There is no mention of Bacteria or viruses. Surely god didn't forget to mention the most populous kingdom/species in his true word?

First off, God didn't write the Bible. People did.

Secondly, the Bible does mention plagues and pestilence. There's your bacterium.

coz the old farts that wrote the bible hundreds of years ago didn't know what bacteria was and so couldn't make up some bullshit about it

quote:Originally posted by ZOMGflamemealready:

coz the 'young entrepeneurs' that wrote the bible hundreds of years ago didn't know what bacteria was and so couldn't make up some bullshit about it

Fixed for realism.

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

There is no mention of Bacteria or viruses. Surely god didn't forget to mention the most populous kingdom/species in his true word?

Why the hell would they need to mention it in the first place? your a dumbfuck!

Ok, one of the cores of the creationist arguments is the fact that bible is scientifically accurate and the world was created in 7 days. When was bacteria created? What day?

Pestilence is the result of bacteria, not bacteria itself. There is a difference and obviously it doesn't show any knowledge of the existence of prokaryotes.

I think bacteria is as much if not more of a problem than dinosaurs to the bible.

Also If you don't know the difference between "Your" and "You're" you don't get to call people dumbfucks.

Does the Bible mention dinosaurs? Yes. First, it discusses them in the same books, chapters, and verses that speak of bacteria, kangaroos, and anteaters. Where is that?! In Exodus 20:11, the Bible states: "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day." In Genesis 1:20-27, we learn that God made all living creatures on days five and six of the creation week. While these verses do not mention dinosaurs (or bacteria, kangaroos, and anteaters) by name, it is clear that God made every type of creature during the six days of creation. Genesis 2:1 informs us that at the end of day six, God was finished with His creation. If God created everything in six days, and did not create anything else after those six days, then dinosaurs must have been a part of that six-day creation.

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

Ok, one of the cores of the creationist arguments is the fact that bible is scientifically accurate and the world was created in 7 days. When was bacteria created? What day?

Pestilence is the result of bacteria, not bacteria itself. There is a difference and obviously it doesn't show any knowledge of the existence of prokaryotes.

I think bacteria is as much if not more of a problem than dinosaurs to the bible.

Also If you don't know the difference between "Your" and "You're" you don't get to call people dumbfucks.

Hi Lamabot,

How long after the 7th day of the creation week was the Fall?

Death, disease and destruction are all a result of the Fall.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

God Bless,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

Ok, one of the cores of the creationist arguments is the fact that bible is scientifically accurate and the world was created in 7 days. When was bacteria created? What day?

Pestilence is the result of bacteria, not bacteria itself. There is a difference and obviously it doesn't show any knowledge of the existence of prokaryotes.

I think bacteria is as much if not more of a problem than dinosaurs to the bible.

Also If you don't know the difference between "Your" and "You're" you don't get to call people dumbfucks.



hey fucktard one comment above yours!

If you believe that bacterium exists, YOU ARE GOING TO BE SO LEFT BEHIND!!! But seriously, only idiots believe that the Bible is literally true.

We already know that there are a THOUSAND problems with the bible.

quote:Originally posted by mustache rider:

Does the Bible mention dinosaurs? Yes. First, it discusses them in the same books, chapters, and verses that speak of bacteria, kangaroos, and anteaters. Where is that?! In Exodus 20:11, the Bible states: "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day." In Genesis 1:20-27, we learn that God made all living creatures on days five and six of the creation week. While these verses do not mention dinosaurs (or bacteria, kangaroos, and anteaters) by name, it is clear that God made every type of creature during the six days of creation. Genesis 2:1 informs us that at the end of day six, God was finished with His creation. If God created everything in six days, and did not create anything else after those six days, then dinosaurs must have been a part of that six-day creation.

so you really believe that dinosaurs lived with people and were made with in six days? damn you're stupid

fuck you all! there is no importance to bacteria! its not a book about "did you know facts" you fucking morons! the bible was written by man not God! its mans interpertation of God!

ps. look at my other comment!

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Hi Lamabot,

How long after the 7th day of the creation week was the Fall?

Death, disease and destruction are all a result of the Fall.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

God Bless,

johnny



No one said anything about death and destruction. Bacteria are...bacteria. Cyanobacteria reduce CO2 in the atmosphere, other bacteria do everything from making cheese and yogurt to cleaning up environmentally hazardous waste.

