It doesn't make sense to me. There is no logical reason to subscribe to a religion. So why would god reward those who just go with the crowd and out of a neurotic fear of death and hell follow a doctrine set forth by a religion and worship the god, and punish those who use logic? It just seems like a bunch of mental masturbation to me and a once powerful and useful political tool.

What do you stand to lose?

What does 'logical reason' mean anyway? And why is a logical reason better than an illogical one?

What do you stand to lose?

That's called Pascal's Wager, and it's long since been refuted. Look it up.

What do you stand to lose?

My fucking precious time. I only have a measly 60-80 years. IF I'M LUCKY.

I don't want to waste my life subscribing to a set of idiotic beliefs.

What does 'logical reason' mean anyway? And why is a logical reason better than an illogical one?
A "logical reason" is a reason that is valid; i.e., the reason works with the action. It would be logical to eat an apple when you are starving, for instance, but to eat an apple for the purpose of eating an orange is not logical - the action does not follow from the given reason.

A logical reason is better because, as we see, illogical reasons do not bring about the desired results. Assuming it's not better, though, you're still left with a problem: why is an illogical reason better? Why is God rewarding illogic as opposed to logic? Are the insane beloved of God? I think it gets much more problematic than that - for instance, why is the world logical then, or why does God bother with logic in the Bible - but I hope you see my point.

What does 'logical reason' mean anyway? And why is a logical reason better than an illogical one?

...Because it makes sense....

and in response to the orginial post, you made shitty points. According to what you said I should start doing crack b/c the majority doesnt do it. Its ok to follow a crowd if its the right thing. What religion says is that it's the right thing so everyone should follow it. However this is shit and should be ignored. Your problem is your ignoring religion for the wrong reason.

That's called Pascal's Wager, and it's long since been refuted. Look it up.

I know. And one can't choose to believe either, it's like choosing to love

Makes me wonder why I even said that, it has nothing to do with the thread when you think of it

God rewards belief because.. he doesn't need a fucking reason, God's a kid with a frog and a rock, he doesn't need a reason to smash the frog into a paste if he feels like it. None of it makes sense and it's not made to make sense. Just ignore it until you die, keeps you sane

...Because it makes sense....

and in response to the orginial post, you made shitty points. According to what you said I should start doing crack b/c the majority doesnt do it. Its ok to follow a crowd if its the right thing. What religion says is that it's the right thing so everyone should follow it. However this is shit and should be ignored. Your problem is your ignoring religion for the wrong reason.
You say I make shitty points and then come at me with this garbage? When did I ever say that the majority of people being part of a religion is a reason for not being part of it? Also, a more accurate analogy would be you shouldn't smoke cigarettes/huff gasoline/what ever just because everyone else is doing it and it feels good. I wasn't even trying to make points. I was asking a question regarding something that doesn't make sense to me when it comes to religion. I believe you are either a moron or smoking crack cocaine.

Logic leaves you cold and with no meaning to anything. Faith brings you everything.

I have witnessed it first hand. You have to if you want to understand it.

Logic leaves you cold and with no meaning to anything.

Au contraire, mon internet frère!

Let's quickly define "meaning", establish how subjective it is, then we can re-word your statement in a more sensible manner.

:)

Logic leaves you cold and with no meaning to anything. Faith brings you everything.


So many Christians say that to me, as though I'm some icy hearted monster for not believing in god.

Who the hell are you to call us cold and devoid of meaning? My life is fantastic and fulfilling one and I construct my own meaning for my existence.

And the warm fuzzy feeling comes from knowing that I'm not a deluded fanatic whiling away their years on earth waiting for the afterlife.

So many Christians say that to me, as though I'm some icy hearted monster for not believing in god

That's not what it means at all. Faith basically protects you from the fear of unknown. It's like pretending the guy who just shot 9 guys in a row will skip you for some reason. It's just basic desire for comfort and security, logic won't provide that but instead leaves the burden on your own shoulders. Most people can't carry it

God neither rewards nor punishes (that is Santa Claus's job)--he/she/it/them/whatever is in the business of loving and creating, and loves us all equally.

Logic leaves me cold and with no meaning to anything.
Fixed.

A "logical reason" is a reason that is valid; i.e., the reason works with the action. It would be logical to eat an apple when you are starving, for instance, but to eat an apple for the purpose of eating an orange is not logical - the action does not follow from the given reason.

