I was raised as a Catholic, but I'm currently a non practicing one. I attended a catholic school up to 6th grade, and was always told that Judas went to hell for betraying Jesus and killing himself. These are some big points, but without Judas, Jesus would never have gotten arrested and crucified, and He never would have saved us from our sins. Also, I don't really blame the poor guy for killing himself, I mean he was basically responsible for Jesus' death. Do you think God could have "bent the rules" and let Judas into Heaven?

What are your opinions?

I was raised as a Catholic, but I'm currently a non practicing one. I attended a catholic school up to 6th grade, and was always told that Judas went to hell for betraying Jesus and killing himself. These are some big points, but without Judas, Jesus would never have gotten arrested and crucified, and He never would have saved us from our sins. Also, I don't really blame the poor guy for killing himself, I mean he was basically responsible for Jesus' death. Do you think God could have "bent the rules" and let Judas into Heaven?

What are your opinions?

Man always thinks hes right when in gods eyes hes wrong!(quote from somwher in the bible) Ya its nice to think that there are exeptions but truthfully i dont think there is other than the 12,000 Jews or 13 from the tribes and the few who resist the devil during the seven years!

But for Judas, suicide is a oneway ticket to hell so prob. not. But then again everyone went to hell when they died before Jesus was crucified! So maybe he spent a while in hell then went to heaven like all the other people! IF and only if he had a good heart! i think all the wicked still stayed in hell!

By your own teachings, believing in Jesus saves him and I doubt he'd have stuck around him if he didn't

From a viewpoint of my beliefs (For what it's worth), he was already experiencing a level of hell, that's why he killed himself in the first place. Though I don't personally believe in eternal hell I do believe he would have experienced a hellish state of being (brought on by his own sense of guilt perhaps), but in terms of karma eventually he pays his due and continues to exist and evolve like everyone else.
At least I hope.

Personally, I think Pilsu has got it in one.

On a side note, I remember reading two versions of how Judas killed himself, in one he hung himself and the other spilled his guts over the floor, but I couldn't find the verse, so searching for it on google, I found something interesting: http://home.austin.rr.com/selliott4/papers/judas.html

God tells us not too judge.

so i think i will leave the judging up to God.

good question though.

The whole resurrection thing is a myth. And depending on which of the "infallible" gospels you read, Judas either hanged himself or he didn't.

I suggest you read the Gospel of Judas.

But for Judas, suicide is a oneway ticket to hell so prob. not. But then again everyone went to hell when they died before Jesus was crucified! So maybe he spent a while in hell then went to heaven like all the other people! IF and only if he had a good heart! i think all the wicked still stayed in hell!

What the hell do you believe Masta? Are you honestly of the opinion that before Jesus was crucified EVERYONE WENT TO HELL?

Why do you believe in some sort of half hell/half purgatory deal?

What the hell do you believe Masta? Are you honestly of the opinion that before Jesus was crucified EVERYONE WENT TO HELL?

Why do you believe in some sort of half hell/half purgatory deal?

Maybe he believes hell is like a threshing machine.

Well, I heard from a christian that Judas was infact doing Jesus a favor by turning him into the Roman Soldiers and that his real sin was not believing that he could be forgiven of his sins (so he killed himself).

BTW, I saw this Mohandus Gandhi quote yesterday, idk if it was on totse or not so if it was i give full credit to whoever it was.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
-Mohandus Gandhi

What the hell do you believe Masta? Are you honestly of the opinion that before Jesus was crucified EVERYONE WENT TO HELL?

Why do you believe in some sort of half hell/half purgatory deal?

Well as i have said to people before, dont make your ignorance public! The whole reason Jesus died is so people could get into heaven! When Eve took the apple or when somehting in genesis happened, the devil took the key to heavens gates(its prob. a metaphor)! So no, not one person could go to heaven! But there was a upper and lower hell (story i heard could also be translated into purgatory maybe but i never heard that word used so idk)! Upper hell was a paradise but with is was very lonely or somehting, anyways some people went there and other went to the other place. I dont know if that is true or not but thats what my moms churches preacher said! Anyways thats not the point, the point is noone went to heaven till Jesus died!

Masta,

What sort of church do you attend?

Well, I heard from a christian that Judas was infact doing Jesus a favor by turning him into the Roman Soldiers and that his real sin was not believing that he could be forgiven of his sins (so he killed himself).

