Okay, I don't really know how to start this, it's a thought i've been carying around quite some time now, just wanted to share it.

God created everything, the earth, the trees, the animals, men, everything. Now, wether you go to hell or heaven, has to do with your behavour on earth, did you study medication and found a cure for cancer? Did you go on muderers rampages? The first would obviously get you an instant ticket to heaven, the second, you would go to hell.

Now, god created everything, thus he must have created the brains of both the Murder, and the Doctor. Free will you say? Well, since god created everything, he must have created that little part of the brain, which caused the murder, to go apeshit crazy and kill people. Now, what i do not comprehend is that god would send the 'bad' people to hell and punish them for an enternity, when he himself, created them, since he made EVERYTHING.

'We have free will, we can choose for ourselfs what we want to do'.
Obviously, the concept of BOTH God and free will is retarded, since god CREATED us, we are, as he made us to be, hence we do not have free will, this can not be argued.
Let me explain;
Even if we have the choice to choose for ourselfs, god made our brain, so he basically made the way we react to different things.

A Christian response...

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/destined.php

That didn't really answer anything, it just avoided the point.

Actually you could find a cure for cancer and save 2 billion lives and still be burned for eternity.

If were assuming the christian god is the real one. Then you will burn if you work on sundays, or believe in another god. Or simply dont believe in any god. If were talking the muslim god, then you go to ell for eating pig and drinking. etc

And free will doesnt come with a set of rules and guide lines.

"You can do whatever you want, but if you dont follow my rules I will fucking torture you for ever"

The only people with free will in that sense are atheists, agnostics and deists.

You see, god is so uber that even though he created the peramiters for us to fuck ourselves up, he knows our choices will be ok.
They might not seem ok to us, but they will to him, because he is god and shit and he is well uber.

All possible paths you may take in life can be known, you have the free will to choose the one you believe to be right, or know to be wrong. You'll take all paths, but not all at once. God would never leave you without a path of richeousness. Even a murderer could have chosen to be a saint, and everyone will be both.

Hell, as far as religion is concerned, is a construct devised by priests trying to control the masses through fear.

Proof? read the first testament and tell me where it even mentions hell.

-In response to the "christian response"-



""The first, and most prevalent, incorrect assumption is that a person who is destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability. You can prove this to yourself. Determine two possible courses of action. They don't have to be big decisions, just any two possible actions. Assign each action to either "heads" or "tails." Flip the coin and do what whatever course chance decided. You can do this as many times as needed to determine that you do, indeed, have free will. Occasionally, do the opposite of what the coins tell you. Has God prevented you from doing anything? No!""

- First he makes a circular argument for the existence of free will. He does not even show how, even if we did have free will, it could be compatible with god's omniscience. The only thing he is doing is arguing for a sort of St. Augustinian compatibilist version of free will, "we can do whatever we will ourselves to do," a tautoloigcally true assertion and which seems to also show that any living being has free will. He tells the reader two flip a coin for decision-making and to do the opposite of what the coin says to do and this somehow PROVES free will. Of course, he never shows how the whole experiment (and you reading his article) is somehow outside of god's predestined plan for you.



""The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?""

- Blatant circular argument assuming free will and rejection that omniscience means predestination.

I would like to state this again:
Even if we have the choice to choose for ourselfs, god made our brain, so he basically made the way we react to different things.

That's my main point. If someone could come up with a decent reply i would love to hear it.

"The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?"

This arguement is so retarded it's not really worth spending time on, but well, im bored.

Again, my argument can be used to explain this.
If, let's say, god created your parents, he also made THEIR brain, so, he made the way they react to different things, which let them to have babies. So he knew they would make babies.

I would like to state this again:
Even if we have the choice to choose for ourselfs, god made our brain, so he basically made the way we react to different things.

That's my main point. If someone could come up with a decent reply i would love to hear it.


