Over the years, I’ve heard many people use two arguments which they believe prove the existence of some kind of creator (I even found myself using them against stuck-up atheists): a fine-tuned universe and divine proportion. They aren’t reasons which can be refuted in a couple of sentences, I don’t really know whether I agree with them, I've sometimes used them to play devil's advocate, and I thought I’d share them.

Two proofs for the existence of a God:

First of all, when I say God, I’m not talking about the Christian God, or Allah, or Brahman, or Satnam, or any gods described in any religions. I’m not talking about gods which have been given anthropomorphic characteristics. I’m not talking about a God which will send you to hell if you live a bad life and will send you to paradise if you live a good life. I’m not talking about a god who cares whether or not you visit some establishment once a week and recite prayers. I’m not talking about a God who created the universe in seven days and created humans in the process. I’m not talking about a God that answers prayers and directly interferes with daily activities of humans. I’m simply talking about some kind of higher, more intelligent force/being which is responsible for the creation of the universe and is indirectly responsible for the events which followed thereafter.

I won’t be using any religious texts, personal experiences, or the experiences of others as evidence. I will stick solely to science. I don’t necessarily completely agree with everything I post but this has been stronger evidence for the existence of a God which I’ve come across. I trust the sources I used were accurate and I’m not a science person either so don’t throw a fit if I’ve made a mistake, just say so.

Fine Tuning of the Universe

1 – The ratio of the number of protons to electrons must equal exactly to one to one to better than one part in 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000, otherwise electromagnetic forces would be disrupted in some way and no stars, planets, or galaxies would ever be able to exist in the history of the universe. Before you say it’s only a coincidence, read this:

“One part in 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles. Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billion of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000."

2 – The mass of the (observable) universe is approximately 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 kg. Increasing the mass by only one part would cause the Big Crunch to occur, leading to the collapse and destruction of the universe. Could there be something behind this, keeping it “in place”?

Divine Proportion

I don’t know how many have heard of Divine Proportion, or the Golden Number. Well, it’s a number (1.618…..) which is said to be found in many areas of life and unites things and people.

For example, each section of your index finger, from the tip to the base of the wrist, is longer than the preceding one by 1.618. Is it a coincidence that this works for everybody?

Take your body’s height and divide it by the distance from your belly button to the bottom of your feet and it will always equal 1.618. You think its just chance this is true for every single human?

Take the length from your shoulder to your fingertip and divide it by length from your elbow to your fingertip. It will always equal 1.681.

The average of the mean orbital distances of each successive planet in relation to the one before it (where Mercury = 1) equals 1.618.

The DNA molecule measures 34 angstroms by 21 angstroms. The ratio of these two numbers is approximately 1.618.

There are other examples like this involving the face and how it is aligned and how architects and artists used this number to improve balance and beauty in their works.

How do you explain something like this?

________________________________

More info on:

Golden Number (http://goldennumber.net/life.htm)

Golden Number (http://evolutionoftruth.com/goldensection/index.htm)

Golden Number (http://evolutionoftruth.com/)

Fine Tuned Universe (http://tinyurl.com/22ecx6)

Fined Tuned Universe/Design (http://godandscience.org/evolution/index.html)

Interested in your opinions, thoughts, and rebuttals.

[This message has been edited by Drox (edited 03-29-2007).]

I really liked that post, and I've also heard of the "Golden Number" theory before. I thought that was cool man, although I'm still not sure if there really is a higher power. You do make a lot of good points, but all they are is mathematical probability.

Your first arguement: That statement is very true. I also don't want this to sound like I'm saying it's a coincidence, because it very well isn't. Maybe the reason as to why it's like that, is because of that's the only way that things could work in our universe.

My arguement just sounds dumb coming from me.



Whatever.

Cool post anyway OP, +1.

Neither of those prove God

That shows a force is holding the universe together.

Fine Tuning of the Universe:

You can only say that of life as we know it today. That's it. That ignores the very distinct possibility that there can exist other forms of life (i.e. non-carbon based life forms) in environments that might seem extreme or uninhabitable to us.

If the universe had developed another way (lets say Nitrogen based life forms) I bet they would be saying exactly what you're saying. That doesn't prove a god in the least; it proves how self-centered we are.

Divine Proportion:

1. If you're going to include numbers that are "approximately" to the golden ration, then you can say that of virtually any number you can imagine! "Approximately" means not the same number.

2. The square-root of the golden ratio appears twice as much as the golden ratio itself! If were going by the number of times a number appears, then √(1.61803...) has the golden ratio beat, not to mention the the numbers 1, 2, 3...

Well, it was certainly an interesting read, and I respect how you did not base this on a specific god, especially one who has been given anthropomorphic characteristics, however, I do not believe that it proves anything. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Ahhh the talkorigins archive is my best friend

Fine Tuned?

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI301.html

The divine proportion?

ok here you almost have an argument, but you make one simple mistake. You lie. "people.

For example, each section of your index finger, from the tip to the base of the wrist, is longer than the preceding one by 1.618. Is it a coincidence that this works for everybody?" Not true. Take a ruler and measure it. What? Not 1.618? Thought so

"Take the length from your shoulder to your fingertip and divide it by length from your elbow to your fingertip. It will always equal 1.681." once again, just measured it, not 1.618 or 1.681. I am not sure about the orbital distances but it's probably a lie too. Dna? Did you even look at the DNA? The human DNA molecule is 1.5-3 METERS long. Get the fuck out with your Armstrongs. Faces? Did you see people's faces? They are all different, eyes, nose, mouth, lips, skull etc... It is silly to say that a face contains the golden number.