In that case, doesn't the fact that religions provide many people with contentment count as a logical reason?

Logic leaves you cold and with no meaning to anything. Faith brings you everything.

I have witnessed it first hand. You have to if you want to understand it.

Stupid bitch, you think that just because I'm able to use logic I don't feel emotion? Eat shit. Faith is nothing more than wishful thinking taken to a ridiculous extreme.

You can't prove any of your assbackward beliefs have any basis in reality, so you chose to set up a strawman of people who don't buy into it in order to feel better about yourself.

You religionist fuckasses are all the same, you know that? You claim to be all about love and happiness and tolerance, but that only lasts so long as a person believes the stupid, illogical bullshit you feed him. As soon as people start thinking their way out of the emotional cage you box them in, they immediately start "missing" something, an utterly intangible, purely emotional state which you of course pull out of your ass. They become the "Other", something to be scorned and insulted because they are not like you.

You think atheists are cold hearted? I am one, and I'm certainly not. You want an emotional response? Here, go fuck yourself. I'm tired of brainless morons like you talking shit about atheists like you have some enlightened "special knowledge" of the universe. You don't. You have assbackward emotionally based beliefs without any evidence to back them up. You have a FEELING, and nothing else.

Undoubtedly you'll come up with some other condescending, bullshit response to this little rant of mine if you even bother to read it, or are able to comprehend it. Go ahead, because history and logic suggests that whatever you type in defense of your senselessness will have nothing to back it up. Your blabbering will be pointless, as always.

Well, I decided to break down and ask a Christian friend about this. Their reply, and I quote was "Man, you just gotta understand that being a true Christian isn't about being afraid to go to hell, it's about loving Jesus. If you only do it to follow the crowd and save your ass, then you are in it for all the wrong reasons. Pass that blunt," end quote.

So, to answer your question, it isn't about living to die, it's about living for Jesus.

Wait, what was the question?

God neither rewards nor punishes (that is Santa Claus's job)--he/she/it/them/whatever is in the business of loving and creating, and loves us all equally.

Could you please prove this as if he were to love us all the same would we all share the same success and failure?

Stupid bitch... Eat shit... You religionist fuckasses are all the same, you know that?...Here, go fuck yourself...brainless morons...


You think atheists are cold hearted? I'm certainly not.


Your verbal venom is SO Masta Thief-ish. Could you not convey your point without stooping to his level and mimicking his ridiculous outbursts? C'mon, man. It doesn't look good for the team.

In that case, doesn't the fact that religions provide many people with contentment count as a logical reason?

Cocaine used to provide me a great deal of contentment. Nevermind the delusions it caused and the addiction that ensued, which made me feel as though I just couldn't maintain or be happy without it.

I guess snorting lines of powder up my nostrils was a perfectly logical thing to do. What an irrational choice I made, to put it away and try to live a life without dependency.

Mercy.

Cocaine used to provide me a great deal of contentment. Nevermind the delusions it caused and the addiction that ensued, which made me feel as though I just couldn't maintain or be happy without it.

I guess snorting lines of powder up my nostrils was a perfectly logical thing to do. What an irrational choice I made, to put it away and try to live a life without dependency.

You are making value judgements here, not logical ones. The opposite of a logical reason can also be logical. As was said by Twisted_Ferret, "A "logical reason" is a reason that is valid; i.e., the reason works with the action". Therefore, what is logical depends on what action you want produced. If you value contentment most, it is logical to stay on the cocaine, however if you value being free from addiction and delusion more than contentment, then cocaine use is illogical.

Regardless, let's look at how this analogy transfers to Christianity. Here, the 'delusions' and 'addiction' are seen by Christians as benefits, only increasing the validity of the logic.

A logical reason is better because, as we see, illogical reasons do not bring about the desired results...I think it gets much more problematic than that - for instance, why is the world logical then

I'm working from a solipsist, inductive-less perspective here, so even when logic appears to work, it does not influence my decision in the least.

Assuming it's not better, though, you're still left with a problem: why is an illogical reason better? Why is God rewarding illogic as opposed to logic? Are the insane beloved of God?...or why does God bother with logic in the Bible - but I hope you see my point.

I don't think illogic is better than logic; hypothetically though, I consider them to be of equal validity.


Of course, this post is just on the off chance that anyone is curious about why I asked "And why is a logical reason better than an illogical one?" I don't want to debate any of this here, because it's not relevant, but anyone can start a new thread if they want to, and I'll debate it there.

