After spending two weeks traveling around Tibet I was left with a sour taste in my mouth. The beautiful religious architecture and mountain views are the only reason to visit (unless you intend to go mountain climbing I guess). Everywhere that was not a Chinese Government run tourist trap looked like a slum, far more run down than any other place in China that I visited.

Some would argue that is the fault of the Chinese "occupation" (while Tibetans believe it is an occupation/illegal annexation, China believes that Tibet has always belonged to them) while I observed something different. Every year thousands of Tibetan Buddhists make pilgrimages to important religious sites around the region in order to worship. Often they arrive so tired, hungry and poor that they are forced to beg for money on the steps of the very temple they came to worship. Our guide informed us that even though they were so hungry that they would grab onto your clothes to ask you for money, they would still donate a large portion of their income to the church, sometimes more than half. I would not have a problem with this sort of devoted giving if the church put that money back into the starving community... they don't. We visited a tomb for various religious leaders that had cost 66 million RMB (Yuan)(1USD=7.5RMB) to construct because the entire thing was ordained with precious metals and stones. So let me get this straight, while starving beggars give half their income to the church, the church spends almost 10 million dollars to build a gold plated, jewel encrusted tomb for some of it's high ranking members. Something is not right here.

While I agree that the Chinese "occupation" has been detrimental to the social and economic situation in Tibet, they are far from the only ones to blame. While I absolutely support freedom of religion I also see why the Chinese government tried to oppress Buddhism in Tibet. I seems that the Church is only seeming to make poverty worse in Tibet.

Has any one else visited Tibet? Anyone with an opinion on the matter?

No surprises there

Even the oh so peaceful Lama they gave a Nobel peace prize to as far as I recall was an oppressive leader basked in luxury paid for by his people and just wants to reclaim his position to get all of it back. As far as I'm concerned, Tibet is better off with China

People are horrible creatures

you travelled around tibet for two weeks and think there is a church?

and the entire world see's tibet as occupied territory, the same as palestine.

the guy who replied to you has even less of a clue than you do.

Occupied territories don't have churches? Okay, if you say so. People'll just forget the things they've been taught for generations

man, your just getting more and more retarded. the lack of churches in tibet has nothing to do with chinese occupation, and everything to do with buddhism.

Well sure, church is the wrong word but you're saying they have no "religious" sites at all?

Hahahahahahaha I'm sorry I couldnt help but notice that the OP's username is Chairman Mao.

On Topic:

I agree, and it happens everywhere too like in South America with the Catholic church. Just another one of the problems with organized religion.

Hahahahahahaha I'm sorry I couldnt help but notice that the OP's username is Chairman Mao.

Yeah, that had me laughing when I first read this yesterday. :D Was thinking to myself, "This source might contain a wee bit of bias."

church was used in the context of a central command with control over the religion. not place of worship. buddhism doesn't work like that, sure there are spiritual leaders like the dali lama, but he has no direct say in how the religion is organised. people organise projects, people give whatever, it isn't like the catholic church where they collect donations and allocate funds.

it isn't an "organised" religion.

as for monks on the streets, that is how holy men operate in a society like that. they give all they have and take only what they need. the society supports them, just because they don't collect alot of useless shit doesn't make them starving.

at least, that is how it used to operate. now the chinese are trying to breed out tibetans by exporting shitloads of chinese there. a moderate form of racial clensing. this sudden influx of chinese with no buisness being there has lead to far higher rates of poverty and crime, exactly the image that china wants to present.

im not sure what the deal with the OP is, but he is pretty much completely full of shit.

im not sure what the deal with the OP is, but he is pretty much completely full of shit.

Well someone gets the money from the monks and uses it to build gold plated tombs for the religious leaders that really don't even pretend to be important. Or was that a lie?

are you the OP's second account or are you just fucked in the head?

OP made a claim and I'm asking your interpretation, does that make me "fucked in the head"?

You confirmed that the monks give bulk of their possessions away and it's not a preposterous presumption that they gave it to some authority. Most religions have such figures spreading it unless you want to claim Buddhism spreads without ANY leadership. After all, why would they beg for stuff and then proceed to give it back to the people who gave it in the first place? Now, tell me. What happens to the things they give away? And what tombs is the OP really talking about if they aren't what he claimed?

From my understanding, when the ascetic gives his possessions away in order to begin his new life, he's free to choose any one or any number of people to give it to. Typically, poor folk are chosen, not governments and church authorities.

For example: I gave all my possessions away to friends and random prostitutes/street slingers. I only lived as an ascetic for some 9 months, but I'm considering that life again. Servitude to the all mighty dollar is a quick way to destroy spirits.

It is my impression that during the mongolian empire a tibetan princess was married into the mongolian hierachy of leadership (hench the current reasoning behind the chinese occupation).

