Many proponents of Religion state that the fact that humans have a conscience or sense of right and wrong, that this is evidence of the afterlife/god/permanent existence/etc... Those that argue this would say, "well for the continuation of the species the conscience is neccesary for the teamwork needed for the species to survive"

My question is do you believe the conscience is evidence of "A God Figure" or some other existential/religious view.

quote:that this is evidence of the afterlife/god/permanent existence/etc... Those that argue this would say, "well for the continuation of the species the conscience is neccesary for the teamwork needed for the species to survive"



I hardly see how those are exclusive of eachother.

I believe that the conscience is not a physical part of your brain, however I don't see why this would have anything to do with a god, religion or the afterlife.

A conscience does not directly come from God. I have a healthy disbelief in God, yet I have stronger morals than many religious folk I know.

The right winger nutjob idea that all atheists are devoid of a moral compass is simply absurd.

i read once that scientist had determined that people are born with a believe in god in their brain.

but anyway, i lyed awake all night last night listening to the lame sound of cars going bye,thinking about the swiwho's.

every time i think that swiwho#3 is around

i get exitedly joyous,but then i start thinking bout swiwho#1 and my joy turns into sadness.





[This message has been edited by brad davis (edited 03-19-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by fungo:

I believe that the conscience is not a physical part of your brain, however I don't see why this would have anything to do with a god, religion or the afterlife.

I personally see consciousness as a process created in the brain that by definition is always conscious of something. I also see it as quite obviously a trait created by evolution, without which we wouldn't have been able to survive for so long, since we are rather weak physically compared to apes.

A group people like a tribe with a gene to help each other are likely to reproduce faster and spread.

quote:Originally posted by MolecularMollusc:

A conscience does not directly come from God. I have a healthy disbelief in God, yet I have stronger morals than many religious folk I know.



that does nothing to contribute to the arguement! The arguement is how could we have a conscience if there was no God, that doesnt mean people who dont believe in God cant have one. theres only one real answer and no one knows, so trying to say that you dont believe but have a conscience must mean there isnt one, is completely a retarded thing to say. not trying to start a fight but try to not bring up useless info that doesnt even aply to the topics q.

quote:Originally posted by MolecularMollusc:

A conscience does not directly come from God. I have a healthy disbelief in God, yet I have stronger morals than many religious folk I know.



that does nothing to contribute to the arguement! The arguement is how could we have a conscience if there was no God, that doesnt mean people who dont believe in God cant have one. theres only one real answer and no one knows, so trying to say that you dont believe but have a conscience must mean there isnt one, is completely a retarded thing to say. not trying to start a fight but try to not bring up useless info that doesnt even aply to the topics q.

Science has yet to supply us with a clear definition/explination of what the conscience is to begin with. So any answer anybody can come up with is philosophy.

If i had to form a hypothesis, to lead in a direction to start studying i would have to say a conscience is formed from our complex short and long term memory storage. Even know we dont understand that completly yet either. Pretty close though, we know the parts of the brain responsible, but when those parts are damaged memories can still last in some cases. Because what is conscience, the ability to set short term goals for long term success, the ability to ask questions to yourself, then answer them yourself. Which includes asking yourself would that other person/animal like to be punched in the face, well i wouldnt so i bet they wouldnt either (which leads to morals).

There studies and experiments going on where people are recording the electrical impulse of every single nuron of a brain, and uploading it into a computer. Attempting to make a computer conscience. Pretty crazy shit, if that ever succeeds that will further our understanding.

Societal organisation comes through governmental revolutions but I think for the most part morality comes from religion, it's a learned thing.

For example, the hook of christianity is this love for your fellow man thing, equal under god. I think christianity has given the western world it's moral base.

I think you'll see more different morals (compared to the west) in countries without christianity.

This fits in with my idea of religion as a device for propelling human growth. For example christianity engineers a love for all to help a large group of people prosper and procreate.

In short: human conscience and morality is a learned device for the growth of the community. Some more successful than others.

