please take this serious! im not being a troll here!

like i said before its called general and special relitivity! no im not one of those people who think religion and science or evolution mix! Sr and Gr can explain how God created the Universe way better than realism!!! a lot! anyways it more falls under time and time travel! if God was going to create the universe in 6 days he had to have done some time warping! im not saying he prepared it for millions of years for us, not at all! im saying that for a star he would speed up the time in which it ages in a time warp kinda way! the earth as well!

Fossils and dinasaurs! well at first i thought carbon dating and radio metric dating were differ! but this is not the case it seems it is actually better for me and my theory i guess! if God actually was the creator and the Bible is corect then it definalty explains how fossils could seem so old! its called the Flood! IF there actually was a flood then the immense pressure would have turned normal human bones to coal or diamonds something of the like but dinnasuor bones(this believe it or not is actually scientific so dont disregard it please) would have been changed through the immense pressure and the soaking of water, which some how would make it seem older than it really is when doing carbon dating (which is basicly like adding three unkown variables but dont argue this)!



For the universe being as big as it is i have a few thoughts about it! but not like the others! God never said he didnt create other Earths! the fact that inter-gallactic space travel is immposible with out time warp(do to our aging), could mean that we are not suppose to know whats out there! but thats just a thought dont argue this please. Another could be God dont want us escaping, seems perfectly reasonable if your were God (in the way he thinks) you wouldnt want us escaping either, he gave us the ability to learn and devolop new technologys and new that eventually we would be able to get out of the atmosphere!

Also i think its funny how if you look back through history you can see Gods plan of sorts! im not well devoloped on this issue, its really hard to explain! but im pretty sure you can find something about it on the internet. anyways when this has been brought up on disscusions it is said it is only mere coincidence, but in my mind thats a huge fucking coincidence!



Science you really cant pay much attention to these days seeing as how they really are bieng biased and going unquestioned which aint scientific at all! Real scientists should question, science is not a census! But with all that being said you cannot completely disregard it, question and try to find a flaw yourself! some people really dont have the mental compacity to do this but still try!



ps. Chrisianity in my mind makes more sense than any other religion. If religion is right I'd say that its either Christianity, Judaism, or Islam thats correct!

pss. Mustache Rider and Sammy and all you other Christians this is a good arguement you can use when debating other people! all thought up by me and my brilliance lol(please dont discredit this cause that!) http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Real scientists should question, science is not a census!

pss. Mustache Rider and Sammy and all you other Christians this is a good arguement you can use when debating other people! all thought up by me and my brilliance lol(please dont discredit this cause that!) http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Since you used the word "census" i can tell you were trying to be serious but just wait a little for others to start picking it apart.

quote:Originally posted by SAMMY249:

Since you used the word "census" i can tell you were trying to be serious but just wait a little for others to start picking it apart.

Thanks!

Ya they probably will but owell its hard to convince people like that!

*sigh*

where to begin. I'll try not to be mean since you sounded sincere.



quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

please take this serious! im not being a troll here!

like i said before its called general and special relitivity! no im not one of those people who think religion and science or evolution mix! Sr and Gr can explain how God created the Universe way better than realism!!! a lot! anyways it more falls under time and time travel! if God was going to create the universe in 6 days he had to have done some time warping! im not saying he prepared it for millions of years for us, not at all! im saying that for a star he would speed up the time in which it ages in a time warp kinda way! the earth as well!



what is Sr and Gr?

quote:

Fossils and dinasaurs! well at first i thought carbon dating and radio metric dating were differ! but this is not the case it seems it is actually better for me and my theory i guess! if God actually was the creator and the Bible is corect then it definalty explains how fossils could seem so old! its called the Flood! IF there actually was a flood then the immense pressure would have turned normal human bones to coal or diamonds something of the like but dinnasuor bones(this believe it or not is actually scientific so dont disregard it please) would have been changed through the immense pressure and the soaking of water, which some how would make it seem older than it really is when doing carbon dating (which is basicly like adding three unkown variables but dont argue this)!



of course im going to argue this. I do not think that Carbon dating would be affected by "pressure." Face it, the earth isn't 6000 years old and not only do carbon dating and the stars tell us this, common sense does as well. no evidence.

quote:

For the universe being as big as it is i have a few thoughts about it! but not like the others! God never said he didnt create other Earths! the fact that inter-gallactic space travel is immposible with out time warp(do to our aging), could mean that we are not suppose to know whats out there! but thats just a thought dont argue this please. Another could be God dont want us escaping, seems perfectly reasonable if your were God (in the way he thinks) you wouldnt want us escaping either, he gave us the ability to learn and devolop new technologys and new that eventually we would be able to get out of the atmosphere!



God making a cage for us? That sounds like God is some dumb kid with a hamster cage. Nobody knows how exactly large the universe is, but it isn't genius to think of it like a cage. no evidence.

quote:

Also i think its funny how if you look back through history you can see Gods plan of sorts! im not well devoloped on this issue, its really hard to explain! but im pretty sure you can find something about it on the internet. anyways when this has been brought up on disscusions it is said it is only mere coincidence, but in my mind thats a huge fucking coincidence!



read this paragraph. YOU DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING. you can look back through history and "see" god's plan? then.. you say nothing. no evidence.

quote:

Science you really cant pay much attention to these days seeing as how they really are bieng biased and going unquestioned which aint scientific at all! Real scientists should question, science is not a census! But with all that being said you cannot completely disregard it, question and try to find a flaw yourself! some people really dont have the mental compacity to do this but still try!