Nowhere in the bible did "god" create anything that could possibly be considered bacteria, find me an exact quote please.

quote: Originally posted by Masta Thief:



fuck you all!

Calling people dumbfucks, fucking morons and having to beg these same people to regard your idiotic comments when they ignore you because you act like a child ... doesn't that shed some light on why people rarely bother to engage in dialogue with you?

Does it even matter to you that hardly anyone here (including the genuine Christians) takes you seriously?

The exception, of course, is the other half of your "dynamic duo", mustache rider. But he's just a troll, so that really doesn't count.

I just had a thought -

If we had to pick a day that bacteria/microbes were brought into creation, it would have to have been the 3rd day or earlier, when first lifeforms came into being. (Trees/plants)

My reasoning is that almost all 'higher' forms of life have some type of symbiotic relationship with bacteria. (Think of whats in our gut for a moment, as an example.)

To sugest that these lifeforms were created without their bacterial buddies to aid them would suggest at some type of evolution - And we cant have THAT in a seven day creation senario.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



hey fucktard one comment above yours!

Why would it be mentioned? Well...I don't know...Why mention the most populous, the most advantageous and the most common type of organism? Why reveal the primary organism that recycles all organic matter? It is radically different from any other organism, it has its own taxonomic domain. This bacteria is responsible for all rotting. I'd think that if the bible was the inspired word of god, he'd mention the most important type of organism.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

there is no importance to bacteria!

I cannot begin to describe how stupid this statement is. I mean a child who took middle school science would look at you and say "What a retard..."

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Hi Lamabot,

How long after the 7th day of the creation week was the Fall?

Death, disease and destruction are all a result of the Fall.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

God Bless,

johnny





d00d:

Bacteria aren't JUST for disease and such. Their main function in nature is to act as decomposers to give the plants (producers) fresh food in the form of soil. Also, did you know that the human body contains HELPFUL bacteria that help us digest food? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

[This message has been edited by AEnemia (edited 03-26-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

mustache rider. But he's just a troll, so that really doesn't count.

I am no troll, the Bible speaks of this happening.

And in the eyes of the non-believers your acts shall be nothing but a vexation, for the blood of a bitch flows through them.

quote:Originally posted by mustache rider:

I am no troll, the Bible speaks of this happening.

And in the eyes of the non-believers your acts shall be nothing but a vexation, for the blood of a bitch flows through them.

you gave no evidence of dinosaurs in the bible you fucktard.

"He created all animals on the 6th day".

oh wow.. that just means EVERYTHING, doesn't include dinosaurs as evidence. Unless there is a description about it, it didn't happen.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Why the hell would they need to mention it in the first place? your a dumbfuck!



You're*

quote:Originally posted by mustache rider:

I am no troll, the Bible speaks of this happening.

Speaks of what happening? You make not one iota of sense. No one is saying here that the Bible didn't recognize that there would be skeptics, certainly not me.

Aren't you just coming to your buddy Masta Thief's aid because he acted like an angry child and I scolded him for it?

You two are as thick as thieves!

i was coming to my own defense, you called me a troll and i am not one.

the bible speaks of people doing the work of the lord and of non-believers dismissing what they say. in this case casting me aside as a troll.

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:

you gave no evidence of dinosaurs in the bible you fucktard.

"He created all animals on the 6th day".

oh wow.. that just means EVERYTHING, doesn't include dinosaurs as evidence. Unless there is a description about it, it didn't happen.

yeah that does mean EVERYTHING, you jackass. notice the word 'all' there? 'all animals' that means EVERYTHING.

the bible doesn't go into detail to list every singe organism there is on the face of this planet, they keep it concise. there's no reason to list everything. idiot



[This message has been edited by mustache rider (edited 03-26-2007).]

I hate to take one of mustache riders points and approve of it, but he does have a point when he mentioned that there are a fuckload of animals not mentioned in the bible.

It pains me to admit it, but I think that's a pretty good point, just because something wasn't mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean it wasn't there. Or else could you cast doubt on the existence of badgers? Or blue tits?

