Lately there have been a lot of atheist versus Christian debates in the popular media. I find them interesting but frustrating since both sides seem, to me, to be totally missing the point--or at least, failing to acknowledge that there is a third alternative.

The atheists reject the Abrahamic, unevolved view of God as a vengeful judgemental jealous deity--as do I and many others who read and agree with the likes of Deepak Chopra, Neale Donald Walsch, Gary Zukav and a host of others. To us, God is not an entity per se, but the all-pervasive intelligent, sentient, loving and creative combination of energy and information that permeates everyone and everything.

The Christians keep insisting that their limited culture-bound, divisive and elitist view of God is the only possible concept of God.

Over the years I have had many discussions with so-called atheists, and try to tell them that the God they reject is nothing like the God I know.

The God I know neither rewards nor punishes, does not judge or discriminate, but rather loves everyone and everything unconditionally.

Granted, the term "God" may be misleading, since it connotes, if not denotes, a discrete entity. The redskin term "Great Spirit" is probably more precise--since we are all ultimately spiritual beings--but to me it sounds a tad pretentious. And I'm a half-breed redskin myself, and a card-carrying member of the Muskogee Nation. (My uncle was a tribal elder and my great-grandfather Red Eagle is in some history books.)

No one of us is any better or any worse than any other, each of us being an individuation of the divine. Each one of us contains a god or goddess in embryo which is waiting to fully manifest as we attain unity consciousness, and learn to transcend fear and manifest total and unconditional love. This is, I think, what Jesus was getting at when he said "The kingdom of God is within you."

No, I reject all Gods. :)

Everyone is getting it right, no one can get it wrong.

I whole heartedly agree.

AM you have missed the point of the atheist side. Sure, they attack the classical christian god the most because that's the most popular. But your paranormal beliefs are equally ridiculous.

No one ever believes God hates you or just doesn't give a shit

If I built a lego world and they suddenly came alive, I wouldn't love them. I'd probably set some on fire every now and then, set up some freak accidents and watch with delight as they toil and trouble to please me by killing the ones that think I like red better than blue. Oh the ones that think I like green, they get really fucked by the two other groups. The best part, I like green and just prefer to watch them being assholes to each other for no apparent logical reason. Watch the little lego child pray to me at night and BAM, hit by a lego truck the next day and paralyzed from neck down. And they'd still call me loving, hah. Fools

No one ever believes God hates you or just doesn't give a shit

If I built a lego world and they suddenly came alive, I wouldn't love them. I'd probably set some on fire every now and then, set up some freak accidents and watch with delight as they toil and trouble to please me by killing the ones that think I like red better than blue. Oh the ones that think I like green, they get really fucked by the two other groups. The best part, I like green and just prefer to watch them being assholes to each other for no apparent logical reason. Watch the little lego child pray to me at night and BAM, hit by a lego truck the next day and paralyzed from neck down. And they'd still call me loving, hah. Fools

har har har

har har har

It's plausible, you can't deny that

Your idea of god is limited to human vocabulary and understanding.

And it is still a belief baised on faith. You have worked this idea out yourself useing philosophy. Theres no evidence or reason to believe the way you do.

Therefor whether you believe god to be conciouse being who created everything or whatever you think it is, its still a complete fucking assumption based purely on a play with words.

Over the years I have had many discussions with so-called atheists, and try to tell them that the God they reject is nothing like the God I know.



I commend you, Arms - for with the "so-called" atheists, you actually stand a chance at converting them to accepting the God you know.

I don't think you're going to crack the bonafide ones, as their imperative to be without god isn't easily penetrable.

And why even bother? If they're happy, healthy and batting a thousand without a higher power coaching them along ... then perhaps you could consider their position a worthy one, and stand to learn a thing or two from their perspective.

It's plausible, you can't deny that

What you said you'd do only reflects your views and the actions you'd take, nothing more. :p

You're the one getting it wrong. Atheists reject gods and all deities, not one fucking christian god. They're all fake, including yours.

