There has been an aspect of Christianity that has been troubling me for many months now, and I thought I'd open this thread up for discussion and debate. I'm pretty much a life long searcher of ALL religions, and do believe in some form of loving Creator with the hopes of an afterlife. Forgive me if this gets long, but I really want to get my point across.....

Most Christians believe that as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and at the very least attempt to live your life in a good manner.....there is hope that paradise, heaven, whatever you want to believe awaits you once your dead. But for the vast majority of them, it is 100% FAITH that is backing that belief. Sure there are SOME that claim to have "seen" God in some form, or that they actually "heard him talking to them". For whatever reason these people are lucky enough to encounter this being, and have what I would consider enough evidence to back their lifelong spiritual belief.

But for everyone else, its more or less just faith. A hope. A belief in a promise that they have read, or someone has told them. And this is where I will always fall short to have 100% devotion to ANY god. I have a very thinking and analytical mind, one that is not going to spend the rest of my days devoting my belief system (and perhaps committing my eternal soul) to something where there is even the smallest amount of doubt....i.e...."well it could have been this OR that". Yeah, the Christian Bible has a lot of great ideas coupled with many incredible prophecies....but the point is, in 2007 we are NEVER given irrefutable proof beyond Biblical teachings that Jesus truly is the way.

What I'm trying to get at is something so incredibly profound, that it would be a miracle that would have absolutely no skeptics. Parting the Red Seas. Water into wine. Flipping Mt. Everest upside down. Something. ANYTHING! Now people may come back to me discussing minor shit.....like a newborn baby, a guy flipping his SUV down a cliff 20 times and surviving without a scratch, taking a Pringle out of the can and it has the absolute resemblance of Jesus...etc. But those are just silly parlor tricks (and arguable) compared to some of the miracles described in the Bible.

So here is where my questions really manifests. Lets assume for a moment in a hypothetical scenario that Christianity IS the true religion and Jesus really is our savior. Is it "fair" for us mere mortals living in 2007 to be put under such scrutiny (questioning our faith, and having 100% devotion) without having ANY empirical evidence for our beliefs? My whole point is, we actually have it HARDER than folks seeking religion in biblical times because of the lack of miracles. Not to mention with all the technology and evil surrounding us, we have even more opportunities for temptations and a helluva lot more "gray" areas than ever before.

Think about the folks that were there at the time Moses parted the Red Sea. After witnessing such an astounding event is there ANYONE that could walk away and NOT believe in god? That would be such a profound event, that no matter how many hardships those people endured they would still have that memory......thusly having that 100% faith with perfect reason and understanding for the rest of their lives. Even if someone was not there, they still would be able to intermingle with many other folks that could testify to it happening. And the next couple of generations would STILL be exposed to that miracle, hearing the stories told by fathers and grandfathers......"yup sonny, I was there and it happened".

Fast forward to 2007 and hundreds upon hundreds of generations have passed. Add to the fact the Bible HAS been rewritten over and over with certain adaptations (both purposeful and accidental) and now that whole episode of the Red Sea is no longer an "absolute". All of the current Christians are now going ONLY on faith, and people such as myself are forever longing for some supernatural event to put their devotion into.

So it seems to me if there is any kind of prerequisite to get into heaven, those that lived 2000+ years ago had it much EASIER to have complete faith than the current populace. I can't comprehend the fairness in that. If a loving God really wanted ALL of his subjects to enjoy heaven/paradise shouldn't we be given the same "evidence" that those lucky enough to be around in biblical times were able to witness. Furthermore, its not like we are even engaging this "battle" on an equal playing field. There are countless examples in the Bible where God had his hand in doing this or that to help his followers, yet in 2007 we seem to be left out in the cold fending for ourselves. (And before anyone starts quoting Revelation to me, I know it very well and understand the supposed "purpose" to letting us fly solo)

I for one just don't understand how God created me to have this above average intelligence to think, analyze and question......yet if I dropped over dead an hour from now, I would not receive the eternal blessings I would have gotten if I had 100% faith. All because I haven't been privy enough to witness an elaborate miracle, or have God "talk" to me, or "show me the way". (And yes I've prayed and prayed for God to give me some inkling, some message, some profound purpose to remove all of my doubts) Yet the guy 2000 years ago with 100% devotion, that has 1/2 the brain I do, along with doing only a fraction of the good works that I accomplished in my life......gets eternal paradise all because he was fortunate enough to see a REAL miracle and remove any doubts from his mind?????? Again, from where I'm sitting that is NOT fair in the least.....and I can't comprehend how myself and that person from biblical times should be held accountable equally since after all we were "tested" differently in our lifetimes.