I really hope those animals aren't mentioned in the bible http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Still I can understand what you're saying that they aren't mentioned as a group explicitly. If you won't accept mention of all the creatures being made, then I can think of nothing else.

quote:Originally posted by mustache rider:

yeah that does mean EVERYTHING, you jackass. notice the word 'all' there? 'all animals' that means EVERYTHING.

the bible doesn't go into detail to list every singe organism there is on the face of this planet, they keep it concise. there's no reason to list everything. idiot







Oh.. i forgot.. the BIBLE IS PROVEN TO BE ACCURATE.

silly me... regardless of what the bible says, "he made all the animals." That doesn't prove man froliced with the dinosaurs you dumbfuck. Any book could say that, doesn't necessarily make it true. Had the bible actually mentioned dinosaurs, then we could say "Well.. this book was written this long ago so let's examine the evidence."

The fact that it says "every" animal doesn't include dinosaurs if God didn't make the animals anyway.

They didnt "mention" the diseases alot just how not to get them like not fornicating.

quote:Originally posted by Lamabot:

No one said anything about death and destruction. Bacteria are...bacteria. Cyanobacteria reduce CO2 in the atmosphere, other bacteria do everything from making cheese and yogurt to cleaning up environmentally hazardous waste.

Nowhere in the bible did "god" create anything that could possibly be considered bacteria, find me an exact quote please.

Hi Lamabot,

Ok, so i guess i misunderstood your question a bit. I was looking at bacteria as the " the primary organism that recycles all organic matter...responsible for all rotting." Which is why i mentioned 'how much time was between the completion of the creation week and the Fall'. So, originally my thought reguarding your post was that bacteria must have been created during the creation week, but may have been in active until the Fall... i think, at least so far, that this might be the case. Even if they are "in charge of" cleaning and rotting, this (at least in my mind) would still be a result of the Fall.

Since you were asking a slightly different question, i took a closer look at the creation account, using Strong's numbers (as i still do not know Hebrew... or any other language besides English-- i point this out because i've never seen this question before..or an answer.. so only consider what i have to say. I could very well be wrong).

Thanks for your question Lamabot, since i've not dealt with this one before, or read anything on it, it's a chance for both of us to possibly learn something together.



This next section is something that i started writing before work this morning:



quote:Before the Fall there would be no need for recycling or rotting. (But i did ask a question, "How long after the 7th day of the creation week was the Fall?")... which leads me to a different word (that i found after your reply)

The Hebrew word is {Strong's # H6635} tsâbâ' or tsebâ'âh

tsaw-baw', tseb-aw-aw'

From H6633; a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship): - appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).

The word is used in Genesis 2:1... I think this word alone implies that the 6th day was not a very long time before the Fall

Ok, to continue...

and that it could imply God's foreknowing the choice Adam and Eve would take.

Anyway, the word for 'hosts' does include all things made that were made.

As far as i can see, the first four days of the creation week do not seem to have any words that have a possibility of including the creation of bacteria.

Day 5.. Starting at Gen 1:20, has a few words that might "fit" your question. (i'm gonna quote the whole day 5. The numbers after the words are the Strong's numbers. I'll bold the ones i'm refering to and then after the quote, i'll just use the number and give the Strong's definition)

quote:Gen 1:20 And God430 said,559 Let the waters4325

bring forth abundantly8317

the moving creature8318

that hath life,5315, 2416

and fowl5775 that may fly5774 above5921 the earth776 in5921 the open6440 firmament7549 of heaven.8064

Gen 1:21 And God430 created1254 (853) great1419 whales,8577 and every3605 living2416 creature5315

that moveth,7430

which834 the waters4325 brought forth abundantly,8317 after their kind,4327 and every3605 winged3671 fowl5775 after his kind:4327 and God430 saw7200 that3588 it was good.2896

Gen 1:22 And God430 blessed1288 them, saying,559 Be fruitful,6509 and multiply,7235 and fill4390 (853) the waters4325 in the seas,3220 and let fowl5775 multiply7235 in the earth.776

Gen 1:23 And the evening6153 and the morning1242 were1961 the fifth2549 day.3117

H8317

shârats

shaw-rats'

A primitive root; to wriggle, that is, (by implication) swarm or abound: - breed (bring forth, increase) abundantly (in abundance), creep, move.

sherets

sheh'-rets

From H8317; a swarm, that is, active mass of minute animals: - creep (-ing thing), move (-ing creature).

However, i might be barking up the wrong tree, since the next word (or words) are:

H5315

nephesh

neh'-fesh

From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

H2416

chay

khah'ee

From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

H7430

râmaś

raw-mas'

A primitive root; properly to glide swiftly, that is, to crawl or move with short steps; by analogy to swarm: - creep, move.



