Firstly, what is with the persistent crap that evolution and creationism are mutually exclusive? Surely it's possible that the god created evolution? ...and taking the bible literally is more ridiculous than I care to mention.

And for that matter, let's take a look at the basic predicates that make up evolution:

1. Organisms more suited to their environ will reproduce better. This is fact.

2. When organisms reproduce, small genetic changes occur. This is fact.

3. A small fraction of these small changes will make the organism more suited to its environ. This is fact.

Similarly, what about the bacteria and virii that have evolved to be immune to antibiotics and such?

In short, I'd like to know what you guys are smoking and whether I can have some please.

I could never get creationists. They're like Dostoevsky's the underground man, smashing his head against a wall and refusing to accept that two plus two equals four.

quote:Originally posted by pianoSpleen:

Surely it's possible that the god created evolution?

Yes, this is one thing that some people don't take into consideration.

Too many people associate God with the Bible and nothing else. You could say the Bible is life and God explained in one particular way, whereas in other religeons he is explained in ways that may make more sense.

I think all religeons hold many great truths, but some are just more suited to others depending on a persons current understandings about life... or their stupidity.

If God crated evolution he sure did a good job making it look a natural process unguided by any sort of intelligence.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

If God crated evolution he sure did a good job making it look a natural process unguided by any sort of intelligence.

You could say he instilled the ability to evolve in the first being, but then that would just make God look like a sadistic bastard playing Dominos with living beings. O.o

I'm fine when religious folk believe that evolution exists, but is a tool of God. But when they start spewing creationist bullshit, I get up in arms.

Lots of Christians believe in Evloution. Lots of moderates anyway.

The reason that so many religious people are creationists, is that once they're intelligent enough to see through one layer of bullshit, they generally keep peeling until all that is left in the end is a crushed up pellet of fantasy.

quote:Originally posted by pianoSpleen:



2. When organisms reproduce, small genetic changes occur. This is fact.



I think its something like 50 mutations happen throughout our life time in our DNA. Most of the time in the "junk dna" sections. But some times it happens in a different part, which gets passed on through reproduction. 40 mutations for a monkey. I read about that on an article explaining how by calculating the mutations that are needed for the changes you can go backwords and it showed we share a common ancenstor ___ amount of years ago. Matching up pretty much bang on with fossil records, radiometric dating etc.

Well the right mutations have to occur at the right time (DNA replication before meiosis)and the right cell has to penetrate the right egg. So the "50 mutations happen throughout our lifetime" is crap. The only mutations that count are in gametes and protooncogenes/oncogenes/regulatory genes.

Promoting the belief that God "created" the process of evolution adds yet another grappling skyhook and only results in larger, more inauspicious questions to be asked.

I would very much like to hear just how much of his Christianity (assuming he's Christian) is left at this point. You're obviously a semi-logical creature... How much of your faith has not yet been hacked away up to this point?

The problem I find in most logical Christians, is that they lack the ability to let go. I have scores of Christian friends, but I regret to say that the mere concept is a sort of paradox. There are no logical Christians. Just those that can't let go.

You're absolutely right. Jehovah could have created evolution. But what, other than a two thousand year old flawed and problematic tradition, suggests this? Pink unicorns could have created evolution too. Or for that matter evolution could be something that's naturally happened forwards and backwards infinitely throughout time. What security do you find in attaching some God to sound logic? You can't bend a faith to work around what's convenient for your own needs. Sure, interpret the bible however you want... but using that screaming logic you're trying so hard to subdue... think, what evidence is there, that there is any god at all?

Just one more step out of the darkness, and you'll realize that taking the bible as anything more than a collection of literature is more ridiculous than you'll care to mention.

Pick either faith or reason. The two do not mix.

on one hand, evolution does not explain the existance of creationists: natural selection does not seem to be playing any part in this, they're breeding as if they have no deficiency.

on the other hand, creationism does not explain the theory of evolution. who would have wanted to create as obnoxious and creatively thick-skulled a group as the athiests is beyond me.

quote:Originally posted by Totyai:

on one hand, evolution does not explain the existance of creationists: natural selection does not seem to be playing any part in this, they're breeding as if they have no deficiency.

on the other hand, creationism does not explain the theory of evolution. who would have wanted to create as obnoxious and creatively thick-skulled a group as the athiests is beyond me.

You're an idiot, on both accounts.

With technology, natural selection has been largely weeded out of our lives. Not to mention, the delusion of all actions in one's life being carried out to serve some divine purpose... no matter how shitty ones life is or isn't... has the potential to make one more psychologically healthy than those weakest atheists, who feel anxious and afraid that they have no meaning in this world. Not to mention that natural selection would take much longer than the 6000 years homo sapiens have had any sort of religious beliefs in this world.

And on the other hand, even the atheist can see that in the eyes of a Christian, we were created in order to serve some "master plan" that's all going to make sense one day... in accords to God's will. We've got the shitty end of the bargain... but it's all for a reason.

And free choice could be argued in either situation. Think what you're saying before you go off calling any body's views "thick-skulled".

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

Well the right mutations have to occur at the right time (DNA replication before meiosis)and the right cell has to penetrate the right egg. So the "50 mutations happen throughout our lifetime" is crap. The only mutations that count are in gametes and protooncogenes/oncogenes/regulatory genes.

Its actually 75 mutations occuring in each haploid genome per generation. Thats statments not "crap"

In 1 million years, 8.75 million mutations will build up in the human/chimp genome.

We know there are 40 million mutations seperating humans and chimps. So that tells us in 4.57 million years we shared a common ancenstor. Pretty close estimate just from that, with further studies from different sources we think the time period was 5-6 million.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCgt3qb-Kb0 the papers are out there i just dont feel like finding them again, this guy sums it up though.