Do you think scientists just sit around and circle-jerk? When somebody thinks of something new it is put under INTENSE scientific scrutiny by other scientists, otherwise it wouldn't be a theory. no evidence of scientists not checking each others theorums and proofs.

quote:

ps. Chrisianity in my mind makes more sense than any other religion. If religion is right I'd say that its either Christianity, Judaism, or Islam thats correct!



why.

quote:

pss. Mustache Rider and Sammy and all you other Christians this is a good arguement you can use when debating other people! all thought up by me and my brilliance lol(please dont discredit this cause that!) http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

This is not singular argument. instead, its several stupid arguments.

YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE. take each paragraph seperately and find somethign to back it up.

Thanks. Good starting debate.



[This message has been edited by Blades of Hate (edited 03-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:

*sigh*

where to begin. I'll try not to be mean since you sounded sincere.



This is not singular argument. instead, its several stupid arguments.

YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE. take each paragraph seperately and find somethign to back it up.

Thanks. Good starting debate.



aw man i get fired at this quik? owell atleast he was kinda nice!

Gr and Sr i use to shorten general and special relativity!

Yes it is scientific about the bones under pressure and the flood or i would not have brought it up! yes i know i was skeptical at first too!(it mught not be the pressure but i know that there is something about it if i was mistaken)

and for the last time its not 6,000! the guy calculated to 9,000! but that wasnt the bible it was some guy! it could be older? who knows!?!



And last but not least, i told you i dont do links i hate them i dont need to waste my time to find somehting on the internet for you guys! look it up yourself! i get my knowledge from REAL sources not the internet! that goes for the whole Gods plan in history too, look that up yourself i said! its too hard for me to explain!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Serious Arguement, that i think all you guys would like!

What argument? You state that intense pressure caused by a flood would somehow affect radiometric dating methods and that scientists can't be trusted because you say so. Making statements without backing them up with something substantial is not making an argument.

quote:Originally posted by xray:

What argument? You state that intense pressure caused by a flood would somehow affect radiometric dating methods and that scientists can't be trusted because you say so. Making statements without backing them up with something substantial is not making an argument.

i knew people wouldnt read the whole thing! just shut up please if you dont read!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

look that up yourself i said! its too hard for me to explain!

Then maybe you should stop starting threads?

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

i knew people wouldnt read the whole thing! just shut up please if you dont read!



I read the whole thing. You did not propose any arguments; you simply typed up wild ideas about how this or that could be so. That's not presenting an argument.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



And last but not least, i told you i dont do links i hate them i dont need to waste my time to find somehting on the internet for you guys! look it up yourself!

Masta Thief, You need infermation to back up your claims. Why don't you provide a link that explains how persusre can affect carbon dating or any kind of refrance.

Telling us to find it is like saying that "There is a copy of genesis in human DNA. Prove me wrong. "

Ok, I'll respond to each of your arguments in order-

Special and General Relativity What exactly are you arguing about in this paragraph? Are you trying to say that the laws of physics as we know them are incompatable with a god theory, or are what?

Fossils and Dinosaurs So why would fossilized dinosaur bones react differently to a massive flood (which we have no evidence to support ever occuring) than coal or diamond? Coal and diamond are both composed of carbon (allthough yes, they do form under rather extreme conditions), so why should they form new mineral structures while the remains of dinosaurs are preserved as fossils?

On another note radiocarbon dating does NOT depend on the appearance of a specimen, but rather its chemical composition. The pressures required to transform carbon would not exist at the bottom of supernaturally deep oceans, but rather only underneath many layers of rock.

The Universe How are we to know what we are or aren't supposed to know what's out there? Why would God have given us the capacity to create technology to escape the Earth if he didn't want us to? Furthermore, how could we escape from God if he created the entire Universe? One would think that it would be no more difficult for him to watch us in one area of his domain than another.

God's Plan So what exactly is God's plan? Or consider this - perhapse history appears to follow an ordered sequence because that is what we want to see. When you study history, do you do it to try and learn every event that happened or do you pay more attention to the events that made the world like it is today?

Science Close minded!? Biased!? Any rational scientist or atheist that ignores religion does so not because they firmly believe that the existance of a god is impossible, but that is such an unlikely hypothesis that it does not merit serious consideration. Any atheist who claims to KNOW that there is no god is acting just as irrationally as a theist who claims the opposite.

Christianity, Judaism and Islam Of course, God gave us his one true Word, and in his infinate wisdom chose not to give it to any other group of people. He is so brilliant that he chooses not to clarify exactly what he means in his holy books, but rather watches us murder each other over who worships him in the best way. Yay for Abrahamic religions!

My Own Little Post Script Nice try at being an apologist, but you need to research your points better. At least try to see the world from an atheist/agnostic viewpoint.

anti-gravity summed it up better than i did.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

i get my knowledge from REAL sources not the internet!

Yet you never cite them, so what are we to think?

Tell what your sources are. You don't have to post a link.

quote: Originally posted by anti gravity:

At least try to see the world from an atheist/agnostic viewpoint.

That's a fair and reasonable request. You were born into a world of religion, Masta Thief. Allow your mind to venture out of the confines of what you've been taught your whole life.

Edit: What I really mean to say, is:

"Luke, join the Dark Side"

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

This is Totse. I couldn't not go there, just this once.





[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 03-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

please take this serious! im not being a troll here!

After reading your post I somehow seem to doubt that

quote: no im not one of those people who think religion and science or evolution mix!