"oh god is in everything, he's in you and me and this spoon that I have over here"

Thats just as ridiculous as believing in a magic man.

THERE ARE NO BOOGEYMEN, THERE ARE NO FARIES, THERE ARE NO GHOSTS, THERE ARE NO DEMONS, THERE ARE NO GODS.

This is, I think, what Jesus was getting at when he said "The kingdom of God is within you."


It's my understanding that he was speaking to the Pharisees when he spoke those words.

Then he turned to the disciples and took that opportunity to impress upon them how He did not want them to be led astray after his death. (or, in other words, to be chasing after rainbows (messiahs)?)

To me, that fits the context.

There is also a question of whether it should be "within" or "among".

...And to see you're really only very small,
And life flows ON within you and without you...

...And the time will come when you see
we're all one, and life flows on within you and without you.

What you said you'd do only reflects your views and the actions you'd take, nothing more. :p

It's the other side of the coin and fits our world just as well as the loving but hidden God. Except it just doesn't happen to be popular, it'd be terrible to think that you just sliced your fingers off by accident because God thought it'd be funny

There is no God. There are no Gods. There are no ghosts. There is no life after death. As an atheist, I don't reject anyone's god in particular but everyone's god. It's all ridiculous. There is no evidence for any of it.

I commend you, Arms - for with the "so-called" atheists, you actually stand a chance at converting them to accepting the God you know.

I don't think you're going to crack the bonafide ones, as their imperative to be without god isn't easily penetrable.

And why even bother? If they're happy, healthy and batting a thousand without a higher power coaching them along ... then perhaps you could consider their position a worthy one, and stand to learn a thing or two from their perspective.

Perhaps I failed to make myself clear. I have no intention of cracking, converting, or "saving" anyone. My point was that militant anti-Christians are just as deluded as militant Christians. And God as I understand him/her/it/them/whatever is in no way a "higher power."

To quote Stephen Gaskin-- "You can't know the totality of God with your finite mind, because God is infinite and your material plane intelligence is finite--it cannot contain an infinite thing. But if you aren't pressing about the totality, and just observe what's in front of you, you are knowing God, because that is all there is to know. There is nothing else to know; and the knowledge, the knower, the thing known and the act of knowing are all one and are all God. You are the eyes with which God looks, and the mind through which God understands itself."

I do totally agree with your last point, as does God. But pretty much all the atheists I have encountered seem angry, embattled, and/or defensive--around forty years ago, I was an angry young atheist myself.

Today, I am radiantly happy, joyous, and fulfilled, despite the fact that I live with pain, poverty, and disablity on a daily basis. I strive to judge nothing, accept everything, and bless everyone. I neither hate nor fear nor envy anyone. I wonder how many atheists can say the same.

It's the other side of the coin and fits our world just as well as the loving but hidden God. Except it just doesn't happen to be popular, it'd be terrible to think that you just sliced your fingers off by accident because God thought it'd be funny

It doesn't happen to be popular because the idea of a loving and caring God is more likely. See: John 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16;&version=9;), 1 Peter 5:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%205:7;&version=9;). :)

ArmsMerchant, I would say that all facets keep getting it wrong.

It doesn't happen to be popular because the idea of a loving and caring God is more likely. See: John 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16;&version=9;), 1 Peter 5:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%205:7;&version=9;). :)

You REALLY don't want to quote the Bible at atheists.

@AM, why call it God if it's in everything? Why not call it an angel or a fairy or a gnome? A God by defenition had be a creator doesn't he/she? You can be an atheist and appreciate the beauty around you as well. You're right, I can't understand God with a finite mind, but you can't understand angels or fairies or gnomes with a finite mind either, does that prove they exist, or at the very least, that they are in all of us? What if Jesus said "the angel of God is among/within all of you", would that substantiate a claim about an eternal all-encompassing angel? Probably not.

I wonder how many atheists can say the same.

Lovely quote by Gaskin.

Many atheists have been injured deeply. For many people in pain, recovery can be slow or might never happen.

