So yesterday my mom let me use her car to go to the mall and I was putting some gas in it when I noticed a little sign on the gas pump that said "May contain up to 10% Ethanol." I was SUPER pissed off when I saw this because gas is like 2.65 for the Super Premium Unleaded and yet I'm just getting barely 90% real gas? What is this crap? Anyway, I was so mad that I went to a few otherr gas stations looking for one that gave the real deal and after a while I realized that they all diluted their fuel with ethanol.

How do they get away with this crap?

ethanol actually raises the octane of a fuel as ethanol has an octane of between 110-120

ethanol is also used in various high performance drag racing cars and motorsport races

so whats the problem?

Ethenal is alchohal dumbass. Its fucken moonshine. Nothing wrong with 10% in your gas.

quote:Originally posted by myheartsahandgrenade:

diluted their fuel with ethanol.

Contradiction in terms.

Go learn some basics about hydrocarbons.

[/thread]

-deus-

You losers are missing the point. I want to buy pure, unadulterated gasoline, free of unwanted pollutants, and as an American citizen, I have that right. I don't want all these damn chemicals in my gas. It's a simple question of getting what you pay for.

quote:Originally posted by myheartsahandgrenade:

You losers are missing the point. I want to buy pure, unadulterated gasoline, free of unwanted pollutants, and as an American citizen, I have that right. I don't want all these damn chemicals in my gas. It's a simple question of getting what you pay for.

ladies and gentlmen, ignorance at it's finest.

You should be thanking them for offering you a better quality of product.

quote:Originally posted by myheartsahandgrenade:

You losers are missing the point. I want to buy pure, unadulterated gasoline, free of unwanted pollutants, and as an American citizen, I have that right. I don't want all these damn chemicals in my gas. It's a simple question of getting what you pay for.

Vasectomies should be mandatory for people like you.

quote:Originally posted by MolecularMollusc:

Vasectomies should be mandatory for people like you.

and/or death

haha, wow you're brilliant

DONT USE THAT GAS unless you have a muscle car you dont need it. 90% you just need regular.

DONT USE THAT GAS unless you have a muscle car you dont need it. 90% you just need regular.

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Eh, ethanol achieves higher compression, so you're actually getting more power. 10% is a good balance between power and economy, and is too little to require any kind of change to any engine. Fine by me.

quote:Originally posted by myheartsahandgrenade:

You losers are missing the point. I want to buy pure, unadulterated gasoline, free of unwanted pollutants, and as an American citizen, I have that right. I don't want all these damn chemicals in my gas. It's a simple question of getting what you pay for.

well your a dumbass. ethanol actually cleans the environment. fossil fuels pollute it.

I am, honestly, shocked at the rank ignorance in this thread.

quote:Nothing wrong with 10% in your gas.

Except that ethanol contains much less energy than gasoline per volume. Not to mention older cars like mine dont like it too much.

quote:Go learn some basics about hydrocarbons.

See above.

quote:You should be thanking them for offering you a better quality of product.

I would say its worse because Im getting less gasoline and more crap.

quote:Eh, ethanol achieves higher compression, so you're actually getting more power. 10% is a good balance between power and economy, and is too little to require any kind of change to any engine. Fine by me.

2 problems: First is that ethanol has a higher ctane rating so it can take more compression. It doesnt magically raise the compression rati of your engine, and if your charge is rich enough to significantly do so, your fuel milage sucks balls.

Another thing is that since ethanol has less energy per unit volume, your fuel milage is OBVIOUSLY less than if that %10 was gasoline.

Also be aware that the octane rating of the gasoline 10 years ago and now havent changed, regardless of adding a far higher octane fuel into the fuel. Obviously oil companies are putting shitty gas (the kind you could find only in the middle of Siberia or the ass-end of Mexico) into the mix and then bringing the octane back up with ethanol.

Thus oil companies are making even MORE money by cutting out refining costs.

quote:Originally posted by myheartsahandgrenade:

You losers are missing the point. I want to buy pure, unadulterated gasoline, free of unwanted pollutants, and as an American citizen, I have that right. I don't want all these damn chemicals in my gas. It's a simple question of getting what you pay for.

LULZ.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

it doesnt magically raise the compression ratio of your engine.

Nobody ever understands this fact, and it shits me. Nomatter how much you say it, another idiot pops up with another stupid statement.