That's how you explain it all

You might as well use the banana argument



[This message has been edited by Lamabot (edited 03-29-2007).]

e^((pi)*i)+1=0 therefor god exists.

I'm pretty sure the equation is right.

You need to read "The Goldilocks Enigma" By Paul Davies.

quote:Originally posted by PoPcOrN PeOpLe:

e^((pi)*i)+1=0 therefor god exists.

I'm pretty sure the equation is right.

I googled that but got nothing about it being proof of God. :-S

Interesting theory I suppose. Its nice to hear a nonreligious theory for god. But..I agree with Rust and Lamabot

Divine Proportion and the "golden number" is actually not as prevalent as people would like to believe in nature.

Also....

If nature by natural selection and evolution finds something that "works" it seems to appear in a lot of things.....see - respiration, photosynthesis and so on and so on.

The problem with the 'probability' argument is that is completely defeats itself from the beginning. Yes, the universe's existence is mathematically amazing, but it is impossible to rationalize that it must be the work of some higher being, seeing as how such a being's existence would fly in the face of literally everything we have insofar learned of our world.

"1 – The ratio of the number of protons to electrons must equal exactly to one to one to better than one part in 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000, otherwise electromagnetic forces would be disrupted in some way and no stars, planets, or galaxies would ever be able to exist in the history of the universe. Before you say it’s only a coincidence, read this:"

it's not a coincidence. it had to happen this way. if it didn't, then the universe wouldn't work. that is like looking at someone winning the lotto and saying the 6-million to one chance is proof they knew the numbers. it's reverse logic, and proves sweet fuck all.

as with all your arguments. just because improbabe stuff happens does not mean it was controlled. the universe is a wild fluke, the exception to the rule.

the odds of me sitting here and billions and billions to one. every choice i have made in my life effects what i am doing now, and every choice could have gone the other way, and thats not even counting quantum shit. but i am. it proves nothing and is a fucking pathetic attempt to prove your bullshit.

also, your golden number idea is meaningless. i could think of many things that have ratios that equal 1.945, a completely made up number.

your DNA example is flawed, the molecule has no fixed shape or size, the helix stretches and bends in infinite conformations.

the orbit one is wrong. most planets have eliptical orbits and two even cross over. it's just completely fucking wrong.



your a fucking idiot, apart from false reasoning, your facts are completely fucking wrong.

i think its a paradox. SOMETHING has to exist, god or no god and that paradoxical situation is whats responsible for the probability

I actually like your post alot... but...

quote:Originally posted by Drox:

Fine Tuning of the Universe

1 – The ratio of the number of protons to electrons must equal exactly to one to one to better than one part in...

...dies upon rewrite. "The net charge is equal to zero," e.g., physics is self-consistent with regard to conservation of charge.

...it'd be if there was a sizeable imbalance that we'd have to ask ourselves how this came to be.

You could have at least used scientific notation. I didn't feel like actually counting every set of "0"s.

". . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for."

As quoted in Richard Dawkins' Eulogy for Douglas Adams

We can assume that a invisible sky daddy made everything like it is and be happy with that. OR we can examine the world around us and gain a further understanding the universe and better our selves with the information gained.

None of this proves a creator. But I still liked your post, the Divine proportion has always caught me as interesting.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

". . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for."

As quoted in Richard Dawkins' Eulogy for Douglas Adams

Now that's what I'm screaming ^

Im god, shut the fuk up.

All these arguments are pointless. Nothing can be proven or disproven. Pick whatever the fuck floats your boat.

You didn't prove God. You just proved that the universe exists and...I hate to burst your bubble but...duh...

...It's already accepted that everything worked out the way it did due to an impossibly rare sequence of events. But I guess when you have an infinite number of time to do that, it kinda happens. In a way, we all won the lottery...

Mike

quote:Originally posted by DieSmokin:

All these arguments are pointless. Nothing can be proven or disproven. Pick whatever the fuck floats your boat.

QFFT, after reading this thread i've given up trying to figure out this kind of crap

Suppose,

prose and tought are human, God's creation, as it is written, then we are merely preparing like animals for new life.

One form over the other, "so to speak".

However, God being defined is included in phsyical matter.



Hey presto, you have

CONTEST



http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

Drox

I strongly disagree with the folling -



I won’t be using any religious texts, personal experiences, or the experiences of others as evidence. I will stick solely to science. I don’t necessarily completely agree with everything I post but this has been stronger evidence for the existence of a God which I’ve come across.

Couple points:

-I just wanna point out that I don't accept those proofs as absolute proof for a God. They are just items I've had difficulty refuting and I wanted to see what others had to say about them.

-Painkiller8350, I didn't use scientific notation because by putting in all the zeroes, you get to see what a large number it really is (though I'm sure you would've known anyway).

-Lou Reed, the reason I didn't want to use religious texts was because I'd get showered with responses about contradictions, them being written by man, having no divine influence, etc. and that's not the kind of discussion I was looking for. And I don't think personal experiences would be sufficient proof for a god.

And after some really insightful posts, I've come to conclude that fine tuning and the golden number (along with pretty much everything else) doesn't prove the existence of a god. People just make the assumption that a god exists because of certain things they can't explain, or are unexplainable at the moment.