The human conscience, the evolution of morality and religion -

Reciprocal Altruism (http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0511055625) explains a lot.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

I hardly see how those are exclusive of eachother.



rizzo what he's saying is that in the religously influenced, they're absorbed into their little messes of shit and look only towards god as their answer(christians anyway). and the fact of it remains that they're all tripping over their own 2 feet getting their shit together, all because they get to ask for forgiveness. so to speak. they;re too lazy to accept the fucking concept that this life is about YOU and YOUR WANTS and NEEDS. the desires in your heart are there for a reason. because once they've been fulfilled the life we live we be noble.

yeah i'm stoned. and this was gonna be better articulated but i just got lazy as shit.

quote:Originally posted by brad davis:

i read once that scientist had determined that people are born with a believe in god in their brain.

I wasn't.

neither was i

quote:Originally posted by eXo5:



rizzo what he's saying is that in the religously influenced, they're absorbed into their little messes of shit and look only towards god as their answer(christians anyway). and the fact of it remains that they're all tripping over their own 2 feet getting their shit together, all because they get to ask for forgiveness. so to speak. they;re too lazy to accept the fucking concept that this life is about YOU and YOUR WANTS and NEEDS. the desires in your heart are there for a reason. because once they've been fulfilled the life we live we be noble.

yeah i'm stoned. and this was gonna be better articulated but i just got lazy as shit.

Can you really speak with 100% certaintity that you're right? Is it really about you?

Indeed, who are you? Are you your body? Basically an electrical field dominated by chemical reactions in the form of emotions? Is that you? Is that all to the story?

Do you really think you're right?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Indeed, who are you? Are you your body? Basically an electrical field dominated by chemical reactions in the form of emotions? Is that you? Is that all to the story?

Do you really think you're right?

Rizzo ... where are you going with this? Anywhere?

quote:Originally posted by Nate7667:

Many proponents of Religion state that the fact that humans have a conscience or sense of right and wrong, that this is evidence of the afterlife/god/permanent existence/etc... Those that argue this would say, "well for the continuation of the species the conscience is neccesary for the teamwork needed for the species to survive"

My question is do you believe the conscience is evidence of "A God Figure" or some other existential/religious view.

While in fact, humans can make a determined judgement on what is right and wrong, i cannot imagine a world where God is accepted to be in existance, by humans. Humans kill becuase aniamilistic nature will remain. For how long, "i dont know"....

for intance,

a person within reason, has a sense of being but cannot fullfill there reason for living, almost like being an animal under the cosh of superiority. What shall happen? Will God save me or will i be superior?



boozehound420 _

quote



Because what is conscience, the ability to set short term goals for long term success, the ability to ask questions to yourself, then answer them yourself. Which includes asking yourself would that other person/animal like to be punched in the face, well i wouldnt so i bet they wouldnt either (which leads to morals).

quote:Originally posted by Nate7667:

Many proponents of Religion state that the fact that humans have a conscience or sense of right and wrong, that this is evidence of the afterlife/god/permanent existence/etc... Those that argue this would say, "well for the continuation of the species the conscience is neccesary for the teamwork needed for the species to survive"

My question is do you believe the conscience is evidence of "A God Figure" or some other existential/religious view.

While in fact, humans can make a determined judgement on what is right and wrong, i cannot imagine a world where God is accepted to be in existance, by humans. Humans kill becuase aniamilistic nature will remain. For how long, "i dont know"....

for intance,

a person within reason, has a sense of being but cannot fullfill there reason for living, almost like being an animal under the cosh of superiority. What shall happen? Will God save me or will i be superior?



boozehound420 _

quote



Because what is conscience, the ability to set short term goals for long term success, the ability to ask questions to yourself, then answer them yourself. Which includes asking yourself would that other person/animal like to be punched in the face, well i wouldnt so i bet they wouldnt either (which leads to morals).

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Rizzo ... where are you going with this? Anywhere?



Am I going somewhere? Probably. Do I know where I'm going? Rarely. Do I leave it up to fate/chance/God? Pretty much. Has it worked? I'd say so.

LOL

I meant - what was the point you were driving at in relation to what eXo5 posted?

If you could clarify it for me without speaking in riddles, that would be cool, too.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Our conscience is a little peice of God that helps us in our lives.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:



Societal organisation comes through governmental revolutions but I think for the most part morality comes from religion, it's a learned thing.

For example, the hook of christianity is this love for your fellow man thing, equal under god. I think christianity has given the western world it's moral base.