Its whack-a-mole.

quote:Originally posted by myheartsahandgrenade:

You losers are missing the point. I want to buy pure, unadulterated gasoline, free of unwanted pollutants, and as an American citizen, I have that right. I don't want all these damn chemicals in my gas. It's a simple question of getting what you pay for.

do you even know what gasoline actually is?

go look it up real quick and come back and post "YEAH OF COURSE I DO".

I live in NY, and we have 10% ethanol in our gas. Our gas is $2.72/gal. right now...

quote:Originally posted by myheartsahandgrenade:

You losers are missing the point. I want to buy pure, unadulterated gasoline, free of unwanted pollutants, and as an American citizen, I have that right. I don't want all these damn chemicals in my gas. It's a simple question of getting what you pay for.

Also, ethanol and gasoline are "technically" the same. It doesn't make your car run any different. It's eco-friendly.

Edit: And by "technically" the same, you know what I mean...

[This message has been edited by Pirate Hippie (edited 03-23-2007).]

If you want to know exactly what goes in your gas you need to buy it in five gallon cans from a racing fuel supplyer. You can even get leaded if you want.

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

If you want to know exactly what goes in your gas you need to buy it in five gallon cans from a racing fuel supplyer. You can even get leaded if you want.

this is true, fuck most of the time theres water in your gas. If theres even a small leak in the lids of the storage tanks and it starts raining, you get water in the gas. Which happens alot since the 14 year old pimpled emo's dont know fuck about seals ment to keep water out. There was a few gas stations around here, Tempo to be exact. And my friends big block would clearly run shitty after, we funneled it out, put some good gas in and bam, of we went.

quote:Originally posted by needtoknow:

DONT USE THAT GAS unless you have a muscle car you dont need it. 90% you just need regular.

_____________________________________________

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Linux, applications, terminal,

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OTHER: connect to 207.6.79.246 on port 22

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Why did you post that?

Holy shit.

This is why we need better science education in public schools.

ZOMG HOMOGAY

You can get gas with and without ethanol around here, but ethanol is far more common. But, the gas with ethanol is less expensive (making the price per mile driven comparable with straight gas), it's better for the environment, and helps clean the fuel system. In small concentrations, it's just fine. If your car has an O2 sensor, it will automatically adjust to use more fuel so the engine doesn't burn too lean. Carbeurated engines will probably still run fine, but may need minor adjustments of the mixture screws. They will just have to be backed out a tiny bit, if anything.

Don't worry about it man. Just find the cheapest gas you can and quit complaining.

quote:Originally posted by lifejunkie:

Holy shit.

This is why we need better science education in public schools.



i find it almost scary, how little people know about basics like this.

If it's corn ethanol, it really doesn't do shit for the environment.

quote:Originally posted by myheartsahandgrenade:

You losers are missing the point. I want to buy pure, unadulterated gasoline, free of unwanted pollutants, and as an American citizen, I have that right. I don't want all these damn chemicals in my gas. It's a simple question of getting what you pay for.

Yeah and ethanol is more expensive than gas so its twice as stupid...

but the neosocs and the commies don't tell you THAT, do they.

[This message has been edited by -metalhead- (edited 03-24-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by yixil:

If it's corn ethanol, it really doesn't do shit for the environment.

ethanol isn't really an environmental advantage anyway, no matter what the source. the reason it is so big is because it is cheap and re-newable; decreasing dependence on the middle east. in terms of emissions it is about 20% lower, nothing special and not really alot when used as a 10% additive.

adding 10% to fuel doesn't effect the car. all car manufacturers are happy to allow 10% ethanol in fuel. some even recommend it due to environmental benefits.

most places (i know BP does, with 5%) add bio-diesel to diesel to lower the price a bit. where advertised as 20%, it is about 5% cheaper.

but to the guy who said that he has a right to buy what he wants, you don't have that right. you have a right to buy whatever shit the oil companies want to sell you.

quote:Originally posted by RAOVQ:

ethanol isn't really an environmental advantage anyway, no matter what the source. the reason it is so big is because it is cheap and re-newable; decreasing dependence on the middle east. in terms of emissions it is about 20% lower, nothing special and not really alot when used as a 10% additive.

The reason they use it is to drive up corn prices.

quote:Originally posted by RAOVQ:

ladies and gentlmen, ignorance at it's finest.

i was thinking the same

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

The reason they use it is to drive up corn prices.

So the petroleum companies use corn ethanol to drive up the price of corn, and therefore the price of corn ethanal?

So they use a product to increase it's price?

So they use it so they can pay more?

Nice fucking logic.

