A religion is a good thing to have. It gives many people a good nights sleep and keeps many more from going crazy (or does it...). Anyways, just back out of this topic if you want to remain a follower of the book.

I only say this when a super christain won't get off my back about being atheist so please do the same. Its just wrong taking someone's faith away when they didn't ask for it.

According to the good book here are some facts about God.

God is merciful

God is just

God is almighty

God is all knowing

God created heaven, the earth, hell, animals, man, etc.

Now, there are a few different reasons people go to hell but thats beside the point. I'm not going to argue why people go to hell. What is important is that people go to hell.

From what I understand hell is not the best place to be. You are constantly suffering. A type of suffering you could not imagine. You are there for the rest of time.

All of this means that God creates man. And since God knows all, God creates man knowing man's fate. Which means that God knowingly creates men that will only live for less than 100 years, yet spend an eternity in hell. That's just mean.

You can't argue with this. God knows who goes to hell. God makes the people who go to hell anyways. I personally would rather not exist than go to hell.

I'm not going to go into why God should be held accountable for peoples sins and some other things wrong with this faith.

And before all of you hardline christains begin to post why I am wrong, just think about it for a week or two. Just think about it.

Note: All I am saying is that there is not a christain god.

In my opinion it is utterly pointless to attempt to discredit or disprove god by trying to judge his actions or assess his motivations.

Why are you reasoning that god wouldn't have done something because "that's just mean"

God is simply an idea, and if you're going to reject that idea then you should do so for real reasons.

I reject god because his existance is NOT supported by any known evidence and his existance would violate several known universal laws. That's a real reason.

I do not reject god because I do not believe he would do something so HORRIBLE as to send us all to hell......

...He doesn't exist.....Why would he be doing ANYTHING?

To start arguing about his reasoning, His motives, His moral stance is to accept that he exists for the sake of the argument.

Otherwise you're assuming that god is false based on information about him which must then also be false. God is all knowing? Well if he doesn't exist then he isn't and to use it as a reason NOT to believe in god is a circular path.

See what i'm getting at here?

Forget all that bullshit. Reject god because it's a crackpot half-brained relic of our dark ages and everything that we know and are still learning points to our existance in this universe as being a random occurance.

Not because he can't create a rock so heavy that he himself could not lift it. That's not an argument.

I guess you misunderstood the very last sentence. The point post was not to prove, with facts, that there isn't a god. The point was to discredit the christain faith by using simple logic. The religion just has too many flaws.

I find it far more effective to prove to a jesus-freak that their faith is flawed, therefore wrong, than telling them there isn't a god.

quote:Originally posted by redjoker:

A religion is a good thing to have. It gives many people a good nights sleep and keeps many more from going crazy (or does it...). Anyways, just back out of this topic if you want to remain a follower of the book.

I only say this when a super christain won't get off my back about being atheist so please do the same. Its just wrong taking someone's faith away when they didn't ask for it.

According to the good book here are some facts about God.

God is merciful

God is just

God is almighty

God is all knowing

God created heaven, the earth, hell, animals, man, etc.

Now, there are a few different reasons people go to hell but thats beside the point. I'm not going to argue why people go to hell. What is important is that people go to hell.

From what I understand hell is not the best place to be. You are constantly suffering. A type of suffering you could not imagine. You are there for the rest of time.

All of this means that God creates man. And since God knows all, God creates man knowing man's fate. Which means that God knowingly creates men that will only live for less than 100 years, yet spend an eternity in hell. That's just mean.

You can't argue with this. God knows who goes to hell. God makes the people who go to hell anyways. I personally would rather not exist than go to hell.

I'm not going to go into why God should be held accountable for peoples sins and some other things wrong with this faith.

And before all of you hardline christains begin to post why I am wrong, just think about it for a week or two. Just think about it.

Note: All I am saying is that there is not a christain god.

Completely wrong and i have heard this arguement millions of times! Nothing new here!

God gave us freewill, we do what we want, its our choice, do not blame God for your wrong doings! He dont make people just so they can go to hell, thats thier decision!