I have had the pleasure to know some wonderful atheists though. It's something I am thankful for.

I do totally agree with your last point, as does God. But pretty much all the atheists I have encountered seem angry, embattled, and/or defensive--around forty years ago, I was an angry young atheist myself.

Gee, Arms. I sure hope you're not implying that I'm a young, angry atheist. For I am neither young, nor angry - screen name be damned. :D

If most of the atheists you've encountered have been angry, embattled or defensive ... I'd suggest venturing outside of Totse and meeting some grown-up atheists who aren't so prone to wearing their angst on their sleeves.

Today, I am radiantly happy, joyous, and fulfilled, despite the fact that I live with pain, poverty, and disablity on a daily basis. I strive to judge nothing, accept everything, and bless everyone. I neither hate nor fear nor envy anyone. I wonder how many atheists can say the same.

Cheers to you, for being the embodiment of happiness, the epitome of *chill*.

I am pleased to report that pain + a childhood filled with poverty has allowed me to appreciate the level of living that I now enjoy - and this is one atheist who can say the same concerning her love of other human beings. I will go so far as to say that if I were any happier, I would not be able to stand being in the same room as myself. :P

Perhaps the angry, embattled, defensive young atheists you have judged as so have good reason for displaying their hostilities. As you well know, it's usually a condition of their youth that they tend to outgrow once they find themselves in a position to make their own decisions and understand that it's not *The Man* holding them back ... it's themselves.


Many atheists have been injured deeply. For many people in pain, recovery can be slow or might never happen.

That's a bit of a generalization, oc6. People assume that when one chooses to live without God, it's usually a result of a major event in their lives that cause them to lose hope. That is just not always the case. In fact, it seems as though the "born again" usually do so at a time when all else seems hopeless, and turn to God as a support beam.

I can only report that the atheists I know seem happy, healthy and well-adjusted. A few I could name on here (but I'll refrain), and the rest (which is the majority), I know personally.

You REALLY don't want to quote the Bible at atheists.



why not?

That's a bit of a generalization, oc6. People assume that when one chooses to live without God, it's usually a result of a major event in their lives that cause them to lose hope.

I went thru a period when just the mention of the name Jesus Christ would make me physically ill.

I see the anger in response to that in a lot of the posts of people here, and at other websites too. It has an awful lot to do with the lack of respect given by the Christian community to unbelievers.

That is the "injury" I speak of. I apologize for my vagueness. I tend to try to be as brief as possible, and I sometimes leave things out. :P

...God is not an entity per se, but the all-pervasive intelligent, sentient, loving combination of energy and information that permeates everyone and everything.

I like to call it consciousness at the tenth dimension.

...atheists reject the Abrahamic, unevolved view of God as a vengeful judgemental jealous deity--as do I...

Not all, but many atheists seem to be like this. Its just one way of perceiving God, and yes, its damn silly.

Its not God.

It doesn't happen to be popular because the idea of a loving and caring God is more likely. See: John 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16;&version=9;), 1 Peter 5:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%205:7;&version=9;). :)

And if the Bible is just a book full of folklore and hence, all lies? What then? You place a lot of faith on people 2000 years ago not lying or fabricating crap to make such a claim

Mean God would probably be amused by your beliefs. You can't prove it either way but don't dismiss my side because it makes you uncomfortable

And if the Bible is just a book full of folklore and hence, all lies?
I'm glad it isn't.


You place a lot of faith on people 2000 years ago not lying or fabricating crap to make such a claim

Mean God would probably be amused by your beliefs. You can't prove it either way but don't dismiss my side because it makes you uncomfortable.

A loving God is biblical, whilst your "mean" God has nothing to back it up and is only a fabrication of your imagination.

