http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation_index.php

Refresh if it doesn't work!

If you're gonna read it, at least read the annotated version (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/).

So what you all think :D?

Ghey.

pile of fucking shit

Do good works for Allah; spill blood for Allah's will.

Obviously none of you read the book. I know of no one who has read the Koran impartially and found it to be a hateful or meaningless book. I don't expect a change of belief after a reading but in my expierience those who read the book - in the very least - find a respect for the religion. I would ask that if you feel the need to judge people that you at least find a factual basis upon which to do so instead of simply speaking through your prisim of ignorance.

Very true

http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation_index.php

I got a couple surahs in and got fed up with being told what to do how to think. The contradictions in the book are delightful, the lingo is amusing at first, but I tire of repetition. All and all, I think people should try and read the whole thing, but only for the purpose of being more educated.

for I am oft replying, most wisdomful.

Obviously none of you read the book. I know of no one who has read the Koran impartially and found it to be a hateful or meaningless book. I don't expect a change of belief after a reading but in my expierience those who read the book - in the very least - find a respect for the religion. I would ask that if you feel the need to judge people that you at least find a factual basis upon which to do so instead of simply speaking through your prisim of ignorance.

I've researched Islam and the Qur'an. Personally, it isn't brimming with bloodlust and militancy. It reads- for the most part- like a book of laws rather than fables. I'm not saying its perfect but it puts far more emphasis on charity than combat. My comment was about the dichotomy of Islam that is prone to cause confusion.

I'm glad you guys are doing researchs about islam :D


Even God is asking you to find 1 contradiction in the Qu'ran if you are so capable to do so.

4.82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

and if you want, there's an american who speaks for islam, the purpose of life?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MmR_FUe76W4

the easiest discrepency is there regard for christianity and judaism, in the 2nd surah it states that jews and christians can go to heaven provided they follow the will of allah, but by being a christian or a jew you do not believe in the first pillar of islam, specifically the infallability of the prophet.

4.82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
The Quar'an states that the Sun orbits the Earth, so does the nation of Saudi Arabia.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/science/long.html
Especially number 9, and while I agree with the morals stated in the Quar'an, it's factual bullshit, like all holy books.

It's said that the earth orbits the sun because elipses are the simplest way to describe the movement of the planets. There is no reason we have to see the sun, or even the center of our galaxy, as stationary. Any point science picks as 'stationary' is picked simply because saying that point is stationary allows them to describe the system they're describing, be it the solar system or the galaxy, in the easiest fashion. There's no reason the earth can't hold still and universe move around it. It's all matter of perspective.

I'm not saying I've looked at all of the other points brought up there, but that this point is listed makes me think that site has nothing to do with science.

There is a reason the earth can't be still and the universe moving around it, the motion of an expanding body with a moving centre point would be too rediculously complex to describe or even think about it. Like being a raisin in an infinitely expanding bun, except you are circling and twisting too, try to describe the motion of the bun from your perspective. The closest to "stationary" in the universe is the the epicentre, most likely rediculously fast moving quasars. But you are right, the sun moves in an ellipse around the centre of our galaxy.

The most downright rational and logical "religion".

What the smoke are you cracking?
read the scripture before talking.

Edit: please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm (crosses fingers)

I wasn't being sarcastic.

I have yet to find another system so grounded in reality.

I can't say that I have read the whole Qu'ran. I read it from time to time though. I don't see Islam as a religion either, but rather as a way of life layed out by God to help humans.

Something I'd recommend reading:

http://19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0

are you a muslim, if so you're biased
if not your just dumb.

Islam is as much a religion as anything else, it is so based in facts because it is comparatively young meaning the scripture writer had a much more solid fact base. Now this being said, it has interesting points of view but the religion has as many logical flaws as christianity and judaism. No religion is logical, faith is believing in something that doesn't make factual sense so it needs to be believed rather then understood.

I'm don't call myself a Muslim. I wasn't raised a Muslim. I'm a monotheist that believes the Qu'ran is one of the scriptures that provides guidance to humans. There are verses that were taken as metaphors centuries ago, but have only now been found to be factual as science progresses.