Thoughts, comments, flames?

I agree with you. This is why I don't fear judgment from any God when I die. I don't think it's my fault that I don't believe since he knew how much evidence it would require when he made my brain. I don't see how a logical thinking person can be expected by a deity to believe with blind faith. If he really wants me to, he seems to be doing a good job of not tempting me with any evidence.

I agree with you. This is why I don't fear judgment from any God when I die. I don't think it's my fault that I don't believe since he knew how much evidence it would require when he made my brain. I don't see how a logical thinking person can be expected by a deity to believe with blind faith. If he really wants me to, he seems to be doing a good job of not tempting me with any evidence.

read my religion post...im sure you'll agree with it...maybe not the angels part, only thing i can see people having a problem with...but on the major picture, about god, what i wrote about him and our afterlife. read about that section. and maybe it'll help you understand more things?
your right, i dont believe God would punish you, but i think its foolish to doubt *his exsistence and he may frown upon you, but he loves you, and i'm sure he would show you and explain, and you would know everything that was actually "correct" about religion and what not since he's such a loving and forgiving God.

God wouldn't judge you any different being a non believer, than compared to a murderer, a rapiest, or a hardcore jew, muslim, or christian, we're all equal in his eyes and are loved all the same and will treat us all the same. i say just believe as i believe and relax and just follow what jesus said and be nice to your neighbor, and everything will be cool.

I think it's interesting that people often assume that if God exists, he would be a larger version of themselves.

i didnt read it to long but i can answer the question

then (i'm presuming, when youd be considered a retard if you didnt believe in a god and a few years before Darwins mom was assbashed)- i say it would be way easier for the fact that you didnt know anything else and everyone accepted it as fact!

Now- i think it would be harder for someone to accept it but once acepted if you were intelegent then it would be easier to keep your faith even when phased with a question that gets you doubting. this would be because of all the prophecies that have been fullfilled and other scientific discoveries science has found that was acurate in the bible (ex. the earth is round and that we float in space), which can help us to reasure ourselves.

I think it's interesting that people often assume that if God exists, he would be a larger version of themselves.

Where exactly did you get THAT from my post?

HUH??????

i didnt read it to long but i can answer the question

then (i'm presuming, when youd be considered a retard if you didnt believe in a god and a few years before Darwins mom was assbashed)- i say it would be way easier for the fact that you didnt know anything else and everyone accepted it as fact!

Now- i think it would be harder for someone to accept it but once acepted if you were intelegent then it would be easier to keep your faith even when phased with a question that gets you doubting. this would be because of all the prophecies that have been fullfilled and other scientific discoveries science has found that was acurate in the bible (ex. the earth is round and that we float in space), which can help us to reasure ourselves.

The part you missed was my discussing miracles. To summarize, I'm saying that folks 2000+ years ago were able to have a stronger faith based on actually witnessing major miracles (like the parting of the Red Sea) which would leave pretty much no room for doubt in their faith.

Whereas today we are not privy to such things, since we are just going on faith and faith alone without any legitimate empirical evidence. Thusly, an analytical and thinking mind in 2007 would have more reason to be a skeptic than in biblical times.....and perhaps their soul isn't playing on an equal playing field as compared to those that were witness to such incredible events.

The part you missed was my discussing miracles. To summarize, I'm saying that folks 2000+ years ago were able to have a stronger faith based on actually witnessing major miracles (like the parting of the Red Sea) which would leave pretty much no room for doubt in their faith.

Whereas today we are not privy to such things, since we are just going on faith and faith alone without any legitimate empirical evidence. Thusly, an analytical and thinking mind in 2007 would have more reason to be a skeptic than in biblical times.....and perhaps their soul isn't playing on an equal playing field as compared to those that were witness to such incredible events.

personally, i think God does still "talk" to us, we just choose to ignore him more or less, he may not "talk" to us in the old biblical way in the old testiment and what not, but he gets his point across if you listen. and seriously, he has given us everything we need to believe, people just choose not to for some reason? i believe ignorance and arrogance, and they like to themselves as the best, and not have a higher figure than humans, idky people think like that? but they do..so...

personally, i think God does still "talk" to us, we just choose to ignore him more or less, he may not "talk" to us in the old biblical way in the old testiment and what not, but he gets his point across if you listen. and seriously, he has given us everything we need to believe, people just choose not to for some reason? i believe ignorance and arrogance, and they like to themselves as the best, and not have a higher figure than humans, idky people think like that? but they do..so...