My apologies Lamabot, i'm getting really sloppy. This is tedious.

Do you, or anyone else have a suggestion to make this easier?

The program i'm using, a person can move the cursor over the number, and the definition shows. And a clik gives the actual Strongs listing... if we were in the same room, we could discuss ideas as we go about this... but as it is, i'm mainly just looking at words that i think are interesting, without doing too much thinking on it, or anticipating your response.

If you want to keep going in this manner, i'll try.

But i would be most greatful if someone has an idea or two that might make this more productive and interactive.



Just one more thing though...

As far as bacteria being in a separate taxonomic domain, i thing that might be irrelavant, since:



1. the taxonomic system is a relatively recent way to classify life.

2. it presupposes that it is a better way to classify life than whatever way God uses (or at least, that it is the only way).

3. some of the classificatitions may have been beyond the comprehension of ANE man (such as, bacteria being smaller than they could see)



OK, i hope someone has some ideas.

Later,

johnny

IN REGUARD TO THOSE calling people "dumbasses" and the like... especially the Christians that are doing this, GROW UP!!

What does this accomplish??

And specifically, to the Christians;

LIVE YOUR FAITH!!

God Bless,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

IN REGUARD TO THOSE calling people "dumbasses" and the like... especially the Christians that are doing this, GROW UP!!

What does this accomplish??

And specifically, to the Christians;

LIVE YOUR FAITH!!

God Bless,

johnny

Dont be a stupid atheist piece of shit maybe your little brain cant comprehend that although we are saved we are still human.



[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 03-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:

you gave no evidence of dinosaurs in the bible you fucktard.

doesn't include dinosaurs as evidence. Unless there is a description about it, it didn't happen.

Hi Blades of Hate,

Here is a possible description.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

Job 40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

In the footnotes of my NIV, it says that behemoth could possibly by the hippo or the elephant.... but i dont recall hippos or elephants moving the tail like a cedar.

Also, without looking at it closer (with tedious..errr, i mean Strong's) Job 40:15 says, "which I made with thee".... could that be "on the 6th day"?

God Bless,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Hi Blades of Hate,

Here is a possible description.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

Job 40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

In the footnotes of my NIV, it says that behemoth could possibly by the hippo or the elephant.... but i dont recall hippos or elephants moving the tail like a cedar.

Also, without looking at it closer (with tedious..errr, i mean Strong's) Job 40:15 says, "which I made with thee".... could that be "on the 6th day"?

God Bless,

johnny



OH no we cant use that although it describes a dinosaur perfectly it could be ANY animal.(sarcasm)

[This message has been edited by SAMMY249 (edited 03-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

OH no we cant use that although it describes a dinosaur perfectly it could be ANY animal.(sarcasm)



ya but i think you missed the point a bit.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Dont be a stupid atheist piece of shit maybe your little brain cant comprehend that although we are saved we are still human.





Being saved does not give the right to go on sinning. Yes, sinning will still happen, but are we told to continue to sin or are we told to be like Him?

By the way, i am a Christian.. and i happen to also believe in a young earth... reguardless...

Treat others with respect, friend and "foe" alike.

There may be a purpose for a "Fred Phelps" approach, but most people respond the way they are treated.

God Bless,

johnny

quote:Hi Lamabot,

Ok, so i guess i misunderstood your question a bit. I was looking at bacteria as the " the primary organism that recycles all organic matter...responsible for all rotting." Which is why i mentioned 'how much time was between the completion of the creation week and the Fall'. So, originally my thought reguarding your post was that bacteria must have been created during the creation week, but may have been in active until the Fall... i think, at least so far, that this might be the case. Even if they are "in charge of" cleaning and rotting, this (at least in my mind) would still be a result of the Fall.



Recycling of matter is very important fall or not. There are only two types of organisms that perform this function, fungi (molds etc) and bacteria. The latter is predominant. If none of those existed, before the fall ALL matter that was thrown out (fruits that fell on the ground, trees completing their life cycle) would have been preserved as is. It would take only several generations to deplete the soil without the recycling of nutrients and as far as biology goes it is impossible. In addition i believe adam ate food, and without E. Coli in your digestive system food could not be broken down. E. Coli exits the body through natural processes so it's silly to assume that bacteria was not active before the fall.

quote:

As far as i can see, the first four days of the creation week do not seem to have any words that have a possibility of including the creation of bacteria.