Regardless, let's look at how this analogy transfers to Christianity. Here, the 'delusions' and 'addiction' are seen by Christians as benefits, only increasing the validity of the logic.

For this very purpose, let us create a sliding scale then:

Logical........Logical For All The Wrong Reasons........Illogical

Delusions and addiction bring harm upon a person. A person who chooses to bring harm upon themselves (especially if given an alternative choice), are acting illogically. Having the "but it feels good" mentality when judging the logic of your own actions - would that probably fall into the 'Logical For All The Wrong Reasons' category?

For this very purpose, let us create a sliding scale then:

Logical........Logical For All The Wrong Reasons........Illogical

Delusions and addiction bring harm upon a person. A person who chooses to bring harm upon themselves (especially if given an alternative choice), are acting illogically. Having the "but it feels good" mentality when judging the logic of your own actions - would that probably fall into the 'Logical For All The Wrong Reasons' category?

Unless you can provide proof for some kind of objective decider of what is a wrong reason, it seems that your scale is completely subjective; which is quite the opposite to how logic needs to be. Do you have such a proof?

Unless you can provide proof for some kind of objective decider of what is a wrong reason, it seems that your scale is completely subjective; which is quite the opposite to how logic needs to be. Do you have such a proof?

Of course I don't have such a proof. Just that, to me - it seems logical to erect such a scale for my own purposes. It just feels good to be able to pretend in my head regarding the objectivity of right/wrong reasons. I'm being logical, here. Can't you see?

Of course I don't have such a proof. Just that, to me - it seems logical to erect such a scale for my own purposes. It just feels good to be able to pretend in my head regarding the objectivity of right/wrong reasons. I'm being logical, here. Can't you see?

Actually, according to your scale, you are being Logical For All The Wrong Reasons..

Looking from my perspective though, yes, your motivations to build a scale were logical, however, being able to come up with logical reasons for subscribing to theory 'X' does not require that 'X' is true.

I'm pleased that you could humor me enough to acknowledge my fictitious "sliding scale", fallinghouse.

I'm still going to have to side with my favourite social satirist on this issue. To quote the good man directly:

"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable."

H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

In that case, doesn't the fact that religions provide many people with contentment count as a logical reason?
If contentment is your only goal, yes. I would contend, though, that contentment is temporary and that believing in something false would have harmful implications in the longer run; so if God's aim is to reward those who find contentment, there are certainly better people than those who do not try to find if they are believing in something false!

I'm working from a solipsist, inductive-less perspective here, so even when logic appears to work, it does not influence my decision in the least.
It does, or you wouldn't be able to do anything except by chance. :p

I don't think illogic is better than logic; hypothetically though, I consider them to be of equal validity.
Don't forget the original point - if God is rewarding people for being illogical, that must mean that He considers illogic superior.

(Can you have validity without logic? Pointless to debate this, though! You can't have a discussion without logic. :p)

If contentment is your only goal, yes. I would contend, though, that contentment is temporary and that believing in something false would have harmful implications in the longer run;

The contentment is only temporary if the person stops believing. Believing in something false may have harmful implications, but they don't believe in something that is necessarily false, only unprovable.

so if God's aim is to reward those who find contentment, there are certainly better people than those who do not try to find if they are believing in something false!

The Christian God's aim is to reward those who follow his commands, not those who find contentment. But, I suspect contentment is the reason people follow the commands.

It does, or you wouldn't be able to do anything except by chance.

Negative consequences do not change true to false. ;)

I don't do anything except by chance. In fact, I don't even know what the possibilities are. I'm just kind of gliding along in a state of not-knowing, not wanting to know, not being able to know.


Don't forget the original point - if God is rewarding people for being illogical, that must mean that He considers illogic superior.

Arguing from within logic, I would say that perhaps there are times when God thinks illogic should be used and times when it shouldn't. Why would he sometimes do this? I've no idea, and most Christians don't pretend to see into the mind of God either.

Arguing from outside of logic, I would say that it is fine for illogic to be superior and equal to logic at the same time.

(Can you have validity without logic? Pointless to debate this, though! You can't have a discussion without logic. )

Quite. ;)

So, for this thread, I'll contain myself to logic from now on.

This thread is weak.

