I got in a heated debate in another thread, accidentally hijacking it. The US government was not built on the bible. That is just another heaping pile of bullshit shoveled from the right to justify establishing a theocracy. Is it a coincidence that universal human morals that appear in the bible as well as any other culture just happens to end up in our laws? Believe it or not most of the founding fathers were deists Madison, Mason and Jefferson for example. There are numerous accounts of these three men detesting Christianity, and all of them were strongly in favor of the separation of church and state. Jefferson one night actually sat down and cut out all the miraculous bullshit out of the bible. Look it up, its called the Jefferson Bible. These three men were the architects of the most important documents in American history. Theres the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. Actually the US government was founded on the works of influential Enlightenment era Philosophers such as John Lock. Who started the bullshit that America was formed a Christian nation? I would put these people in the revisionist category with holocaust deniers.

quote:Originally posted by inuteroteen:

I got in a heated debate in another thread, accidentally hijacking it. The US government was not built on the bible. That is just another heaping pile of bullshit shoveled from the right to justify establishing a theocracy. Is it a coincidence that universal human morals that appear in the bible as well as any other culture just happens to end up in our laws? Believe it or not most of the founding fathers were deists Madison, Mason and Jefferson for example. There are numerous accounts of these three men detesting Christianity, and all of them were strongly in favor of the separation of church and state. Jefferson one night actually sat down and cut out all the miraculous bullshit out of the bible. Look it up, its called the Jefferson Bible. These three men were the architects of the most important documents in American history. Theres the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. Actually the US government was founded on the works of influential Enlightenment era Philosophers such as John Lock. Who started the bullshit that America was formed a Christian nation? I would put these people in the revisionist category with holocaust deniers.

The US Government is slightly based on the bible. Consider the issue of gay marriage. The sole opposition to it is religious and thus the US Government is opposed to it at the moment. In addition several nonviolent crimes, such as prostitution and polygamy all carry various repercussions often resulting in jail time. Once again the only source of public opposition to this is the religious dogma in the bible.

The founding fathers based the government on Christianity because it's the best way to control the population and to prevent anarchy. What better way to control your population than if they consider murder, adultery, stealing, and lying wrong?

Sure, some christianity filters in through in the representative process. But the government was not founded on it.

The government isn't supposed to be, but you can be sure there arem and have been plenty of people doing their best to get their shit religion as much into politics as possible.

Puffball Mgruff:

You said: "he founding fathers based the government on Christianity because it's the best way to control the population and to prevent anarchy. What better way to control your population than if they consider murder, adultery, stealing, and lying wrong?"

How does having a government based on moral values like that make it relevant to Christianity. Those values are common to a lot of religions, and even to those who are not religious. While moral values are a form of control, that doesn't automatically make them some evil tool of religion.

Iehovah, I hope I'm wrong too.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

The bible is defined through our values of the current age.

Three hundred years ago they still had the same book.

What the fuck is wrong with morality?

quote:Originally posted by Bazzle:

What the fuck is wrong with morality?

Theres something wrong with it when people forget that they are essentially universal and think that they only have the right answer.

quote:Originally posted by inuteroteen:

I got in a heated debate in another thread, accidentally hijacking it. The US government was not built on the bible. That is just another heaping pile of bullshit shoveled from the right to justify establishing a theocracy. Is it a coincidence that universal human morals that appear in the bible as well as any other culture just happens to end up in our laws? Believe it or not most of the founding fathers were deists Madison, Mason and Jefferson for example. There are numerous accounts of these three men detesting Christianity, and all of them were strongly in favor of the separation of church and state. Jefferson one night actually sat down and cut out all the miraculous bullshit out of the bible. Look it up, its called the Jefferson Bible. These three men were the architects of the most important documents in American history. Theres the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. Actually the US government was founded on the works of influential Enlightenment era Philosophers such as John Lock. Who started the bullshit that America was formed a Christian nation? I would put these people in the revisionist category with holocaust deniers.

OMG dude, how many times do i need to say this? conspiracy theorys can never be taking as valid!

No they were not in favor of serperation of church and state you moron! seperation of church and state came way after! it was created so that when the Catholics came over wouldnt take over the gov. again!