You're right. They don't. Guess which one is right? (Hint: The one with facts and evidence) quote:Sr and Gr can explain how God created the Universe way better than realism!!! a lot! anyways it more falls under time and time travel!

Congratulations, you have successfully reduced god to Back to the Future.

quote: if God was going to create the universe in 6 days he had to have done some time warping! im not saying he prepared it for millions of years for us, not at all!

What makes you think god *had* to do anything? What do you base your claims on? Star Trek? quote: im saying that for a star he would speed up the time in which it ages in a time warp kinda way! the earth as well!

If that's the case than the earth is really 4.55 billions of years old. It doesn't matter how old it is relative to some nonexistent arbitrary point you just made up , the earth relative to the time flow on earth in that case is 4.55 billions of years old. Good job ruining your argument

quote:

Fossils and dinasaurs! well at first i thought carbon dating and radio metric dating were differ!

I can tell you have no clue what you are talking about. Carbon dating is a type of radiometric dating.

quote:but this is not the case it seems it is actually better for me and my theory i guess! if God actually was the creator and the Bible is corect then it definalty explains how fossils could seem so old! its called the Flood! IF there actually was a flood then the immense pressure would have turned normal human bones to coal or diamonds something of the like but dinnasuor bones(this believe it or not is actually scientific so dont disregard it please) would have been changed through the immense pressure and the soaking of water, which some how would make it seem older than it really is when doing carbon dating (which is basicly like adding three unkown variables but dont argue this)!

I

I am correct, you have no clue how carbon dating works. "which is basicly like adding three unkown variables but dont argue this". No heat or pressure would change how the Carbon decays. Let me explain to you how carbon works. There is a natural equilibrium of C-14/C-12 on the earth's surface. As an animal lives it absorbs carbon indiscriminately. When an animal dies it stops absorbing carbon, C-14 decays, the % of C-14 is measured and the amounts of half-lifes are calculated. How the fuck does the flood affect this?

quote:

For the universe being as big as it is i have a few thoughts about it! but not like the others! God never said he didnt create other Earths! the fact that inter-gallactic space travel is immposible with out time warp(do to our aging), could mean that we are not suppose to know whats out there! but thats just a thought dont argue this please. Why not argue it? Your other point that you told me not to argue made no sense. First based on what do you assume god doesnt want us to know what's out there? Why do you base your theories on Star Trek? Also intergalactical space travel is possible. We just don't have the right equipment yet, but physicists have outlined the theory and laws that would govern it.

quote:Another could be God dont want us escaping, seems perfectly reasonable if your were God (in the way he thinks) you wouldnt want us escaping either, he gave us the ability to learn and devolop new technologys and new that eventually we would be able to get out of the atmosphere!

I am glad you know exactly what god thinks. I am glad that you think that traveling is escaping each other. Man columbus should have been stoned, what a fucking heretic. Pilgrims colonizing america? Fucking heathens escaping their fellow men.

quote:

Also i think its funny how if you look back through history you can see Gods plan of sorts! im not well devoloped on this issue, its really hard to explain! but im pretty sure you can find something about it on the internet. anyways when this has been brought up on disscusions it is said it is only mere coincidence, but in my mind thats a huge fucking coincidence!

"I know god has a plan. I am not explaining it, it's on the internet"

quote:

Science you really cant pay much attention to these days seeing as how they really are bieng biased and going unquestioned which aint scientific at all!

Yes peer-review is just like rubber stamping isn't it?

quote: Real scientists should question, science is not a census! But with all that being said you cannot completely disregard it, question and try to find a flaw yourself! some people really dont have the mental compacity to do this but still try!

which is why real scientists Do question. That's why they're often nonreligious.

quote:

ps. Chrisianity in my mind makes more sense than any other religion. If religion is right I'd say that its either Christianity, Judaism, or Islam thats correct!

Based on? Your idea of the way god should behave? Those are the religious that make you feel warm and fuzzy? What makes them any better or more true than the nordic mythology?

quote:

pss. Mustache Rider and Sammy and all you other Christians this is a good arguement you can use when debating other people! all thought up by me and my brilliance lol(please dont discredit this cause that!) http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Oh yeah that is a very excellent argument until you have to think.

[This message has been edited by Lamabot (edited 03-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



Yes it is scientific about the bones under pressure and the flood or i would not have brought it up! yes i know i was skeptical at first too!(it mught not be the pressure but i know that there is something about it if i was mistaken)

and for the last time its not 6,000! the guy calculated to 9,000! but that wasnt the bible it was some guy! it could be older? who knows!?!

You need to do some reading, even basic stuff and come to your OWN conclusion that the Earth is NOT 6000 years old.

It does not matter if it is 6000, or 9000 or even 100,000.

you would STILL be whole orders of magnitude out. You're not even distinctly CLOSE when you talk of thousands of years.

So justify it however you want, the flood forced accelerated fossil formation or "God used special relativity"

That's just dressing up some pseudo scientific BULLSHIT to justify the fact that ALL OBSERVABLE EVIDENCE points to the earth being several BILLION years old. And if you could honestly find a decent body of evidence to the contrary then it would cause an upheaval of titanic proportions within the scientific community. Practically every textbook would need to be re-written.

Why has this upheaval not occurred then? Because nothing has EVER been found to suggest the earth is in the region of several thousand years old.

This is an abhorrence of an idea, get with the times flat-earther.

The age of the Earth really goes beyond merely carbon dating what is on Earth. Scientists aren't dating the solar system by carbon dating and they have calculated the ages of the sun, and the other planets of our system (not to mention comets, other systems and other galaxies). I mean c'mon, they're following microwaves and radiation to try and determine the age and size of the whole universe (if it's even possible, but thats another topic and most of it is beyond my comprehension at this point).