I think you'll see more different morals (compared to the west) in countries without christianity.

This fits in with my idea of religion as a device for propelling human growth. For example christianity engineers a love for all to help a large group of people prosper and procreate.

In short: human conscience and morality is a learned device for the growth of the community. Some more successful than others.

im aghast sir.

Have you ever read the Bible? Morality is not caused by religion (as declared by the "Moral Zeitgast") as we can see it ebbs and flows from age to age despite the fact taht religion has remained constant.

Look at Isaac's sacrafice, in modern day he would've been place in jail for attempted murder and child abuse. Had he actually gone THROUGH with killing his son: first degree murder.

You can't say morals come from teh bible (thinking about the 10 commandments).. then ignore all the horrible blood-shedding "God" did or told people to do in the rest of the bible.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:



Reciprocal Altruism (http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0511055625) explains a lot.



Indeed. Incidentally, I lost my faith in Biology class.

I want you to have my babies rizzo. Fucking genius man. Every time I see you post, it's fucking golden.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

LOL

I meant - what was the point you were driving at in relation to what eXo5 posted?

If you could clarify it for me without speaking in riddles, that would be cool, too.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

No riddles? Maybe rhyme, then.

Observe the observer, and soon you see

There is no observer, not you, not me

Dead bodies lay limp, holding no soul

Loss of the chimp, no illusion of control

quote:I want you to have my babies rizzo. Fucking genius man. Every time I see you post, it's fucking golden.



I live to serve. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

[This message has been edited by Rizzo in a box (edited 03-22-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

Am I going somewhere? Probably. Do I know where I'm going? Rarely. Do I leave it up to fate/chance/God? Pretty much. Has it worked? I'd say so.

You may fool others, but you don't fool me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Hare_Geist:

You may fool others, but you don't fool me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

What the hell are you talking about?

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

What the hell are you talking about?

Wouldn't you like to know? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:



Observe the observer, and soon you see

There is no observer, not you, not me

Dead bodies lay limp, holding no soul

Loss of the chimp, no illusion of control

Poetry interpretation night in the God forum! w00t!!

1st Stanza: Look within yourself

2nd Stanza: No one really exists

3rd Stanza: Souls don't exist

4th Stanza: Control is tangible

Jesus wept.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Poetry interpretation night in the God forum! w00t!!

1st Stanza: Look within yourself

2nd Stanza: No one really exists

3rd Stanza: Souls don't exist

4th Stanza: Control is tangible

Jesus wept.



Oooh, pretty close, but not quite.

First stanza, you got right

Second stanza is a reference to Schrödinger's cat, not so much saying that "no one really exists" (as your own existence can not be disproven), but that you are not an objective observer. By observing this world you become part of it.

The third stanza is a pseudo-argument for the soul, not believing that a material body is all that makes up a "person", after observing dead bodies.

The fourth stanza you actually have completely wrong. All of man's efforts and everything he does revolves around one thing: death. He knows it's coming and he's trying to stop it.

death = unknown = fear

control = power = knowledge

I think people should debate through poetry more often.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

I think people should debate through poetry more often.

Will never fly, as most people prefer clear, direct dialogue without all the metaphor and hyperbole.

But I'll rhyme-debate, just this once, because I thought your poem was nifty:

My interpretation beats up your interpretation!

Religion & existence, mixed, brews hardcore trepidation.

Pull your head out of the clouds and soon you might discover -

That clinging to a faith-based limb will likely blow your cover!

For one can't claim to seek their truths while tethered to a God -

Who truly is, in one big sense - an angry, spiteful Mod!

It just all kind of fell apart at the end http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

/half-assed limerick that illustrates a point, nonetheless

Edit: On second glance, I think my limerick captures what eXo5 said earlier:

quote: rizzo what he's saying is that in the religously influenced, they're absorbed into their little messes of shit and look only towards god as their answer(christians anyway). and the fact of it remains that they're all tripping over their own 2 feet getting their shit together, all because they get to ask for forgiveness. so to speak. they;re too lazy to accept the fucking concept that this life is about YOU and YOUR WANTS and NEEDS. the desires in your heart are there for a reason. because once they've been fulfilled the life we live we be noble.



[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 03-23-2007).]