MATTHEW 6:24 "No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

Capitalism runs off of attempts at making a prophet and therefore focuses around greed. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd, then, that a lot of Christians are pro-capitalist and for a system like this, which encourages people to be greedy and makes money a basic necessity for life in the eyes of the majority? Shouldn't Christians be all Christian Anarchists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchists)?

Capitalism runs off of attempts at making a prophet
You got it wrong, mate, that's Christianity!

>_<

proFit.

well, understandable, a lot of things about christianity in today's life is hypocritical.

MATTHEW 6:24 "No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

Capitalism runs off of attempts at making a prophet and therefore focuses around greed. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd, then, that a lot of Christians are pro-capitalist and for a system like this, which encourages people to be greedy and makes money a basic necessity for life in the eyes of the majority? Shouldn't Christians be all Christian Anarchists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchists)?

No, your a douche!!!You know nothing about Christianity so quite spouting out your ignorance!

Capitalism- people make thier own money by how hard they work! In the bible it says a man should work for his food and other stuff, not take handouts or bum off people(not nesacarily that but thats the main idea!) Communism and socialism is godless and thats why people w/o gods like yourselves like them more than capitalism and why we like capitalism!

Communism and socialism is godless and thats why people w/o gods like yourselves like them more than capitalism and why we like capitalism!

Not always. There is Christian communism.

Capitalism- people make thier own money by how hard they work!

NO. You have no idea of what capitalism is. I agree with the OP, as Mahatma Gandhi said: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

No, your a douche!!!You know nothing about Christianity so quite spouting out your ignorance!

Capitalism- people make thier own money by how hard they work! In the bible it says a man should work for his food and other stuff, not take handouts or bum off people(not nesacarily that but thats the main idea!) Communism and socialism is godless and thats why people w/o gods like yourselves like them more than capitalism and why we like capitalism!

For a second I played with the idea that you weren't a shitty troll. Thanks for putting me in my place

NO. You have no idea of what capitalism is. I agree with the OP, as Mahatma Gandhi said:

i dont??? than come one socialist explain it to me?

All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Acts 2:44-45)

There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. There was a Levite, a native of Cyprus, Joseph, to whom the apostles gave the name Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”). He sold a field that belonged to him, then brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
(Acts 4:34-37)

If we're going to try to guess which political ideology Christians should try to emulate, then certainly the very early Christians serve as the prototype.

Those passages above describe the early Christian's form of living: communism.

Jews are pro-capitalism. Christians are just riding their skirt tails.

No, your a douche!!!You know nothing about Christianity so quite spouting out your ignorance!

Capitalism- people make thier own money by how hard they work! In the bible it says a man should work for his food and other stuff, not take handouts or bum off people(not nesacarily that but thats the main idea!) Communism and socialism is godless and thats why people w/o gods like yourselves like them more than capitalism and why we like capitalism!

There have been numerous Christian-socialist groups.

Further, Hare_Geist is correct, the doctrines of capitalism and Christianity are at times antithetical. For instance "...I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)

Finally, most atheists, like myself, are very fond of capitalism.

There have been numerous Christian-socialist groups.

Further, Hare_Geist is correct, the doctrines of capitalism and Christianity are at times antithetical. For instance "...I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)

Finally, most atheists, like myself, are very fond of capitalism.

Yes it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven! But this has nothing to do with the topic, he cant get to heaven because he'd rather indulge into his greed than praise God! but the bible says "Man shall eat by the sweat of his brow" (some scripture some number : some number!!! You look at capitalism through the eyes of a socialist and for that you see it as bad! But you like the bad dont you? Apparently you through your way of thinking it is bad, but yet you like it! Isnt there a post here some where about Athiests just like Satanists? Ya i think its something like that!

Please ban him, he isn't misinformed or anything, he's just trolling. It's blatantly obvious

Yes it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven! But this has nothing to do with the topic, he cant get to heaven because he'd rather indulge into his greed than praise God!

Funny, it said nothing about that. It said rich, period. Are you saying being rich stops you from praising the lord? How?

By that time's standards, we're all ludicrously rich. Good times

i dont??? than come one socialist explain it to me?

Dude, under capitalism, people don't make their money by how hard they work, but the amount of money they have in first place. And I didn't say I was socialist.