Err.. anyway before I go too far off topic, my point was going to be that it is not very likely that the rest of our system is billions of years old, but our planet is only a few thousand years old- and already harboring advanced life (all because God thought it was a cool spot?).

[This message has been edited by Diabolic acid (edited 03-27-2007).]

Alright, in order to try to be unbiased I'll provide two links

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-c14.html

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp

Sorry if they don't work, I'm on a shitty school computer and its a lot of work to tinyurl. Work on this computer then you'd think. The first link goes agaist creationism and second supports it.

One thing I feel like throwing out on the point of time travel is what some christian lady said me. She said "Well God created Earth and the animals on it before he created time."

If you read the original bible, it doesn't say the Earth was made in 6 days, it says it was made in 6 stages. When it was translated the king turned it to days to make it easier for the commopn people to understand. If you think of it in stages and that god hadn't yet created time, one day (stage) could be equal to millions of millions of years. So carbon dating could woork correctly and prove the earth is millions of years old because it is millions of years old purley because of our conception of time.

I don't belive any of this, its like saying that any evidence we find agaisnt god was placed there by god to test us. Its basically an unprovable end-all answer to everything and I hate it when people do it.

It is however, something interesting to consider.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

please take this serious! im not being a troll here!

Ahahahahahaha...Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

like i said before its called general and special relitivity! no im not one of those people who think religion and science or evolution mix! Sr and Gr can explain how God created the Universe way better than realism!!! a lot! anyways it more falls under time and time travel! if God was going to create the universe in 6 days he had to have done some time warping! im not saying he prepared it for millions of years for us, not at all! im saying that for a star he would speed up the time in which it ages in a time warp kinda way! the earth as well!

That makes no sense. That has so very, very little to do with either theory of relativity. What you speak of is time dilation for observing two events, not time travel. Please consult wikipedia, or a book.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Fossils and dinasaurs! well at first i thought carbon dating and radio metric dating were differ! but this is not the case it seems it is actually better for me and my theory i guess!

Well, carbon and radiometric dating differ only in the isotopes they tend to use. In reality they're the same procedure. I really don't see how this is better for your "theory".

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

if God actually was the creator and the Bible is corect then it definalty explains how fossils could seem so old! its called the Flood! IF there actually was a flood then the immense pressure would have turned normal human bones to coal or diamonds something of the like

Must have been a lot of hot, heavy water. Especially considering diamonds need around 60 kilobars of pressure, and temperatures in excess of 900 degrees celsius to form.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

but dinnasuor bones(this believe it or not is actually scientific so dont disregard it please)

Oh boy, I KNEW something good was coming after this.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

would have been changed through the immense pressure and the soaking of water, which some how would make it seem older than it really is when doing carbon dating (which is basicly like adding three unkown variables but dont argue this)![/B]

Wait, three unknown variables? We have pressure, water saturation, and...Well, whatever. Maybe "stupidity" is a variable. Except in your case. Then it's a mathematical constant. But I digress.

I really doubt that the decay rate of a radioactive isotope is in any way effected by pressure, or water. It's a subatomic process that is impossible to speed up or slow down in nature.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

For the universe being as big as it is i have a few thoughts about it! but not like the others! God never said he didnt create other Earths! the fact that inter-gallactic space travel is immposible with out time warp(do to our aging), could mean that we are not suppose to know whats out there! but thats just a thought dont argue this please. Another could be God dont want us escaping, seems perfectly reasonable if your were God (in the way he thinks) you wouldnt want us escaping either, he gave us the ability to learn and devolop new technologys and new that eventually we would be able to get out of the atmosphere!

Thank you for kindly reading God's mind for us. You now join the ranks of crazies who have also spoken with him (Hitler, Mussolini, most serial killers...)

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Also i think its funny how if you look back through history you can see Gods plan of sorts! im not well devoloped on this issue, its really hard to explain! but im pretty sure you can find something about it on the internet.

You are so stupid that it hurts.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Science you really cant pay much attention to these days seeing as how they really are bieng biased and going unquestioned which aint scientific at all!Real scientists should question, science is not a census! But with all that being said you cannot completely disregard it, question and try to find a flaw yourself!

Do you have ANY idea how much work and debate goes into accepting a new theory? String theory is still being debated after nearly half a century. Viruses have been common knowledge since 1910, and yet some biologists think they do not qualify as life while others do. There is no "census".

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

some people really dont have the mental compacity to do this but still try!

You don't say?

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



ps. Chrisianity in my mind makes more sense than any other religion. If religion is right I'd say that its either Christianity, Judaism, or Islam thats correct!

Right. That makes sense. Thank you for explaining that.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

thought up by me and my brilliance lol(please dont discredit this cause that!) http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Oh, don't worry. It does that all by itself.

^ owned http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Masta Thief,

It is your rebuttal.

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

You need to do some reading, even basic stuff and come to your OWN conclusion that the Earth is NOT 6000 years old.

It does not matter if it is 6000, or 9000 or even 100,000.

you would STILL be whole orders of magnitude out. You're not even distinctly CLOSE when you talk of thousands of years.

So justify it however you want, the flood forced accelerated fossil formation or "God used special relativity"

That's just dressing up some pseudo scientific BULLSHIT to justify the fact that ALL OBSERVABLE EVIDENCE points to the earth being several BILLION years old. And if you could honestly find a decent body of evidence to the contrary then it would cause an upheaval of titanic proportions within the scientific community. Practically every textbook would need to be re-written.