Could god create a stone so heavy he couldn't lift it? I'm sure he could do either, I'm sure he could do both at the same time.
So while God created the universe, knowing what would happen, he threw the dice blindly, giving us a chance to solve it by ourselves.
This world is just a waiting room for the afterlife, God only judges man on their willingness to repent at the last moment, I don't think it's possible not to repent in the face of god.

That still didn't answer anything.

He still DID create us, there's no way around that. He made the way every single person thinks.
You're saying he just randomly created our minds? So some people has to suffer for all eternity,
because god didn't bless them with the "right" mind?. Now we're back to where we started.

Mark Twain made an argument (http://ww3.telerama.com/~joseph/wman.html) about the idea of free will and innate potential.

Basically, it doesn't exist.

what about this john 3:16 .......

i believe......... but im still going to mass murder, rape, steal etc. 3:16 is the trump card for any wrong doings. yea i made choices and im not going to burn in hell. lol

That still didn't answer anything.

He still DID create us, there's no way around that. He made the way every single person thinks.
You're saying he just randomly created our minds? So some people has to suffer for all eternity,
because god didn't bless them with the "right" mind?. Now we're back to where we started.

That's because you keep on bringing up hell as a tangible fact rather than a metaphor.

"Pope John Paul II stirred up a theological hornets' nest when he described hell as "more than a physical place," while at the same time calling it "the state of those who freely and definitely separate themselves from God, the source of all life and death."

Hell, he stated, is "not a punishment imposed externally by God." The pontiff's remarks, in which he said the Bible "uses a symbolical language" when it refers to the heat and flames of hell, came after an editorial last summer in an influential Jesuit magazine declared that hell "is not a 'place' but a 'state,' a person's 'state of being,' in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God.""

Source. (http://www.helltruth.com/Home/HathHellNoFury/tabid/253/Default.aspx)

So, the pope says there's no hell. This life on earth is insignificant. It's all about facing the trials of an uncaring universe before returning to god's bosom for eternity.

We are part of God, and he has given us conciousness to do what we like. It would be as if you arm was concious, but still part of you.

That is why if you act against God you're sinning and your life will suck. If you go WITH the rest of your body, everything will be nice and peaceful and easy.

Mark Twain made an argument (http://ww3.telerama.com/~joseph/wman.html) about the idea of free will and innate potential.

Basically, it doesn't exist.

Don't rely on someone else's externalized internal dialog, externalize your own for us.

We are part of God, and he has given us conciousness to do what we like. It would be as if you arm was concious, but still part of you.

That is why if you act against God you're sinning and your life will suck. If you go WITH the rest of your body, everything will be nice and peaceful and easy.

Just because your arm is conscious or aware, doesn't mean it can act freely. The brain is still telling it what to do, just as god (if he is omniscient) has already mapped out everything you are going to do.

Whether or not free will and omniscience can coexist is irrelevant as it is a topic that cannot be answered in any time humans can experience.

We do know that we have free will. Whether or not an omniscient god exists will tell you if the two can coexist, which is obviously not something we can answer.

Just because your arm is conscious or aware, doesn't mean it can act freely. The brain is still telling it what to do, just as god (if he is omniscient) has already mapped out everything you are going to do.

What the hell? Conciousness IS free will. The brain is not the ultimate say so, I know this from personal experience.

Yes He already knows what you'll do, He knows everything. But there are an infinite number of possible universes where everything happens, freewill allows you to choose which one you wish to be in.

What the hell? Conciousness IS free will. The brain is not the ultimate say so, I know this from personal experience.

Yes He already knows what you'll do, He knows everything. But there are an infinite number of possible universes where everything happens, freewill allows you to choose which one you wish to be in.

Consciousness is only a precept for the illusion of free will, look at any modern neuroscience research. Conscious thought actually comes after a thought has occurred or a decision has been made, attempting to justify to ourselves why we made x decision. Just imagine a robot that could internally and vocally speak to itself about its thoughts. But what happens is the robot's internal machine codes make decisions, then pass them onto the internal voice to be made vocal to the robot.