Say I own a t-shirt shop. My employees must fulfill a quota of making ten shirts a day. Each t-shirt costs $5. The price of labor is $3.50. The raw material and machinery costs are equal to about $5 a day. Now one employee usually finishes his quota in 2 hours, which means that I have $50 in product and $13 in expenses. Without doing any work, I the capitalist, have made $37 in profit, $10 of which will go to covering my future expenses, whereas, my employee who did all the work gets paid only $7. This is Capitalism, exploitation of the proletariot, whatever you want to call it I hope you find it wrong.

Say I own a t-shirt shop. My employees must fulfill a quota of making ten shirts a day. Each t-shirt costs $5. The price of labor is $3.50. The raw material and machinery costs are equal to about $5 a day. Now one employee usually finishes his quota in 2 hours, which means that I have $50 in product and $13 in expenses. Without doing any work, I the capitalist, have made $37 in profit, $10 of which will go to covering my future expenses, whereas, my employee who did all the work gets paid only $7. This is Capitalism, exploitation of the proletariot, whatever you want to call it I hope you find it wrong.

Owning a business is mental work not physical work! But your still doing work, you used your brain and decided to use your brain power over your physical power to earn a profit! there is nothing wrong with that! See what i hate is when athiests ask a question to Christians, and other athiest answer! Then when a Christian tells you why, you say were stupid and wrong! ABOUT OUR OWN FUCKING RELIGION!!! We have a deeper understanding then you fucktards so shut the hell up!

YOUR IGNORANCE IS ASTOUNDING!!!

Then when a Christian tells you why, you say were stupid and wrong! ABOUT OUR OWN FUCKING RELIGION!!! We have a deeper understanding then you fucktards so shut the hell up!

YOUR IGNORANCE IS ASTOUNDING!!!

Yeah, if only that were true. Most Christians know jack shit about their religions. Especially, Protestants. Protestants, especially American ones, don't get shit about Christianity. You heathens and your born again crap that you pulled out of your asses. Sure a man can go and shoot another and rape a woman, but as long as he comes back to church and re-baptizes himself, he'll get into heaven. At least Catholics are told to serve a pennence to make up for their admitted sins. And even after doing that, they again make up for their sins in their believed purgatory before even setting foot in God's grace in heaven. You sir, are the Anti-Christian.

Yeah, if only that were true. Most Christians know jack shit about their religions. Especially, Protestants. Protestants, especially American ones, don't get shit about Christianity. You heathens and your born again crap that you pulled out of your asses. Sure a man can go and shoot another and rape a woman, but as long as he comes back to church and re-baptizes himself, he'll get into heaven. At least Catholics are told to serve a pennence to make up for their admitted sins. And even after doing that, they again make up for their sins in their believed purgatory before even setting foot in God's grace in heaven. You sir, are the Anti-Christian.

YOUR FUCKING RETARDED KID! YOU LOST YOUR SPEAKING PRIVELAGES TOO, SO SHUT UP!!! You know nothing about catholics nor protestant so go to fucking hell you athist cunt!

i hate getting mad like this but you people are so fucking retarded its amazing! if you wouldnt shout out your ignorance about somehting then it wouldnt be bad but you guys need some serious therapy! i mean damn your completly HEAD-FUCKED!

YOUR FUCKING RETARDED KID! YOU LOST YOUR SPEAKING PRIVELAGES TOO, SO SHUT UP!!! You know nothing about catholics nor protestant so go to fucking hell you athist cunt!

i hate getting mad like this but you people are so fucking retarded its amazing! if you wouldnt shout out your ignorance about somehting then it wouldnt be bad but you guys need some serious therapy! i mean damn your completly HEAD-FUCKED!

You are so Anti-Christian. Jesus does not approve of that foul language of yours. I hope he does come back. I hope he starts sending people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and people like you to where you scum belong... On an island full of gay people. Because people like you are closet gays. I can tell you are gay. All that self repression is making you an angry person.

I'd hate to meet you. Because I would get so annoyed by your presence that I would knock you out. If I did that, not only will I get sentenced for assault, but I would also get sentenced for a hate crime. Your PC ass would say that I attacked you because you are gay, adding a few more on my jail sentence. You anti-christian, homo, PC bastard.

MATTHEW 6:24 "No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

Capitalism runs off of attempts at making a prophet and therefore focuses around greed. Doesn't it strike anyone as odd, then, that a lot of Christians are pro-capitalist and for a system like this, which encourages people to be greedy and makes money a basic necessity for life in the eyes of the majority? Shouldn't Christians be all Christian Anarchists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchists)?

For once, I am completely and 100% totally and without a shadow of a doubt (don't take that literally :p) in agreement with your post.