Why has this upheaval not occurred then? Because nothing has EVER been found to suggest the earth is in the region of several thousand years old.

This is an abhorrence of an idea, get with the times flat-earther.

ill reply to you since i like you more!

first for the people who wants to know my sources, i found that the flood would do that to the dinnasour bones(because they are stronger, didnt make new material!) through a friend who studys this stuff at UC! he learned from his proffesor that the bones would have such an effect to the pressure or something!



other than that when i say General and special im using that along the lines as time and timtravel! God could timewarp things that need age for us. not saying that he did it to throw us off, but instead its kinda like fast creation. if it would take an earth to form for millions of years, and he was making it in a day. when studied from humans yes the Earth would seem older. if you didnt understand that heres a better example- a stars light takes millions of years to reach Earth right? well if God did create the universe he would have had to warp(warp is for lack of better words) the procces, or speed it up! somewhere along those lines. why i bring up General and special is all that cannot be done under Newtons Absolute space and time!

another i never said anything bout a young Earth nor old earth. thats beyond me and if God would have used time warping in a way we could never know! and i really dont care bout the age of the earth my interests are in space for the moment!

the reasons i cant provide links is because its not like there is a whole site dedicated to this shit! but if you really wanna know where my conclusions come from i suggest you ask a proffesor or something! ask if the flood would have had those effects on the dinnasours bones and anything else you are concerned about. o and i might add that you should ask a known unbiased expert in that field. dont ask some public known religion hater that is involved in a completly differ field of the subject!

what does this argue some might ask? obviously im arguing how God could've have created it as an altternative answer of sciences using thier own studies!

i understand how you might've heard from a professor, but look at what molecularmollusc said about how hot diamonds need to be in order to form.

Water wouldn't do that. Plus, i've never seen evidence that points to a time (except for maybe millions of years ago) where the entire land portion of the earth was covered in water. That much water doesn't exist in the first place (i think) and even so... if there was enough, it wouldn't be 100,000 feet high of water covering the dinosaur bones which... DO NOT AFFECT CARBON DATING. Nor.. does water help in the production of diamonds =/

EDIT:

Masta Thief, i appreciate how you've formed your ideas for this debate, used no ad hominem attacks, and have responded politely. Thank you, i enjoy the change.

[This message has been edited by Blades of Hate (edited 03-27-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Blades of Hate:

i understand how you might've heard from a professor, but look at what molecularmollusc said about how hot diamonds need to be in order to form.

Water wouldn't do that. Plus, i've never seen evidence that points to a time (except for maybe millions of years ago) where the entire land portion of the earth was covered in water. That much water doesn't exist in the first place (i think) and even so... if there was enough, it wouldn't be 100,000 feet high of water covering the dinosaur bones which... DO NOT AFFECT CARBON DATING. Nor.. does water help in the production of diamonds =/

EDIT:

Masta Thief, i appreciate how you've formed your ideas for this debate, used no ad hominem attacks, and have responded politely. Thank you, i enjoy the change.



eh i have my moments!

but if you guys would seriously like me check(not on the internet) i will and try to find out about the whole flood and bones things! ill even post it here soon.

ps. it was coal or diamonds cause i couldnt remember. but anyways that also could say that is the reason why no humans are with diannasours? and that humans would be destroyed while dinnasours were preserved. so its kinda a two way arguement.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

pss. Mustache Rider and Sammy and all you other Christians this is a good arguement you can use when debating other people! all thought up by me and my brilliance lol

Priceless.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Priceless.

hey you took stuff out! of course that'll make me look bad!

please leave all flames in other topics that are retarded i did, now quit being hypocrits and be serious!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



o and i might add that you should ask a known unbiased expert in that field.

You either entertain a belief in God, or you don't. It would be tough to find an "unbiased" expert who was completely indifferent to one side or the other.

You will have some that claim to be unbiased by stating they're agnostic. They're really just a sheep in wolf's clothing, paying verbal homage to the possibility of a God as a kind of insurance policy, just in case.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

You either entertain a belief in God, or you don't. It would be tough to find an "unbiased" expert who was completely indifferent to one side or the other.

You will have some that claim to be unbiased by stating they're agnostic. They're really just a sheep in wolf's clothing, paying verbal homage to the possibility of a God as a kind of insurance policy, just in case.



quit being difficult and just ask you moron! you can ask an athiest just not one thats whole purpose in life i]s to disprove God! o ya when you ask ask if they have ever tested it, or know about it to make the claim and not just a guess? if they havnt heard about dont bother some people like to make up stuff as long as its good for them!



[This message has been edited by Masta Thief (edited 03-28-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

hey you took stuff out! of course that'll make me look bad!

please leave all flames in other topics that are retarded i did, now quit being hypocrits and be serious!

Be serious about what? I believe i owned your "claim" as thoroughly as possible.

Honestly, can we adopt a policy of neglect at this point? This is a waste of time. The kid can not even convey his thoughts in a coherent manner.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

ill reply to you since i like you more!

first for the people who wants to know my sources, i found that the flood would do that to the dinnasour bones(because they are stronger, didnt make new material!) through a friend who studys this stuff at UC! he learned from his proffesor that the bones would have such an effect to the pressure or something!

Ok masta, I understand the concept of your idea but i'm afraid that A Second hand story just doesn't cut it as evidence these days.