-deus-

quote:Originally posted by needtoknow:

windows,start, run, telnet 207.6.79.246 22

Linux, applications, terminal,

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OTHER: connect to 207.6.79.246 on port 22

Its a warez, hacking, chat room

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DONT SUPPORT USE OR MOTIVATE WAREZ

What?

quote:Originally posted by deus-redux:

So the petroleum companies use corn ethanol to drive up the price of corn, and therefore the price of corn ethanal?

So they use a product to increase it's price?

So they use it so they can pay more?

Nice fucking logic.

-deus-

Cron is an unprofitable crop that the US government subsidises up the wazoo. The corn lobby found another use for it and are pushing it. There are ecconimicly sustainable ways to make alcohol, corn is not one of them.

quote:Originally posted by deus-redux:

So the petroleum companies use corn ethanol to drive up the price of corn, and therefore the price of corn ethanal?

So they use a product to increase it's price?

So they use it so they can pay more?

Nice fucking logic.

-deus-

You really are one stupid fucker.

I support everything Argon Plasma has stated and as such I will leave this horribly inaccurate thread after rattling off these few points.

Ethanol in gas in a short-sighted way is great for the environment. However, the pollution as a result of cultivating corn, distilling, refinement, and shipping are greater than the benefits of its cleaner burn. Furthermore, it is impractical to use corn ethanol as anything more than a unnecessary additive as we could not feasibly produce the corn needed to allow for standard use of high-ethanol fuels. The point Argon made about the reduced gas mileage as a result of ethanol is completely correct. In fact, there are instances that increased ethanol causes the fuel to burn less completely causing more CO and SO2 to be released. This fact is exacerbated by the fact that less refined fuels are cut in when ethanol is used to cut costs.

Ethanol is like Communism in the respect that it looks good on paper yet it cannot be implemented effectively. [oh yes, I just used passive comparisons to associate Ethanol with Communism.]

quote:Originally posted by Mr. McBee III:

Ethanol is like Communism in the respect that it looks good on paper yet it cannot be implemented effectively. [oh yes, I just used passive comparisons to associate Ethanol with Communism.]

Those commies seem to drink alot of vodka.

quote:Originally posted by Pirate Hippie:

Also, ethanol and gasoline are "technically" the same. It doesn't make your car run any different. It's eco-friendly.

Edit: And by "technically" the same, you know what I mean...

I hope that by "technically" you mean "not".

Wow, you're incredibly stupid.

I think EVERYONE HERE IS MISSING THE POINT, inlcuding the OP, if its your moms car, who the fuck gives a shit?

Ethanol is a shitload cheaper than regular gas (in South America anyways). If the U.S. stopped their fucking corrupt oil practices and let people persue alternative fuels (which the bastards will never allow us to), we could reduce our dependancy on oil. I think you can make it by fermenting corn or something. I saw it on 20/20 or something a long while ago.

Anybody who thinks that we can just substitute petrol for corn and let the good times roll on is horribly ignorant (http://tinyurl.com/s9dxj).

Ethanol dissolves water into gasoline so ice doesn't form.

quote:Originally posted by valo567:

Ethanol is a shitload cheaper than regular gas (in South America anyways). If the U.S. stopped their fucking corrupt oil practices and let people persue alternative fuels (which the bastards will never allow us to), we could reduce our dependancy on oil.

Exsplain this coruption.

Ethanol is cheaper in South America because of sugar cane and the fact that they pay world prices for oil. North America has some of the cheapest gas of anywhere besided the middle east and socialist places that subsidise it. It is a place with production and refining capacity so that really help keeps the prices down.

quote:Originally posted by Eat A Queer Fetus For Jesus:

Ethanol dissolves water into gasoline so ice doesn't form.

Explain.

There shouldn't be any goddamn water in gas. What about the other ~40-49 states that don't mandate ethanol in gas? I guess our fuel tanks are just freezing to hell because our legislators didn't mandate bullshit gas for us.

I think you're just an idiot.



[This message has been edited by buttthrax (edited 03-28-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

Exsplain this coruption.

Ethanol is cheaper in South America because of sugar cane and the fact that they pay world prices for oil. North America has some of the cheapest gas of anywhere besided the middle east and socialist places that subsidise it. It is a place with production and refining capacity so that really help keeps the prices down.

Good point. All things considered the South Americans getting ethanol probably pay the same amount for fuel as Americans do.

