the number one arguement ive heard against the existence of a god or afterlife is "god wouldnt allow such pain and suffering". that doesnt make any sense to me. what if we chose to come here, knowing that life would suck?

Yeah I don't think Jesus came to save humanity from a shit life, but from hell.

Good point Clif!

We need to understand that the entity who holds the power of death is Satan. We learn this in Hebrews chapter 2, verse 14 (Heb 2:14). How did he get this power? It was handed over to him when Adam and Eve decided to cooperate with him (by disobeying God) in the Garden of Eden. Later, Satan implied that the Earth was his, and Jesus did not contest that fact in Matthew 4:8,9. We also know from 1 John 5:19 that “the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.”

We also know that Satan is constantly looking for someone to hurt or destroy (1 Peter 5:8). From the text, it is obvious that Satan will not only attack “good people” or Christians, but anyone he happens across. For example, is a roaring lion going to make a moral judgment between some gazelles before he decides which one to eat? No, the lion will grab what is closest or “juiciest” at the time.

Job chapters 1 and 2 teach us that Satan can hurt people directly. We also know that there are many wicked people in this world who are willing to follow Satan (by accident or on purpose) and do his will. That is where much of this type of suffering and tragedy come from. Of course, the Bible contains assurance that those who are wicked will pay a permanent penalty for their sins.

If Satan was only empowered by Adam and Eve in original sin, does that mean that they weren't influenced by the serpent in the garden?

Furthermore, giving humans in a finite space with infinite time eternal punishment for a choice is pretty lame. It seems with infinite time there is no doubt they would eventually eat the fruit.

The argument claims that because God is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing and all loving he would not allow natural disasters and other evil which has nothing to do with humans (free will).

quote:Originally posted by mustache rider:

We need to understand that the entity who holds the power of death is Satan.

Gibberish. I suppose next you'll hold Satan responsible for biological diseases.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote: For example, is a roaring lion going to make a moral judgment between some gazelles before he decides which one to eat? No, the lion will grab what is closest or “juiciest” at the time.

And that's Satan at work? No sir. That's a survival mechanism, and a well-honed one at that, if I might say. If God created all creatures including the lion, why didn't he make them herbivores so the "juicy" gazelles never have to fear death or undergo suffering?

quote:

Job chapters 1 and 2 teach us that Satan can hurt people directly. We also know that there are many wicked people in this world who are willing to follow Satan (by accident or on purpose) and do his will.

God is all-powerful. Why didn't he choose to either end or seriously handicap Satan's "power"? That wouldn't necessarily negate free will, because if he was all-knowing, he would have forseen that most people don't need "Satan" to give them a push to do wicked deeds... they're totally capable of being wicked on their own. People could still have a free choice concerning whether or not to believe in Him.

quote:

Of course, the Bible contains assurance that those who are wicked will pay a permanent penalty for their sins.

So ... God created man, made them vulnerable to sin, let "Satan" have full access to their already less-than-perfect good nature in order to trick them, and then punishes those who go astray by burning them in the fiery pits of hell? All the while, knowing full well this would work out this way?

Seems a bit sadistic, doesn't it?

rofl @ "satan"

Satan is in all likelihood, the "God" of the OT, at least from a Gnostic POV. His name merely means "adversary".

That's not an argument I use against God, that's an argument I use against a God who is good by his own moral standards.

I agree with Hare Geist, that's not an argument against the existence of God, so much as an argument against the concept of an all-knowing, benevolent creator.

I'm actually curious, does is it say anywhere in the bible why God couldn't destroy or limit Satan's powers? God was smiting bitches left and right in the OT, so why not Satan? I'd like a real answer, not a rant from one of the drones/trolls that populate this board.

quote:Originally posted by MolecularMollusc:

I agree with Hare Geist, that's not an argument against the existence of God, so much as an argument against the concept of an all-knowing, benevolent creator.

I'm actually curious, does is it say anywhere in the bible why God couldn't destroy or limit Satan's powers? God was smiting bitches left and right in the OT, so why not Satan? I'd like a real answer, not a rant from one of the drones/trolls that populate this board.

Satan was a tool God employed, one of his highest angels.

All the smiting that "God" did was likely early historical accounts of alients/genetically engineered people(the nephilim) and natural disasters (the flood).

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

rofl @ "satan"

Satan is in all likelihood, the "God" of the OT, at least from a Gnostic POV. His name merely means "adversary".

Yes, but our boy the mustache rider seems to imagine "Satan" as a pitchfork-toting, boots-smouldering, evil-deed-pusher who works in the Big Fiery Furnace down under.

It's pretty safe to say that any other POV's are going to fly right over his head. Why I even waste my time and keystrokes on him is a mystery to me.

I'm not joking when I say that Satan is my second favourite OT character, after Job. He's far more interesting than God, who is just this kind of toddler.