Religions aren't logical to me either. Your belief and connection with God isn't religious at all. People make it religious. Vain rituals make their way into this bond.

You see modern Muslims sects argue on and on about the prayer ritual. They rack their minds thinking about how one should bow down, which direction to face, which prophets' name to call, which way to turn your face, the exact time they should pray, and on and on, like it affects God. Not once will you see a Shia and a Sunni argue about what they should be feeling inside while they're just going through the motions. All this time they're more worried about stupid meaningless little rituals that they loose the real meaning of making contact with God.

It's not faith to me anymore. I KNOW there is a God. THAT is what sounds logical to me. I rely on Him. He is reality. My belief isn't based on wishful thinking and there isn't a thing that can shake my belief in Him. What I AM having problem with is submitting myself to Him. I'm only human.

I'm don't call myself a Muslim. I wasn't raised a Muslim. I'm a monotheist that believes the Qu'ran is one of the scriptures that provides guidance to humans. There are verses that were taken as metaphors centuries ago, but have only now been found to be factual as science progresses.

Religions aren't logical to me either. Your belief and connection with God isn't religious at all. People make it religious. Vain rituals make their way into this bond.

You see modern Muslims sects argue on and on about the prayer ritual. They rack their minds thinking about how one should bow down, which direction to face, which prophets' name to call, which way to turn your face, the exact time they should pray, and on and on, like it affects God. Not once will you see a Shia and a Sunni argue about what they should be feeling inside while they're just going through the motions. All this time they're more worried about stupid meaningless little rituals that they loose the real meaning of making contact with God.

It's not faith to me anymore. I KNOW there is a God. THAT is what sounds logical to me. I rely on Him. He is reality. My belief isn't based on wishful thinking and there isn't a thing that can shake my belief in Him. What I AM having problem with is submitting myself to Him. I'm only human.

Please quote these "scientific" scriptures.

Faith and spirituality over religion and devotion, damn straight. Good metaphor, too.

Why is God logical to you? I'd really like to hear somebody semi-intelligent argue for this one.

Why is God logical to you?

If it feels good, do it. That's logical on a very basic level. And God is a really big safety net that fills in the blanks so you don't have to feel insecure. God did it, hence no need to think why since God is beyond stupid questions. And it feels good to throw responsibility and doubt away

Does it make it smart? No. Should it? Who cares

I don't see God as most people see him. Waaay too many people associate human characteristics to Him.

We can't picture God. We can't comprehend God. As soon as we associate Him with a concept we know about, such as energy, we're restricting Him; and as soon as we restrict Him and His power, he isn't omnipotent or all powerful. Every little concept we know of HAS to be a creation of God. He has to be beyond EVERYTHING. As soon as we put a label on Him or give Him human like emotions or characteristics, we're stiffling our view of Him. He is beyond time and space. He isn't quantum particles. He isn't the Big Bang. He is beyond emotions and needs. He is beyond energy. Close your eyes and try to picture what this "thing" looks like, you view won't even come close to the real thing.

Furthermore, I don't see how our study of science disproves His existance. Every little equation and concept we study is a building block of His creation. Einstein saying E=mc^2 is him studying His creation. And however much one likes saying that he/she is his/her own God, it simply isn't right. Fact is you need these little equations to exist. If the Plank's constant was off by even 0.00000000000000000000000001 we wouldn't exist. My physical body is subservient to His laws. Way too many people on this forum have a god-complex. You are not your own God. You came from your parents. Your parents aren't God. They came from someone else. Evolution isn't God. There has to be something that initiates the process. The Sun isn't God. It is a spec of dust on fire, like millions of others.