//A small piece out of one of my environmental ethics papers//

A study done by Popular Mechanics magazine to test the cost efficiency of alternative fuels showed that driving on an 85/15 ethanol to gasonline mix would cost roughly the same price per gallon, but would get only half the gas mileage compared to a car ran on gasoline. Also, in the production of ethanol itself, traditional fossil fuels are used up for the machinery, transportation of materials, etc.

http://media.popularmechanics.com/documents/Fuel_of_the_Future-e852.pdf



In National Geographic's article by Kelly Hearn, the contemporary argument that switching to ethanol as an alternative fuel is brought into question by environmentalists. The debate is centered around sensitive areas in Brazil, such as the Amazon and Cerrado, where it is feared that expanded production of ethanol will lead to destructive reprecussions for the environment, a proposed "eco-disaster." This foreseen problem raises the question of whether or not it is worth the destruction of localized ecosystems and water supplies to create a broadly applicable, new energy resource, which could eventually replace oil for specific uses.

Ethanol is most popularly produced through the fermentation of sugarcane, which requires a considerable amount of land to harvest. Environmentalists in Brazil are worried that since sugarcane is not well suited for production near the rain forest, land now used for soybean and cattle farming will be displaced, only to be moved deeper into the Amazon and Cerrado. The Cerrado region is one of the richest and most biodiverse savannas in South America and already over half of its area has been destroyed by farming and algriculture.

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

driving on an 85/15 ethanol to gasonline mix would cost roughly the same price per gallon, but would get only half the gas mileage compared to a car ran on gasoline.

way to fucking read:

it clearly states 15% less mileage but cleaner emmisions. you are comparing volume to distance, which is a fucking stupid way of doing it, especially since you are comparing gasses, liquids and electricity.

also, brazil makes it for about a buck a gallon, not the imaginary quoted figure by the article.



it's just psuedo-science bullshit. if you reference that you deserve to fail.

quote:Originally posted by buttthrax:

There shouldn't be any goddamn water in gas. What about the other ~40-49 states that don't mandate ethanol in gas? I guess our fuel tanks are just freezing to hell because our legislators didn't mandate bullshit gas for us.



There shouldn't be but sometimes there is. That's why they sell little bottles of ethanol at the gas station for winter. FYI they put a bittering agent in it for all you hobos and indians.

[This message has been edited by MasterPython (edited 03-30-2007).]

hey buddy most if not all gas refinaries use about 10% ethonol because they get a tax write off for it. thank you US government for giving back big oil a couple of bucks.

lol troll

too bad he was scared off.

hey buddy most if not all gas refinaries use about 10% ethonol because they get a tax write off for it. thank you US government for giving back big oil a couple of bucks.


Big oil reports 8-10% profit margins.

We've been using 10% ethanol for a while in Hawaii and it works fine.

First off, they've been putting 10% ethanol in gasoline for ages. Why? Because it's a bitch adding other chemicals to boost octane ratings, and ethanol is a cheap and effective way to do it.

E85. A surprising number of the vehicles sold in the past 2 years are capable of using E85. Why does no one know this? No one cares because you can't buy the damn stuff. The gas stations are owned by the oil companies, and the oil companies have a long history of killing the competition, sometimes literally.

Why is ethanol so cheap in Brazil? Because they can grow shitloads of sugarcane, and we can't. If we ever crack the trick with high efficiency cellulose decomp enzymes, we'll be seeing ethanol dirt cheap too.

Less fuel efficiency? ethanol has about 90% the energy of gas. That means that in 10% ethanol gas, you're losing 1% efficiency, which costs you about 2 cents a gallon. Consider that the chemicals they have to add to raise octane cost more than that, and you're coming out ahead.

No matter what, gas prices will go up, and ethanol prices will go down as we learn to make it more efficiently. That 10% energy difference won't mean shit when you're paying half of what you would for gas.

I shat myself to sleep after reading this.

You losers are missing the point. I want to buy pure, unadulterated gasoline, free of unwanted pollutants, and as an American citizen, I have that right. I don't want all these damn chemicals in my gas. It's a simple question of getting what you pay for.

rofl, pure unadultered gasoline.

Brazil runs their entire economy on the stuff...

and yet it's "hurting your rights as an American"?

Pffft, get real, ethanol is a better fuel to use than petrol, although it should by no means be viewed as an ecologically friendly fuel for the future... you have to grow the cane to start with, remember...

That's why switchgrass is so exciting. More biomass/acre and grows in most climates. Only problem being that it will still take up land mass. Just less than cane or corn.

That's why switchgrass is so exciting. More biomass/acre and grows in most climates. Only problem being that it will still take up land mass. Just less than cane or corn.

So outsource.

Think of the sheer number of jobs we could provide to the third world if we grew it there.