Some random college professor (we don't know his credentials or motives) Told some RANDOM student ( We don't know HIS credentials or motives either) WHo then told YOU. And when he told you it seems he was pretty fucking vague on the details. Because you seem to have a hard time explaining the theory yourself.

Either way the basis of the claim is that the flood caused fossilisation. Firstly there is no direct evidence to suggest that the entire planet was once covered in water. Secondly if it HAD been there would have been deeper areas, and shallower areas. This would corrispond to a difference in the weight of the water and hence the pressure exerted by it.

By your reasoning, The age of a fossil would be determined by how deep it was covered by floodwater. This is clearly not true, instead we see layers of fossils, Laid down over time in sedimentary rock. Certain species are not found in the same layers as others and this is indicitive of great periods of time passing between one creature existing and another existing.

Not the short sharp flood that you describe, Wiping out all organisms indiscriminately and fossilising them all in the same layer through unknown processes within a few thousand years. This is not supported by an observable evidence. And I might add this is why you have failed to post any observable evidence.

So far it's been "A friend heard it off a professor"

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



other than that when i say General and special im using that along the lines as time and timtravel! God could timewarp things that need age for us. not saying that he did it to throw us off, but instead its kinda like fast creation. if it would take an earth to form for millions of years, and he was making it in a day. when studied from humans yes the Earth would seem older.

Many problems with this, Basically you just need to get a better grasp of special relativity, because that is not how it works. What the poster above me posted is correct, Time dialation works between two frames of reference and hence picking an arbitrary point of reference OUTSIDE the universal timeline is a pointless exercise.

I could say that I've been to a parallel universe and from THEIR frame of reference the earth is only 60 days old. Well it's a waste of breath because that doesn't change the age of the earth from OUR frame of reference, Tims is relative and we measure time from Earths frame of reference. So picking another frame of reference from which to judge the age of the earth does nothing.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



if you didnt understand that heres a better example- a stars light takes millions of years to reach Earth right? well if God did create the universe he would have had to warp(warp is for lack of better words) the procces, or speed it up! somewhere along those lines. why i bring up General and special is all that cannot be done under Newtons Absolute space and time!



Again you're not understanding, If A god character had "sped up time" To account for certain processes, then that makes the universe exactly as old as we suppose it is. The time has passed and it doesn't matter if some "god" character perceived it as passing slower from a different frame of reference. That is entirely irrelevent.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:



the reasons i cant provide links is because its not like there is a whole site dedicated to this shit! but if you really wanna know where my conclusions come from i suggest you ask a proffesor or something! ask if the flood would have had those effects on the dinnasours bones and anything else you are concerned about. o and i might add that you should ask a known unbiased expert in that field.



There is not a single "known" professor biased OR unbiased that will substantiate your claime that dinosaur bones were fossilised in the space of a few thousand years by intense pressures brought about by the biblical flood.

Sorry.

quote:Originally posted by Diabolic acid:

Honestly, can we adopt a policy of neglect at this point? This is a waste of time. The kid can not even convey his thoughts in a coherent manner.

One, if there was a massive biblical flood there would be a uniform layer of sediment found worldwide, which there isn't.

Second, by you uttering dinosaurs and carbon dating in the same paragraph this undoubtedly proves you don't know what you are talking about. Carbon dating is only good for up to 50,000 years.

Third, are you retarded or homeschooled?

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

IF there actually was a flood then the immense pressure would have turned normal human bones to coal or diamonds...

Calcium =\= carbon.

Now... just because I like you, for some reason that escapes me...

1 The only thing that can fuck up carbon dating is a neutron source. Find the pressure at which spontaneous nuclear fusion occurrs, and calculate the depth of water required to produce it. Alternately, find an alternate neutron source.

2 You may wish to study the geology of floodwaters for several years. It is actually an established field of geology.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Sr and Gr can explain how God created the Universe way better than realism!!! a lot! anyways it more falls under time and time travel! if God was going to create the universe in 6 days he had to have done some time warping!

3 You will also want to study the mathematics of special and general relativity before using them in debate.

Best of luck.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

You either entertain a belief in God, or you don't. It would be tough to find an "unbiased" expert who was completely indifferent to one side or the other.

You will have some that claim to be unbiased by stating they're agnostic. They're really just a sheep in wolf's clothing, paying verbal homage to the possibility of a God as a kind of insurance policy, just in case.



you're practically as bad as a christian who goes around killing someone in the name of their religion. you're so irrational when it comes to christians it's seriously bordering on clinical paranoia. now i'm not a psychologist so i can't say for sure, but i would bet a lot of money that you would be diagnosed with severe paranoia.

agnostics are sheeps in wolf's clothing? have you ever considered that maybe they've just resigned to the fact that they just don't know 1 way or the other?

as of 2005 did you know that approx. 92 percent of all the people in the world believed in some religion? do you sleep at night? do you board up your doors and windows to make sure they don't break in and try to get you? lol

[This message has been edited by mustache rider (edited 03-28-2007).]

quote: you're practically as bad as a christian who goes around killing someone in the name of their religion.

Take that back, because you know it's not only a ridiculous comparison, but an outright lie.

mustache, don't even PRETEND like you know who I am, or what my personality is like outside of this forum. Also, I'd suggest not kidding yourself into thinking that you are some kind of armchair psychiatrist by attempting to "diagnose" me.

I've stated before - I do not hate Christians. And I certainly don't fear them, like you implied by the slanderous "paranoid" comment.