Why couldn't it be as simple as being overtaken with grief over something we have done? Favor or no....

So no, not one person could go to heaven!

I do remember hearing that somewhere, but different reasoning behind it. If I find my notes, I'll comment further.

I do remember hearing that somewhere, but different reasoning behind it. If I find my notes, I'll comment further.

FUCKING IGNORANT PEOPLE, LISTEN!!! What the hell would the point be for Jesus dying on the cross, if everyone who could have gone to heaven already did? What the hell would be the point of going and getting a key out of hell and having alll the angels rescue the lost souls? Was a key he droped to his car down in hell? NO it was fucking the key for heavens gates! WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK TRHE WHOLE ADAM AND EVE STORY WAS FOR WITH THE APPLE?

Wow athiest scum quite spouting out your ignorance acting like you know everything!!! YOU DONT YOUR FUCKING RETARDED AND PISSING ME OFF!!!

PS. Sorry for quoting you it wasnt directed at you!

FUCKING IGNORANT PEOPLE, LISTEN!!! What the hell would the point be for Jesus dying on the cross, if everyone who could have gone to heaven already did?

One point could have been to show the disciples that there was something after physical death and for them to testify to others about that. An affirmation of the true fullness of life, if you will...

If Judas' turning in Jesus led him to suicide, he commited it out of an act of sorrow, grief, and apology. As he could not physically apologize to the Messiah, he instead killed himself, as a sacrifice much like that of Jesus' (In his own eyes). Judas is in heaven, he's sitting right next to me.

Wow athiest scum quite spouting out your ignorance acting like you know everything!!! YOU DONT YOUR FUCKING RETARDED AND PISSING ME OFF!!!

Are you a Christian? I really doesn't look like it to me.

FUCKING IGNORANT PEOPLE, LISTEN!!! What the hell would the point be for Jesus dying on the cross, if everyone who could have gone to heaven already did? What the hell would be the point of going and getting a key out of hell and having alll the angels rescue the lost souls? Was a key he droped to his car down in hell? NO it was fucking the key for heavens gates! WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK TRHE WHOLE ADAM AND EVE STORY WAS FOR WITH THE APPLE?

Wow athiest scum quite spouting out your ignorance acting like you know everything!!! YOU DONT YOUR FUCKING RETARDED AND PISSING ME OFF!!!

PS. Sorry for quoting you it wasnt directed at you!

If I remember correctly (And my compulsory religious education classes seem a long way distant now) Jesus supposedly died for our SINS.

This means that BEFORE Jesus died, Man was assigned to heaven and hell on a purely good/evil basis. Judged on the events of your life.

When Jesus died he cleansed man of his SIN and changed the rules, requiring that you only have to accept Christ in your heart to be saved. REGARDLESS OF ACTIVITIES IN LIFE!

So...Yeah the way I learnt it - before Christ if you murdered someone you went to hell. After Christ if you murdered someone you could repent and still attain paradise

I did NOT understand it as "the gates of heaven were closed for 10,000 years - Sorry come back in 1 AD"

For me, to accept Jesus into your life is the same as accepting love into your life. If you live your life by Jesus, you live your life by love. Jesus was love and everything he did was an expression of that. For you to follow the teachings of Jesus and to follow his example is to experience love, and that is heaven.
Love existed before Jesus walked the Earth.

Masta,

What sort of church do you attend?

Don't take him seriously, you'll just embolden him. Unfortunately when his parents let him use the computer for hooked on phonics, they don't lock down the internet.

If I remember correctly (And my compulsory religious education classes seem a long way distant now) Jesus supposedly died for our SINS.

This means that BEFORE Jesus died, Man was assigned to heaven and hell on a purely good/evil basis. Judged on the events of your life.

When Jesus died he cleansed man of his SIN and changed the rules, requiring that you only have to accept Christ in your heart to be saved. REGARDLESS OF ACTIVITIES IN LIFE!

So...Yeah the way I learnt it - before Christ if you murdered someone you went to hell. After Christ if you murdered someone you could repent and still attain paradise

I did NOT understand it as "the gates of heaven were closed for 10,000 years - Sorry come back in 1 AD"


Well if that was the case then Jesus wouldnt have been a good thing!!! Because now it doesnt matter if your good you cant go to heaven unless you accept Jesus!!! Your logic is flawed, in the bible when jesus dies it says he went into hell to get the key to the kingdom of heaven! Which was lost when Eve took the apple!!! Dying for our sins would be pointless if you went to heaven already anyways!!!

in the bible when jesus dies it says he went into hell to get the key to the kingdom of heaven!