This is a Christian country and the founding documents are based on the traditions and rules of the bible period!

So seperation of church and state aint what it appears to be! its like reperations people get that mixed up too!

im trying to be nice here but please dont try and take our country away from us and turn it to filth filled with drugs and prostitutes all over!

I don't think you realize how incredibly anti-christian many of the founding fathers were.

http://www.atheistalliance.org/library/morris-founding_fathers.php

Wow, this is basic american history 101 guys. The US gov't was based on the enlightenment, Adam Smith and most importantly Classical Liberalism.

i thought a lot of law etc was based on what

Aristotle said?

I think the founding fathers based the country on the idea of a god. A higher power. The idea being that the government gets its right to enforce certain laws because no one can say that they are wrong to do so. That morality isn't relative.

St Paul said the authority of the state is legit and should be obeyed cos all authority comes from god. learnt it in school

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

OMG dude, how many times do i need to say this? conspiracy theorys can never be taking as valid!

No they were not in favor of serperation of church and state you moron! seperation of church and state came way after! it was created so that when the Catholics came over wouldnt take over the gov. again!

This is a Christian country and the founding documents are based on the traditions and rules of the bible period!

So seperation of church and state aint what it appears to be! its like reperations people get that mixed up too!

im trying to be nice here but please dont try and take our country away from us and turn it to filth filled with drugs and prostitutes all over!

I would like to know where you get your info. It is very simple and easy to find out where the US government came from. The founding fathers being deist isn't a conspiracy theory. I can even back up what I have said with direct quotes from the men themselves! Your revisionist bullshit just doesn't cut it.

I have been consistent the whole time. These three men are probably the most influential founding fathers. They authored The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"

James Madison

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

"Whereas several oppressive Acts of Parliament respecting Religion have been formerly enacted, and Doubts have arisen and may hereafter arise whether the same are in Force within this Common-Wealth or not, for Prevention whereof Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the Common-Wealth of Virginia, and it is hereby enacted by the Authority of the same, That all and every Act or Statute either of the Parliament of England, or of Great Britain, by whatsoever Title known or distinguished, which renders criminal the maintaining of any Opinions in Matters of Religion, forbearing to repair to Church, or the exercising any Mode of worship whatsoever, or which prescribes punishments for the same, shall henceforth be of no Validity or Force within this Common-Wealth." -- Amendment to the Bill Exempting Dissenters from Contributions to the Established Church (Virginia), 5 Dec. 1776

quote:Originally posted by inuteroteen:

I would like to know where you get your info. It is very simple and easy to find out where the US government came from. The founding fathers being deist isn't a conspiracy theory. I can even back up what I have said with direct quotes from the men themselves! Your revisionist bullshit just doesn't cut it.

I have been consistent the whole time. These three men are probably the most influential founding fathers. They authored The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights.

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"

James Madison

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

"Whereas several oppressive Acts of Parliament respecting Religion have been formerly enacted, and Doubts have arisen and may hereafter arise whether the same are in Force within this Common-Wealth or not, for Prevention whereof Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the Common-Wealth of Virginia, and it is hereby enacted by the Authority of the same, That all and every Act or Statute either of the Parliament of England, or of Great Britain, by whatsoever Title known or distinguished, which renders criminal the maintaining of any Opinions in Matters of Religion, forbearing to repair to Church, or the exercising any Mode of worship whatsoever, or which prescribes punishments for the same, shall henceforth be of no Validity or Force within this Common-Wealth." -- Amendment to the Bill Exempting Dissenters from Contributions to the Established Church (Virginia), 5 Dec. 1776

Source? who do you think, Michael SAvage, Bill Oreily, Sean Hanitty, and history!

all the quotes are against religous persecution by the Catholics towards the Protestants which was what they were escaping to come here in the first place you liberal bastards!!!

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

Source? who do you think, Michael SAvage, Bill Oreily, Sean Hanitty, and history!

all the quotes are against religous persecution by the Catholics towards the Protestants which was what they were escaping to come here in the first place you liberal bastards!!!