I have come to accept the fact that I am subservient to this thing that I have no control over yet has the most control over me. The hard part is the inner struggle.

~~~

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/DGE_science_koran_quran.htm

http://19.org/index.php?id=76,284,0,0,1,0

I'm not thoroughly familiar with the Qu'ran nor do I claim to be. There are loads of translations out there but each has it's own bias. The more prominent ones are riddled with pagan shit, as is most of Islam today. I hope to learn classic arabic someday and study it raw and objectively without any preconcieved notions that I can't be proven otherwise.

If it feels good, do it. That's logical on a very basic level. And God is a really big safety net that fills in the blanks so you don't have to feel insecure. God did it, hence no need to think why since God is beyond stupid questions. And it feels good to throw responsibility and doubt away

Does it make it smart? No. Should it? Who cares

Belief and submission demands more responsibility than most humans will ever commit.

If anything, I see atheism as an attempted escape from reality and responsibility. A guy that rapes and murders would rather believe that there aren't consequences for his actions.

If anything, I see atheism as an attempted escape from reality and responsibility

Funny how you'd consider God as an accepted part of reality. Atheists aren't the ones believing they keep on living after they die. What was it you said again, escape from reality? Ironic

What makes you think responsibility just vanishes if there is no God? That's a load of crap

If it feels good, do it. That's logical on a very basic level. And God is a really big safety net that fills in the blanks so you don't have to feel insecure. God did it, hence no need to think why since God is beyond stupid questions. And it feels good to throw responsibility and doubt away

Does it make it smart? No. Should it? Who cares

Well I knew that one, but that sounds awfully superficial, it's not logic, it's the if-it-feels-good-it-must-be-right mentality, which may be based on logic in a way, but can be disproven by logic just as easily.

Ishrind, I suggest reading the 'tao te ching' (pronounced dow day jing). It's based firmly in reason, and espouses the same notion you did in "As soon as we associate Him with a concept we know about, such as energy, we're restricting Him; and as soon as we restrict Him and His power, he isn't omnipotent or all powerful" with this: "The tao that can be named is not the eternal tao."

At the very least, it's an amazing read. At its best, it's pure inspiration.

Well I knew that one, but that sounds awfully superficial, it's not logic, it's the if-it-feels-good-it-must-be-right mentality, which may be based on logic in a way, but can be disproven by logic just as easily.

Umm, logic can't prove 'right' and 'wrong'. You can't use an objective system to determine a subjective attribute...that'd be faulty logic.

You have me curious now ishrind. You seem to have a decent grip on your logical and spiritual faculties, but why do you accept monotheism so readily. Why is it a one god, not many powers working in perfect synergy, why must there be a greater force, and why must it be one entity. Plancks constant would be physical observation such that it must be true or life wouldn't exist.

Funny how you'd consider God as an accepted part of reality. Atheists aren't the ones believing they keep on living after they die. What was it you said again, escape from reality? Ironic

What makes you think responsibility just vanishes if there is no God? That's a load of crap

You're right. A believer can be irresponsible. A non-believer can be responsible. As for the after-life, even I am not sure. I don't take everything in the Qu'ran without reasoning on my own. What I do believe in is the big bang, the ongoing expansion of the universe, and the eventual collapse or rip. I firmly believe that there is only so much our universe can expand. What happens after, only God knows.

You have me curious now ishrind. You seem to have a decent grip on your logical and spiritual faculties, but why do you accept monotheism so readily. Why is it a one god, not many powers working in perfect synergy, why must there be a greater force, and why must it be one entity. Plancks constant would be physical observation such that it must be true or life wouldn't exist.

There are many "powers" working in perfect synergy. Concepts of space, time, gravity, each of these laws work perfectly in unison. Where calling these "powers" God fails the test of logic is in that these laws have no power or free will of there own. Gravity is gravity. Time is time. Other than the function they perform, they're powerless. There has to be a single initiator. Read back to what Hexadecimal said.

but everything you say is contraqur'an. You're saying god cannot be describe, thus is the point of the qur'an, you have views that somewhat mirror my own but every view you express seems to say that you realize scripture is bullshit.