[This message has been edited by Masta Thief (edited 03-30-2007).]

god must not have conscious, or he must be damn good at blocking it out. why would you create all these lives in which people are sent to an eternity of suffering all to know that it was your fault. maybe hes just one sick fuck.

Don't give me that free will bullshit. How can there be free will if God (supposing that he exists) is the puppet master pulling all of the strings. Where is the free will when you know the future and you're the one who created it? We make all of our actions based on influences. Thats just a fact. If God is the one who makes everything happen then God is the one who shapes you into the person you are by creating the situations in your life. So God, being all knowing, knows exactly how you will respond to every situation he/she/it puts you in. This is just another hole. God made a murder happen becuase he presented the situation knowing how all concerned parties would act. And then sent the killer to hell for that and other reasons. The whole while God shaped this persons life to be exactly the way he was, and God created this person knowing that this would happen, knowing that there would be no alternative. Free will is a joke according the rules of christianity. Either that or God isn't powerful enough to micromanage. But then, he wouldn't be God now would he? If you think there is free will then you must have the mind of child. I don't know how much more clear I can make this.

QUOTE Originally posted by redjoker:

Don't give me that free will bullshit.

Hi redjoker,

It's been pointed out to me that i should ask more questions. So i'm gonna try with you.

First off, are you saying that there is no free will at all? (hint: watch out how you answer, because both the negative and the affirmative kinda lock you in)

Second, i would like to ask you where you got your OP arguement.... so, where did you get your arguement? (what i'm asking here is, who is the author of the particular version of the deductive problem of evil (PoE) that you are using?.... i'm just wondering how recent the version. Perhaps there have been some recent-- 2000-2007-- challenges to Plantinga's freewill defense that i'm not aware of.)



How can there be free will if God (supposing that he exists) is the puppet master pulling all of the strings.

So you are saying that you do not think that you have the ability to choose things?... That everything that you do, is, in someway, pre-destined?... if that is the case, then there really is not a purpose to this discussion, right?



Where is the free will when you know the future and you're the one who created it?

Do you think it's possible that God (in your words, "supposing that he exists") would be able to allow us some amount of free will while at the same time, know the outcome of our choices?

We make all of our actions based on influences. Thats just a fact.

What influences are YOU referring to?

If God is the one who makes everything happen then God is the one who shapes you into the person you are by creating the situations in your life.

So God, being all knowing, knows exactly how you will respond to every situation he/she/it puts you in.

Fair enough for now.

This is just another hole. God made a murder happen becuase he presented the situation knowing how all concerned parties would act. And then sent the killer to hell for that and other reasons.

How do you know that the killer 'is/was/will be' sent to Hell? Do you happen to be privy to information about that person's fate? What are you basing this assertion on?

There is a bigger problem with this paragraph.. and it is the crux of your thread.

You said, "God made a murder happen becuase he presented the situation knowing how all concerned parties would act."

God created us with some amount of free will (a term i recently heard is 'created significantly free'). That means, even though He knew what all actions would be, the free will part in us, is what allows us to do right or wrong, by our own volition.



The whole while God shaped this persons life to be exactly the way he was, and God created this person knowing that this would happen, knowing that there would be no alternative.

I'm not sure that i understand you here. Would you mind explaining or expanding? (i understand the whole "if God knows you will chose A rather than B, you can't not chose A" and i agree with it. But that doesnt follow how i understand the rest of your post... in other words, God's omniscience does not prove that you have no free will. All it proves it that you have chosen what God knew that you would chose.)



Free will is a joke according the rules of christianity.

Which rules are you meaning?

Within Christianity, there are a few differing doctrines concerning free will and predestination. Some think that there is absolutely no free will. Others think that we have free will beyond the "significantly free". And still others think that there is some balance between the extremes. Basically, i fall closest to the latter. (i think the Bible-- God's Word-- teaches both.)

Either that or God isn't powerful enough to micromanage.

This says nothing.



Let's say that you have a string of Christmas lights and all but one bulb works.

Your power and knowlege to change the light bulb says nothing about you actually changing it... and the fact that you havent fixed it says nothing about your knowlege and power.