I love how most of the atheists in this thread came in horn blowing the fact they were atheist and then had nothing to contribute. It really goes to help AM's case. The problem is, now this is directed at those atheist I was just talking about, you guys go to exorbitant lengths to discredit your own lack of faith. Now, I don't nessecarily agree with AM or anyone on this thread, to me the most logical explanation is there is no logical explanation yet. Just the way AM conducts himself makes me want to back him up more then people who come into his thread say I'm an atheist you can't convince me otherwise, thats just being stubborn and closed minded. But I think AM has to notice that not all the atheists are stupid, look at angryfemme, she has a well thought out views and still doesn't believe, thats her choice. Respect all faiths and lack thereof.

edit: Pilsu your idea of the angry god, and the story used to describe it were awesome, I may have to use that sometime.

The fact this thread exists only serves to explain the creators (of this thread) utter lack of knowledge of atheism.

Look at the name. A. Theism. Without god or deities. NOt without the christian god or the islamic god, not without one set idea or another, without all of them. Equally, omnisciently, finally.

I've had a good life, I suppose. I was atheist long before anything bad started happening to me. Hell, my mom used to say how after I came home from my religious daycare how I said to her one day "Mommy, I dont' think god exists. I mean, how could he sit on clouds if clouds are just water vapor?". I was never persecuted by my parents; my mom was an agnostic deist and my dad was sort of quietly atheist. I didn't go through anything for my beliefs until LONG after I started having them.

Because once I started growing my hair longer and wearing darker clothes (because I was getting into metal and thats what metallers seemed to look like, and I liked it identified with it, so I started looking like it) I kept getting asked "why I worship satan" and "why I hate Christ" and "why I gave away my soul" and bullshit like that. That actually pushed me to look into satanism and after a bit I realized that it was bullshit too.

Thats about the time when I realized the futility of control, and the fundamental wrongness of it. Though I am an atheist, I've always had a strong sense of morality (to the ridiculous extreme I have yet to play through any Star Wars game on light side.... it just feels wrong even though I know it isn't real, and that isn't a lie or an exaggeration). I started thinking about control and the natures of religion and goverenment, and that's how I became an anarchist. That reinforced my beliefs in atheism because while the christians and other theists were saying how Jesus said to be loyal, the anarchists that I knew (and mind you, this isn't bullshit vandalism highschool anarchy, these are smart people that read and knew things) were accepting. The christians had turned me away, had always turned me away, and would only allow me in if I submitted. If I let them own me in some sense.

But everything has that. If I accept AM's god, then I accept a god. A god that has control over me, a god that commands me. maybe a god that will just not do that, but a god nonetheless.

Hell, if there are deistic beings, they sure as hell dont' need my belief in them to exist. Thats for faries, and they dont' exist whether I believe in them or not, and thats basically how religion (or belief in what isn't there) works.

I'm not anti-christian, I'm an atheist. Its insulting that "the atheists have it wrong" because of what, some assumption that all humans need religion? No, I can do fine without it, and I know plenty others who can. I am without your gods, without your faries and magic, and I'm happy. I like, I love the feeling of being in charge of myself and not having to suck ass to some god-thing. I'm an atheist, and I've got it right.

why not?

Good point. Although I agree with Mark Twain when he observed that the Bible contains "some noble poetry, a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of a thousand lies," it contains a lot of wisdom.

Whether you agree with any of it or not, the fact remains that the Bible is a bulwark of popular culture, and one ignores it at one's peril.

Hell, if there are deistic beings, they sure as hell dont' need my belief in them to exist. Thats for faries, and they dont' exist whether I believe in them or not, and thats basically how religion (or belief in what isn't there) works.

I'm not anti-christian, I'm an atheist. Its insulting that "the atheists have it wrong" because of what, some assumption that all humans need religion? No, I can do fine without it, and I know plenty others who can. I am without your gods, without your faries and magic, and I'm happy. I like, I love the feeling of being in charge of myself and not having to suck ass to some god-thing. I'm an atheist, and I've got it right.


I agree. God does not require your belief or acceptance. And I reject religion absolutely--I am talking about spirituality, the difference being that religon draws a circle to keep people out ("Death to the unbelievers"), while spirituality draws a circle to bring people in (as in "we are All One").