but everything you say is contraqur'an. You're saying god cannot be describe, thus is the point of the qur'an.

No it's not. It's more like a guide to humans. Think of it as a book that tells you right from wrong. It doesn't say anything about growing a beard or making your women cover their body from head to toe. It doesn't say anything about circumcision. These are all man made laws and rituals. The way I look at it is this: God doesn't run out of words; if there isn't something in the Qu'ran about something (like which side of bed should you get out of), it probably doesn't matter. It's human nature to want to know the "right" way to do things. They don't find these things in God's scripture(s), they go to their priets, gurus, clerics, imams, pundits, and prophets, and imitate them. BANG! Idoltary; you're fucked!

but every view you express seems to say that you realize scripture is bullshit.

Like what?

All of your comments about not knowing the true nature of god.

I said it before, I suggest you read the qur'an before talking, it does give you a guide to living your life right down to the nitty gritty. I found it reasonable and enjoyable at first but I was intensly turned off when it started telling me how to do specific things.

And immitating higher level religious figures isn't the big I. When you start applying divinity to them it is, like if you were to WORSHIP mohammed that would be idolatry, it is noble to try and follow a person religiously superior to you, it shows you are striving to be as good a practitioner as you can be.

You can't put a label on God. The Qu'ran isn't about God. It's about humans.

And immitating higher level religious figures isn't the big I. When you start applying divinity to them it is, like if you were to WORSHIP mohammed that would be idolatry, it is noble to try and follow a person religiously superior to you, it shows you are striving to be as good a practitioner as you can be.

Modern Muslims fucking worship Mohammed. Remember that Danish or whatever cartoon? They act like Christians. If basing your daily routine around a guy that died 1600 years ago isn't worship, what is?

It isn't even about applying the aspect of divinity to them, it's being so influenced, that they start dictating your bond with God. Why are there so many denominations of Christianity that give and take books as they please from the Bible? Why are there so many sects upon sects within Islam? Instead of coming to their own conclusion about what is people look at other people to tell them the truth. It's one thing to hear one's take on things, but another to disregard reason and science while knowing deep inside that something doesn't seem right. They fail to realize that who they're following is just another human, capable of errors like any other, no matter how high his standing might be.

17:36 And you shall not follow blindly any information of which you have no
direct knowledge. You must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning.

You can't put a label on God. The Qu'ran isn't about God. It's about humans.

The Qu'ran a secular book? And a humanist one at that? lol I hope you're joking.

There are many "powers" working in perfect synergy. Concepts of space, time, gravity, each of these laws work perfectly in unison. Where calling these "powers" God fails the test of logic is in that these laws have no power or free will of there own. Gravity is gravity. Time is time. Other than the function they perform, they're powerless. There has to be a single initiator. Read back to what Hexadecimal said.

Gravity may not be gravity outside our universe, same with time and the cosmological constant. Single initiator? This is the 6th time I've had to use this link to disprove your retarded goddidit logic when relating to cosmology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe#Naturalistic_possibilities. There was also an idea called the anthropic principle... I'll let you look that one up.
Personally I'm 35% pantheist, meaning that nature and its laws are the greatest powers in the universe, and hence they are mystical; why not worship the greatest thing in the universe that has been proven to exist; something that has tangible effects. Laws may have free will of their own outside our universe. Being pantheist also frees me from having to explain these laws and their probabilities; maybe they just all got together and decided to make a life-harboring universe? Same logic.

hahaha muslims don't worship mohammed, they revere and honour him, he is not a deity.

Personally I'm 35% pantheist, meaning that nature and its laws are the greatest powers in the universe, and hence they are mystical; why not worship the greatest thing in the universe that has been proven to exist; something that has tangible effects

Let's all worship rocks and gravity and see how long it takes to realize how stupid we are for bothering to worship something that doesn't care or probably wouldn't care if it could

why worship anything, lets just agree the nature is one cool motherfucker and respect it.

The Qu'ran a secular book? And a humanist one at that? lol I hope you're joking.