However, in the deductive PoE, the claim is also that God is omni-benevolet, and that an omni-benevolent God would want to get rid of all evils ....and if He knows about evil and has the power to rid evil, then He would....

but that is making the assumption that that is the only thing that God wants-- that He has no other plan or purpose (for evil).

One of the arguements against the deductive PoE goes on to say that He will when the appointed time comes... and although i agree with this continuation of that arguement, i think that it is not effectively strong in terms of apologetics, since it begs the question of one part of the original theistic set. i.e. All Knowing.

But then, he wouldn't be God now would he?

Agreed.

If you think there is free will then you must have the mind of child. I don't know how much more clear I can make this.

redjoker, please look carefully at your statement here, and ask yourself the question, "did i use a free will choice to make this post?"

The fact that you know that you dont know a clearer way to state your case, implies that if you did know a better way, you would choose it.

Aside from that, your accusation of a "childlike mind" is either pejorative or ignorant of the arguements given by philosophers on both sides of the debate.

Just so you know, i'm not offended by the statement. I'm just trying to point out that you might be being self contradictory.

God Bless,

johnny

Redjoker:

You said: "A religion is a good thing to have. It gives many people a good nights sleep and keeps many more from going crazy (or does it...). Anyways, just back out of this topic if you want to remain a follower of the book."

One of the few things as an arrogant bible-thumper who insists you're going to Hell if you don't follow the big G is an arrogant atheist who considers his personal insight so amazingly profound that it can destroy any bible-thumper's faith on the spot. Talk about putting arrogance and stupidity on a pedestal.

quote:Originally posted by Iehovah:

Redjoker:

You said: "A religion is a good thing to have. It gives many people a good nights sleep and keeps many more from going crazy (or does it...). Anyways, just back out of this topic if you want to remain a follower of the book."

One of the few things as an arrogant bible-thumper who insists you're going to Hell if you don't follow the big G is an arrogant atheist who considers his personal insight so amazingly profound that it can destroy any bible-thumper's faith on the spot. Talk about putting arrogance and stupidity on a pedestal.

Well first off your a dumbass for assuming that I think this argument will take someones faith away instantly or that anyone cares what your opinions are. I never said that. Usually it takes a few months to really take effect. They'll go to church for a few more sundays. Skip a few. Not show up for a month. Show up only on christmas and easter, and then eventually say they don't believe.

To xtreem5150ahm:

I am not using someone else's theories or writings for this argument. I'm just using simple logic to prove that a lot of the christian beliefs contradict each other.

Maybe I'm wrong but I believe free will is the ability to change your destiny. I am saying that if the christian god did exist there couldn't be free will since all of your actions are predetermined. You can't have some free will. You either do have free will or you don't have free will.

The influences I am referring to are everything that happens to us in our lives.

I said that the killer was sent to hell for the murder AND other reasons. I know that he could have asked for forgiveness and such but I guess I should have clarified that he fucked up some more in his life. I just named an evil act that could send you to hell. Just remember that just becuase you have other options doesn't mean that you have free will. Having other options and being able to choice either one is free will. If your destiny is already chosen then you can't very well choose any option other than the one predetermined. This would apply to every action in your life.

Anyways enough of the free will argument that has been going on for centuries. The whole point of this argument, which everyone seems to have missed, is that

God

creates

evil

and then the punishes it like a motherfucker. So now we could argue whether or not God is a sadist.

Edit: thanks for being so inquisitive

[This message has been edited by redjoker (edited 03-31-2007).]

Redjoker:

You said:

"Well first off your a dumbass for assuming that I think this argument will take someones faith away instantly..."

Consider me corrected on the "instantly" part. I read more into it than was there.

"or that anyone cares what your opinions are."

Congrats on bringing up something completely irrelevant. Not to mention untrue, given that it pissed you off enough to make you insult me.

"Usually it takes a few months to really take effect. They'll go to church for a few more sundays. Skip a few. Not show up for a month. Show up only on christmas and easter, and then eventually say they don't believe."

Remember that point I made about putting arrogance and stupidity on a pedestal? Yeah, it applies even if you don't think it will happen instantly. This isn't a new set of points you've brought up, or even particularly clever. While I may agree with every single one of them, that does not change the fact that rehashing them isn't going to destroy faith. Give faith (especially blind faith) credit where it's due... it's amazingly resilient and has the capability of ignoring every single one of your arguments, no matter how good they are.