Day 5.. Starting at Gen 1:20, has a few words that might "fit" your question. (i'm gonna quote the whole day 5. The numbers after the words are the Strong's numbers. I'll bold the ones i'm refering to and then after the quote, i'll just use the number and give the Strong's definition)

quote:Gen 1:20 And God430 said,559 Let the waters4325

bring forth abundantly8317

the moving creature8318

that hath life,5315, 2416

and fowl5775 that may fly5774 above5921 the earth776 in5921 the open6440 firmament7549 of heaven.8064

Gen 1:21 And God430 created1254 (853) great1419 whales,8577 and every3605 living2416 creature5315

that moveth,7430

which834 the waters4325 brought forth abundantly,8317 after their kind,4327 and every3605 winged3671 fowl5775 after his kind:4327 and God430 saw7200 that3588 it was good.2896

Gen 1:22 And God430 blessed1288 them, saying,559 Be fruitful,6509 and multiply,7235 and fill4390 (853) the waters4325 in the seas,3220 and let fowl5775 multiply7235 in the earth.776

Gen 1:23 And the evening6153 and the morning1242 were1961 the fifth2549 day.3117

H8317

shârats

shaw-rats'

A primitive root; to wriggle, that is, (by implication) swarm or abound: - breed (bring forth, increase) abundantly (in abundance), creep, move.

sherets

sheh'-rets

From H8317; a swarm, that is, active mass of minute animals: - creep (-ing thing), move (-ing creature).

However, i might be barking up the wrong tree, since the next word (or words) are:

H5315

nephesh

neh'-fesh

From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

H2416

chay

khah'ee

From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

H7430

râmaś

raw-mas'

A primitive root; properly to glide swiftly, that is, to crawl or move with short steps; by analogy to swarm: - creep, move.



My apologies Lamabot, i'm getting really sloppy. This is tedious.

Do you, or anyone else have a suggestion to make this easier?

The program i'm using, a person can move the cursor over the number, and the definition shows. And a clik gives the actual Strongs listing... if we were in the same room, we could discuss ideas as we go about this... but as it is, i'm mainly just looking at words that i think are interesting, without doing too much thinking on it, or anticipating your response.

If you want to keep going in this manner, i'll try.

But i would be most greatful if someone has an idea or two that might make this more productive and interactive.



The trick is that is says every creature that moves. Bacteria do not move (some may but there is at least one specie that doesn't) they rely on diffusion and natural modes of transportation such as water currents, air currents and other animals to spread apart, once in a suitable habitat they create their little colony. So AFAIK every creature that moves cannot include bacteria because, simply, bacteria is not a creature that moves.

quote:

Just one more thing though...

As far as bacteria being in a separate taxonomic domain, i thing that might be irrelavant, since:

1. the taxonomic system is a relatively recent way to classify life.

2. it presupposes that it is a better way to classify life than whatever way God uses (or at least, that it is the only way).

3. some of the classificatitions may have been beyond the comprehension of ANE man (such as, bacteria being smaller than they could see)



The taxonomy of bacteria has nothing to do with how small it is. The kingdoms are separated by cellular type and modes of nutrition. Fungi are detritivores, plants are photoautotrophs, animals are digestive heterotrophs. This is a VERY significant difference that allows these to fill biological and ecological niches and allow for the recycling of matter. In addition the domain (which comes before the kingdom) prokarya makes them radically different. Without membrane bound organelles (except ribosomes) prokaryotic bacteria are completely different from all other eukaryotic cells. Actually this is a major point of evolutionists, if you want to hear more about it read up on the Endosymbiotic Theory.



[This message has been edited by Lamabot (edited 03-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Being saved does not give the right to go on sinning. Yes, sinning will still happen, but are we told to continue to sin or are we told to be like Him?

By the way, i am a Christian.. and i happen to also believe in a young earth... reguardless...

Treat others with respect, friend and "foe" alike.

There may be a purpose for a "Fred Phelps" approach, but most people respond the way they are treated.

God Bless,

johnny



Sorry for the misunderstanding.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Hi Blades of Hate,

Here is a possible description.

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

Job 40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

In the footnotes of my NIV, it says that behemoth could possibly by the hippo or the elephant.... but i dont recall hippos or elephants moving the tail like a cedar.

Also, without looking at it closer (with tedious..errr, i mean Strong's) Job 40:15 says, "which I made with thee".... could that be "on the 6th day"?