It is a weak argument against the existence of God so I don't recommend dwelling on it too much no matter which side you're on.

This is one thing I don't get about the whole thing: Satan rebelled against God, right? So God decided to punish Satan and his minions. Now, many people claim that Satan is always looking for a soul to steal, or someone to suffer, etc. So, why would God give Satan the ability to cause death and suffering upon humans as a PUNISHMENT? If you are Satan, that is not a punishment, that is a blessing.

Secondly, I am confused about the whole Satan rebelling against God thing, particularly the timeline. Did this happen before humans were created? Because that means Satan was already being punished by God when humans were created, and when Adam/Eve sinned that means God decided to go to Satan and give him the the right to make humans suffer. It doesn't seem right.

God: "Hey Satan, long time no see. I know that we had that quarrel way back when but the humans are sinning now and need punishment, so I was wondering: How would you like a promotion? But you still have to stay in hell.. consider it 'probation'"



Otherwise, Satan rebelled after humans were created and had nothing to do with the whole Adam/Eve thing in the Garden of Eden. And furthermore, God created the world in like a week, so if Satan did rebel before humans, then it didn't take much time for Satan to get pissed and rebel... five days isn't long.



This doesn't necessarily negate the existence of a "God" but it certainly is another one of a million holes in the traditional stories.

It fucks over the idea of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent god.

There's no two ways about it. If a god were both evil would never exits. I don't care about this Satan character, either god is omnipotent and can reomve him, or he's not omnibenevolent since he'd rather let suffering exist.

Delusion and lack of evidence aside, though, suffering is compatible with a god which isn't universally kind or isn't omnipotent [then why do we call him a god...?].

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Whose to say what is evil? Perhaps in Gods eyes nothing is good or evil. Things are just a part of the process called life. Life that never ends, just changes.

Consider that pain is just a feeling and we assign the tag of "Suffering" to it because we are so attached to the human body, whereas we may just be soul having a temporary human experience.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Whose to say what is evil? Perhaps in Gods eyes nothing is good or evil. Things are just a part of the process called life. Life that never ends, just changes.

Yes, there are those who propose that solution, such as Spinoza, but I think that this question is posed for a specific sort of theist, the one who does believe in evil and the ten commandments.

quote:whereas we may just be soul having a temporary human experience.

Not much evidence for that.

I thought satan couldnt do anything without gods permission http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

quote:Originally posted by ViVe CUERVO:

I thought satan couldnt do anything without gods permission http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

Is there black and white support for this in the bible?

quote:Originally posted by MolecularMollusc:



I'm actually curious, does is it say anywhere in the bible why God couldn't destroy or limit Satan's powers? God was smiting bitches left and right in the OT, so why not Satan? I'd like a real answer, not a rant from one of the drones/trolls that populate this board.

isnt he supposedly gonna throw him in the lake of fire when the world ends? I cant really give you a answer since I dont believe in "Satan"

quote:Originally posted by Clifford the Big Red Bong:

what if we chose to come here, knowing that life would suck?

thats what Sylvia Browne thinks (I know I know)

But she makes a valid point, what do we gain from complete bliss? When ‘Bad’ things happen to me, and it’s my fault, I learn a lesson and make sure I don’t repeat the same mistake twice “what doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger” right? And to me death is just another stage in my... I can’t think of the right word but you get what im saying

i forgot i made this thread. ill get around to reading the whole thing a little later. but to clear something up, i dont believe in satan or hell.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:



If Satan was only empowered by Adam and Eve in original sin, does that mean that they weren't influenced by the serpent in the garden?

Furthermore, giving humans in a finite space with infinite time eternal punishment for a choice is pretty lame. It seems with infinite time there is no doubt they would eventually eat the fruit.



Adam and Eve saddled mankind with original sin, by disobeying god and eating fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They were so naive before they ate the fruit that they didn't realize that they were naked...Consider this: If they didn't know good from evil or right from wrong until after eating the fruit,how could they understand that it was wrong to disobey and eat of the tree?

Whose to say what is evil? Perhaps in Gods eyes nothing is good or evil. Things are just a part of the process called life. Life that never ends, just changes.

Consider that pain is just a feeling and we assign the tag of "Suffering" to it because we are so attached to the human body, whereas we may just be soul having a temporary human experience.

If god really had no view of good/evil, then why give a book to mankind prescribing a way to live, the ten commandments and how could god justify punishment without their being good/bad deeds?

I'm not saying there can be no god with this view, but simply not the judeo-christian one.

If god really had no view of good/evil, then why give a book to mankind prescribing a way to live, the ten commandments and how could god justify punishment without their being good/bad deeds?

I'm not saying there can be no god with this view, but simply not the judeo-christian one.

Well I'm not talking of the God depicted in the bible, I'm talking about the God I believe in, but as far as the Bible is concerned the advice given imo is a means to happiness. It says that if you want a happy life then avoid actions that bring about undesired consequences.