It reeks of arrogance to claim that your insight is profound enough to change that.

Good morning redjoker,

QUOTE Originally posted by redjoker:

I am not using someone else's theories or writings for this argument. I'm just using simple logic to prove that a lot of the christian beliefs contradict each other.

Fair enough, you came to this conclusion on your own.

As has been pointed out a couple of times in this thread, this is not a new arguement. If it is true that you came to it on your own, then i'll try not to assume too much.

There have been at least two major approaches to the PoE; theodicy and defense.

IIRC, St. Augustine used a theodicy while Alvin Plantinga uses the Free Will Defense (i'll call it "F W D").

I'll try to give a watered down version of both. It will be watered down, not because i dont think you can handle the full versions, but because i'm no expert, and if i gave the full versions, i would have to copy them out of books. The book i'm currently reading devotes three chapters to the PoE Faith and Reason-Searching for a Rational Faith

Ronald H. Nash Chapters 13-15. Nash briefly covers Augustine's approach, but since he has covered it in another book, he doesnt go to much depth. Nash gives a watered down version of Plantinga's F.W.D. which is the main reason i bought that book, so i can understand the next book on my 'to read list', which is: God, Freedom, and Evil Alvin Plantinga. I've skimmed parts of it, but want to finish the former first.

Now, for the record, i had heard of the PoE long ago, but it wasnt until a few years ago (on Totse) that i saw the actual deductive PoE. I'm not exagerating when i say that it rocked my faith to the very core. There had been something in my life, not too long before that, that upon remembering, i prayed to God (paraphrased cuz i dont remember the exact prayer), "if this really is a major problem of the Christian Faith, AND IF You exists AND IF the Bible is Your Word, THEN You must have put some clues in Your Word about this. Please show me."

He did! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I dont think my defense on Totse amounted to much, to either side of the arguement. Those that believe, believe. Those that dont, dont.

At least, as far as i can tell (or for that matter, even want to know).

When i stumbled upon Ron and Al's books, i had to get them to see how close my defense was to that of actual scholars. So far, as i can see, i wasnt too far off.

One last thing before we begin, at least as far as i understand so far, a theodicy is basically a reason why God would permit evil. The Free Will Defense is basically saying that free will is a rational, logical possibility.

Maybe I'm wrong but I believe free will is the ability to change your destiny.

Here, i am speaking of the human POV...

Changing one's destiny is different than chosing one's destiny.

To change a destiny, one would have to know, necessarily, what the destiny is in the first place... from a human POV, this would be self-contradictary.

Chosing one's destiny is not necessarily knowing the outcome, but the destiny is contingent to choices made. (this is how i am using the term 'free will'... the ability to make choices that effect an outcome...especially, significant moral choices.)

I am saying that if the christian god did exist there couldn't be free will since all of your actions are predetermined.

Let's say that you have to work at the same time a big sporting event is happening. You want to see it, so you set the VCR. Someone at work tells you the final score before you watch it. You go home and watch the recorded game. Your knowlege of the outcome did not cause the outcome.

(i realize that this doesnt address the issue of an omniscient Creator, i'm just trying to show that knowlege can be separate from causation)

You can't have some free will. You either do have free will or you don't have free will.

How do you know that you can not have some free will?

Let's say that you want to go for a walk. I'm assuming that you have that ability.

Now let's say that you want to walk on the ceiling. Your desire is limited by gravity (actually, by the natural laws that God has established). Is walking on a ceiling impossible?... No. Flys do it quite often. Does that mean that flys are not affected by gravity? No.

So, by "some free will" i am saying that there are some choices that God allows.. but not all choices are allowed, just as some abilities are not allowed. (i'm not calling the fly on the ceiling a choice but an ability)

You and i can not chose to become greater than God... well, we can choose this (actually, that is basically what sin is.. doing our will over what God's Will is.), but the choice does not make us greater than God.. that is, we do not actually become greater than Eternal God.

The influences I am referring to are everything that happens to us in our lives.