Islam is a system. It's a secular book to me because I accept God. It isn't filled with fairy tales about immortal gods or entities with human like qualities either. T

hahaha muslims don't worship mohammed, they revere and honour him, he is not a deity.

Muslims treat Mohammed like Trinit-arians treat Christ. He is put on a pedestal. To them, he is above every other human. They might reject it, but their behaviour says something else.

"'ašhadu 'al-l? il?ha ill?-ll?hu wa 'ašhadu 'anna mu?ammadan ras?lu-ll?h","I testify that there is none worthy of worship except God and I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of God."

That's how they profess their faith. And that is the requirement for conversion. It doesn't matter if you don't mention the name of the two dozen other prophets, but the almighty Mohammed has to be in there. There isn't a verse in the Qu'ran that dictates how one professes his/her faith. There are verses dictating one to not set up partners with God. A stout monotheist raised in the jungles of Amazon isn't considered a Muslim by their logic. Not knowing and/or acknowledging the prophethood of Mohammed is considered infidelity. Its more about Mohammed than about God. The Qu'ran is merely there for mindless recital. More attention is given to the Hadiths (collection of anecdotes supposedly about the life of Mohammed collected two-hundered years after his death. Think along the lines of St.Paul here.)

Gravity may not be gravity outside our universe, same with time and the cosmological constant. Single initiator? This is the 6th time I've had to use this link to disprove your retarded goddidit logic when relating to cosmology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tu..._possibilities. There was also an idea called the anthropic principle... I'll let you look that one up.
Personally I'm 35% pantheist, meaning that nature and its laws are the greatest powers in the universe, and hence they are mystical; why not worship the greatest thing in the universe that has been proven to exist; something that has tangible effects. Laws may have free will of their own outside our universe. Being pantheist also frees me from having to explain these laws and their probabilities; maybe they just all got together and decided to make a life-harboring universe? Same logic.

1. I don't deny the fact that E=mc^2 might be E=mc^3 in another universe. I also accept the fact that our universe, the means of modern technology, is all we have as our playground. This is all we can observe. We are pretty damn limited in our view.

2. That doesn't dispove shit. Every concept, principle, and theory is humans putting labels on the these laws that control this universe. I don't see a reason why the same creator couldn't create both chaos and destiny.

I don't fight with science. God and science go hand in hand. The way I see it is, what we are doing is studying God's creation. The more our knowledge advances, the more we understand. But, knowledge is just that, knowledge. The same physical laws that existed 2 million years ago, exist today.

Let's all worship rocks and gravity and see how long it takes to realize how stupid we are for bothering to worship something that doesn't care or probably wouldn't care if it could

Other than it's assigned function, it's powerless and therefore not worthy of my worship or spiritual submission.

I know it seems like I have a narrow point of view about everything and I know how hard it is to argue with a person that just seems so stuck on a single way of thinking. All I am doing is defending my reason and logic. You say "why?" I say "why not?" The way I am is based on my past, every little thing that I have experienced has an effect on the way I think at this moment. What I have never done is be so close minded as to totally disregard reason and logic. And my logic says God exists. But again, my understanding of Him is very limited. Our imagination itself as humans is pretty limited.

Dude your logic fucking sucks. A secular book would mean no religion, no god. So your already off on a bunk premise. Next of all, Only god is worthy of worship seems like a good indication that mohammed isn't worshipped, he is treated as the holiest of men, he's as good as people get so model yourself after him. He is the messenger of god not related as in the christian christ. Mohammed is the seal of the prophets so mention Abarhim (muslim speak for abraham) and Jesus, they're just good prophets, Mohammed was the final and therefore most important. I didn't bother reading the rest of your point cuz your logic frustrates me.

Go talk to a Muslim.

And re-read my post.

I know many, they are interesting people.
Learn about islam before talking, cuz seriously, re reading the rest of your post made me realize how fucking little you know. Your logic skills are deplorable. Their statement of faith says that Mohammed is not divine. He is treated as the pinnacle of humanity, and according to the qur'an he is. But its bullshit he wrote anyway so of course it plays on how great he is. Christianity does not view christ as a peak human, he is viewed as a facet of god, thats a facet, not a messenger, not a prophet, he is god incarnate. Read up on Islam and Judaism and Christianity, and for the fuck of it, take a highschool world religions course and come back better educated.