How does that make logical sense?

1) You will either move to Chicago or Miami after graduation.
2) God knows (and is infallible) you will move to Miami.
3) You move to Chicago.

God IS infallible if you want this true free will. And where do you come up with this infinite number of possible universes? and please do show it to me. Moreso, how can it be said that anything happens if 'everything' happens, since the 'choice' to move to city A or city B is also an illusion in our head, since a multitude of other things could happen as well? So 'you' do infinitely many things in infinitely many universes? Then everyone does every possible thing and choice, again, is just an illusion.

Just because your arm is conscious or aware, doesn't mean it can act freely. The brain is still telling it what to do, just as god (if he is omniscient) has already mapped out everything you are going to do.

That is my point, exactly.

Your conception of God is out-dated, askew, unsuitbale for the Aquarian Age.

First of all, there is no heaven or hell--these are states of mind we create for ourselves.

God is not Santa Claus--he/she/it/them/whatever does not reward, punish or judge--just loves and creates.

And while we are all subject to many INFLUENCES, we all are responsible for making our own decisions.

Free will is absolute.

Consciousness is only a precept for the illusion of free will, look at any modern neuroscience research. Conscious thought actually comes after a thought has occurred or a decision has been made, attempting to justify to ourselves why we made x decision. Just imagine a robot that could internally and vocally speak to itself about its thoughts. But what happens is the robot's internal machine codes make decisions, then pass them onto the internal voice to be made vocal to the robot.

How does that make logical sense?

1) You will either move to Chicago or Miami after graduation.
2) God knows (and is infallible) you will move to Miami.
3) You move to Chicago.

God IS infallible if you want this true free will. And where do you come up with this infinite number of possible universes? and please do show it to me. Moreso, how can it be said that anything happens if 'everything' happens, since the 'choice' to move to city A or city B is also an illusion in our head, since a multitude of other things could happen as well? So 'you' do infinitely many things in infinitely many universes? Then everyone does every possible thing and choice, again, is just an illusion.

I think we are just part of one of an infinite amount of universes, wich means our lives and our actions are one of all possibilities wich will (or have) occur(ed). On the other hand, if god exists and is omniscient and he/she/it does know the future, why doesn't he/she/it just send us all straight to heaven or hell, even before we're born.

Heaven might be just as bad as hell, because being consious forever will be the worst torture off all, even if you have everything you want in heaven, you will simply run out of things to do.

Please correct me on my grammar/spelling, i know this isn't sg.

Whenever this is brought up, I like to point to a nice little story, called "Kissing Hank's Ass"

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

We do know that we have free will.

No, "we" don't know that at all. You think you have free will. It seems that we do. You have no way of knowing if that's exactly how we have been predetermined to feel/believe.

I would like to state this again:
Even if we have the choice to choose for ourselfs, god made our brain. . . .

How we react to things is our choice. No one or no thing can compel you to feel happy, sad, or any way else.

Obviously, God made the hardware--or more accurately, God IS the hardware. We pretty much install our own software--or we can, if we choose to reject the programming that the media, business, and government would subject us to.

How we react to things is our choice. No one or no thing can compel you to feel happy, sad, or any way else.



Circular argument :yawn:

How can you say its 'you' that makes you feel happy or sad? Do you get to choose, hmm I'll be happy today and sad tomorrow? Wouldn't everyone choose to always be happy if that were the case? Feelings and emotions such as happiness or sadness just wash over us without any 'choice' being made at all.

Don't rely on someone else's externalized internal dialog, externalize your own for us.

I don't know how long you've been on this forum, but that's typically what Tyrant has done in the past. He may have grown bored or annoyed with having to speak his opinion constantly just to be heard. He's a damned fine poster when he makes his own interior dialog known.

And by the way, that Mark Twain piece was brilliant.