Oh, and in no way is that communism, it's more collectivist anarchism.

Communism was just a tool the super capitalists used to make even bigger bank. :p

Oh, and in no way is that communism, it's more collectivist anarchism.


No, actually, that is communism.

No, actually, that is communism.

It shares some of the same philisophical tenets as communism, but it is not communism.

If they are selling their property and dividing it among the community based on need - just as it is clear in the bible the early Christians were doing, then it is definitely communism.

C'mon. Don't feed the troll.

Masta Thief hasn't made a single straightforward response to any of the valid points raised in this thread so far, he's just yelled a lot and said that we don't know shit.

I say he don't know shit.

He's gonna have to google his facts on religion, and we're gonna have our bibles out with our reading glasses on while he drowns in his own bullshit.

------------------------------------

Just my piece. Christians aren't the ones getting into heaven anyway. Nobody but the jews, so says the bible.

Y'all are fucked, thinking that money (or lack thereof) would get us closer to or further from god. We're never going to make it, even if we have devout faith.

THAT is why I'm buddhist.

If they are selling their property and dividing it among the community based on need - just as it is clear in the bible the early Christians were doing, then it is definitely communism.

No, Communism would then be based off of Christianity as Christianity came first. It would be more proper to say Communism is a Christian way of thought, not the other way around.

It seems like communism is more of an ideal that was given the name 'communism' when political-speak graduated beyond the vocabularies of High Priests and scribes.

The ideal itself had emerged already, but hadn't been given a mainstreamlabel yet.

Just a thought.

It seems like communism is more of an ideal that was given the name 'communism' when political-speak graduated beyond the vocabularies of High Priests and scribes.

The ideal itself had emerged already, but hadn't been given a mainstreamlabel yet.

Just a thought.

The idea has been around for a verrry long time. In fact, it's almost primitive. The whole fascination with "me" seemed to have come about with the alcohol-drinking, monotheistic, androcratic civilizations which brought about what most consider "history".

So really there's no point in calling it communism unless you're trying to make some statement about communism itself, i.e.; that because Jesus espoused some communist like ideas that communism is inherently good. Or that jesus was a pinko commie.

Masta Thief. You are fucking dumb.

Instead of telling people "OMG U IDIET U NO NOTHIN ABOOT CKRISTIANETEY" Why don't you actually show then where they are wrong?

You say the bible is about hard work and not giving people handouts, you are completely right. Jesus never did anyone any good for free did he?

Even if you take on this Gospel of Wealth (I bet you have no clue what that is) and believe that you should work hard for money, aren't you putting money in front of your god? Shouldn't a christian's primary aim be to appease god and enter the kingdom of heaven rather than just go to church once a week and spend the rest of the time stuffing pockets?

Even if you believe that its ok to earn a lot of money, the whole aim of earning money is to give it out to people. If you are a christian you have the obligation to follow and attempt to be like Jesus. Jesus didn't work to earn money, he rejected his private property and gave all he could.

Don't bother responding unless you are ready to present a clear, logical, supported and well-spelled rebuttal.

No, Communism would then be based off of Christianity as Christianity came first. It would be more proper to say Communism is a Christian way of thought, not the other way around.

Google primitive communism. It was supposedly around long before Christianity.

You are so Anti-Christian. Jesus does not approve of that foul language of yours. I hope he does come back. I hope he starts sending people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and people like you to where you scum belong... On an island full of gay people. Because people like you are closet gays. I can tell you are gay. All that self repression is making you an angry person.

I'd hate to meet you. Because I would get so annoyed by your presence that I would knock you out. If I did that, not only will I get sentenced for assault, but I would also get sentenced for a hate crime. Your PC ass would say that I attacked you because you are gay, adding a few more on my jail sentence. You anti-christian, homo, PC bastard.

WHY? i ask why??? Why do you people steal my arguements??? Cant you be a little more creative than that? i mean come on your a douchebag when you use my arguements! you PC/Liberal/Socialist/Athiest BASTARD!!!

No, Communism would then be based off of Christianity as Christianity came first. It would be more proper to say Communism is a Christian way of thought, not the other way around.

I'm not saying that Christianity is based on communism or that Christianity is a communist way of thought. I'm saying the early Christians practiced communism. That's it. I'm stating a fact. Given what we can read in the bible, it seems the early Christians practiced communism. It has nothing to do with who is based off of what.

P.S. The idea (and practice) of communism precedes Christianity by ages. Saying "Communism is a Christian way of thought" would be wrong.