*thumbs bible* nope still can't find that.

Ohhhhh my bad, it isn't there and you're just a troll...silly me, how could I forget.


You're probably thinking (oops is that a contradiction in terms?)of either that bit in Job or Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.

Or maybe the pretty pictures in your child's comic of the 'Revelation'? (kinda sound like it with the 'key and pit' bit).

In which case it just proves how little you actually understand.

it doesnt matter if your good you cant go to heaven unless you accept Jesus!!!

I'm pretty sure that's the entire basis of your faith you moron.

I'm pretty sure that's the entire basis of your faith you moron.

sigh** you read wrong! what i was saying that if we could go to heaven before just for being good then Jesus would be pointless! For the fact that now the good people would go to hell! that whole thing was wrong!!! it was your logic!

To the OP, I'm pretty sure that Judas went to hell, because there isn't any record of him repenting and actually accepting Jesus as his savior, but as was already mentioned its not our place to judge.

Masta Thief, just as we look back to what Jesus did and trust in him to forgive sin, the people before he died and was resurrected looked ahead and trusted that he would come and forgive sin. Jesus died for all sin, past, present, and future. In Genesis it talks about how Abraham was saved. As for the key thing, I don't have any idea what your talking about, but Jesus descended into hell after he died to proclaim victory.

Slightly off topic but perhaps of interest, there is a body of evidence that suggest that parts of the Gospel Of John were infact written by Judas. Or that he was the eye witness source for parts of it.

But then again there's more evidence that it was lazarus.

Thats so funny, I was thinking of making a thread asking this question.

PD.

Surely the idea of an all merciful and all forgiving diety is in direct conflict with the idea of being tormented in hell for all eternity?

I was raised a catholic just so ya's know.. And the more I try to work out the big questions for myself the more I reject the dogma. I believe in treating each other as you would like to be treated, in the virtues of peace, compassion, wisdom and love but I dont see these as jesus' teaching.. just rather something that should be plainly obvious for everyone :)

Surely the idea of an all merciful and all forgiving diety is in direct conflict with the idea of being tormented in hell for all eternity?

I was raised a catholic just so ya's know.. And the more I try to work out the big questions for myself the more I reject the dogma. I believe in treating each other as you would like to be treated, in the virtues of peace, compassion, wisdom and love but I dont see these as jesus' teaching.. just rather something that should be plainly obvious for everyone :)

QFT.

Masta Theif you do know that the bible mentions nothing simliar to suicide = hell. Infact it implies the opposite.

QFT.

Masta Theif you do know that the bible mentions nothing simliar to suicide = hell. Infact it implies the opposite.

Actually the bible doesn't mention 'hell' at all...not the way most christians would understand the term anyway.

Actually the bible doesn't mention 'hell' at all...not the way most christians would understand the term anyway.

Er... Matthew 3:10-12, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 25:41-46, Matthew 5:22, Luke 3:9, Luke 13:22-28, and John 15:1-6 talk about a place of suffering in a place of everlasting fire where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I don't know if anyone has already said this (I got bored of reading through the rubbish) but:

In the ethiopian christian church, Judas is a Saint because they recognised the importance of his role in the whole "dying for our sins" thing. Judas sacrificed himself.

Er... Matthew 3:10-12, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 25:41-46, Matthew 5:22, Luke 3:9, Luke 13:22-28, and John 15:1-6 talk about a place of suffering in a place of everlasting fire where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sometimes....that too is here.

As a side note...

I always wondered about the "gnashing" of teeth and what that meant until someone told me that back then as a sign of anger people would "gnash" their teeth at each other.

Er... Matthew 3:10-12, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 25:41-46, Matthew 5:22, Luke 3:9, Luke 13:22-28, and John 15:1-6 talk about a place of suffering in a place of everlasting fire where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I just checked out those parts. Maybe I'm reading a different bible to you, but I didn't see any evidence of the kind of hell christianity preaches.
I still believe hell is a bad state of mind that can be escaped though experience and wisdom, love etc.

I just checked out those parts. Maybe I'm reading a different bible to you, but I didn't see any evidence of the kind of hell christianity preaches.
I still believe hell is a bad state of mind that can be escaped though experience and wisdom, love etc.