Dipshit, do you even understand what a credible source is or the religious climate during this time? The religious refugees came to America to escape the state established Anglican Church. This included Puritans, which includes Baptists, Calvinists, Quakers, Presbyterians, and more. The catholics came over too, but they were more localized in areas such as Maryland. Lord Baltimore established Maryland to be a Catholic safe haven. If anything Englishmen feared the growth of the Catholic Church. The largest scare in England was perpetuated by Titus Oates during the Stuart restoration. They feared that James II could possibly be Catholic and make England a Catholic country again. This was prevented when William and Mary took over during the Glorious Revolution.

The founding fathers saw what happened in England Henry VIII onward. They understood no good could come from a government closely tied to religion.

Now shut the fuck up and stop posting retarded Republican mouthpiece pundits to support your point. I think Jefferson, Mason, and Madison had a better idea of what they believed than these right wing wind bags.

The history in my argument is solid, and you are a dumbass (Or Someone getting their kicks satirizing the retarded side of our country) Does anyone here independently vouch for the credibility of the history listed here?

quote:Originally posted by inuteroteen:

Dipshit, do you even understand what a credible source is or the religious climate during this time? The religious refugees came to America to escape the state established Anglican Church. This included Puritans, which includes Baptists, Calvinists, Quakers, Presbyterians, and more. The catholics came over too, but they were more localized in areas such as Maryland. Lord Baltimore established Maryland to be a Catholic safe haven. If anything Englishmen feared the growth of the Catholic Church. The largest scare in England was perpetuated by Titus Oates during the Stuart restoration. They feared that James II could possibly be Catholic and make England a Catholic country again. This was prevented when William and Mary took over during the Glorious Revolution.

The founding fathers saw what happened in England Henry VIII onward. They understood no good could come from a government closely tied to religion.

Now shut the fuck up and stop posting retarded Republican mouthpiece pundits to support your point. I think Jefferson, Mason, and Madison had a better idea of what they believed than these right wing wind bags.

The history in my argument is solid, and you are a dumbass (Or Someone getting their kicks satirizing the retarded side of our country) Does anyone here independently vouch for the credibility of the history listed here?

sigh** catholics wernt the majority! we estrablished the law so religous persecution and the catholics ruling wouldnt happen!

I believe that inutero has hit the nail on the head. Masta is a delusional idiot. Get your historical facts straight, Masta, before you try to make a point.

quote:Originally posted by kurdt318:

I don't think you realize how incredibly anti-christian many of the founding fathers were.



quote:

Wow, this is basic american history 101 guys. The US gov't was based on the enlightenment, Adam Smith and most importantly Classical Liberalism.

QFT X 2

They're allowed to change historical facts to suit the position of their faith, though - remember? It's their ultimate contingency plan, when all else fails.

Didn't really happen that way? It does now!

Insert Lord : <Here>.

There, now it looks more legitimate. Now we can take over the country!



http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)





[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 03-29-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

sigh** catholics wernt the majority! we estrablished the law so religous persecution and the catholics ruling wouldnt happen!

Catholics weren't the majority, there wasn't much fear of catholics in America.

Has ANYONE here heard of classical liberalism or the scottish enlightenment?!? The bible's influence is a moot point and was more symbolic than anything; sort of like putting your hand on the bible in a courtroom.

[This message has been edited by KikoSanchez (edited 03-29-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by inuteroteen:

Catholics weren't the majority, there wasn't much fear of catholics in America.

Yes they were the protestants were bieng persacuted by the catholics that what the whole "seperation of church and state was about"! so they didnt take over! and yes there was the catholics spread fear to everyone and highly controlled the gov.! so your wrong and stop trying to take this country away from us Christians!

US Treaty with Tripoli, Article 11

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

stop trying to take this country away from us Christians!

Why? "You Christians" took it from the native americans. You slaughtered a great many of them, because they were "savages" who didn't believe in your Christian God.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

US Treaty with Tripoli, Article 11

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

Wonderful point, Q - but he dismisses anything you say to the contrary with:

You're just a conspiracy theorist who can't be trusted!

But a wonderful point, nonetheless.

*triple post*

Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular (http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html)

quote:Originally posted by Pinball Mgruff:

The founding fathers based the government on Christianity because

the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

- US Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

Many, perhaps even most, of the founding fathers ratified the damned thing.