Every.single.person. in my personal life who I love and am close to in my family is Christian. I grew up around Christians. If you ever met me outside of these forums, you would have absolutely no idea where my opinion stood on God - due to the fact that I don't go around advertising it, or trying to make people feel uncomfortable around me, or uncomfortable with themselves -

EXCEPT FOR IN A NEUTRAL ARENA LIKE THIS THAT DESIGNATES ITSELF FOR RELIGIOUS DEBATE. http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/006773.html

You clearly haven't read much of what I've written on here regarding my position on faith. You've just taken the parts that offend you personally, and probably carry somewhat of a grudge against me because I bust your balls about the trollish nature you exhibit sometimes.

I understand that some of my ideologies might offend you, and that is unfortunate. But I won't apologize for who I am, especially considering that I do not act inappropriately towards those who do not share in my philosophies. I don't pretend that I am a better person than they are just because they believe in ghosts and I don't.

I don't think most of your Christian brethren (including yourself)can claim the same.

I don't opine about my skeptical tendencies in this forum to spread hate towards non-skeptics. I am in it just to create awareness by pushing my own ideas, hopefully to let others know that ALL atheists aren't angsty teenagers just bucking authority.

I felt like I owed YOU this explanation, but that's where it stops - merely because most other people on here who have taken the time to get to know me already know that I'm not Anti-Christianity ... I'm anti-FAITH and PRO-rational thought.

I don't expect you to change your judgement of me, because people like you usually assemble their assumptions WELL in advance of getting to the facts. And that's okay with me too. I'm not here to win friends - only influence people. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

It's okay for Christians to bash atheists and tell them repeatedly that they're going to burn in hell. But let an Atheist give their opinion of the ridiculousness that they infer from the idea of supernatural Gods ... and the Christians start bawling about it. I'd suggest to them to practice the art of "taking", since they've already mastered the art of "dishing".

I don't know what else to say, other than: You need to get over it. I'm not going away.

Owned.

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

There is not a single "known" professor biased OR unbiased that will substantiate your claime that dinosaur bones were fossilised in the space of a few thousand years by intense pressures brought about by the biblical flood.

Sorry.

i dont know maybe its just my writting but you misunderstood what i was saying! it would just seem older. but does it really matter cause if a God did create i suppose he could do what ever the hell he wanted!

well there is two arguements i guess to the whole flood thing. one- it did somehting to make them seem older i guess 2- the reason we cant find the Human bones is they would have been turned to diamond and yes i checked it would be diamond! you might say it needs heat! but remember if the pressure is that great the friction would cause the heat! its something along those lines!



and i told you before i would go check on that theory so shut up for the moment this thread is over for time bieng!

quote:Originally posted by JoePedo:

3 You will also want to study the mathematics of special and general relativity before using them in debate.

Best of luck.

I know what special and general is im not a moron! im just saying realism doesnt allow for time distorion! most Christians would be realists(believe in Newtons absolute space and time) but im saying under General and Special laws it is more plausible for there to be a God!

Masta Thief.

Stop talking about Special and General reletivity ok?

I'm not being rude but you have NO idea what it is OR why you are using it in an argument about god. Every post you make convinces me more and more of this fact.

The people here that DO know something about special relativity are slapping themselves in the forhead because your understanding of it is SO narrow.

So please just put it aside for now, There are better ways of trying to argue your point than incorrectly citing theories that you have a poor grasp of.

Again really not trying to be insulting or mean. Just pointing out the facts and i'm sure people will back me up on this.

You do not understand the special theory of relativity enough to use it in the manner you are using it to back up your argument.

Your logic is false, Your assertians are false and your understanding is flawed.

So let's just pretend that SR never came into this argument.

quote:Originally posted by Ressotami:

Masta Thief.

Stop talking about Special and General reletivity ok?

I'm not being rude but you have NO idea what it is OR why you are using it in an argument about god. Every post you make convinces me more and more of this fact.

The people here that DO know something about special relativity are slapping themselves in the forhead because your understanding of it is SO narrow.

So please just put it aside for now, There are better ways of trying to argue your point than incorrectly citing theories that you have a poor grasp of.

Again really not trying to be insulting or mean. Just pointing out the facts and i'm sure people will back me up on this.

You do not understand the special theory of relativity enough to use it in the manner you are using it to back up your argument.

Your logic is false, Your assertians are false and your understanding is flawed.

So let's just pretend that SR never came into this argument.

holy shit! wow, no all im saying is general and special allows for such phenomina to take place! absolute time and space does not! whats so hard about that!?! its not an arguement to people outside religion! its more of an in side arguement were all im saying its more likely God could create the Universe under what special and general allow for! Under realsim God couldnt do it the same way! so no stay out of it!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

DURRRRR I DONT HVAE SUOURCES BTUT TAHT DOSENT MAT%TR IMM RIIGT ALWASY!!!!

It's irrelevent how you were attempting to use the argument mate, I'm simply pointing out that you do not have a sufficient understanding of special relativity to use it in an argument such as you have been attempting.

You may think you understand the concepts you are using but to anyone that knows ANYTHING about special relativity it's clear that you do not.

So mate just stick to the stuff you are absolutely 100% on.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

holy shit! wow, no all im saying is general and special allows for such phenomina to take place! absolute time and space does not! whats so hard about that!?! its not an arguement to people outside religion! its more of an in side arguement were all im saying its more likely God could create the Universe under what special and general allow for! Under realsim God couldnt do it the same way! so no stay out of it!

Until you explain how "general and special" allows for such phenomena to take place it like saying that quantum physics allows snakes to talk. For the outside observers it seems that you are just tagging a complex theory onto your desired results.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

I know what special and general is im not a moron!

