Look at all the wars ever. 90% would have been caused by religion. IF religion didnt exist, there wouldnt be as many wars. Feel free to flame, but do your research first before u start saying im a god bashing idiot or something stupid like that.

I've seen more convincing arguments scrawled in bathroom stalls. John truly IS a faggot.

And if people didn't exist there would be no wars.

Sure there have been many religious wars, but when I think about all of the great empires, I think that they waged war mostly for conquest and domination. The Romans didn't necessarily conquer the neighbors because of religion, although they did believe that they were better than the "barbarians" to the North and in surrounding areas.

Even before that, Greece wasn't fighting specifically for religion, although their gods did play a small role. Alexander the Great did not conquer the land that he did merely for religious reasons.

What religion was Genghis(sp?) Khan fighting for when the Mongols were running around Asia? Or the Huns in Western Asia/Europe?

The Aztecs rose to power because of decades of oppression by surrounding tribes, and once they became the strongest tribe they simply didn't stop expanding their influence. It wasn't a religious thing. Religion did play a PART in the Spanish conquest of Central and South America, but God was only one of the three G's. Don't forget about Gold and Glory- They wanted wealth and power too.

Also, the French, Dutch, and British expansions into the New World (and other continents) were mainly for economic and political purposes.

Almost all of the American wars were based on politics, not religion. We may have used the idea of Manifest Destiny to push west but the prime reason was not to push Christianity on the natives.

What about WWI? WWII? The Cold War and related proxy wars?

I will give you the Muslim expansions, and the Crusades, Catholic/Protestant disputes, and other smaller religious wars in various areas of the world. Sure, many wars have been fought over religious oppression or extreme beliefs, but I would NOT say that religion has been the basis for 90% of all wars.



[This message has been edited by Diabolic acid (edited 03-28-2007).]

Remember the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks all wanted to please their gods. They constantly prayed to them, and when their gods "told them" to go and crush some other place, they would. If we werent so stupid, we wouldnt bother. War is a game played primarily by men, as women are the most violent in the animal kingdom,we had to compensate. So they had the god of war and god of this and god of that. Is there any proof god exists? The plain simple answer is no. No1 has ever seen him, spoke to him or anything. Seeing is beleiving and because no1 has any photographic proof, than its the biggest hoax ever.

Humans are rotten to the core, you don't need religion to inspire us to kill eachother. My dog has more compassion than at least half of the human population

This hasn't proved anything, especially the claim that 90% of all wars are caused by religion.

Now, war is a game that is primarily played by men with wealth and power, and they have sometimes used religion as a means to gather public support, or to shroud the public from their true intentions, but this in no way implies that religion caused the wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars

You will find that religion has caused a fraction of the wars, but not nearly 90%. Humans simply have a dark side. We're animals, and we fight like many animals do.

[This message has been edited by Diabolic acid (edited 03-29-2007).]

Religion is the symptom, not the cause.

It's human nature to form groups and kill eachother.

Religion just enables us to do it more efficiantly.

quote:Originally posted by CatharticWeek:

Religion is the symptom, not the cause.

It's human nature to form groups and kill eachother.

Religion just enables us to do it more efficiantly.

Ah... nihilism at it's best.

"It's just human nature".

quote:Originally posted by Kazz:



"It's just human nature".

But still, every act of violence , aggression or just generally negative behaviour has one thing in common: People.

The only common element to war that I can think of is Humans, which points more towards people being the cause than anything else, don't you think?

This site:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon



gives brief dscriptions of deaths caused by all major conflicts of the

20th century, and includes a category of religious conflicts in both

the 20th century and earlier:



Religious Conflicts (selected)

Generally speaking, in most of the following cases, religion is both

the stated cause of the killing and the only substantive difference

between the two opposing groups. Obviously, there would be many

additional conflicts where religion is just one of several divisions.

Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49

Algeria, 1992-

Baha'is, 1848-54

Bosnia, 1992-95

Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901

Christian Romans, 30-313 CE

Croatia, 1991-92

Early Christian doctrinal disputes

English Civil War, 1642-46

Holocaust, 1938-45

Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598

India, 1992-2002

India: Suttee & Thugs

Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947

Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-

Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92

Jews, 1348

Jonestown, 1978

Lebanon

1860

1975-92

Martyrs, generally

Molucca Is., 1999-

Mongolia, 1937-39

Northern Ireland, 1974-98

Responsibility generally (Is religion responsible for more deaths than ...?)

Christian culpabiltiy

Russian pogroms:

1905-06

1917-22

St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572

Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE

Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38

Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91

Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834

Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64

Thirty Years War, 1618-48

Tudor England

Vietnam, 1800s

Witch Hunts, 1400-1800

Xhosa, 1857

In addition, here are a few noteworthy conflicts where dissimilar

ethnic groups fought for primarily religious reasons:

Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE

Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-

Al Qaeda, 1993-

Crusades, 1095-1291

Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609

Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=501208

quite a few, i dont feel like tallying the death count though.