Are you sure you read them? I used the KJB, and combined, the passages make hell out to be a place of everlasting fire and suffering...

Are you sure you read them? I used the KJB, and combined, the passages make hell out to be a place of everlasting fire and suffering...

Good news Bible.
One thing tho, It may say the fire is everlasting, but does it say that you're stay there is everlasting?

There are so many ways in which this stuff can be interpreted I think it's best not to listen to anyone else and just see what it means to you.

There are so many ways in which this stuff can be interpreted I think it's best not to listen to anyone else and just see what it means to you.

But wasn't satan banished to hell, and according to the Bible he still exists?

But wasn't satan banished to hell, and according to the Bible he still exists?

No that's what some christians believe.

Neither Satan or 'hell' (as in the classic sense) are to be found in the bible. You have to go outside the canon for that.

But wasn't satan banished to hell, and according to the Bible he still exists?

The closest I've found so far is this:

Matthew 25:41
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.



But, when I also think of fire, I think of passions:




Isaiah 33:14
14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"



What are your passions? Are you consumed by something that burns day and night?



Yet...was not God often seen as "fire"?




And when I think of everlasting, I think of this:

Daniel 12:2
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


Who sleeps in the dust? Only the dead, or do the living?

I also think of everlasting as the inheritance of "life" and what is handed down to others.

Yet there is also this verse:

2 Samuel 14:14


14 Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him.



Do we actually know what these ways are?



I don't believe in hell as a place, but rather as a manner of being. The same goes for heaven too.




I am a questioner of what is traditionally taught. Research words, meanings of words, connections of words, and how they might have been used differently so long ago.

[these bits and pieces might not make sense to others, but they do to me]

No that's what some christians believe.

Neither Satan or 'hell' (as in the classic sense) are to be found in the bible. You have to go outside the canon for that.

The Bible refers to the archangel Lucifer. You'd assume that someone who believed himmself worthy of worship and a throne would choose his own name after falling from God's grace. I'm sure the angels in heaven who battled Lucifer and those who followed him gave him nicknames after defeat. Every angel that followed Lucifer was banished from Heaven.

The Bible refers to the archangel Lucifer. You'd assume that someone who believed himmself worthy of worship and a throne would choose his own name after falling from God's grace. I'm sure the angels in heaven who battled Lucifer and those who followed him gave him nicknames after defeat. Every angel that followed Lucifer was banished from Heaven.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, on your right you can now see the remains of the inn where the Good Samaritan took the wounded victim to recover"

If Judas asked God for forgiveness then he went to heaven because God forgives all sins.
If he did not then he went to hell.

The Bible says "And all of the apostles shall be in Heaven with me" so Yes, he is.

Also, he did repent for what he had done before death.

I believe the Bible makes him out to be worse than he was.

The Bible says "And all of the apostles shall be in Heaven with me" .

Excuse my ignorance, but where does it say that?

i think i will leave the judging up to God.

I heard somewhere, recently, that this is actually the position of some (or perhaps several) major Christian sects - Nobody but God can know, for sure who is going to go to hell.

Although, it occurs to me that there is one contradiction to this - during his crucifixion, in Luke 23:39-43, Jesus says that one of the thieves being crucified by him will go to Heaven, for sure. I think this is the only case of Jesus saying that, but it is an interesting exception.

But if anyone could be the exception, I guess it would be Jesus.

256, for most Christians that's not a contradiction because to them Jesus is God, as is the Holy Spirit (it's that whole trinity thing).

If Judas asked God for forgiveness then he went to heaven because God forgives all sins.
If he did not then he went to hell.

And who are you to say he went to hell?

Come on guys, just because the Bible or some old popes said some things does not make it true. Not everything in the Bible is true, and you really shouldn't take it literally. The creation story from Genesis was made when the Israelites were captives in Babylon. They actually borrowed a lot of it from the Babylonian creation story. There really was no "garden" of Eden, they just came up with the story to try to explain God and their creation. There was no "Adam and Eve", there was no apple, and there certainly was no key to heaven.