This says nothing either way then, reguarding free will or predestination. It does, however, imply both.

I said that the killer was sent to hell for the murder AND other reasons. I know that he could have asked for forgiveness and such but I guess I should have clarified that he fucked up some more in his life.

Ok, as long as you realize that murder was not the reason, in itself, that condemned the man to Hell. It was the refusal of the free gift of Grace.

I just named an evil act that could send you to hell.

Again, fair enough.

I would like to point out that any sin is enough to condemn. Even one so small as a "tiny white lie" in order to not hurt someone else's feelings. A lie makes one a liar. A sin makes one a sinner (in need of Forgiveness).

Just remember that just becuase you have other options doesn't mean that you have free will. Having other options and being able to choice either one is free will.

I agree. Pretty hard to know for sure if you made a choice or if it was pre-determined, isnt it? All we can see before hand, is that there are options. After, we can see the outcome of the path taken, and only speculate what might have occurred if the other path had been followed.

If your destiny is already chosen then you can't very well choose any option other than the one predetermined. This would apply to every action in your life.

Here is why i asked, "First off, are you saying that there is no free will at all? (hint: watch out how you answer, because both the negative and the affirmative kinda lock you in)"

If you say "no, there is free will", then the ability to make choices also rests on the atheologian (you, in this case), thus making your point about the Christian Faith (Theistic Set and all), moot. If you have free will, then you can hardly argue that the Christian does not.

If you say "yes, there is no free will" then this also becomes moot, since everything is determined, either by God or by laws of Physics (kinda like a pool table, all cause and effect, which would bring us to another big subject, the Cosmological Arguement) or by some other process or first cause.

Although, i must say, your answer did a pretty good job of balancing on the fence.

Anyways enough of the free will argument that has been going on for centuries. The whole point of this argument, which everyone seems to have missed, is that

God

creates

evil

and then the punishes it like a motherfucker.

First of all, how you know evil exists?

I'm not saying that it does not exist, i'm just asking you, how you know.

Let me explain:

The presumption of evil implies a presumption of good. It then implies an objective moral law, in which to differentiate between good and evil. An objective moral law implies an absolute moral law Giver. If no moral law Giver then no moral law. If no moral law, then no objective good or evil.

So, by the atheologian's claim that the existance of evil is contrary to the Christian God, the atheologian is begging the question, "what evil?".

Just so you know, this fact has not been overlooked. And depending on the use of "theodicy" or "defense", does give slightly different answers. They both agree that ultimately God did create evil.

Theodicist's claim that God created evil for at least three reasons, one being the topic we're discussing, namely, free moral choice.

The FWD argues the possibility that those theodicies could and are, rational possibilities... but not necessarily the case or necessarily the complete case.

So now we could argue whether or not God is a sadist.

I'll save you the effort... In the theistic set that YOU use, you describe God to be "merciful and just". This would not only be begging the question of "merciful and just" but also of truth.

Edit: thanks for being so inquisitive

Actually, i wasnt really being inquisitive. I had asked a friend to critique my thread that was my first direct attempt at positive apologetics. One of his suggestions was for me to use more questions.... he did this, not by TELLING me, but by asking questions to me, so that i came to the conclusion of asking more questions... i dont think i did a very good job in the type of questions that i asked you, but hey, i'm still learning.

God Bless,

johnny

What an original thought...truly, you have destroyed me.

quote:Originally posted by Iehovah:

it's amazingly resilient and has the capability of ignoring every single one of your arguments, no matter how good they are.



Very true. A super christian would be immune to reason, but for someone who isn't brainwashed, it will eat away at them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Good morning redjoker,

Good morning.

Here, i am speaking of the human POV...

Changing one's destiny is different than chosing one's destiny.

To change a destiny, one would have to know, necessarily, what the destiny is in the first place... from a human POV, this would be self-contradictary.

Chosing one's destiny is not necessarily knowing the outcome, but the destiny is contingent to choices made. (this is how i am using the term 'free will'... the ability to make choices that effect an outcome...especially, significant moral choices.)

