John 3:4-6

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

(NIV)

When I think of giving birth I think of the breaking of the water that surrounds the child and supports it while in the womb, so that falls in line with "flesh gives birth to flesh" and it's connection to water.

Was Jesus without the Spirit of God until his symbolic baptism of birth into the spirit?

If you believe what you read, Jesus is both a man and God almighty. But still, no different a man to any other.
We're all infused with the spirit of God, but the act of baptism is a sign to men, God and ourselves of our faithfulness, allowing you feel his warmth more (as the warmth is always there for everyone, regardless; it's just a matter of wether you can see it).
If you believe what you read, of course, which makes it that much more important.

Peace.

I was thinking....

That it was related to OT scripture and how the Holy Spirit came upon prophets, or maybe even a subtle reference to David.

If we're all "infused" as you put it, then spirit must have its dormancy time prior to its being awakened. Unless one is born a prophet, born of both at the same time.

I agree that there is that symbolism in baptism, much like a marriage ceremony actually. I'm just not sure I grasp it.

Baptism was something that was practiced by the Jews (if memory serves me right) when a non-Jew converted.

So, I'm wondering. Did it mean the same sort of thing then as it is taken to symbolize today?

I'm an adoptionist.

Which basically means that I believe that JC was a normal man until his baptism. When 'kingship was once more lowered from the heavens' (there's a long and complex reason for my using that phrase) upon him or if you prefer the Spirit of god crowned him.

But thats just the way I read the evidence.

However, even after he got a following, Jesus insisted he was really nothing special, implicit in his having said "All these things I have done, ye shall do also--all these and more."

There are a thousand different meanings you can take from anything Jesus has said, depending on how much you know. That's the beauty of him, he was SO fucking deep because he was so simple. God, Jesus kicked ass. :D

I'm an adoptionist.

Which basically means that I believe that JC was a normal man until his baptism. When 'kingship was once more lowered from the heavens' (there's a long and complex reason for my using that phrase) upon him or if you prefer the Spirit of god crowned him.

But thats just the way I read the evidence.

Well Christ means "annointed one" and if you've read this, it would make a lot of sense... (http://www.hightimes.com/ht/news/content.php?bid=31&aid=2)

However, even after he got a following, Jesus insisted he was really nothing special, implicit in his having said "All these things I have done, ye shall do also--all these and more."


I think that any great leader emphasizes to his followers, those who will carry on after he is gone, that they too have that potential to be great.

I am, however, cautious in the thought that what was written in regard to those he was close to was also something that should be applied to everyone in general. I think that often leads people astray today because they do not have the same foundation as they.

I'm an adoptionist.

Which basically means that I believe that JC was a normal man until his baptism. When 'kingship was once more lowered from the heavens' (there's a long and complex reason for my using that phrase) upon him or if you prefer the Spirit of god crowned him.

But thats just the way I read the evidence.

So, would you say then, that it was at this point that Jesus entered into the "Kingdom of God"? Or, was it upon his death, his resurrection, that he could enter into the "Kingdom of God" and come and go as need be...in "Spirit"?

There seemed to have been a transition phase. That period where he was not to be touched, if memory serves me right. (If he did indeed die at that time, that is.) Born first, in the flesh. Born second, in the Spirit.

So, would you say then, that it was at this point that Jesus entered into the "Kingdom of God"? Or, was it upon his death, his resurrection, that he could enter into the "Kingdom of God" and come and go as need be...in "Spirit"?

There seemed to have been a transition phase. That period where he was not to be touched, if memory serves me right. (If he did indeed die at that time, that is.) Born first, in the flesh. Born second, in the Spirit.

I see the Kingodm of God on the one hand as apurely earthly, physical thing that hasn't yet come to pass.

But I take it also to mean a state of mind (and soul if you wish).

Also the communal consciousness of all believers.

'the holy spirit' or the encompassing euphoria that large black women often 'feel' in church is nothing more than themselves riling up their inner entheogenic instincts.