That's just it though, I'm neither arrogant or ignorant about any of this. I have spent much time studying several religions in my humble quest of God. This is something I take quite seriously, and sincerely want to have 100% faith with complete abandon. But I'm not going to make a lifetime/eternal commitment to something without all of the facts.....not just stuff left up to interpretation. Like your vague description of "he gets his point across if you listen".

Let me give you an analogy to try and further my point. I made the choice to marry my wife and give her complete and utter devotion. That does not waiver, and she has my utmost loyalty. I wake up thinking about her, and go to bed dreaming about her. What I am looking for is THAT kind of devotion to have for a god.

The entire reason I have such deep feelings for my wife is because of the things that I personally witnessed while being with her. I observed firsthand her kindness, compassion, honesty, humor and all of her other positive traits. When I saw how selfless and passionate she is towards other people, that was based on watching her ACTIONS. Not someone describing those actions to me. Or something that COULD be interpretted as wonderful traits. Or just hearing about how great this gal was from someone else, and then making the decision to forever dedicate myself to be by her side without actually seeing it for myself.

And that is my whole point. If a superior entity really expects absolute devotion like I just described.....why can't today's generation be given something completely irrefutable? Something so profound there is no other possible explanation other than it came from the heavens. The people of biblical times were blessed with multiple instances of divine miracles leaving them with zero doubts, why not us? And since we are not privy to such things, how/why should we be held accountable for our skepticism?

That's just it though, I'm neither arrogant or ignorant about any of this. I have spent much time studying several religions in my humble quest of God. This is something I take quite seriously, and sincerely want to have 100% faith with complete abandon. But I'm not going to make a lifetime/eternal commitment to something without all of the facts.....not just stuff left up to interpretation. Like your vague description of "he gets his point across if you listen".

Let me give you an analogy to try and further my point. I made the choice to marry my wife and give her complete and utter devotion. That does not waiver, and she has my utmost loyalty. I wake up thinking about her, and go to bed dreaming about her. What I am looking for is THAT kind of devotion to have for a god.

The entire reason I have such deep feelings for my wife is because of the things that I personally witnessed while being with her. I observed firsthand her kindness, compassion, honesty, humor and all of her other positive traits. When I saw how selfless and passionate she is towards other people, that was based on watching her ACTIONS. Not someone describing those actions to me. Or something that COULD be interpretted as wonderful traits. Or just hearing about how great this gal was from someone else, and then making the decision to forever dedicate myself to be by her side without actually seeing it for myself.

And that is my whole point. If a superior entity really expects absolute devotion like I just described.....why can't today's generation be given something completely irrefutable? Something so profound there is no other possible explanation other than it came from the heavens. The people of biblical times were blessed with multiple instances of divine miracles leaving them with zero doubts, why not us? And since we are not privy to such things, how/why should we be held accountable for our skepticism?



we wont be punsished, for you last part, being held accountable...read my my religion post seriously, itll kind of wake you up, i would like to say?

For those of you that think God's son Jesus Christ died for you to go out and smoke crack and kill people, you are dead wrong. So many religions have the misconception that sin will allow you to be brought to the gate of heaven. This idea that most southern baptists, methodists, well- not going to mention them all but the baptists and all branching directly from catohlicism hold. The idea that as long as you recognize Jesus Christ as your savior, that he died for us by grace. The idea that as long as Jesus Christ died for us that you can do whatever you want and end up in heaven. That is a load of crap. If you are made self-aware of Jesus Christ and the laws he maintains then break them knowingly and never repent. You will go to hell. Its not a matter of, "well he died as a matter of Grace, no matter what I do, no matter how bad I get he will allow me to enter his kingdom". If anyone thinks so read the old testament of any bible. Heck, read the new testament. We all are sinners. WE ALL ARE GUILTY. Anyone says otherwise is either full of it or is the second coming of christ.



GOD never left me, I left god. By the grace of God I am alive today, despite my actions.

Yea, it is fair. Even the earliest Christians had absolutely ZERO evidence Christ even existed. We are just as bad off today.