The contentment is only temporary if the person stops believing. Believing in something false may have harmful implications, but they don't believe in something that is necessarily false, only unprovable.
That's where the illogic comes in; everything is essentially unprovable, it's just that some things appear more likely than others. You might believe that the Teapot God will catch you as you run off a cliff, despite having broken your bones several times before trying this stunt. You're being illogical and it's bringing you harm.

The Christian God's aim is to reward those who follow his commands, not those who find contentment.
Well, not if you say that he rewards illogic because it brings contentment. Disregarding the contentment issue, you could say that he rewards illogic because those who practice it tend to follow his commands... though if you don't practice logic at all, it's kind of hard to follow anything!

Negative consequences do not change true to false. ;)
It appears, through logic, that clicking the submit button will post your message on Totse. Therefore, you do it. Presumably. Maybe you're not actually trying to post! :eek:

Arguing from within logic, I would say that perhaps there are times when God thinks illogic should be used and times when it shouldn't. Why would he sometimes do this? I've no idea, and most Christians don't pretend to see into the mind of God either.
So God is really still rewarding illogic. Perhaps he's illogical sometimes, too. :o

Arguing from outside of logic
:p

That's where the illogic comes in; everything is essentially unprovable, it's just that some things appear more likely than others. You might believe that the Teapot God will catch you as you run off a cliff, despite having broken your bones several times before trying this stunt. You're being illogical and it's bringing you harm.

1. You are mixing up the arguments I'm making in this thread. I'm saying that subscribing to religion is perfectly logical as it brings contentment. The whole thing about illogic being equal to logic is only needed to apply if subscribing to religion is not logical, arguing against both beliefs simultaneously is pointless, because I don't hold both simultaneously.

2. I'm not arguing that all unprovable beliefs will be safe, but some are, and I say Christianity is one of them. How many Christians do you see jumping off cliffs? I doubt the statistics would be much different to non-Christians. Are you saying that cliff jumping is a part of Christianity?


Well, not if you say that he rewards illogic because it brings contentment. Disregarding the contentment issue, you could say that he rewards illogic because those who practice it tend to follow his commands

Your mixing up arguments again. I'm not arguing that he's rewarding illogic in this section. I'm saying that if Christianity makes people content, then it is logical to believe it.


It appears, through logic, that clicking the submit button will post your message on Totse. Therefore, you do it. Presumably. Maybe you're not actually trying to post!

I could argue against this, but as I said earlier, it's not relevant here. Feel free to start a new thread about it.

So God is really still rewarding illogic. Perhaps he's illogical sometimes, too.

Perhaps indeed.

Note: This section is the line of argument following on from if I am wrong about believing in christianity being logical.

1. You are mixing up the arguments I'm making in this thread. I'm saying that subscribing to religion is perfectly logical as it brings contentment. The whole thing about illogic being equal to logic is only needed to apply if subscribing to religion is not logical, arguing against both beliefs simultaneously is pointless, because I don't hold both simultaneously.
I'm not arguing against you per se; I'm trying to defend the original assertion that God is rewarding being illogical. The only thing the paragraph you quoted was intended to show is that false (or unsupported) beliefs are illogical to believe in if you seek contentment.

2. I'm not arguing that all unprovable beliefs will be safe, but some are, and I say Christianity is one of them. How many Christians do you see jumping off cliffs? I doubt the statistics would be much different to non-Christians. Are you saying that cliff jumping is a part of Christianity?
Yes, I'm saying cliff-jumping is a part of Christianity. I'm glad you caught that; most people would just assume it was some example or something. :rofl:

Your mixing up arguments again. I'm not arguing that he's rewarding illogic in this section. I'm saying that if Christianity makes people content, then it is logical to believe it.
See above.

Ok, glad we got that all sorted out then...

The only thing the paragraph you quoted was intended to show is that false (or unsupported) beliefs are illogical to believe in if you seek contentment.

I see, well it doesn't show that all unsupported beliefs are illogical if you want contentment, only that one particular unsupported belief is. Can you show how Christianity in particular is illogical in the search for contentment?


Yes, I'm saying cliff-jumping is a part of Christianity. I'm glad you caught that; most people would just assume it was some example or something. :rofl:

I thought it was an example, but well, there are some pretty crazy people on the internet. . . it's always best to make sure. ;)

What does it matter whether or not you believe?