Now, wether you go to hell or heaven, has to do with your behavour on earth, did you study medication and found a cure for cancer? Did you go on muderers rampages? The first would obviously get you an instant ticket to heaven, the second, you would go to hell.

Wrong! A mass-murderer who repents and asks for forgiveness can go to heaven and a wonderful doctor who dies without Jesus Christ will go to hell! People are not saved by their works, only by faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 2:9-31)

Now, god created everything, thus he must have created the brains of both the Murder, and the Doctor. Free will you say? Well, since god created everything, he must have created that little part of the brain, which caused the murder, to go apeshit crazy and kill people. Now, what i do not comprehend is that god would send the 'bad' people to hell and punish them for an enternity, when he himself, created them, since he made EVERYTHING.

'We have free will, we can choose for ourselfs what we want to do'.
Obviously, the concept of BOTH God and free will is retarded, since god CREATED us, we are, as he made us to be, hence we do not have free will, this can not be argued.
Let me explain;
Even if we have the choice to choose for ourselfs, god made our brain, so he basically made the way we react to different things.

God did give us free-will, we can choose to love & obey him or hate & reject him. This is why their is evil in the world, a pre-programmed robot cannot do evil (well, unless it was programmed to).

God gaves us free-will so true love can exist. If you really love someone you'll love them no matter what they do, loving a machine that always does your bidding isn't really love.

You might think then "Well, if God loves us, why does he send people to hell?". God sends no one to hell! God has made it extremely easy to go to heaven by sacrificing his own son for us. Anyone can get to heaven simply by having faith in Jesus Christ. Those who are in hell are there because of their own sin and their rejection of Christ, not God's choosing.

Wrong! A mass-murderer who repents and asks for forgiveness can go to heaven and a wonderful doctor who dies without Jesus Christ will go to hell! People are not saved by their works, only by faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 2:9-31)

God did give us free-will, we can choose to love & obey him or hate & reject him. This is why their is evil in the world, a pre-programmed robot cannot do evil (well, unless it was programmed to).

God gaves us free-will so true love can exist. If you really love someone you'll love them no matter what they do, loving a machine that always does your bidding isn't really love.

You might think then "Well, if God loves us, why does he send people to hell?". God sends no one to hell! God has made it extremely easy to go to heaven by sacrificing his own son for us. Anyone can get to heaven simply by having faith in Jesus Christ. Those who are in hell are there because of their own sin and their rejection of Christ, not God's choosing.

Another circular argument :yawn:

1) Free will exists
__________
ergo,
free will exists!

You're not even making an argument, just assuming your conclusion. Furthermore, we are talking how free wil can exist if god has planned everything out ahead of time. As for your conception of 'true love' existing, again you are assuming that it does exist and we aren't pre-programmed in your premise. As for a robot doing evil, it sure can just look at the (I know its just a movie, but...) I, robot scenario. In fact, any robot programmed to strive for power has in it the ability to do great harm and evil, just as humans are and do.

Thank you for the endorsement, Hex. I was starting to think no one was paying attention at all.

I don't understand why people are so in love with the idea of free will. In tangible reality alone, every decision you make is already based on factors outside of your control.

You have a limitation of college choices based on location, financial stability, the success of your parents, and the degree of discipline and ambition with which you were raised. You go to a restaurant and eat from the menu they give you. Your finances are based on your resume and subsequent job offers, your health is determined by genetic strength and environment, and your mates are based on the social outings you can afford.

Social standing works like this, as does health, business - hell, physics works like this.

Why does everyone vomit at the idea of the rest of the universe - tangible or otherwise - working the same way?

I think it's the ego pains. Admitting that your actions are robotic is a major hit to people who think they're some magnificent uber-special craft work of the One God (I'll call it OG, from now on). They very well might be some craft of a One God...but that old fucker made us robots. Sure, there's part of us that is capable of disobeying...our imagination...but anything we can imagine that disobeys is impossible to apply to the world around us unless all preceding thoughts have been fully realized in the shared world.