God Bless,

johnny



That just doesn't cut it. That is not an "EXACT" description of a dinosaur.. nor is there any talk of dinosaurs (i would assume to be a prevalent species) in ancient texts prior to or surrounding the bible era.

Hi again Lamabot,

My wife just got home from work so i'm just gonna respond to this..

quote:Recycling of matter is very important fall or not.

That is a good point, however i'm looking at it (pre-Fall v. post) as a short time (this is my speculation... by short time, i'm meaning less than a year and possibily much shorter... like i said, my speculation).

Also, as a possible clue, i'm considering the length of life of the people between the Fall and the Flood.... so, pre-Fall, the bacteria might have been inactive.. dormant maybe. Perhaps not much bacterial work needed before the Fall... even in digestion.

(LOL, it just dawned on me, that OEC would not have this problem... oh well).



I realize that many people think that Creationist (esp. YEC) do not believe in any form of evolution. Some dont. I do. The generic (and wrong) term that i believe in, is micro. (just trying to be concise... and this explaination is not for your benefit, but for the benefit of certain others).

I was going to explain why i put that explaintion in here, but for the sake of those particular others, i'm going to leave it stand for now... maybe something will click.

quote:There are only two types of organisms that perform this function, fungi (molds etc) and bacteria. The latter is predominant. If none of those existed, before the fall ALL matter that was thrown out (fruits that fell on the ground, trees completing their life cycle) would have been preserved as is.

For a short time pre-fall, this is not a problem... grass life maybe, but not trees. And the shorter the time, the less problem.

I once ate almost a pound of cookie dough... couldnt crap for a week. When it came out, it was like concrete... oh, maybe too much info?

Anyway, my point is that the shorter the time, the less problem this would be (in terms of digestion). OR, in terms of OEC, the bacteria were just part of a creation that God declared good.

It's just that, personally, i've always thought of pre-Fall as being a day or two... i'm not sure if i ever had a particular reason for that thought, but since it's mine, that's the point i'm trying to defend.. fair enough?

quote:It would take only several generations to deplete the soil without the recycling of nutrients and as far as biology goes it is impossible. In addition i believe adam ate food, and without E. Coli in your digestive system food could not be broken down. E. Coli exits the body through natural processes so it's silly to assume that bacteria was not active before the fall.

Since i've already been graphic enough, let's see if we can work from here.

God Bless,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:

That just doesn't cut it. That is not an "EXACT" description of a dinosaur.. nor is there any talk of dinosaurs (i would assume to be a prevalent species) in ancient texts prior to or surrounding the bible era.



Hi Blades,

Ok, last one for right now. My wife gets some time too.

How sure are you that that is not an exact description of a dino?

The word 'dinosaur' was coined in what, the 17th or 18th century?

But dragons have been describe long before... in many cultures and many quite similar.

There have even been clay figurines and depictions on pottery that resemble creatures that we call dinosaurs.

Without getting too off thread, how is it that a myth or legend can come into being from ancient people just finding bones (fossils) that resemble something very similar to the forms that you see in museums that are labeled 'dinos'?

God Bless,

johnny

The mythological dragons looked nothing like dinosaurs.

Flying dinosaurs? Archeopterix is hardly a dragon

Breathing fire? please...

Thousand years old each?

Strange affinity for gold?

Incredible intelligence?

All that totally describes dinosaurs

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

IN REGUARD TO THOSE calling people "dumbasses" and the like... especially the Christians that are doing this, GROW UP!!

What does this accomplish??

And specifically, to the Christians;

LIVE YOUR FAITH!!

God Bless,

johnny

You are a breath of fresh air, johnny http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Hey! I trudged through the Book of Micah.

7:7-7:16 was kind of difficult. The whole "scorn of nations" there at the end ... Very macabre.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

You are a breath of fresh air, johnny http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Hey! I trudged through the Book of Micah.

7:7-7:16 was kind of difficult. The whole "scorn of nations" there at the end ... Very macabre.

i agree, Johnny should be the example which everyone sets themselves for debates.

*its too bad he's on the wrong side =P

Hi Lamabot,

I got side tracked, and forgot about this one.

QUOTE Originally posted by Lamabot:

The mythological dragons looked nothing like dinosaurs.

Flying dinosaurs? Archeopterix is hardly a dragon

Archaeopteryx was a bird, not a dinosaur, so i wouldnt consider it as something that would have been called a dragon.