And of course you are in charge of not only yourself, but all that you experience. It's called "free will," and it is absolute, even to the time and manner of your death. Everything that happens is a result fo your own choices--hence, there are no villains, no victims, and no reason to hate, fear, pity or envy anyone. Those emotions are not helpful.

Also, I endorse your quibble about the term "right"--I was being imprecise for the sake of brevity. Perhaps I should have said "Both sides keep harping on a conception of the Great Spirit which is an obsolete artifact of the Piscean Age, andwhich totally ignores the views of hundreds of thousands to thoughtful people of not only other religions, but of what has been variously called "the new Gospel" and "the new paradigm"--I don't think it would have fit, however.

In the highest reality, there is no right or wrong, only that which works, and that which doesn't.

Your idea of god is limited to human vocabulary and understanding.

And it is still a belief baised on faith. You have worked this idea out yourself useing philosophy. Theres no evidence or reason to believe the way you do.

Therefor whether you believe god to be conciouse being who created everything or whatever you think it is, its still a complete fucking assumption based purely on a play with words.

Incorrect. If you have any, ask one of your intelligent friends what "gnostic" means.

Or get someone to help you google it. On second thought, just read on.

"Gnostic" comes from the Greek word for knowledge, and refers to someone with direct knowledge of God through experience and/or intuition. Hence, there is no need for holy books, or priests--a notion which enraged the early priests, since it threatened their power. The gospel of Judas is strongly gnostic in flavor--I suggest you read it.

Originally--with a capital G--it referred to any number of early Christian sects which had a bewildering variety of more of less heretical (or simply loony) ideas. One modern scholar has even suggested the the term "Gnostic" be abandoned altogether.

I'm glad it isn't.



A loving God is biblical, whilst your "mean" God has nothing to back it up and is only a fabrication of your imagination.

Hmmm... so lies in that thread you created about being atheist, although I do see a vague purpose, I don't see why you had to lie to get your point (whatever it may have been) across. I recommend you read "Misquoting Jesus" (title different outside the U.S.) by Christian scholar Bart Ehrman. It's too often we don't feel the discomfort of thought; if you're about to post on &T, please educate yourself about the Bible, I certanily have (believe it or not). Honestly, read that book and get back to me, it definitely changed my views of the Bible way back when I was a Christian. I'm dead serious, I recommend this book over "The God Delusion" (at least to Bible thumpers like you :D).
@ Prometheum, amazing post and worth quoting in full.

If I accept AM's god, then I accept a god. A god that has control over me, a god that commands me.

And of course you are in charge of not only yourself, but all that you experience. It's called "free will," and it is absolute, even to the time and manner of your death.

Along the lines of what I would have said.

Hmmm... so lies in that thread you created about being atheist, although I do see a vague purpose, I don't see why you had to lie to get your point (whatever it may have been) across. I recommend you read "Misquoting Jesus" (title different outside the U.S.) by Christian scholar Bart Ehrman. It's too often we don't feel the discomfort of thought; if you're about to post on &T, please educate yourself about the Bible, I certanily have (believe it or not). Honestly, read that book and get back to me, it definitely changed my views of the Bible way back when I was a Christian. I'm dead serious, I recommend this book over "The God Delusion" (at least to Bible thumpers like you :D).
@ Prometheum, amazing post and worth quoting in full.

First of all I'm not Atheist and I never lied saying that I was for whatever reason you're accusing me of, What thread are you talking about? Secondly it seems that you're the uneducated one my friend, because you haven't responded to my reply:

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?p=8420010#post8420010

First of all I'm not Atheist and I never lied saying that I was for whatever reason you're accusing me of, What thread are you talking about? Secondly it seems that you're the uneducated one my friend, because you haven't responded to my reply:

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?p=8420010#post8420010

Yeah this is the thread you started, maybe I misunderstood though, I'm not miseducated, just busy (specifically Ogame and college chemsitry), I have 2 dozen subscribed threads I have yet to reply to, trying to finish them off today. Reply to my post here directly please, and please do read that book.