The whole fascination with "me" seemed to have come about with the alcohol-drinking, monotheistic, androcratic civilizations which brought about what most consider "history"
Alcohol is the creation of the devil if there ever was one.

I'm not saying that Christianity is based on communism or that Christianity is a communist way of thought. I'm saying the early Christians practiced communism. That's it. I'm stating a fact. Given what we can read in the bible, it seems the early Christians practiced communism. It has nothing to do with who is based off of what.

P.S. The idea (and practice) of communism precedes Christianity by ages. Saying "Communism is a Christian way of thought" would be wrong.

No, the idea and practice of communism didn't come about until, *gasp*, COMMUNISM.

Like I said, people practiced this way of life for ages, but it was not communism. It may be like communism, but it isn't communism.

You're right that saying "communism is a Christian way of thought" is "wrong", but I think you missed the point. Why would you say object X is object Y when X came before Y? Unless there is a particular reason for this, it isn't logical. That's like saying Rock 'N Roll is a form of punk rock.

Oh, and I'd love to hear your definition of "fact".

I call a table a "table", a German calls a table a "tabelle", but it is what it is, despite if it has a name or not.

No, the idea and practice of communism didn't come about until, *gasp*, COMMUNISM.

Like I said, people practiced this way of life for ages, but it was not communism. It may be like communism, but it isn't communism.

It is communism if it *gasp* follows the definition of what communism is!

It wasn't called communism at that time, but it falls within what communism entails, hence it is completely correct to refer to it as communism. I'm sure nomad tribes weren't referred to as "nomad" thousands of years ago before the the term was even invented but it's entirely correct to refer to those tribes as "nomad".


Why would you say object X is object Y when X came before Y? I didn't miss the point, you did. The idea and practice of communism came before Christianity did. The question doesn't represent what I am doing, because I'm not saying "X is Y when X came before Y".


Oh, and I'd love to hear your definition of "fact".I'm not going to derail the topic with your epistemological questions.

To sum up this thread:
1. Masta Theif is a ignorant doo-doo head
2. Christianity+Capitolism=hypocrasy
3. More time can be spent arguing technicalities, like weather or not a idea that fits a definition can be defined as that, than about a thread topic
4. Christians can identify with more than one political ideology

I'm sorry if I pissed anyone off, I'm in a piss mood.

I call a table a "table", a German calls a table a "tabelle", but it is what it is, despite if it has a name or not.

Nothing to do with this.


It is communism if it *gasp* follows the definition of what communism is!

But it doesn't follow the definition of communism, it merely has a few of the same basic ideas. I'll use wikipedia as a source for a definition, unless you object to that:

Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production. It can be considered a branch of the broader socialist movement.

Under this definition, this is not Christianity. Christianity does not seek to establish a "classless, stateless organization", thats merely a byproduct of their main goal. Christianity goes much further than communism, because Christianity is about the spirit of things, and not any set definitions.


It wasn't called communism at that time, but it falls within what communism entails, hence it is completely correct to refer to it as communism.

But since Christianity came before "communism", and the idea was around before Christianity, it would be more apporpriate to say that communism is ____, not the other way around.

I'm sure nomad tribes weren't referred to as "nomad" thousands of years ago before the the term was even invented but it's entirely correct to refer to those tribes as "nomad".

Yes, but you wouldn't call those ancient people Gypsies, now would you?


I didn't miss the point, you did. The idea and practice of communism came before Christianity did. The question doesn't represent what I am doing, because I'm not saying "X is Y when X came before Y".

No, the idea that communism alludes to was around a lot longer than Christianity, but communism itself didn't come around until a lot longer, so it can't be communism. It can be like it, but it is NOT equal so therefore it ISN'T communism. Communism is a specific theory that came about at a specific point in time, saying Christianity is communistic is not intellectually honest.

I'm not going to derail the topic with your epistemological questions.

Then I'll claim everything I say as a fact.

Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production. It can be considered a branch of the broader socialist movement.

You're letting the last sentence there fool you. You picked the most modern definition, which is simply a progressive extension of the most simple and far-reaching definition of communism, which is:

a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

Nothing about classes, or socialist movements ... which was organized much, much later.

So what you're basically saying is that something can't really be confirmed until you make a theory or system out of it. That it doesn't "count" until said theory or system is put in place and given a title.