Nice compilation you provided for us, boozehound. Maybe I'll find myself with enough time to kill this weekend to actually tally the roundabout death count.

(No one hold your breath for this)

Religion is just an excuse we would kill each other without it... it's human nature.

OP manages to be incorrect in so many different ways and in such vast extents, one is daunted at the enormity of the task involved in setting him straight.

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it, though. . . .

Much mischief has been perpetrated in the name of religion, true, but to confine it to warefare is to trivialize the subject. To name but a few instances--the burning times (fueled by the Malleus Maleficarum--which I doubt he has even heard of, much less read), the Salem witch trials, the prod vs Catholic unpleasantless in Ireland, and the systematic oppression of women in virtually all Abrahamic religions.

The photo of god nonsense simply proves that OP is laboring under the superstition of materialism. Great thinkers from Plato to Einstein have realized that the visible world is largely illusory, and that reality is nonlocal.

God--not as some gaseous invertebrate or old man in the sky, but as the expression of the sentient, creative and loving force which permeates the universe--has been perceived by many down through the years. We are generally known as gnostics, mystics, shamans, gurus, ascended masters--the labels are unimportant.

quote:Originally posted by fallinghouse:

And if people didn't exist there would be no wars.

Yes there would.

Except that they'd be fought by massive laser-wielding chickens.

quote:Originally posted by jb_mcbean:

Yes there would.

Except that they'd be fought by massive laser-wielding chickens.

and destructo beaver-bots...

quote:Originally posted by jb_mcbean:

Yes there would.

Except that they'd be fought by massive laser-wielding chickens.

*stands corrected*

Hitler - ~6million killed through the Holocaust alone.

Stalin - up to 30 million Russians killed through collectivisation, the second world war, the purges and gulags.

Neither believed in God (as far as we know) or followed religion.

My weak argument can match yours, sonny http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Diabolic acid:

Humans simply have a dark side. We're animals, and we fight like many animals do.



There is only a handful of species that will fight between each other like humans do.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

OP manages to be incorrect in so many different ways and in such vast extents, one is daunted at the enormity of the task involved in setting him straight.

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it, though. . . .

His percentage is off, and his point may not be articulated as well as you'd prefer, but sir - you have failed at setting him straight.

quote:

Much mischief has been perpetrated in the name of religion

Understatement of the century.

quote:

The photo of god nonsese simply proves that OP is laboring under the superstition of materialism.

Superstition of materialism? That is the finest example of an oxymoron I believe I've ever witnessed with my two brown eyes.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:

God--not as some gaseous invertebrate or old man in the sky, but as the expression of the sentient, creative and loving force which permeates the universe--

--has been created by mankind down through the years to help heal the emotional, egotistical scars of what it means to be mortal. Without man, God could not exist. Without God, man could learn to bootstrap himself out of many dilemmas that revolve around the whole religious experience.

quote:

mystics, shamans, gurus, ascended masters--

--seem to revolve around their own illusion of power and self-exalted fantasy.

God defined as an "expression" of anything perceived by mankind helps support the illogical fantasy of man being the center and primary focus of all the Universe.

Sentience, creativity and love are what they are, traits exhibited by man and animal alike. There is nothing miraculous about any of those traits. Why factor God in?

Would it be entirely too much to ask to just let metaphors be metaphors, so as not to further complicate the already clusterfucked continuum of irrational thought for those already infected with it?

[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 03-30-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by SafeAsMilk:

There is only a handful of species that will fight between each other like humans do.

It's no wonder that I can never see anything better than a cock fight! Why not duck-billed platypus fights, eh???

I'm just kidding, I'm not that cruel. BTW, no animals were harmed during this post. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by SafeAsMilk:

There is only a handful of species that will fight between each other like humans do.

Are you shitting me? Animals compete constantly in nature. They fight, they take territory. A group of ants commonly called "slavemaker ants" will coordinate large raids on other nests with the sole purpose of enslaving the entire population.

Just because animals don't form republics does not, by any means, mean that they don't fight like humans do.

quote:Originally posted by MolecularMollusc:

[..]A group of ants commonly called "slavemaker ants" will coordinate large raids on other nests with the sole purpose of enslaving the entire population.

[...]

Yes but those are religious ants! The atheist ants all live in peace and harmony....

quote:Originally posted by fallinghouse:

And if people didn't exist there would be no wars.

I make this point time and time again but nobody accepts that this will solve everything. Hopefully the human race will wipe itself out at some point but a lot more people will suffer existence before then. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Hopefully not until after my lifetime. And my kids' lifetimes. And my grandkids. And maybe their grandkids as well. Beyond that, I don't think I care too much...

quote:Originally posted by Mellow_Fellow:

Hitler - ~6million killed through the Holocaust alone.

Stalin - up to 30 million Russians killed through collectivisation, the second world war, the purges and gulags.

Neither believed in God (as far as we know) or followed religion.

My weak argument can match yours, sonny http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

The beliefs of 1 person doesnt matter.