Yeah this is the thread you started, maybe I misunderstood though, I'm not miseducated, just busy (specifically Ogame and college chemsitry), I have 2 dozen subscribed threads I have yet to reply to, trying to finish them off today. Reply to my post here directly please, and please do read that book.

I didn't start the thread but I did post in it, I didn't say that I was atheist only that I wasn't raised protestant. I'll look into that book though.

I didn't start the thread but I did post in it, I didn't say that I was atheist only that I wasn't raised protestant. I'll look into that book though.

I see my misunderstandin, I thought you were another user.

In exchange, you can direct me to a creationist website of your choice and I will spend no less than 10 minutes looking at it.

No one ever believes God hates you or just doesn't give a shit

If I built a lego world and they suddenly came alive, I wouldn't love them. I'd probably set some on fire every now and then, set up some freak accidents and watch with delight as they toil and trouble to please me by killing the ones that think I like red better than blue. Oh the ones that think I like green, they get really fucked by the two other groups. The best part, I like green and just prefer to watch them being assholes to each other for no apparent logical reason. Watch the little lego child pray to me at night and BAM, hit by a lego truck the next day and paralyzed from neck down. And they'd still call me loving, hah. Fools

If I really did build a lego world and they came to life, this is probably what I would actually do.

I see my misunderstandin, I thought you were another user.

In exchange, you can direct me to a creationist website of your choice and I will spend no less than 10 minutes looking at it.

No thanks.

No thanks.

That's cool, we can all benefit from some education, but wtv, I respect that.

I thought it would be interesting to bump this and see what happens, in light of some recent threads re-defining God.

I should probably do some serious editing of the original post, however.

Too bad I can't edit the title-- "both sides keep missing the point" would be more accurate, I think.

Well, some people just don't believe in anything supernatural. God is a bunch of vague concepts about creation, divinity, etc. but personified so we can identify with it. He's also supernatural, like ghosts, poltergeists, witches, wizards, cosmic zombie jews, and unicorns. So it's kind of a waste of time to create some world view based on something that won't answer your prayers. If I want my prayers answered, I get up off my ass and do it myself and I'm better off for it.

The God I know neither rewards nor punishes, does not judge or discriminate, but rather loves everyone and everything unconditionally.
No one of us is any better or any worse than any other



If "GOD/THE GREAT SPIRIT or whatever your term for it/him/her is doesn't punish people but loves everyone unconditionally. Then why are people born without sight,hearing,arms/legs/or with their insides on the outside?

All of the above sure would seem to be some kind of punishment to those it has happened to. Plus it has been said the "GOD" is all knowing and all seeing.

If that is true, then why does he continue to allow children to born to people who care nothing for these kids and physically and sexually abuse them? Why does he also allow people to be born that he knows will grow up to be killers/rapists/war mongers and basically people who only live to harm others for the thrill of it?

Shouldn't a "loving and caring" god give everyone in the beginning, by at least allowing them to start off with every thing fully functioning or being born to someone the will truly love and care for them, so they have the same chance at a normal life as everyone else?





Each one of us contains a god or goddess in embryo which is waiting to fully manifest as we attain unity consciousness, and learn to transcend fear and manifest total and unconditional love. This is, I think, what Jesus was getting at when he said "The kingdom of God is within you."



This "kind of" sounds like an excuse for god to not to take any responsiblity for anything that is wrong in the world, and leaves it all on us. One could interpret this to say, that since god is in each of us. That any problems you have in your life is soley your own fault.

If this is how it was truly meant, then I have to say that is really screwed up, as I pointed out above. There are people born into this world already facing really bad things either physically or mentally, That I'm pretty sure they didn't conjure up to happened to them while they were still in the womb.

If "GOD/THE GREAT SPIRIT or whatever your term for it/him/her is doesn't punish people but loves everyone unconditionally. Then why are people born without sight,hearing,arms/legs/or with their insides on the outside?

All of the above sure would seem to be some kind of punishment to those it has happened to. Plus it has been said the "GOD" is all knowing and all seeing.