I don't claim to know it all, but I enough. I know that modern Islam is fucked up pretty close to beyond repair and it's no wonder 90% of the "Islamic" countries are stuck in a backward ass societies with remanents of the 1600s because of their way of thinking; all while the rest of the world is progressing.

I know more about the true nature of Islam than most Muslim clerics that have made a mockery of God's system.

If you're trying to convince me that there isn't a God, you haven't gotten far. I claimed that Islam as revealed by the Qu'ran is the most logical system I have come across and I stand by it.

So you believe archangel gabriel burned the Qur'an into mohammed's heart and he spent three years writting it down because before that he was illiterate. Please please read the qur'an it will change your mind. I'm not trying to convince you god doesn't exist, I'm merely trying to show you the qur'an isn't what you think it is. Islamic countries are backwards because of what the qur'an says. There are vicious hateful passages that inspire the stonings.

So you believe archangel gabriel burned the Qur'an into mohammed's heart and he spent three years writting it down because before that he was illiterate. Please please read the qur'an it will change your mind. I'm not trying to convince you god doesn't exist, I'm merely trying to show you the qur'an isn't what you think it is. Islamic countries are backwards because of what the qur'an says. There are vicious hateful passages that inspire the stonings.

1. The concept of winged creatures as angels has existed since way before Abrahamic religions. This (http://ammusharraf.bulldoghome.com/pages/ammusharraf_bulldoghome_com/Islam/SHORTARTICLES.pdf) article offers a way more reasonable explanation of what the word malikah means in Arabic, instead of what we think of as a pie in the sky. The interpretation has been influenced by Greek, Roman, Zoroastrian, Judaic, Christian, pre-Islamic Arabian mythos, all of which had creatures with human like properties.

2. There isn't a shred of evidence to prove that Mohammed was illiterate.

3. You know, you keep implying that you know the book better than me. Find me the verse that allows stoning of adulterers. Or covering of a woman's face. Or the death penalty for an apostate.

But I'm lazy. Sure there are no passages that outright say it, but there are many passages that imply causing pain to people who disrespect allah. I don't believe mohammed was illiterate, or that an angel told him what to write, but thats the story.

That article is interesting but there is a limit to how much one person can say. Thats his interpretation, and I wish it was correct but it seems everyone else interprets it differently. Even mohammed spoke of winged angels so it seems like the writer was just confusing himself etymologically.

.,... lmao.

Sure , there are no passages that outright say it but it's implied? Find me the verses that imply it.

Don't make claims if you're not ready to back them up.

It's easier to just turn a blind eye to everything and pretend it's not there. I was there once. Accepting and commiting yourself to the truth is hard work.

lol, I'm lazy, but its in the first few surahs.

If bad stuff happens to you, it's your own fault. 42:30, 42:48

Allah made the stars as missiles to throw at devils. 67:5

When disbelievers hear the Quran, they roll their eyes and say "he [Muhammad] is indeed mad." 68:51

Only religious people help orphans or those in need. 107:1-3

Disbelievers live in denial. 85:19

Would you like to eat the flesh of your dead brother? 49:12

Every person alive at the time of the flood was evil. So Allah drowned them all. 21:77

Invisible armies!
Allah supported Muhammad with armies that no one else could see. 9:40

The Christian Trinity is the Father, Mother, and Son. 5:116

Pets are people, too! 6:38

Allah has turned some Christians and Jews into apes and swine. 5:60

When it's time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can't find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself. 5:6

If the Quran was not from Allah its critics would find some mistakes in it. 4:82

"We shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah." 4:30

The earth is fixed and does not move. 27:61

"We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

"We decked the nether heaven with lamps.">
Allah put "lamps" in the lower heaven to serve as lights. These are the stars that we see in the sky at night. 41:12

"Who hath created seven heavens ... Canst thou see any rifts?"
Allah asks Muhammed to examine the sky to see if it has any cracks. 67:3

Allah made the stars as missiles to throw at devils. 67:5


The quran gave me many lulz. :D

It's funny how you don't take the full verse, and just take a part of it....

Lies. I've read it before and won't read it again.