We give them a reasonable job, yet it's still relatively cheap by our standards. We solve our energy crisis, they get fuel they don't have to import. The environment benefits.

It really is win-win.:)

The only losers are the oil companies. And unfortunately, a lot of government members have shares in oil. :(

-deus-

Well, I've got no doubt that most oil companies will find a way to adapt. BP did give half a billion dollars to ethanol research after all.

You fucking dumb shit, that ethanol is grown by American farmers, which supports the American economy, not some foreign country whose natural resources only consists of sand and oil. Not only that but it increases the life of your car, cleans out build up in the engine, burns more effecently, and produces a lot less pollution (not that anyone cares but its fun to throw that at liberals' faces.) So STFU, and enjoy your fucking Americanized gasohol.

So outsource.

It'd take a land mass the size of the entire African continent just to grown enough biomass to satisfy current U.S. transportation fuel needs alone, nevermind growth.

And you also have the problem of biofuels being dependent on our fossil-fuel agriculture:

Rising price of growing oil alternatives raises demand for oil (http://tinyurl.com/s9dxj)


The absurdity of turning to our petro-soaked agricultural sector to free us from oil will, I expect, only grow more obvious and glaring in coming years.

First off, they've been putting 10% ethanol in gasoline for ages. Why? Because it's a bitch adding other chemicals to boost octane ratings, and ethanol is a cheap and effective way to do it.

MTBE is still far cheaper. Gas prices have gone WAY up since it was outlawed several years ago, and it wasnt just because of the war.

E85. A surprising number of the vehicles sold in the past 2 years are capable of using E85. Why does no one know this? No one cares because you can't buy the damn stuff. The gas stations are owned by the oil companies, and the oil companies have a long history of killing the competition, sometimes literally.

No one knows because if it isnt marked as "Flex Fuel", you wouldnt. Interestingly enough, my cousin had a FF car from mid 90s, so its been around for quite some time.

Why is ethanol so cheap in Brazil? Because they can grow shitloads of sugarcane, and we can't. If we ever crack the trick with high efficiency cellulose decomp enzymes, we'll be seeing ethanol dirt cheap too.

Less fuel efficiency? ethanol has about 90% the energy of gas. That means that in 10% ethanol gas, you're losing 1% efficiency, which costs you about 2 cents a gallon. Consider that the chemicals they have to add to raise octane cost more than that, and you're coming out ahead.

No, it has 2/3's as much, and since you cant compress it high enough, you still lose energy. Especially when the gasoline is shitty to keep the octane rating the same as it was before they added anything to it.

No matter what, gas prices will go up, and ethanol prices will go down as we learn to make it more efficiently. That 10% energy difference won't mean shit when you're paying half of what you would for gas.

When cellulose ethanol rolls around, I'll support it. The SD4 motor Pontiac put out years ago had a stock 12:1 compression and I bet it would just LOVE ethanol. ;)

You fucking dumb shit, that ethanol is grown by American farmers, which supports the American economy, not some foreign country whose natural resources only consists of sand and oil. Not only that but it increases the life of your car, cleans out build up in the engine, burns more effecently, and produces a lot less pollution (not that anyone cares but its fun to throw that at liberals' faces.) So STFU, and enjoy your fucking Americanized gasohol.

High compression ratios wear down engines much faster than lower compression engines if you were to compare an alcohol engine vs a gasoline engine. It also has to rev higher to get the same amount of power. Those two combined make for short engine lives.

I read the posts on the first page and was too lazy to read everything else.

I think it's funny how he's bitching about paying $2.65 for SUPER Premium... My VW takes super premium as well, and right now I'm paying roughly $3.20 a gallon!!!

It'd take a land mass the size of the entire African continent just to grown enough biomass to satisfy current U.S. transportation fuel needs alone, nevermind growth.

And you also have the problem of biofuels being dependent on our fossil-fuel agriculture:

Rising price of growing oil alternatives raises demand for oil (http://tinyurl.com/s9dxj)

The problem with that? Corn. We've known from the start that corn is a shitty crop to raise. It takes more energy and resources than just about anything else. You've got to spray on tons of fertilizer to make up for it needing so damn much nitrogen.

It's easy to turn corn sugars into ethanol. That's the only reason that that's the way it's being done. It's easy. It's also incredibly stupid and wasteful.

I don't agree with all the statistics listed in that article, and others, given that people are always pushing their own agendas. However, I do agree that the premise of growing corn for fuel is fundamentally flawed, even if there is debate on how flawed.