Breathing fire? please...

Given the bombadier beetle, i dont think it is an impossibility (although, it hardly matters one way or the other, since i had mentioned clay figurines and paintings on pottery that pre-date the modern natural history museums depiction of dinosaurs.. and since clay pots and figurines dont actually breath fire, any representation of the fire could be an embelishment... yes, i realize that i'm bordering on contradicting myself, since one of the creatures in God's Word had firey breath).

Thousand years old each?

Strange affinity for gold?

Incredible intelligence?

I had said, "There have even been clay figurines and depictions on pottery that resemble creatures that we call dinosaurs."

I was speaking of how the figures and pictures looked, not how dragons were described orally or in written form.

Although.... i think it would be impossible to know if they liked gold (shiny stuff.. like crows do); or how long they lived; or how smart they were... so this set, however improbable, is still possible.

All that totally describes dinosaurs

Do i detect a note of sarcasm here?

It's kinda funny actually, since modern depictions of dinosaurs are just a best guess, since, according to those that do not think that dinos and man existed at the same time, it could not be exact.

johnny

"Dragons" came from cave bear skeletons. Cave bears actually encountered primitive man, unlike dinosaurs. Medieval maps that said "Here be dragons", marked the locations of caves that held cave bear skeletons. Cave bears were large fearsome animals, and they lived from asia throughout europe. The evidence points to humans killing them to extinction.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

i had mentioned clay figurines and paintings on pottery that pre-date the modern natural history museums depiction of dinosaurs..

Show me.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Show me.

Hi Vj,

i had a pretty long post with several links. Most were very inconclusive... other than the fact that they were of pre-modern museum period, that is, pre-1800's... when the modern understanding of dinosaurs started with the iguanadon. One particular link was of something pretty contravertial.

I never came across the particular ones i was looking for.. which happened to be mostly of figuines and petroglyphs.



Having 7 or 8 windows open, going back and forth looking and reading links, and then pasting some of them with a comment, i accidently hit the back button on the totse window.

I'm gonna have to call it quits for tonight.

Tomorrow or Thursday i'll try to retrace my steps and see if i can come up with some of the ones i lost tonight along with the ones i was looking for.

For the record, here is what i'm gonna try to establish... that prior to the 1800's there were artifacts that depict dragons in a way that resemble the way that modern art shows dinosaurs.. at least, that is what i'm understanding your "show me" to mean.

The significance of showing that, would lead to the possibility that humans and dinosaurs existed at the same time, since the ancients had not been able to look at a dinosaur book or put the bones together to come to their graphic representations.

I realise that it is in no way conclusive, because they could very well have just looked at lizards and imagined something bigger (kinda like the "iguanadon" dude.

Although it was interesting, i will not include Athanasius Kircher (1600's), since it would seem that his work was much like the guys of the 1800's.

For right now, here is one link that i found pretty interesting (this was the one that was contraversial).

Just a warning first... disreguard any reference to millions of years, since we know that the universe and earth has only been around for about 6,000 years http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

http://www.crystalinks.com/icastones.html

If these stones were not carved in recent years, then the couple with the dinosaurs are very intrigueing (granted, they werent dragons)

Good night,

johnny

I almost thought you had a point there Johnny

http ://www.tal korigins.o rg/indexcc/CH/CH710_1.html (http: //www.talk origins.or g/indexcc/ CH/CH710_1 .html)

Edit: Also please save yourself the embarrassment and don't post links to the Palaxau River fossils

[This message has been edited by Lamabot (edited 04-04-2007).]

Would it be enough to say that the creation of things not explicitly mentioned is implicit in phrases like "the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them"? Or, in the case of bacteria existing as symbiotes, in the passages where their hosts (plants, animals) are created?

Over the years people have been able to think up stacks of things the Bible doesn't account for; it's simply not possible to expect one book to cover in detail everything the human mind could possibly conceive. The worldview is larger and more complex than could possibly be contained in a single text, and is getting larger and more complex all the time. This is why scripture, especially one frozen in stasis for over a thousand years' worth of human growth and development, can never be an absolute *literal* framework for greater civilisation.
[Whoops, tangent...]

If the power of prayer is so strong why doesn't God ever heal people who have lost limbs? EVER?

If the power of prayer is so strong why doesn't God ever heal people who have lost limbs? EVER?

Amen to that.