentially for that methaphor to work you would have to prove this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

Perhaps it’s difficult to prove because it’s not real, eh? Until there’s evidence there’s not really any point believing in God. Oh, and you claiming I need to prove nihilism - i.e. the belief in nothing - to prove the non-existence of God is fucking idiotic, unless you mean by God the beginning of the universe, which is then you just renaming something that may not be anything like the generally accepted view of God or may not have even happened, since it is possible the world was always here.

quote: b)Ok. You still havent refuted me (told me why).

Yes, I have.

quote: c)No, a starting point whose nature I cannot fathom. I said that it may have some sort of consciousness or something like that but I say now that it is something that is probably unfathomable. Speculative? Unsubstantiated? I gave my argument and your saying its wrong without saying why? Hmmm.... And who do you think you are? Do you think something should be defined by the label that you give it? You see im not trying to narrow the definition of "God". But you can call "God" the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" or "Randy Richards". It doesnt matter. My foot is my foot even if I like to call it "Sally O'Toole".

Let’s see, you make the assumption that there is a starting point, go on to say that you cannot fathom this starting point, start speculating about whether or not it has things like consciousness, and rename “beginning” “God”. That sounds incredibly unsubstantiated and speculative to me.

As for your foot argument, you can call the universe God if you want, I don’t care, but I still think “God”, like everything else, needs a working definition to refute or alter, especially in the west where we’ve been indoctrinated heavily in Judaism.

quote: d) Why are you feeling so vulnerable? Nervous? Thinking in ways that scare you? Well Im sorry. Im not arguing just to piss you off. Im sorry if you getting negative feelings because of me. Truth isnt kind. Not that I claim to know any truth. So what other "Gobbledygook" that I've spewed needs clarification?

I’m not feeling vulnerable, nor nervous. I was being honest when I said I think you’re talking nonsense, and it’s quite clear that you are when you openly admit to just typing the first thing that comes into your head without thinking about it (which is also precisely why it is speculative, I might add).

Anyways, Nothing needs clarification. Me disagreeing with you doesn’t equal me misunderstanding you; hence why I said “Perhaps “gobbledygook” was the wrong word. I think “bullshit” is more accurate, don’t you?” This implies I understand you but think you’re spreading falsities.

quote:Originally posted by Connor MacManus:

I'm not sure how you believe the universe was created. The scientific explanation is just as lame as "God did it." Their explanation is "it's always been here." That's pretty simplistic as well. It doesn't really fit with what we know about the rest of the universe; we can see/figure out a beginning for everything else.

Troll, because you've obviously heard of the big bang, no?

Whew, sorry I took so long. Vacationing at the moment in D.C. Anyway...

a) Ok WTF is up with that baseless premise? Here is what you said: Only untrue things are difficult to prove (uh...wrong) and God is difficult to prove so... God isnt real. Awesome. Uh yeah, by God I mean the beginning of the universe (by any other name). Wtf? I told you my idea of God. This "traditional idea" is...what? A dude with a white beard and a toga? Oh? Its unclear? And you cant refute and of the attributes that I attributed to the idea of "God"? Damn this argument was pretty easily won.



b)No you havent. You need to do it like this: A + B = C Give fact, give reason, and then conclusion.

c) Speculative? Yes. (its an argument my friend) Assumption? Yes. The basis of any argument. Unsubtantiated? No shit. Thats why we're arguing. I have given my proof yet you have not been able to find any flaws in them. Youre trying to use rhetoric now to win the argument as apposed to logic. Whatever. And no, Im not calling the universe God. We went over this already. I gave my definition of what the being is. I described its attributes. Eastern or Western concepts of God have nothing to do with this. This argument isnt cultural.

d)Nonsense? For someone who speaks only babble, gobbledygook, and nonsense I have yet to be (logically) refuted on any point. Try again. And no. The arbitrary nature of my argument is just what socrates did long ago. Her listened, thought, and spoke. He did not allow himself preconceived notions unlike you. He simply thought, and asked questions.

Uh...speculative? Yes. Thats the point.

Haha, ok, when you cant get around the barrier you spit on it. No prob. Just do me a favor and tell me what evil I am doing and where I am spreading falsities. A hell of an assumption dont you agree?

Well now that you've admitted that your opinion is merely speculative and unsubstantiated I assume you can STFU. Generally an argument involves both sides thinking they're right and barring both being complete bullshitting morons, they try to cite sources or back up what they are saying in some way. We have, you have not. GTFO.

Bumpification