These little rules that are in Christianity like not asking forgiveness will send you to hell are flawed. Only God knows what will send you to heaven or hell (or if hell even exists). I can't emphasize enough that you can't believe everything that is in the Bible or the ways priests and popes analyze the Bible. To me it's obvious that the point of the Bible is to show us how to live a good life (virtues, helping people, etc.) not to say who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

And in response to the Judas question, I don't believe he went to hell. Judas couldn't have been an evil man in his heart or else he wouldn't have been an apostle. He would not have followed Jesus if he didn't believe his message. Then something went wrong and he betrayed Jesus. But could any of you really blame him for killing himself? If God is a merciful God, I think that he forgave Judas.

i would say heaven, because
1. judas was one of the disciples and he beleived in jesus so that makes him saved

2. it seems like the fact that he betrayed jesus was already known by jesus, kinda like it was his destiny. that would be fucked up if they held that against him if the will of god was that he was going to betray jesus anyways

man ya'll niggaz needz to read dante's divine comedy...mostly da niggaz on page 1 cuz i didn't wanna read all the way through to the end...

I was raised as a Catholic, but I'm currently a non practicing one. I attended a catholic school up to 6th grade, and was always told that Judas went to hell for betraying Jesus and killing himself. These are some big points, but without Judas, Jesus would never have gotten arrested and crucified, and He never would have saved us from our sins. Also, I don't really blame the poor guy for killing himself, I mean he was basically responsible for Jesus' death. Do you think God could have "bent the rules" and let Judas into Heaven?

What are your opinions?

if god bent the rules it would mean that he doesnt exist cause he said he cannot sin to break a rule is sin
also judas could have been goin to hell anyway and so god used him to help save every one else

if god bent the rules it would mean that he doesnt exist cause he said he cannot sin to break a rule is sin
also judas could have been goin to hell anyway and so god used him to help save every one else

Are you serious?

God can do whatever the hell God wants. God makes the rules, he can't break his own rules. Also, why would Judas be "goin to hell anyway"? The only reason people would think he might go to hell is because God "used him to help save everyone else."

Use your brain.

Although, it occurs to me that there is one contradiction to this - during his crucifixion, in Luke 23:39-43, Jesus says that one of the thieves being crucified by him will go to Heaven, for sure. I think this is the only case of Jesus saying that, but it is an interesting exception.



Why do you think it is that only Luke wrote of this? Was he privy to something that the others weren't, or is that simply an insight into the mind of Luke? (I think it's the latter.) That one can do wrong, acknowledge his wrong doings and accept his fate as being "just", whilst another seeks only to escape his fate and thereby rejecting that "justice" (or responsibility/consequences)?

Also, how do you think that contrasts with the crucifixion of the innocent? That somehow the guilty can become equal?

Luke saw only two out of the three as being worthy of "paradise", and as such, the other "escaped" paradise. Maybe it was to set a precedent for the awareness of the acceptance of imperfection?

I suppose your guess is as good as mine as to why it is only found in Luke. But I find it an interesting twist.

i would say heaven, because
1. judas was one of the disciples and he beleived in jesus so that makes him saved

It would have been easy for him to believe in Jesus, seeing as how he followed him round and talked to him.

Wether he beieved he was the son of god - thats another thing altogether....

Judas put Jesus the saviour to death.

Apparently a few guys knew him personally.

That was an example; in the modern age murder of another while it is wrong, it may be done. If one could be for instance the Angel of Death, Azreal, such could claim authority of an intire race. In such a case death may come in many many forms. Death occurs in the life of evry living creature and if you believe in the occurance of life breeding life the death of Jesus was a written 'cleansing'...????



Originally Posted by 256

Although, it occurs to me that there is one contradiction to this - during his crucifixion, in Luke 23:39-43, Jesus says that one of the thieves being crucified by him will go to Heaven, for sure. I think this is the only case of Jesus saying that, but it is an interesting exception.


Why do you think it is that only Luke wrote of this? Was he privy to something that the others weren't, or is that simply an insight into the mind of Luke? (I think it's the latter.) That one can do wrong, acknowledge his wrong doings and accept his fate as being "just", whilst another seeks only to escape his fate and thereby rejecting that "justice" (or responsibility/consequences)?

Also, how do you think that contrasts with the crucifixion of the innocent? That somehow the guilty can become equal?

Luke saw only two out of the three as being worthy of "paradise", and as such, the other "escaped" paradise. Maybe it was to set a precedent for the awareness of the acceptance of imperfection?

I suppose your guess is as good as mine as to why it is only found in Luke. But I find it an interesting twist.


Luke was.
Jesus is.....

Maybe this earth is hell and if we ant we can create a planet each so we can all be happy being god ourselves................

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_field_theory