Hitler for example, whether or not he was bullshitting his christian beliefs shouldnt matter. He himself didnt kill 6 million jews, millions of Nazi christians killed 6 million jews.

I remember hearing something about Hitler being raised in one sect of Christianity, and actually killing off people from other sects but I don't remember which. However, I have also heard that he was an Atheist, and the history channel claims that he was into the Occult, so this would negate the first claim. I'm confused about the whole thing.

quote:Originally posted by Rizzo in a box:

I've seen more convincing arguments scrawled in bathroom stalls.

stupid argument, whats wrong with a bunch of people coming together to believe in a higher force, especially if that force is promoting peace. im not religious at all, but i dont have a problem with anyone who is, i dont like terrorist. doesnt mean i dont like muslims. its the way people who have power view things, its the way they spread their ideas and views to others. half of america wouldnt hate muslims if our government said that it wasnt muslims that attacked us on 9/11 (RIP) if the government said it was communist we would be all over chinas ass. its all whos in power. so a bunch of popes over the years say that muslims need to die and its gods choice. the popes having the power put it to use, just like our government. i wouldnt consider myself anarchist because i think a government could be good, to a certain extent.
and whoever started this post is just trying to let out some stupid ideas that havent been thought through all the way. sure alot of the wars were fought for religion but name one time when god called upon his people to kill muslims, or another race, its the people who are in power who word things different. they say muslims are bad or heretics w/e but they also teach not to kill. war isnt caused because gods, its caused because of people. people would easily find another reason to fight wars besides religion. cant blame it all on one thing.

ps. i dont believe in god or a higher force. and if you do. good for you i do believe in having faith in something. my faith relies in my friends.

AF--I LOVE your way with words. You sound almost like a reincarnation of mizled--high praise indeed.

You took issue with the phrase "superstition of materialism." Grabber, ain't it?

As far as I know, it was coined by Deepak Chopra. He defines "superstition" as a fear or belief contrary to natural law.

In simpler times, most of us "knew" that visible reality was just a sort of pale reflection of a deeper or higher reality. (See Plato.) Now, science--in the form of quantum physics--is catching up.

We now know, for instance, that atoms are mostly empty space.

And string theory--which has alot of people uncomfortable, but is the best that ANYONE has been able to come up with--postulates at least TEN physical dimensions, and that everything is ultimately composed of vibrations.

http://www.jihadchat.com/index.php?showforum=6

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/holiday/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.unitedamericancommittee.org/

http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.activistchat.com

http://islam-watch.org/CommunityServer/forums/default.aspx

http://islam-watch.org


http://www.masada2000.org/islam.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

http://www.islam-watch.org/

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

http://tinyurl.com/23porv

http://www.atcoalition.net/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/6-Mein%20Kampf_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/moslem.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.php

http://www.factsandlogic.org

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/zakirnaik/zakicaptured.gif

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/toc.html

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/quotes1.html#terrorism

http://www.pmw.org.il/

http://tinyurl.com/ydc9qj




According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm

---------

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5197

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5237

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5258


"Modern Liberals, With Some Exceptions, Are Fascists. They Preach Peace At The Expense Of Liberty, Diversity At The Expense Of Common Sense, Equality At The Expense Of Fairness And Choice At The Expense Of Life. They Are The First To Speak About Rights, Yet They Seek To Deny You Yours If You Disagree With Them. They Vociferate The Importance Of Free Speech, Yet Do Everything In Their Power To Stifle Yours. They Demonize The Very System Which Allows Them The Freedom To Criticize In The First Place, And They Are The Last People In Line When It Comes To Defending The One Country On Earth That Would Ever Tolerate Their Hypocrisy. They Are Divisive, Immoral And Utterly Incapable Of Understanding Why Everything I Just Wrote Is The Truth." - Edward L. Daley



"Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole." - Thomas Sowell

“Some of the most vocal critics of the way things are being done are people who have done nothing themselves, and whose only contributions to society are their complaints and moral exhibitionism.” – Thomas Sowell

“A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.” – G. Gordon Liddy

------------------

AF--I LOVE your way with words. You sound almost like a reincarnation of mizled--high praise indeed.


How can you be sure she wasn't reincarnated from ME? I believe I was here first. You might want to consult the Oracle on that...
:o

The only common denominator I can testify to is that we both have breasts, and a beaver. Besides, she's one of the Popular Kids, while I am one of those Virtual Unknowns.

Arms, while my knowledge of string theory is horribly scattered, at best - I do look forward to a day when quantum physics sheds more light on the stuff you and I disagree on.

Some of the most vocal critics of the way things are being done are people who have done nothing themselves, and whose only contributions to society are their complaints and moral exhibitionism.” – Thomas Sowell

That's a really fancy way of saying "if you can't do it better, shut up". Wonder if I too can reword something mudane and seem really wise as a result

I do wonder, when did it become a bad thing to tell someone he's doing a shit job even if you're not better. You're not the one doing it and claiming it's fine