What is the *meat* of a theory or system, then - if not for the ideals it draws upon in order to establish it? An ideal is first formulated. The theory or system regarding it then likens itself to the ideals it borrowed it's inspiration from ... therefore the ideals (which came first) is essentially the entire premises in which the theory or system is based on.

The definition you gave of Communism is in it's most modern, evolved form - after having been refined for centuries and centuries and centuries. Applying that to the age of pre-Christianity is pointless, as articles of politics such as "the socialist movement" hadn't been erected yet.

This isn't a "You say tomato, I say to-mah-to" kinda deal, as it truly is one and the same thing, only re-worded and dressed up to meet the modern applications of it in a more advanced society.

You're letting the last sentence there fool you.

No, I didn't even address that last sentence.

You picked the most modern definition, which is simply a progressive extension of the most simple and far-reaching definition of communism, which is:

I tried to pick a definition that would be agreed upon by a majority of people. Since wikipedia is basically democratic, I thought that would be a good choice.


a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.


Yes, exactly. Christianity isn't a theory or a system. It doesn't have anything to do with man-made logic or reasoning, the only thing that matters is faith in God.


So what you're basically saying is that something can't really be confirmed until you make a theory or system out of it. That it doesn't "count" until said theory or system is put in place and given a title.

No, not at all.

Idea X came around let's say, 10,000 years ago.
Idea X had many variations throughout the years, 2000 years ago it was called Christianity, a little over a hundred and it was called communism.

They may sure the same tenets, but they are NOT the same thing, they are NOT equal, if for only the simple fact that they appeared in different places in space and time.

Christianity is NOT the same thing as communism in any way, shape, or form, whatsoever.

NOW do I make sense?

You're saying that the core concept behind Communism has been around forever, but has undergone several permutations that merely alter its usage and implementation.

But even though the Ford Model-T was the first car ever made, the concept remains for the rest of all cars: 4 wheels, a frame, an engine, and a guy to drive it.

Communism might not have been called communism back then, but it still was communism.

Saying that a Brachiosaurus is different from a Brontosaurus is utter bull for the same reason: Just because the name is different, doesn't mean it's a different thing.

Pretty simple, dude.

No, I didn't even address that last sentence.

Kinda, you did. You chose it as the best choice for the definition.



I tried to pick a definition that would be agreed upon by a majority of people. Since wikipedia is basically democratic, I thought that would be a good choice.

Wikipedia is democratic in today's modern sense. This is about the ideal of communism pre-dating Christianity, an ideal that the Bible seems to support with certain scripture. I won't be redundant and call on the specific scriptures, because they've already been posted here.

Yes, exactly. Christianity isn't a theory or a system. It doesn't have anything to do with man-made logic or reasoning, the only thing that matters is faith in God.

No one here said that Christianity was a theory or a system! They were sizing up the ideologies of Christianity and comparing the civic philosophies that Christianity, as interpreted through the Bible, most heartily supported.


Christianity is NOT the same thing as communism in any way, shape, or form, whatsoever.

NOW do I make sense?

No! Not one lick of sense! Because no one here is saying that Christianity and communism are the same things. They're saying that the communist perspective (or, in your opinion, the collective anarchic perspective) is what Christianity seems most in line with.

What the actual Christian civic perspective truly was based on can be up for debate. But to say that communism didn't exist before Christianity is incorrect.

Christianity does not seek to establish a "classless, stateless organization", thats merely a byproduct of their main goal.

Modern Christianity does not. The civilization of ancient Christianity as portrayed in the Bible through certain scriptures kind of hints that it does. And let's face it - Christianity has abandoned lots of their main goals that a Biblical Scholar of Yore would have pronounced as the definitive GOSPEL!

Christianity goes much further than communism,

Modern Christianity does. Biblical Christianity seemed to favor the general ideals of it.

Christianity is capitalist down to the masters and slaves.

Cheers,
Lost

Honestly what the FUCK is going on in this thread? arghagh...

You're saying that the core concept behind Communism has been around forever, but has undergone several permutations that merely alter its usage and implementation.

Yes, as in, communism is a specific off shoot of a much older way of life. Communism itself hasn't been around forever, only some of the basic ideas.


But even though the Ford Model-T was the first car ever made, the concept remains for the rest of all cars: 4 wheels, a frame, an engine, and a guy to drive it.

Yes, you're right. You wouldn't call a Model-T a ferrari, now would you?



Communism might not have been called communism back then, but it still was communism.