Without adressing your assertion at this exact moment, there are many people who are not particularly morons who could not answer such as the following question : what is the target velocity to utilize a gram of xenon plasma in the spontaneous generation of a gravity well equivalent to that of earth?

There are, however, persons that can answer this question, as well as all temporal questions arising of special relativity.

They, in fact, would be able to post the equations by which their assertion is derived. Some of the more skillful ones might even discuss the limitations which underpin the theory.

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Human bones is they would have been turned to diamond and yes i checked it would be diamond!

The primary tissue of bone, osseous tissue, is a relatively hard and lightweight composite material, formed mostly of calcium phosphate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone

A diamond is a transparent crystal of tetrahedrally bonded carbon atoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond

...just a few things.

I have difficulty taking anything with so many exclamation marks seriously. in five years you'll be hoping nobody remembers this, the same as 90% of these stupid arguments (from both sides). in 20 years, the christians will find proof that this argument is wrong, but by then there will be a new theory.

I say this without having read it fully. but look at the history of this argument and you'll see that our forebears have been just as stupid and brick-headed as all of us involved in this argument are.

I love how you say science sucks balls, but yet, you're trying to use science to prove your theory...

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

Until you explain how "general and special" allows for such phenomena to take place it like saying that quantum physics allows snakes to talk. For the outside observers it seems that you are just tagging a complex theory onto your desired results.

You guys aint understanding! Why do people think timetravel is possible? because Special allows for such a thing! So in the same way as people bieng able to go through time God could distort it . But none of this would be plausible if absolute time and space were correct!

is it that hard to understand?!!

Currently, there are 2 central models used in physics to explain almost everything in the universe - quantum mechanics, and general relativity. But, these 2 theories, when they have to be applied at the same time, are in fact incompatible - they disagree!

so what your saying is god created the universe. And are physics theories are correct in explaining how he did it.

Was that so hard to say? I dont get what your point is. Lots of people believe that everything science is discovering is gods tools, even evolution. Its not like physics has come close to disprove god yet, it doesnt even suggest god isnt real.



[This message has been edited by boozehound420 (edited 03-28-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

so what your saying is god created the universe. And are physics theories are correct in explaining how he did it.

Was that so hard to say? I dont get what your point is. Lots of people believe that everything science is discovering is gods tools, even evolution. Its not like physics has come close to disprove god yet, it doesnt even suggest god isnt real.



Thank you finnaly someone understood! i know i was arguing other Religous people, but i dont believe in evolution i just believe science has come around with the wrong answer!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

2- the reason we cant find the Human bones is they would have been turned to diamond and yes i checked it would be diamond!

Source?

quote:

you might say it needs heat! but remember if the pressure is that great the friction would cause the heat! its something along those lines!

Correct. The bottom of the ocean is 2200 degrees Fahrenheit.

EDIT: I found some information on my own about humans becoming diamonds

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2002/09/55231

The point is that you never post your sources!!! You say you don't use internet sources? Fine! Post the name of the book. While your at it use proper punctuation, grammar, and capitalization.

[This message has been edited by Punk_Rocker_22 (edited 03-29-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Punk_Rocker_22:

Correct. The bottom of the ocean is 2200 degrees Fahrenheit.

EDIT: I found some information on my own about humans becoming diamonds

http:// www.wired. (http: //www.wire d.com/cult ure/lifest yle/news/2 002/09/552 31) com/culture/lifestyle/news/2002/09/55231

The point is that you never post your sources!!! You say you don't use internet sources? Fine! Post the name of the book. While your at it use proper punctuation, grammar, and capitalization.



ok i guess that would be fair enough! i could list my sources but sometimes its collective knowledge from over time! but ill try to remember anyways!

For pure carbon to be turned into the into diamonds you need 5000 to 70 000 atmospheres of pressure and 1200 and 1500 oC of heat. 10.3 meters of water causes atmospheres of pressure.

So that's a minimum of 515 km of water ((50000x10.3)/1000). Thats about where the space shuttle orbits. But it is much much much more than that because of 2 reasons. First you need much more pressure because of the lack of heat on the oceans floor. secondly the carbon in the bones is already bonded to other stuff. I am not 100% sure that diamonds could form into with the carbon boned to other stuff.

http://bainite.wordpress.com/2006/09/29/how-to-make-a-diamond/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure

[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 03-29-2007).]

Whatever happened to the fact that Einstein's rules of Special and General Relativity don't allow the possibility of time travel?

People in this forum that are not religious, listen for one moment please. You are not going to win an arguement with Masta Theif here. Not because he's right, as a matter of fact he is far from it, and his constant display of self smugness, along with his assurance in his claims, makes me utterly disgusted in him. But he is a fairly devout christian as we all know, and no matter how much you push and struggle to change him, or prove him wrong he won't. Or even if you prove him wrong, and he knows it, he will do one of several things:

A. Change his arguement by claiming that you didn't listen to him.

B. Say that you are wrong without giving any amount of verifiable proof.

C. Laugh at you and tell you that you're going to hell. (Although he doesn't do this as much any more which makes me respect him a little more than usual)

or finally

D. Give some form of example from an unreliable source and not be willing to post where he found it, or give an exact response to any questions asked about it other than that it's "unbiased, and true."

There's no actual point in arguing anymore. You've all won, Masta Theif has lost, he just won't stand to admit the fact that he is wrong, or that there is something that can't be proven about his religion. By that I mean that something happened that doesn't exactly confirm the theory of a specific "God."

Well, gg gtfo n00bs.

/thread