If a god exists in the sense that it is the driving force of existence, then we are all doing God's work whether or not we acknowledge it as such...kind of like little Timmy working for the mob because the sandwich shop he works in is a front for a Boss.

If one doesn't, then we've still each chosen our own individual destinies, whether or not we falsely ascribe our choices to an external entity's will.

Then of course, there's the god that allows volition...in which case, all power is derived from god, but the mechanisms we operate with are our own choices.

No matter what the case actually is, disbelief and belief make absolutely nil difference on the reality. If your choices are determined by god, then you are its servant even if you don't believe; if your choices are yours alone, then you're either fucked up or doing it right even if you believe yourself to be serving a god. No matter the case, there is no excuse. It's either you or god that controls YOU...does it really matter which you believe?

Argue about something worthwhile and conducive to personal and social advancement? Like plagues? Famines? Wars? Droughts?

Stupid bitch, you think that just because I'm able to use logic I don't feel emotion? Eat shit. Faith is nothing more than wishful thinking taken to a ridiculous extreme.

You can't prove any of your assbackward beliefs have any basis in reality, so you chose to set up a strawman of people who don't buy into it in order to feel better about yourself.

You religionist fuckasses are all the same, you know that? You claim to be all about love and happiness and tolerance, but that only lasts so long as a person believes the stupid, illogical bullshit you feed him. As soon as people start thinking their way out of the emotional cage you box them in, they immediately start "missing" something, an utterly intangible, purely emotional state which you of course pull out of your ass. They become the "Other", something to be scorned and insulted because they are not like you.

You think atheists are cold hearted? I am one, and I'm certainly not. You want an emotional response? Here, go fuck yourself. I'm tired of brainless morons like you talking shit about atheists like you have some enlightened "special knowledge" of the universe. You don't. You have assbackward emotionally based beliefs without any evidence to back them up. You have a FEELING, and nothing else.

Undoubtedly you'll come up with some other condescending, bullshit response to this little rant of mine if you even bother to read it, or are able to comprehend it. Go ahead, because history and logic suggests that whatever you type in defense of your senselessness will have nothing to back it up. Your blabbering will be pointless, as always.

Are you getting so defensive, or is it you rejecting ascension on some level and needing to deny it because you fear the ascension may do harm, when you are doing harm to yourself?

NO U STUPID BITCH UR RETARDED WTF R U TALKING ABOUT -oh wait , you're righ- SHUT THE FUCK UP IDIOT!!!

What does it matter whether or not you believe?

If a god exists in the sense that it is the driving force of existence, then we are all doing God's work whether or not we acknowledge it as such...kind of like little Timmy working for the mob because the sandwich shop he works in is a front for a Boss.

If one doesn't, then we've still each chosen our own individual destinies, whether or not we falsely ascribe our choices to an external entity's will.

Then of course, there's the god that allows volition...in which case, all power is derived from god, but the mechanisms we operate with are our own choices.

No matter what the case actually is, disbelief and belief make absolutely nil difference on the reality. If your choices are determined by god, then you are its servant even if you don't believe; if your choices are yours alone, then you're either fucked up or doing it right even if you believe yourself to be serving a god. No matter the case, there is no excuse. It's either you or god that controls YOU...does it really matter which you believe?

Argue about something worthwhile and conducive to personal and social advancement? Like plagues? Famines? Wars? Droughts?

I'm not an expert with the free will argument, but im sure you can find dozens of christians that can point out fallacies in your claims all over totse :D. To start, God allows choices, and he doesn't control you, if you believe some people. However, what you believe is what you believe, so if you really think god is just controlling us all, then the christian argument would be "then what is our purpose"? Your idea is like working for 6 days straight without getting paid for it (i.e. Genesis). Anyway, dont debate this with me (you can tell i dont make good points anyway ;) ), ask a Christian :p

Logic leaves you cold and with no meaning to anything. Faith brings you everything.

I have witnessed it first hand. You have to if you want to understand it.

COMPLETELY The opposite. I have absolutely NO idea how you dumbshits rationalize that being part of some toga wearing faggots big experiment brings MEANING to life. If the Abrahamic god is real, then I might as well kill myself now because there no reason to live for there is nothing to discover. 'God did it' takes all the mystery out of existence and makes everything pointless.

COMPLETELY The opposite. I have absolutely NO idea how you dumbshits rationalize that being part of some toga wearing faggots big experiment brings MEANING to life. If the Abrahamic god is real, then I might as well kill myself now because there no reason to live for there is nothing to discover. 'God did it' takes all the mystery out of existence and makes everything pointless.