I don't know if you looking into my words too much or something, but the point is your destiny is locked and it can't be changed. Like your example of the tape, existence is like one big video. The only difference between the average viewer watching the recording is that the supposed God of the universe created it all, and knew the outcome of his creation.

Your knowlege of the outcome did not cause the outcome.

And neither could it change the outcome. If God existed and lets say for example he sent the losing team to hell (there is a losing team in this scenario). Not that that would be a reason for going to hell, but just to stay on the subject. God made all of that happen. God, being all powerful, should have made the teams tie, saving their souls.

How do you know that you can not have some free will?

I don't know how much more simple I could make it. You either can make your own decisions and determine your destiny or you can't.

Let's say that you want to go for a walk. I'm assuming that you have that ability.

Now let's say that you want to walk on the ceiling. Your desire is limited by gravity (actually, by the natural laws that God has established). Is walking on a ceiling impossible?... No. Flys do it quite often. Does that mean that flys are not affected by gravity? No.

So, by "some free will" i am saying that there are some choices that God allows.. but not all choices are allowed, just as some abilities are not allowed. (i'm not calling the fly on the ceiling a choice but an ability)

You and i can not chose to become greater than God... well, we can choose this (actually, that is basically what sin is.. doing our will over what God's Will is.), but the choice does not make us greater than God.. that is, we do not actually become greater than Eternal God.

Walking on the ceiling is not an example free will becuase it is something you can't do. Its not a decision. A good example would be buying some gum. You could either choose to buy the spearming pack or the winterfresh pack. But since God knows what you are already going to do, you will always do one thing while another option is available.

First of all, how you know evil exists?

I don't know if it really does but the bible says it does.



I'll save you the effort... In the theistic set that YOU use, you describe God to be "merciful and just". This would not only be begging the question of "merciful and just" but also of truth.

Thats what the whole problem is. The good book says that God is merciful and just, but it also says that God is the all knowing divine creator. God, if he existed the way christians believe creates evil. There is no argument here. He wouldn't be God if evil just randomly popped up everywhere. You see, this is just another example of the bible says a lot of things that contradict one another.

Again, the point of this is not free will or predestination. Its the fact that God knowingly creates things that will only go to hell. It would be like me cloning a dog just so I could kick the shit out of it everyday. I made this creature with for only one purpose. Its life has been determined. It has no choice but to get the shit kicked out of it. At least the dog will eventually die and its suffering end.

The only thing that I am saying that I believe is that the christian faith is wrong. I doesn't make and logical sense. So don't try to look any further into what I believe in or talk about it. Save it for another thread and try to keep on topic.

Hi redjoker,

quote:The only thing that I am saying that I believe is that the christian faith is wrong. I doesn't make and logical sense. So don't try to look any further into what I believe in or talk about it. Save it for another thread and try to keep on topic.

Actually i have been very much on topic. These are all parts of the deductive problem of evil.

I'm gonna point out one more thing that you said, that might help you understand that this the theistic set is not a contradiction.

quote:Again, the point of this is not free will or predestination. Its the fact that God knowingly creates things that will only go to hell. It would be like me cloning a dog just so I could kick the shit out of it everyday. I made this creature with for only one purpose.

The reason that free will and predestination is the point, is that even though God created things knowing their destiny, He also created them with the ability to choose. This implies that we do have a small part in our destiny (even though God already knows the outcome).

Another problem with your arguement that you use to get "super Christians" off your back, is that you presume to know (it's implied in your arguement, whether you actually do presume it or not) what God's purpose is, in Creating significantly moral beings.

It's time for bed right now, and my wife and i are gonna be gone tommorrow.. i'll check back tomorrow night to see if you have any comments.

Good night and God Bless,

johnny

Okay, let me make this point clearer. Lets say for instance you do have free will and all that. It doesn't make sense but lets say you do. So God, knowing all, created a sinner, who won't accept god, knowing that that person would choose to do so. This is why free will and predestination are not the point of the topic. The point of the topic is that, and now read very slowly:

GOD KNOWS WHO GOES TO HELL AND MAKES THEM ANYWAYS.

That is my whole argument as to why christianity is fucked up. Who wants a God knowingly that creates beings that will suffer for eternity.

quote:Originally posted by redjoker:



Which means that God knowingly creates men that will only live for less than 100 years, yet spend an eternity in hell.