No, I'm sorry, communism didn't exist until it was theorized by mr. marx & the gang. As similar as two things might be, they will never be equal. 1.0000000000000001 might be reaaally close to 1 (relativley), but it isn't equal to 1.


Saying that a Brachiosaurus is different from a Brontosaurus is utter bull for the same reason: Just because the name is different, doesn't mean it's a different thing.


Like I said, it's not just the name; merely being in a different point in space and time will bring about huge differences.


Kinda, you did. You chose it as the best choice for the definition.

I didn't use it in my argument.


Wikipedia is democratic in today's modern sense. This is about the ideal of communism pre-dating Christianity, an ideal that the Bible seems to support with certain scripture. I won't be redundant and call on the specific scriptures, because they've already been posted here.

WTF do you mean "this is about"? This is what it's about:


Those passages above describe the early Christian's form of living: communism.


If they are selling their property and dividing it among the community based on need - just as it is clear in the bible the early Christians were doing, then it is definitely communism.


THAT'S what this argument is about.

No one here said that Christianity was a theory or a system!

Let me break this down for you.

Rust said, basically (unless he would like to state otherwise), that Christians practiced communism, and preached it as a way of life. Thusly making Christians communists, and Christian thought to be in line with communist theory. More or less, he is equating Christianity with Communism.

Now, if you look at the definition I provided (if you would like to give an alternate, feel free), you'll see the logical connection:


a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

that = communism, but that does not = Christianity. So therefore christianity != communism.

No! Not one lick of sense! Because no one here is saying that Christianity and communism are the same things. They're saying that the communist perspective (or, in your opinion, the collective anarchic perspective) is what Christianity seems most in line with.

"Most" in line with? How does one determine that? Are you going to go verse by verse and divvy them up by economic/political theories? Either way, it doesn't matter, because Rust was saying Christians were basically communists.

But to say that communism didn't exist before Christianity is incorrect.


WTF.

Okay, people, try to forget your egos for a second.

Think about this.

Several people can watch the same scene and get several different realities of what happened. No one is able to access objective reality. Thusly, no one is ever 100% correct.

Now, think of how all the small tiny little things can make a big difference to the big picture. Compare the time of Christ and the time of Marx. Don't you think that they might have different views about things?

Just because one thing shares a lot of similar traits with another, does NOT mean that they're the same thing. I mean, FFS, don't we share a huge chunk of the same DNA with dandelions? Imagine only being able to percieve DNA. You'd probably say that men and danelions share a lot of similar traits so what the fuck, they're the same thing.

Therefore, just by basic logic and not even going into the actual tenets of Christianity and communism, you can prove that Christianity != communism, and that communism itself is only equal to communism and nothing else.


Modern Christianity does not. The civilization of ancient Christianity as portrayed in the Bible through certain scriptures kind of hints that it does. And let's face it - Christianity has abandoned lots of their main goals that a Biblical Scholar of Yore would have pronounced as the definitive GOSPEL!

What does this have to do with what I said?


Modern Christianity does. Biblical Christianity seemed to favor the general ideals of it.

WTF? No, Biblical Christianity went a lot further than Modern Christianity does. In fact, I'd say modern christianity is just as christian as the USSR was communist.


Christianity is capitalist down to the masters and slaves.

WTF? GTFO.

MATTHEW 6:24Shouldn't Christians be all Christian Anarchists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchists)?

Heh, I found this link on that page

http://thechristmasconspiracy.com/

pretty funny

Please ban him, he isn't misinformed or anything, he's just trolling. It's blatantly obvious

I was waiting for that, but it look like it isn't going to happen.
*Hits ignore button*

EDIT: Huh. Without Masta Theif I feel better already. Everyone should do this.

Under this definition, this is not Christianity. Christianity does not seek to establish a "classless, stateless organization", thats merely a byproduct of their main goal. Christianity goes much further than communism, because Christianity is about the spirit of things, and not any set definitions.

I never said Christianity was communism! I never said that Christianity had to "seek to establish a "classless, stateless organization"! Seriously, what the fuck have you been reading?

I have not said that Christianity is the same as communism, I'm saying that the early Christians practiced communism. They did. They also did a whole lot of other things, that doesn't mean that Christianity must equal those things as well does it? When I say that they practiced communism I mean that the socio-economic situation of the early Christian communities was communist; it followed what communism is defined as.

There is a huge difference between saying that 'since the early Christian communities practiced communism that it seems Christianity promotes such a socio-economic system' (i.e. what I've said), and saying that 'since the early Christian communities practiced communism Christianity must be exactly the same as communism' (i.e. what you've made up).