If that is true, then why does he continue to allow children to born to people who care nothing for these kids and physically and sexually abuse them? Why does he also allow people to be born that he knows will grow up to be killers/rapists/war mongers and basically people who only live to harm others for the thrill of it?

.

The short answer to your last question is because we as a species choose for that to be so. At the personal level, we create our own personal reality; at the world level, we as a species create the larger, consensual reality.

Thing is, you are still thinking of God as a person, with human desires and limitations.

The short answer to your last question is because we as a species choose for that to be so. At the personal level, we create our own personal reality; at the world level, we as a species create the larger, consensual reality.

Thing is, you are still thinking of God as a person, with human desires and limitations.

I'm sorry Arms but I'm going to have to disagree with you further on this because it still doesn't make any sense. When I posted the above quote. I wasn't trying to attribute human emotions and limitations to the being/energy we think of as GOD.

When you think of an all powerful being/energy force creating a race of beings such as ourselves. You would think him/her/it would say ok. I'm going to give everyone a fair shake and start everyone out on an even foot at the starting gate, I.E: BIRTH.

Then everyone would be able to go out into the world with fully working faculties and free will to achieve whatever they can in their short life times.

This isn't the case though, as many people are born handicapped and aren't able to compete on the same playing field as someone born with everything working properly. Because of this, it is very easy to so how atheist's come to believe that there isn't a GOD at all. Instead there is random chaos from birth to death and then it's over for the individual.

This is why some many people question religion in general when it comes to stuff like this.

Because of this, it is very easy to so how atheist's come to believe that there isn't a GOD at all. Instead there is random chaos from birth to death and then it's over for the individual.

Who's to say random chaos is unlike God?

Who says God should not create certain types of existence?

Respect all faiths and lack thereof.


Why?!? An unsupported belief, ie faith, can be completely irrational, ridiculous, and harmful. Standing for such stupidity and validating it with 'respect' is just bringing down all of mankind. We might as well give up striving for high aspirations and settle into mediocrity :/

Why?!? An unsupported belief, ie faith, can be completely irrational, ridiculous, and harmful. Standing for such stupidity and validating it with 'respect' is just bringing down all of mankind. We might as well give up striving for high aspirations and settle into mediocrity :/

Well so is assuming a belief or faith is wrong can also be completely irrational, ridiculous, and harmful.

Why?!? An unsupported belief, ie faith, can be completely irrational, ridiculous, and harmful. Standing for such stupidity and validating it with 'respect' is just bringing down all of mankind. We might as well give up striving for high aspirations and settle into mediocrity :/

Just because you respect something does not mean that you are standing up for it. I always thought you could show respect by being indifferent. Thinking that some people with different views is bringing down mankind is like the same mistake made by religious people.

;10482953']Just because you respect something does not mean that you are standing up for it. I always thought you could show respect by being indifferent. Thinking that some people with different views is bringing down mankind is like the same mistake made by religious people.

Respect is implicit support.

I always thought of respect as "thinking the thing in question is valid and acknowledging its worth". I refuse to do that for theism. Theism is unethical and inhuman.

Respect is implicit support.

I always thought of respect as "thinking the thing in question is valid and acknowledging its worth". I refuse to do that for theism. Theism is unethical and inhuman.

so your saying that you should fight theism and all the people who choose to just ignore it are actually supporting it? I guess in a way you would be indirectly supporting it by allowing it to spread freely. But that is like saying that people who just sit at home doing nothing are responsible for disasters because they did nothing to prevent them.

;10483101']so your saying that you should fight theism and all the people who choose to just ignore it are actually supporting it? I guess in a way you would be indirectly supporting it by allowing it to spread freely. But that is like saying that people who just sit at home doing nothing are responsible for disasters because they did nothing to prevent them.

Well, the people that ignore it are indirectly supporting it, just like you said. But I think there's a distinction between that and watching some disaster unfold on TV.