There certainly is a great rush of excitement when in the process of secular education without the fear of a vengeful god behind your back, I greatly prefer the excitement of knowledge to the complacency of religious life, but results may vary depending on what you value.

So many Christians say that to me, as though I'm some icy hearted monster for not believing in god.

Who the hell are you to call us cold and devoid of meaning? My life is fantastic and fulfilling one and I construct my own meaning for my existence.

And the warm fuzzy feeling comes from knowing that I'm not a deluded fanatic whiling away their years on earth waiting for the afterlife.

Good post.

Lets just leave it at this:

Religious people cannot prove God's existence.

Athiest people cannot disprove God's existence.

Each of the beliefs give people comfort and contentment, even if it is supposedly, according to the other, for the wrong reasons. The point is, unless the person chooses to see those reasons, it DOES provide contentment and comfort. All of you who have to try to ruin the other person's contentment and comfort must have empty and unfulfilling lives, as it takes someone like this to try to destroy someone else's happiness.

Lets just leave it at this:

Religious people cannot prove God's existence.

Athiest people cannot disprove God's existence.

Each of the beliefs give people comfort and contentment, even if it is supposedly, according to the other, for the wrong reasons. The point is, unless the person chooses to see those reasons, it DOES provide contentment and comfort. All of you who have to try to ruin the other person's contentment and comfort must have empty and unfulfilling lives, as it takes someone like this to try to destroy someone else's happiness.

Actually I would have been much happier had somebody introduced me to the illogics of Christianity earlier in life, but some people are just made to be fanatics, so some--lets call them atheist missionaries--may be doing others a favor, but they definitely don't want to ruin their lives.

Actually I would have been much happier had somebody introduced me to the illogics of Christianity earlier in life, but some people are just made to be fanatics, so some--lets call them atheist missionaries--may be doing others a favor, but they definitely don't want to ruin their lives.

you say illogics, but some would say that your current belief system is illogic, based on what they believe.

You cannot force your beliefs and values on everyone else and expect them to be happy. I had that happen to me and it took me a good while to sort out what I believed and what I didnt. However, I had to do it, no one could have done it for me.

What you advocate as atheist missionaries are just as bad as the christians that preach to random strangers on the street corner.

you say illogics, but some would say that your current belief system is illogic, based on what they believe.

You cannot force your beliefs and values on everyone else and expect them to be happy. I had that happen to me and it took me a good while to sort out what I believed and what I didnt. However, I had to do it, no one could have done it for me.

What you advocate as atheist missionaries are just as bad as the christians that preach to random strangers on the street corner.

That's true, and it is all subjective, hence the subjective tone of my post :p.

Of course you can't force your beliefs on someone, and I know very few atheists that do that, at least publicly, I, for example, rarely discuss my religious views (I'm a public agnostic), except on bbss and forums because they contain a certain anonymity, and if you don't want my beliefs, then just exit the page. How many atheists go door to door saying "My name is [insert name here], and today I would like to talk to you about your conversion to atheism". JWs and Mormons do this all the time, if that's not forcing your belifs on others, I don't know what is...

I don't advocate atheist missionaries (in the missionary sense described in the quote above), and there is a ridiculously small percentage of atheists that would fit the actual missionary role (we prefer the InterwebZ). Atheists that do go about preaching the above quote (i.e. the RRS) are hated by a great deal of their fellow brethren, including myself, one only needs to look at the Atheists & Agnostics forum on MySpace to see this, few support such conversions, they give atheism a bad name. I do, however, support a rational atheism that doesn't go door to door making people feel uncofortable and taking up the airwaves when I could be watching something meaningful. An argument that makes others think is the best way to convert, and many other atheists would agree.

Hope that cleared it up.

It did. I took what you said to mean that you advocate behavior like that.

I personally detest those fucks who go door to door, not because they want you to convert, but because they are some of the pushiest and closed-minded people I have ever met. When I see them coming up now, I grab my shotgun and open the door, just so I wont have to deal with their bullshit.

They stopped coming to my house way back when the rest of my family was religious, a simple "we already live a good Xian life" suffices. I don't know what I'd say now if one appeared at my door, hmmmm...

it is "faith"

you are "rewarded" for being blind sheep that follow what other people tell you to follow.