But since Christianity came before "communism", and the idea was around before Christianity, it would be more apporpriate to say that communism is ____, not the other way around.It didn't come before communism, that's the whole point. A society which followed what communism is defined as existed long before Christianity. That those societies weren't called "communist" until much later is irrelevant. Just as nomadic tribes existed long before the term "nomad" was created.


Yes, but you wouldn't call those ancient people Gypsies, now would you?If by "Gypsies" I mean 'a nomadic group of people', then yes, most definitely. Just as by "communist" I mean "belonging to what communism is defined as".


No, the idea that communism alludes to was around a lot longer than Christianity, but communism itself didn't come around until a lot longer, so it can't be communism. It can be like it, but it is NOT equal so therefore it ISN'T communism. Communism is a specific theory that came about at a specific point in time, saying Christianity is communistic is not intellectually honest.Wrong, the idea and practice of communism came long before Christianity. There were classless societies long before Christianity; that they didn't call them "communist societies" is meaningless.


Then I'll claim everything I say as a fact.Perfect. Anything to expose how childish you are.

Jee, some of you guys are argueing about communism like its a bad thing. Stalinism and the like where rights are taken from the people are what we must be weary of. There is nothing inherently wrong about communism. In fact, I think that it makes the perfect society.

Where the people are not united to a common goal is the problem. The CCCP's greed for power wasnt in line with the society's basic needs, and corruption was rule of day. Contrast this to a Bhuddist commune or something where they all live peacefully and constructively together. When everyone is working together and not freeloading or skimming the top (allusions to sloth from the commoner and kickbacks for the government), that is when communism works.

What Rust is saying about early Christianity is truth, and no one should be ashamed of it. Christianity is a bunch of people, and whatever frm of government a bunch of people seek to establish is what becomes of it. Christianity is not a form of government, nor are we specifically told to abide by a specific form of government.

Rizzo, Rust hasnt said that Christians are communists. He simply stated that early Christians were. Neither did he say that the Bible instructs us to be communists. He did mention early Christian government type as communist, however we are not mandated to be such. Have you ever thought that communism might be the most efficient method to govern the people, and it naturally progressed into early Christians practicing it?

Rizzo, Rust hasnt said that Christians are communists.

Communists practice communism, Christians practice Christianity. He said Christians form of living was communism:

Those passages above describe the early Christian's form of living: communism.

Stalinism and the like where rights are taken from the people are what we must be weary of.

You mean....government in general?

There is nothing inherently wrong about communism.

Yes, yes there is, and as a Christian you should realize this.

In fact, I think that it makes the perfect society.

Man can not create a perfect society. Perfection only exists as/with God.

Where the people are not united to a common goal is the problem.

Everyone has different needs and people shouldn't be forced to do anything. My problems are not your problems. Hell, I have no problems. I don't need government.

The CCCP's greed for power wasnt in line with the society's basic needs, and corruption was rule of day.

Of the DAY? I hope you mean day as in, a Genesis day.

Contrast this to a Bhuddist commune or something where they all live peacefully and constructively together.

The last time I checked, Buddhism wasn't a government, economy, or even have any specific social structure in mind. In fact, in the teachings of Buddha it specifically says to be dependent on no man. That means no government.

When everyone is working together and not freeloading or skimming the top (allusions to sloth from the commoner and kickbacks for the government), that is when communism works.

Communism will only work when people are at such a state of enlightenment that names will be useless and they won't consider it it anything special. You can't change the nature of people with government. You just turn their oddities into perversions and outlaw them in the hopes it will go away.

What Rust is saying about early Christianity is truth, and no one should be ashamed of it. Christianity is a bunch of people, and whatever frm of government a bunch of people seek to establish is what becomes of it. Christianity is not a form of government, nor are we specifically told to abide by a specific form of government.

A Christian's only King is God and should not be concerned with the politics of the day. A christian has no need of government, God will provide for everything. Don't you trust God?

He simply stated that early Christians were.

You don't get it, do you?

I don't even consider modern Christianity to be Christian at all.

The Christians of years far gone practiced Christ's teachings, and some of his attitudes were later adopted and called Communism.

Neither did he say that the Bible instructs us to be communists.

Christians were Christians because they followed Christ's teachings, so if Christians practiced communism and were thusly communists, the Bible would give guidance to live as communists. Or else you'd be pulling all this out of your ass.

He did mention early Christian government type as communist, however we are not mandated to be such.