Presumably a large proportion of the funds actually came from Mongolia, what with kublai's preference of Buddhism over other religions at the time (Taoist shamanism + Confuscianism included)

The OP seems to forget that although people such as the Dalai Lama appear to live within the lap of luxury, they actually hold few financial assets, with the majority of what they earn being placed directly into the upkeep of the monastaries - as such, they are provided due respect and proper accomodation, as befits one who performs such acts of benevolence towards the buddhist ideal.

It's likely that i'm wrong on some points, however.

EDIT: It's also amusing to note that due to the reasoning behind the Chinese occupation, that China is actually part of Mongolia.

Those three counties have a LOT of history.

For clarification, when I use the term church, I am referring to the Buddhist institution in Tibet. There is absolutely no lack of monasteries, you know a place where people come from a long way away to pray, sounds a bit like a Catholic Church. You are right there is no collection basket like in a church, instead there are piles (sometimes knee high) of money offered at the feet of statues and other pieces of art around the monastery.
Also, rules about monks owning no material possessions seemed to have been relaxed a bit. We were quite surprised to see a number of monks talking on cellphones throughout Tibet.
Although the Dali Lama may not own the possessions he was surrounded with, when we visited the last house he lived in before he fled we saw that he lived in luxury. It was large with beautiful gardens. He had many beautiful items given to him as gifts by foreign and heads of state including two beautiful radios.
I don't see how I am "fucked in the head" I posted my observations from my travels.

I don't see how I am "fucked n the head" I posted my observations from my travels.

Yet you refused to acknowledge they were mere observations until now.

Up until that point you had been trying to make a point that needs much more research and studying to even become half-respectable.

I clearly stated that I saw these things on my trip to Tibet and I passed along information that I had observed or was told to me by our guide.

I also want to clarify my stance on the Chinese occupation of Tibet. I absolutely believe in Tibet's right to sovereignty. In my first post I put the word "occupation" in quotes and provided in brackets both the Tibetan and the Chinese stance on the issue. This was not to downplay the importance of the Tibet occupation or show support for the Chinese position, it was there to provide a balanced perspective. In fact I stated that I believe that the Chinese occupation of Tibet is detrimental to the social situation in Tibet.
The argument I am making is that I observed that the Buddhist institution (or church as I originally put it) in Tibet takes in a lot of money from people living in essentially third world conditions and blows it on Religious architecture instead of helping the starving people in the community. I feel that this is also very detrimental to the people of Tibet.

The argument I am making is that I observed that the Buddhist institution (or church as I originally put it) in Tibet takes in a lot of money from people living in essentially third world conditions and blows it on Religious architecture instead of helping the starving people in the community. I feel that this is also very detrimental to the people of Tibet.

in that case is this nessecarily a discussion we should be having in MGCBTSOOYG?

Tbh, it isn't entirely surprising that this has happened, there are black sheep in every flock.

Have you considered the fact that people give up their material wealth voluntarily?

No one forces them to, and it is common wisdom that you should help yourself before you help others.

Well if you teach them to give it to you in the first place, that does indeed make you an asshole

Or are you claiming the monks just got the idea of giving their things away on their own?

People are horrible creatures


If that is truely your position, it must suck to be you, having created a world populated by "horrible creatures."

In my experience, most people are doing the best they can given their circumstances. Those who do harmful things to themselves or others are motivated by fear--or toxic drugs--or religion.

fear covers it all i think.

but anyway, buddhism doesn't count as one of the organised religions, and while it may seem sad that people donate what seems beyond thier means, it may help to look at this in perspective.

the christian churches have the donation basket, every week, in which you are compelled to donate. some religions even base your worth on not your dedication, but on your monetary worth.

buddhism is not one of those. there is no compulsion to donate, you do not get any further up the ranks by doing so. sure, if you want to give then people will build offerings and whatnot, but it isn't necessary.

the "church" helping the community is a relatively new idea. back in the day you donated to the church, and the church helped itself, but the hipocrasy became evident when poverty became headlines. places like tibet did not experience poverty. everyone basically had the same beliefe that you helped other people and tried your hardest, so there wasn't alot of drama. the extreme cases you mention are due to the chinese attempt to wipe the tibetans off the map.

you are applying western values to a completely different society. the church isn't there to save people, and people donate as a sacrafice to thier gods. in western culture people donate to religious groups with the idea that the money is going to help people. of course it rarely does, but religion is not based on reason or reality.

Aren't Buddhist monks mendicant to begin with? In that case, wouldn't they be obligated to give the majority of the alms they receive away in order to maintain that lifestyle?

While this wouldn't explain while the Dalai Lama lived in luxury - since he also claims to be a simple Buddhist monk - it would explain why the monks give so much back.