One involves nothing but words and ideas. The other is something that can't be stopped by anyone (the disaster in my mind is a tsunami: I suppose if the disaster is something human-caused, there's a difference, but not much for most people) and can only be helped after the fact by the people with the resources to.

It's a lot easier to talk than it is to take a plane to some remote place and go help clean up. As such, I expect more people to do it.

Well so is assuming a belief or faith is wrong can also be completely irrational, ridiculous, and harmful.

Well that's why we shouldn't assume. It's as bad as faith.

;10482953']Just because you respect something does not mean that you are standing up for it. I always thought you could show respect by being indifferent. Thinking that some people with different views is bringing down mankind is like the same mistake made by religious people.

I don't care to stand up, nor respect harmful, irrational beliefs. As for your last sentence, I think it must be misworded because it doesn't make sense.

You know what? As soon as people start telling others "facts" about "god", they're wrong. Bam, instant fail, regardless of which "god" they're talking about. :rolleyes:

Respect is implicit support.

I always thought of respect as "thinking the thing in question is valid and acknowledging its worth". I refuse to do that for theism. Theism is unethical and inhuman.


To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.

The above definition of "respect" is from answers.com. I think it fits vis a vis respect for another's religion.

Who's to say random chaos is unlike God?

Who says God should not create certain types of existence?

God can certainly do whatever he/she/it wants. I'm merely pointing out that not everyone is given the same chance from birth as others, and many have felt that they are being punished and they don't know why. This makes many people question their faith as to whether or not there is a god like being to begin with.

To require evidence before belief is not wrong.

To assert, without evidence, IS wrong.

--------

This is the fundamental difference between atheists and theists.

How many of you do not believe in Unicorns?

If someone who did believe in Unicorns suggested to you, you were somehow wrong in your assertion Unicorns are not real, how many of you would accept that?

To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.

The above definition of "respect" is from answers.com. I think it fits vis a vis respect for another's religion.

Respect is a widely-used word with a wide array of meanings, nearly all of which you're ignoring.

Source: Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/respect)
Noun:
1. a particular, detail, or point (usually prec. by in): to differ in some respect.
2. relation or reference: inquiries with respect to a route.
3. esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: I have great respect for her judgment.
4. deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: respect for a suspect's right to counsel; to show respect for the flag; respect for the elderly.
5. the condition of being esteemed or honored: to be held in respect.
6. respects, a formal expression or gesture of greeting, esteem, or friendship: Give my respects to your parents.
7. favor or partiality.
8. Archaic. a consideration.
Verb:
9. to hold in esteem or honor: I cannot respect a cheat.
10. to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone's rights.
11. to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person's privacy.
12. to relate or have reference to.

I have bolded those that support my point, and I notice your definition is not in that list.

So your list is incomplete.

In English, words can have many meanings--granted, it can be confusing when John uses definition 12 and Mary is used to using definition 17, but that's life.

Tell you what--give me a word that is more accurate than "respect" , in the context of the definition I cited, and I'll use it.

BTW--we are getting WAY off topic here. Don't make me move this to Cunning Linguists.

Don't make me move this to Cunning Linguists.

Trying to figure out accepted defintions by both parties is needed in any debate about anything at some point.

Your threat is hollow.

Don't make me move this to Cunning Linguists.

You'd move your own thread about God to the Linguistics forum?

Look at the name. A. Theism. Without god or deities. NOt without the christian god or the islamic god, not without one set idea or another, without all of them. Equally, omnisciently, finally.


Yes, this. This is why I have to tell people that I'm "not religious", because idiots think atheists = anti christ.

Yes, this. This is why I have to tell people that I'm "not religious", because idiots think atheists = anti christ.

No, tell them you're an atheist. Let them think you're the antichrist. If they try to tell you you are, then explain why they're wrong. They probably won't understand, being idiot theists, but you can give it a shot.

"Not religious" implies to them "not going to church", but carries the tacit belief that there is a god, they're right, etc. Tell them that you know there isn't a god. It'll fuck with their world-view and hopefully make them realize how much of an idiot they are faster.