No, you're right, you can do anything you want as long as you do it out of love, with hope and faith in God. Most of the time, however, this will require you to give up everything you own, give it to the poor, help whenever asked without complaining, turning the other cheek, etc.

Have you ever thought that communism might be the most efficient method to govern the people,

Once again, a Christian (as in, one who does or at least tries as much as possible to be like Christ) does not need to be governed. Only Atheists need government, because without God man is God. As time has shown though, we're human beings and mistakes, so we're not God...

and it naturally progressed into early Christians practicing it?

How the fuck can they practice communism when it wasn't around and they practiced Christianity?

Anyway I'll address Rust's post later, but my main point is that it is meaningless to attribute things of the future(relatively) to things of the past. There is no reason to call it communism unless you have some personal bias for/against Christianity/communism.

Jee, some of you guys are argueing about communism like its a bad thing. Stalinism and the like where rights are taken from the people are what we must be weary of. There is nothing inherently wrong about communism. In fact, I think that it makes the perfect society.

Where the people are not united to a common goal is the problem. The CCCP's greed for power wasnt in line with the society's basic needs, and corruption was rule of day. Contrast this to a Bhuddist commune or something where they all live peacefully and constructively together. When everyone is working together and not freeloading or skimming the top (allusions to sloth from the commoner and kickbacks for the government), that is when communism works.

What Rust is saying about early Christianity is truth, and no one should be ashamed of it. Christianity is a bunch of people, and whatever frm of government a bunch of people seek to establish is what becomes of it. Christianity is not a form of government, nor are we specifically told to abide by a specific form of government.

Rizzo, Rust hasnt said that Christians are communists. He simply stated that early Christians were. Neither did he say that the Bible instructs us to be communists. He did mention early Christian government type as communist, however we are not mandated to be such. Have you ever thought that communism might be the most efficient method to govern the people, and it naturally progressed into early Christians practicing it?

Perhaps.. A completely rational and logical post!? Plus one to you good sir.

but my main point is that it is meaningless to attribute things of the future(relatively) to things of the past. There is no reason to call it communism unless you have some personal bias for/against Christianity/communism.

1. Once again, nobody is attributing "things of the future(relatively) to things of the past" as communism existed long before Christianity. That it wasn't called communism back then is meaningless.

2. There are many reasons why someone would call it communism; chief among them because it is communism. Calling it communism instantly describes their socio-economic situation. Just like in the example I've been using of nomadic tribes.

It seems to me that it is you who is so biased against communism that you can't bare Christians be associated with communism, making your comments rather ironic.

Capitalism runs off of attempts at making a prophet.

:D Best thread ever, please don't edit your typo.

This should be archived.

Man can not create a perfect society. Perfection only exists as/with God.


Which is why you will never see a perfect society on earth. Many axioms we take for granted that establish entire fields of mathematics and physics cannot be studied because they are physically impossible to recreate, yet we understand that the effects and truths do exist. Proclamation of fact and establishing fact are two different things, and not one I will try to say that they are the same.

Everyone has different needs and people shouldn't be forced to do anything. My problems are not your problems. Hell, I have no problems. I don't need government.

You mistunderstand me. The fact that people cannot, as an entirety, back a single goal is the reason that communism has so many problems. If everyone were to follow idealistic religious texts, communism would probably result. Howevever, atheistic individuals oftimes lack something unifying to rally behind like religious people do. Which is why a society based not on idealistic or religious standards will never have true communism. Couple this with the world never becoming completely under one religion or ideal, you will never see true communism form, at least with the current greed-centric culture that dominates much of the world.

Of the DAY? I hope you mean day as in, a Genesis day.

No, I specifically meant the time period that the CCCP was a government.

A Christian's only King is God and should not be concerned with the politics of the day. A christian has no need of government, God will provide for everything. Don't you trust God?

But God does not rule over us like kings, dictators, and republics. Sounds like communism without government overhead to me.

Regardless, afflictions come about us, whether we are to look at today or in the Bible. Afflictions, sickness, hardships all occur then and today. Trusting God has not changed. Recall the story of the woman with the last of her oil and flour. After that last cake of bread, she and her daughter would have had nothing. The prophet came by and provided for her by divine miracle.

Are you to say that someone who will assist you is not of divine providence? Are you to say that God must have a miracle to occur for any sort of welfare assistance? If that is so, why must there be a "love thy neighbor" commandment at all, lest God would take care of everyone regardless of their situation in life.