Not in any bible I've ever read. He created man to live for a bloody long time (several hundred years), only later did he limit the number of our days and there is a hint he wanted us to live eternally.

And the whole 'burn for eternity in hell' bit isn't in the bible...nor is 'hell' itself, well not as most people commonly seem to think.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 04-01-2007).]

quote:Originally posted by redjoker:

Okay, let me make this point clearer. Lets say for instance you do have free will and all that. It doesn't make sense but lets say you do. So God, knowing all, created a sinner, who won't accept god, knowing that that person would choose to do so. This is why free will and predestination are not the point of the topic. The point of the topic is that, and now read very slowly:

GOD KNOWS WHO GOES TO HELL AND MAKES THEM ANYWAYS.

That is my whole argument as to why christianity is fucked up. Who wants a God knowingly that creates beings that will suffer for eternity.

Good morning redjoker,

I mentioned that we would be gone all day today. It's my nephew's confirmation and they live about 2 hours away, so in order to make it to the church service we would have had to leave about 5 minutes ago. My wife still hasnt gotten out of bed yet..oops, i take that back, i hear the shower running now.

Anyway, since we're running late, i thought i'd work on this for alittle bit.

First, no matter how slow or fast i read your post, i assure you that i do understand the point you are making.

What i have been trying to do, is show you how your point (and incomplete) is wrong (or atleast, incomplete).

WOW, I AM JUST AMAZED at my wife... she is out of the shower already and, except for pouring a cup of coffee, she is ready to go.. in under 15 minutes... makeup and everything. She is an amazing woman.

OK, i'll be back, God Willing.

Have a good day,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by redjoker:

Don't give me that free will bullshit. How can there be free will if God (supposing that he exists) is the puppet master pulling all of the strings. Where is the free will when you know the future and you're the one who created it? We make all of our actions based on influences. Thats just a fact. If God is the one who makes everything happen then God is the one who shapes you into the person you are by creating the situations in your life. So God, being all knowing, knows exactly how you will respond to every situation he/she/it puts you in. This is just another hole. God made a murder happen becuase he presented the situation knowing how all concerned parties would act. And then sent the killer to hell for that and other reasons. The whole while God shaped this persons life to be exactly the way he was, and God created this person knowing that this would happen, knowing that there would be no alternative. Free will is a joke according the rules of christianity. Either that or God isn't powerful enough to micromanage. But then, he wouldn't be God now would he? If you think there is free will then you must have the mind of child. I don't know how much more clear I can make this.



Personally, I don't support the idea of a God, I think religion is an idea that was needed in the past but no longer. The world needs to leave it behind. BUT, if there is a God, I picture him as simply a creator. He created man, the world, probably other worlds & life out there, and I think he just sits back and watches how everything unfolds. I don't believe he influences anyone's lives at all. I think he just sits back and watches, like on a big tv http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) And the show on Earth is getting interesting, what with the prospect of another war coming and all. But like someone said above, we do have free will. He made his rules, and if we break enough of them we suffer the punishment. But I don't think he metes out the punishments himself. It's like he built the system, made the rules, and things happen on their own. He just eats his popcorn and watches it all unfold.

I'm only half-serious here, but you get the idea. But like I said in my first sentence I don't believe that anyway.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

she is ready to go.. in under 15 minutes... makeup and everything.

[/B]

Now that is a miracle. Maybe there is a god.

But which part do you think is wrong? The part about God knowingly creating people who do evil things and then sending them to hell when he could have not? Or the part about how all of that seems like the wrong thing to do?

quote:Originally posted by redjoker:

But which part do you think is wrong? The part about God knowingly creating people who do evil things and then sending them to hell when he could have not? Or the part about how all of that seems like the wrong thing to do?

Hi again,

Neither.

The part that it's an explicite contradiction.

Also, it is not a necessarily implicite contradiction.



Anyway, as far as it being a miracle that my wife can get ready so quick... i guess i would be a counter miracle... it takes me forever to get ready. lol

But really, she is an amazing woman http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

johnny